We need to pray for the Iraqi people as they head towards the polls to vote this weekend. Pray for their safety and pray for the Lord's grace upon us all. Only He holds the solution to the situation to which the Iraqi and American people find themselves.

-- Anonymous, January 28, 2005

Answers

AMEN

-- Anonymous, January 28, 2005

The elections were largely safe and successful. PTL! Now on to freedom for the Iraqis, and victory for us! I truly believe God is on our side.

-- Anonymous, January 31, 2005

RP

"I truly believe God is on our side."

I'm interested in hearing why you have that belief. While God certainly had a relationship with Israel as a community, I am not certain that He has a covenental relationship with any current political entities (including religious denominations), but instead relates to individuals.

-- Anonymous, January 31, 2005

Simple Rev Cager! Look at the potential for good here. A nation that can enjoy freedom, including freedom of religion. Why did you know many souls are being saved in Iraq now that missionaries are able to operate more freely? You won't hear that on CNN, but it's true. My own denomination is doing a lot in Iraq. Is the AMEC taking advantage of the open door as well? I hope so.

But I digress. Next, the Iraqis won't be causing trouble for any of their neighbors with no nutty strongman in place. No more massacres of the people, free trade, all good stuff.

In short, if all this goes off Iraq has the potential to become a free nation like we live in...and many souls can be saved through missionary activity. I know for a fact God likes all of that. I hope you don't oppose that.

Has the invasion and occupation gone flawlessly? Of course not, but it has gone well in spite of the media reports to the contrary. The favor of God is on the effort. I also think this is a key milestone in end times prophesy.

Remember at the time of Russia's attack on Israel, Israel is a land of unwalled villages. Somehow Israel no longer believes they need a strong military. Her neighbors are no longer a threat. Iraq is now one of those nations that will not threaten Israel.

-- Anonymous, January 31, 2005

RP

My question was more one of theology - specifically:

1) Why is God on the USA's side instead of, say, the side some average Iraqi Sunni villager who didn't care that the government was autocratic because the water and electricity worked, he had a job and the crime rate was under control?

2) Is God also on the side of US allies such as Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait and Jordan, none of which even pretend to have free, open socities (much less, democracies) and are Moslem by law?

3) If God is on "our" side now, was he on our side in Beirut in 1983, or Somalia in 1993, or in Khe Sanh in 1968? Why did Moslems and godless communists prevail in those situations?

4) What about the 56% of the people surveyed last month by the Washington Post who believe that the Iraq War was a mistake? Are they apostates and/or blasphemers?

Please enlighten me.

-- Anonymous, January 31, 2005

OK, lemme try to answer these. In a nutshell I think I can say we're going through a national test. It's happened many times before, but this time we're blessed to have an evangelical, or at least a marginal evangelical in the White House. It doesn't mean times will always be easy, but in the end I believe it'll all work out for the best thanks to God's favor. I'm optimistic.

So for your first question: Yes, God is currently on our side because of God fearing leadership. As for the Sunni, he'll be blessed over the long term with a better nation - thanks to us. The reason he doesn't have utitlities and security now isn't our fault. It's the fault of the guerrillas who blow up the utilities and set off car bombs. We're trying to rebuild and provide security - trying really really hard. How did it get out that we're blowing up gas lines and targeting innocents? That's the enemy's forte.

Also remember God's favor can be withdrawn overnight in the right circumstances too. Be warned America.

I also agree with a statement by Pat Robertson on a related subject: The US is the largest source of missionary money and missionaries in the world today. That will likely keep God's judgement off of us for the time being because God wants the Great Commission carried out. Evangelicals lead the way in missions.

I'd add that our support for Israel, God's chosen people keeps judgement at bay too. The day that stops, dig a hole. We're toast.

As for our authoritarian allies, God will bless them as they bless us. Don't think that will prevent God from moving sovereignly in their affairs too though. Freedom may be down the road for them too thanks to the stirrings of liberty in Iraq and Afghanistan. One commentator I heard today said as the images of dancing Iraqis goes out, other Arabs will ask, "why not us too?"

The examples you site where the bad guys won must focus on our leadership of the day. As much a Reaganite as I am, I do think he goofed by pulling out of Beruit the way he did. Fortunately he made up for it by initiating the downfall of the USSR, and the Gospel has gone out big time into Russia. God is pleased. Same thing with El Salvador and Nicaragua. The commies were removed, and the evangelical church is BIG in both those nations now. God is pleased.

Somalia and Vietnam are examples of feckless liberals with no spine in leadership. In Somalia we ran after one gun fight. I'm just now finishing up the book "Blackhawk Down." The soldiers were eager to go back and make up for their defeat, but Clinton wanted to run.

In Vietnam it was the same tuck tail and run, only this time the liberal disease had hit our entire nation. Shameful. As I understand we were actually winning the war, but we didn't have the character to finish. Now the church in Vietnam is underground. God is not pleased.

