Pat provided a link on the other forum about the Jewish view of The Satan. A very interesting point was made. In that page, the idea that Satan is not God's opponent, but a helper, would settle well in man's perception of having only one Deity. If Satan is God's opponent, man would struggle in a Polytheistic world. Of course, The Trinity in a sense is polytheistic, if we get extremely confused with the technicalities.

So, The Satan is one of God's helpers?

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 10, 2005

Answers

At least, we still observe that Satan does exist.

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 10, 2005.

i don't think he really exists...

what are/is his creation(s) that could prove his existance?

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), February 10, 2005.

Creations?

I'm not sure that we could call them "creations". But, consider the following:

chaos
confusion
evil
deceit
possession
Just to name a few...

Do you believe that man is the root of his evilness? Could this then make man Satan? If you do not believe in Satan, then explain.

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 10, 2005.

We've had some evil crimes committed down here in years passed. One spring-breaker was tortured and mutiliated in a Satanic Ritual. A married couple beheaded their three children. They claimed that the voices told them to kill their children. That trial is still working at the verdict.

What is the source of such evil? Is it strictly man?

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 10, 2005.

A dear Pentecostal friend once made it clear to me that a person who does not believe that Satan exists has himself firmly planted in Satan's grasp. So, why would Satan cause anymore frustrations for one who needs no further damnation, the fool is already lost?

Of course, don't take it personal SDQA. I'm just telling you what my friend told me.

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 10, 2005.

Well said, Rod!

sdqa, actually, you are the perfect proof of Satan's existence. Someone who rejects God's authority. Someone who embraces anarchy - which is the spirit of the anti-Christ. And someone who doesn't believe in Satan. As Rod said, Satan has you exactly where he wants you, trapped in his web but totally unaware of his own fate, and rejecting the efforts of those who are trying to help him.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), February 10, 2005.

Do you believe that man is the root of his evilness? Could this then make man Satan? If you do not believe in Satan, then explain.

[yes,man is the root of all evil...evil is just a deviation from good...men make chaos,confusion,deceit,murder...not satan...it's their choise not satan's...well you may say that satan gives them such ideas but the ideas are just the possibilities for which one must choose between in certain situations...if i see some poor hungry man on the street...i can give him money or i don't...if i want to be rich...i can work hard or become a politician if my daddy was a powerfull man...etc...it's easy to put the blame on someone else...the people are 'the satan'...the ones who choose for evil...]-sdqa

"sdqa, actually, you are the perfect proof of Satan's existence. Someone who rejects God's authority. Someone who embraces anarchy - which is the spirit of the anti-Christ. And someone who doesn't believe in Satan. As Rod said, Satan has you exactly where he wants you, trapped in his web but totally unaware of his own fate, and rejecting the efforts of those who are trying to help him."

[1/i don't reject god's authority...i just don't believe in manmade gods...

2/do you even know what anarchy means? don't go telling me now that it's chaos because it isn't...learn first something about it and then give your comment...as far as i know the antichrist is going to be the one and only ruler of this world to which authority all people should submit...or...they get ****** ,isn't globalisation heading towards 'one leader'?...isn't the usa heading towards this also with their military power and economic domination...does 'one leader' have to be officially one leader? he can control all and still be the leader of only one country while the others are only fictive leaders...

anarchy is completely against all this!

it is against any form of authority in a hierarchal way and against hierarchy(this all among men,not god)

anarchy means no ruler...don't get this wrong that without rulers there will be chaos...there is always a need for rules to make freedom possible and off course someone has to see if everyone keeps the rules

there is no real freedom when there is no equality and there is no equality when some people have the right to have more power than others

it's against rulers as we know them today...who have the right to take a country to war if they want...who have the right to command the people in their own country while they should actually be representing them etc...

anarchy is against this evil exploiting capitalistic system and for equality in any way between people

anarchy is against this fictive democracy we have...the politicians make up their programs between which we must choose...so they have already chosen things between which we have to choose...not much left to choose for us anymore i guess...and often they don't even keep their own programs...

anarchy is for a world where everyone has the possibility to have a happy life...to have a happy life we need freedom...there is no freedom without equality...there is no equality in a hierarchal society...

isn't this all totally the opposite from the antichrist who shall control everyone and everything...who will have power over all people...who will be the one and only ruler of the world...who will take the people's freedom away...and make them his slaves]-sdqa

ps:i do believe in satan...but in a human form

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), February 10, 2005.

I agree with sdqa.

Evil in this world is not created by Satan.

Neither is Satan the God of this World as most Christians or Gnostics think .

Yahweh is the God of this world.

Satan is the prosecutor. He is the accuser angel before God.

Evil comes from our human desires.

Period.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), February 10, 2005.

Human nature is indeed evil, insomuch as it is fallen and not holy as God requires.

Satan is an angelic being who held a high rank in Heaven as an Arch- angel. He rebelled against God wanting to be worshipped as God is and he influenced a third of all angels to rebel with him. He engaged God's angels in a great battle with the Arch-angel Michael leading God's angellic warriors in a victory which defeated Satan and cast him to the earth. God gave authority to Satan over the earth which is why Jesus referred to Satan as the "prince of this world" and the "ruler of this world".

This is not my opinion, but directly from scripture, so it was Jesus' understanding as well.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), February 10, 2005.

Actually, it was David's comment, not rod's:

"As [David] said, [']Satan has you exactly where he wants you, trapped in his web but totally unaware of his own fate, and rejecting the efforts of those who are trying to help him.[']" -- SDQA.

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 10, 2005.

I do not believe that man is "evil", but they do perform evil behaviors. They can become possesed by demons. But, the soul is Salvagable until a certain point. That evilness in man is sin.

Satan can lead man into sin and we all know that sin leads to death.

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 10, 2005.

God created man in His image. To me, it means that we were designed not to be evil, but to have a free will. Free will is neither evil or good. That choice becomes ours. If we are not accepting of God, we are then against Him.

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 10, 2005.

"I do not believe that man is "evil", but they do perform evil behaviors. They can become possesed by demons. But, the soul is Salvagable until a certain point. That evilness in man is sin.

Satan can lead man into sin and we all know that sin leads to death."

[i don't believe anyone can be 'possesed' by demons,i believe in free will...and there are off course mental diseases...but no demons...the evilness of men are choosing for bad things...you identify bad things as sin...for me some things that are sins aren't bad...and some things that are bad aren't sins...]-sdqa

"God created man in His image. To me, it means that we were designed not to be evil, but to have a free will. Free will is neither evil or good. That choice becomes ours. If we are not accepting of God, we are then against Him."

[correct...but you think that satan brings up the evil things up in our minds right? i don't think that there is a need for a satan if already good and evil are in front of us and we must choose...you can say now that the evil things come from satan...but if we already have a choise of doing something good...then we also have a choise of doing something opposite from it...evil is just an opposition to good...from the first moment on when we had a choise to do something good,we immediately had a choise of doing something opposite from it...something bad]-sdqa

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), February 10, 2005.

SDQA

Well, then. How do you know the difference between good and evil? How would you know which choice is good or evil? What is your source?

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 10, 2005.

Thank you for starting this new thread, Rod, and getting to the heart of the matter (although people seemed to have missed the point and started talking about the nature of Satan...)

The question in my mind is WHO created 'evil'?

Some people suggest it was Satan/The Devil that created evil, that God is pure goodness and therefore couldn't have created evil. So does that mean that God made a mistake when he created Satan/The Devil? I understand that however things were created, that a human is capable of good and evil now, sure, but if God didn't CREATE evil, then who was as powerful as God to do so?!

I re-read the Book of Genesis Chapter 1, and I agree that it is not clear where the darkness that covered the earth came from... was it part of "heaven and earth" that God created? Or already there? Certainly "God divided the light from the darkness", but why at that point didn't He replace the darkness with light? Of course I don't for a second mean to question His choice (!!!), I mean He decided to leave the dark and contrast it with light. His decision, and His alone.

As an aside, I've found another good quote to support my description (in the other thread) of the Jewish view -- but we can continue to discuss it, of course:

For Judaism is so strictly monotheistic that it resisted the temptation to enthrone any being other than God with authority far a whole metaphysical realm, even the realm of evil. Thus the Rabbis insisted that God is the Creator of both good (and in some way that we do not understand) evil, and that all that exists had its origin in God, and no one else.

(pg 120 What is a Jew by Rabbi Morris N. Kertzer, revised by Rabbi Lawrence A. Hoffman 1993)

Do you believe (1) there is a force strong enough to create evil and (2) believe there is only one God? By definition this other force would be 'a god'? Does Rod answer this question when he says "Of course, The Trinity in a sense is polytheistic, if we get extremely confused with the technicalities."

-- Pat Thompson (pat.thompson.45@gmail.com), February 10, 2005.

It is very late and passed my bedtime, so I'll post this until I can give a better reply:

I will need to go back and study Abraham's test and Job's predicament in order to make a clearer understanding of God's will. Evidently, God allows for Isaac to be faced with, what I would call, an evil act of death. Job is down right toyed by Satan himself with God's permission. I can see how the Jewish view would perceive Satan as a "helper". In both cases, a resolve is accepted by both events. Hmm.

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 10, 2005.

"SDQA

Well, then. How do you know the difference between good and evil? How would you know which choice is good or evil? What is your source?"

[when other ppl are involved...i already explained you...my freedom reaches to their freedom...i can do everything i want if i don't cause harm to others with it...

but about my own descisions...well mostly based on how the things are gonna end,if i help myself or someone with it...or not,how i feel about it,what i think is the right thing to do...etc

the source?

my mind...my feelings...pure logic...]-sdqa

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), February 11, 2005.

Pure logic?

Do you buy food, clothes, toys, medicine, gasoline, or indulge in vices? Do you live the "American" lifestyle? Do you think that your existence may, in some way, oppress another group, just by your existence? You seem to be into Anarchism, which is against oppression, yet I sense that oppression is a fact of life, whether that oppression is deliberate or incidental. Or, perhaps people have their heads stuck in the sand. How many have died for your freedoms? Some have had to pay the ultimate price for our freedoms.

We all seem to want cheap prices for the things we want. I read an article about a popular retail store that owned or hired "sweat shops" to get the needed merchandise. Practically, those over-seas providers hold their workers as slaves, just for the almighty dollar? So,it would seem that most would prefer to remain ignorant of other people's suffering. Why rock the boat? And, let's not forget the immigrant problem. I've seen the exploitation of undocumented workers in our American society. I guess somebody has to do those back breaking jobs. And, why? So that we can keep our lifestyles in the comfort zone. How about that Super Bowl?! How much money was generated that could have been used for social needs? The drug companies could workout the problems with high prices. Insurance companies are calling the shots in health care. Yet, we buy into those monsters. Why not? Are heads are buried deep in the sands. We don't want to know about the suffering and injustices. It doesn't "feel good".

Well, anyway....

You sense what is right or wrong. In other words, you base it on what feels good. I keep hearing the word "Plecebo" in my mind.

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 11, 2005.

no it isn't based on what 'feels' good...i was talking about certain descisions in my life that could turn out good or bad...about good and evil between people,i think i already made myself clear...

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), February 11, 2005.

SDQA

Can you think of any situation that puts you in an oppresive condition towards others? That being a condition inwhich your views reign supreme over others and would require their views to be suppressed or eradicated? Be very clear with your answer.

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 11, 2005.

I think "evil" was not specifically created anymore than "good" was created. Both are descriptors that are used to first characterize the intent of someone's will and since the inner intent of a person is so closely tied to who that person is, the word is extended, perhaps incorrectly, to the person itself.

"Good" means to intend to do what is right, holy, to help and prosper, to be kind. "Evil" means to intend to do what is wrong, sinful, to harm or hurt.

"Evil" is simply a degree of "badness", just as "holy" is a degree of "goodness".

Primarily, the terms are used to describe behavior, but when an individual has demonstrated a continual degree of either good or bad, the term is often applied to the person directly.

Someone who commits a murder is said to have done something evil. Hitler was said to be evil because he orchestrated genocide. Someone who helps other people is said to have done something good. Saints are said to be holy because they did things exceedingly and sacrificially good for most of their lives.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), February 11, 2005.

One more point. Good and evil were not created, they describe the nature of how we handle God's gift of free will. God created the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden. When Eve and Adam disobeyed God and tasted of the fruit from that tree, they exercised the free will God gave them to disobey. Tasting the fruit simply made them aware (gave them the knowedge) of their rebellion from God - tasting the fruit made them aware of the evil choice they made.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), February 11, 2005.

I tend to share the same views as you, David. I believe in free will.

But, let's look at Job and his problems with Satan and God. What behavior did Job exhibit to warrant Satan's little game? Job was righteous in the eys of God. How does Satan fit into or out of the Jewish view that Satan is God's little helper? Free will was still part of the equation. Perhaps that is the lesson about Job. We have a choice to continue to accept God or to deny Him in good or bad times of our lives. Yes, free will is the catalyst for good or evil.

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 11, 2005.

Temptations are tests of our obedience to God, tests of our free will. Afterall, the will isn't free until it has a choice to disobey, right? God does not tempt - scripture is clear on that. But God allows Satan and our own human nature to tempt us so that our free will is exercised. The more we choose to obey God and deny those temptations, the stronger our spirit becomes and the more we die to our sin nature. So God allows temptation as a means to strengthen ourselves and our bond to Him. He knew Job would pass the test and would come out, not only stronger, but with a testimony worthy of being talked about 6,000 years later - like we are now.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), February 11, 2005.

This is puzzling that God knew the outcome, yet allowed Satan the frivolity of tormenting Job. Was Satan that ignorant? Evidently, Satan was or he would never have started in on Job. We can then conclude that Satan too believes in free will. He would not have tormented Job had Satan not gambled on free will. But, all of this seems to fit well with the Jewish concept of Satan as a "helper", which kind of fits the Christian concept. But, Satan is not a compatriot; Satan is the enemy.

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 11, 2005.

Interesting return of dialogue, SDQA:

I'll post everything but the last few characters.

http://greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00B---

Quiet whispers yield to pleasant gestures, I suppose.

...........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 11, 2005.

Can you think of any situation that puts you in an oppresive condition towards others? That being a condition inwhich your views reign supreme over others and would require their views to be suppressed or eradicated? Be very clear with your answer.

[i can...sometimes you have to fight fire with fire...how do you mean...my views suppresing someone other's? ...explain rod...]-sdqa

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), February 11, 2005.

Are you still looking for ways to get rid of the Fundamentalist view? Why not just ignore it? Why put yourself in a position of being oppressive towards views that you do not share?

The URL I provided shows that you are actually going against your own Anarchism.

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 11, 2005.

"Are you still looking for ways to get rid of the Fundamentalist view? Why not just ignore it? Why put yourself in a position of being oppressive towards views that you do not share?

The URL I provided shows that you are actually going against your own Anarchism."

[first of all,being oppressive towards fundamentalists is pretty much the same thing as being opressive towards politicians...if religious fundamentalism stays in the way to make anarchy possible than anarchy is against religious fundamentalism...simple as that

ok now to the real thing

fundamentalists ***** this world up even more,look at the islam for example in the arab countries and israel...it has ****** them up completely,it's a tool of the politicians and has actually nothing to do with god or i don't know what else

how can you convince any fundamentalist in anarchy if he doesn't even think with his own head but lets his ****** religion think instead?]-sdqa

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), February 11, 2005.

We can ignore Fundamentalism all day long, but once it becomes Terrorism, then we can talk about getting rid of it. America has Fundamentalism, but they don't go around terrorizing the neighborhood.

.....................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 11, 2005.

So rod and David, it sounds to me like both of you agree that God is ultimately 'responsible for' or 'created' the evil that is in the world? Not Satan/The Devil?

-- Pat Thompson (pat.thompson.45@gmail.com), February 12, 2005.

rod - funny how I may be less comfortable talking to an American about the US impact on the rest of the world (if I may assume you are from the U.S.A.) as a Canadian, than I am about talking about religion as a Jew on a Catholic forum, but were you saying the following tongue in cheek?

• America has Fundamentalism, but they don't go around terrorizing the neighborhood.

I have to quote from a February 2004 CBS News report (a bit out of date, and probably off by a few billion now... but a good general summary of my point):

• The proposed military budget, which goes to Congress to decide its fate, rings in at $401.7 billion. According to figures from the nonprofit Center for Defense Information, that will make U.S. military spending greater than the combined total of the next 21 biggest spenders, including Russia, Britain, China and France.

-- Pat Thompson (pat.thompson.45@gmail.com), February 12, 2005.

That did sound rather ironic.

The U.S. generally is the "clean-up crew". It takes people to sacrifice themselves in order to put a stop to terrorism. If it takes 400 billion $ to maintain a defense against terrorism, that isn't enough. We should triple it. If that's what it takes to get rid of the threat of terrorism, let's do it. But, I think we all know that money can't buy happiness. What is the solution? Let them have their way and blow themselves up at our front porch? Uh uh. That is suicide.

Yes, I'm an American.

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 12, 2005.

Our situation with Iraq/Arabia started as a result of our engagement in WWII. Roosevelt worked out a deal with the Arabs for purchasing oil in order to sustain our military efforts. They provided the oil, we provided their protection. The American error, as usual, is that we have this short-sided view of things. Here we have a giant and powerful nation falling under the thumb of a small weak nation. It happens time and time again. Why? The perfect oppurtunity slipped by. America should have simply dominated the Saudis--complete take over. Today, when America "invaded" Iraq, some U.S. tank commander was told to remove the American flag from atop his tank. Error! American human lives paid for that invasion. How are wars fought? They are upside down.

Well, those Fundamentalist didn't like American presence. Here have terrorism to save their day.

Americans invade a nation and then pay them money back for having invaded. Upside down. America should invade and conquer or just leave people alone. She should close her eys when foreign nation get bent on killing their innocent people.

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 12, 2005.

Pat,

Please don't misrepresent what I said. I never said God created evil. Evil is not a created thing. Please re-read my posts to discern what I really said.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), February 13, 2005.

David, I see what you mean, yes. I assume the heart of what you said is:

"Good and evil were not created, they describe the nature of how we handle God's gift of free will"

I agree with this statement, and think it answers the (overly simplistic) question I asked, of "WHO created 'evil'?" -- perhaps a better wording would have been "WHO is ultimately responsible for the fact that humans are capable of evil?"

I see it as being the opposite of people who feel "If [God] created evil He wouldn't be perfect." or even better "God didn't MAKE death" in the original thread at The Catholic forum here. Both quotes are from eugene c. chavez

-- Pat Thompson (pat.thompson.45@gmail.com), February 13, 2005.

Thanks Pat. "Yes", that's the heart of my point. And I agree with your reworded statement. "Good" can not truly be "good" without the possibility of "evil". Obedience and love are are only meaningful if the possibility of disobedience and not loving are possible.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), February 13, 2005.