Also remember where the ultimate failure for Vietnam's defeat lies - the liberal congress of 1975. We promised the South Vietnamese we'd return should they get into trouble, and in the final invasion Congress broke the promise.

Another note: Osama bin Laden has been quoted as saying our running from Beruit and Somalia taught him a lesson: Americans run after a few casualties. Before Gulf War 1 Saddam also said America is not the kind of nation that can sustain 10,000 casualties in a day. He saw the same lessons from Vietnam and Beruit, and never believed we'd go to war. Since being captured he's said prior to the second Gulf War he was depending on the anti-war movement to keep him safe. Were a liberal president, he would have been safe. Not so a conservative, and now he's in jail. God is pleased.

So the bad guys think we can't take punishment. Two Bush Presidents have proven the bad guys wrong. LBJ and President Clinton proved the bad guys right. Leadership is key, and the Republicans have a much better record. Where we stick it out, good comes in time including the spread of evangelical Christianity. God absolutely LOVES that.

As for those with other views, hey we're all mistaken about something sometime. The question is, are we open to teaching by the Holy Spirit? I try to be. As long as we are, there's hope.

-- Anonymous, January 31, 2005

RP:

"It's happened many times before, but this time we're blessed to have an evangelical, or at least a marginal evangelical in the White House . . . So for your first question: Yes, God is currently on our side because of God fearing leadership."

When James Earl Carter, the only avowed born-again Christian President, a Baptist Sunday School teacher who is the only President that regularly attended Sunday Services while in the White House, was in office, we had the Iran Hostage Crisis. Was God cursing America because of Carter?

"As for the Sunni, he'll be blessed over the long term with a better nation - thanks to us. The reason he doesn't have utitlities and security now isn't our fault."

What about the tens of thousands of dead Sunni women and children who died as a result of US bombs? . Are they blessed?

"I also agree with a statement by Pat Robertson on a related subject: The US is the largest source of missionary money and missionaries in the world today. That will likely keep God's judgement off of us for the time being because God wants the Great Commission carried out. Evangelicals lead the way in missions."

So we're bribing God? Our money influences God's decision making? I know that medieval Catholics believed that they could buy God's favor and pay the Pope to forgive their sins, but I did not realize that evangelicals held that view.

"I'd add that our support for Israel, God's chosen people keeps judgement at bay too. The day that stops, dig a hole. We're toast."

I thought evangelicals support Israel because it will HASTEN God's judgement and speed up the Second Coming? That's what Falwell says: http://www.beliefnet.com/story/106/story_10687_1.html

"As for our authoritarian allies, God will bless them as they bless us."

So God is blessing them, even though 19 of the 20 911 terrorists were Saudis, and that 80% of the the money that supports Arab terrorists come from Saudi Arabia? "The examples you site where the bad guys won must focus on our leadership of the day."

I was trying to avoid politics, but since you went there:

"As much a Reaganite as I am, I do think he goofed by pulling out of Beruit the way he did. Fortunately he made up for it by initiating the downfall of the USSR, and the Gospel has gone out big time into Russia. God is pleased."

Aren't there LESS Christians in Russia now than in 1990? http://www.samford.edu/groups/global/ewcmreport/articles/ew05102.htm

"Same thing with El Salvador and Nicaragua. The commies were removed, and the evangelical church is BIG in both those nations now."

Wasn't Nicaragua a nominal democracy, headed by a US ally and CIA operative, Manuel Noriega?

"In Somalia we ran after one gun fight. I'm just now finishing up the book "Blackhawk Down." The soldiers were eager to go back and make up for their defeat, but Clinton wanted to run."

What would the mission objectives have been? Was the sacrafice/risk worth the objective? "In Vietnam it was the same tuck tail and run, only this time the liberal disease had hit our entire nation. Shameful."

Wasn't Vietnam started by Eisenhower (Republican) and the peace negotiated by Nixon and Ford (Republicans)? Didn't Kissenger (Republican) win the Nobel Prize for his shameful actions?

"Also remember where the ultimate failure for Vietnam's defeat lies - the liberal congress of 1975. We promised the South Vietnamese we'd return should they get into trouble, and in the final invasion Congress broke the promise."

Why didn't the (Republican) Commander-in-Chief order the troops back in and keep that promise? American troops were in Vietnam by Executive Order, not an act of Congress, from 1955-64 and even under the War Powers Act of 1973, the President still had the authority to send in troops for sixty days before Congress was required to act. The has never been (nor ever will be) a Congress that would move to withdraw troops in the field over the objection of the President.

"Before Gulf War 1 Saddam also said America is not the kind of nation that can sustain 10,000 casualties in a day. He saw the same lessons from Vietnam and Beruit, and never believed we'd go to war."

So Bush's trial balloons about pulling out if the Iraqi government asks won't be characterized as a desire to cut & run? Didn't Bush I cut & run, instead of finishing the job in 1991?

"Since being captured he's said prior to the second Gulf War he was depending on the anti-war movement to keep him safe. Were a liberal president, he would have been safe. Not so a conservative, and now he's in jail. God is pleased."

If God wanted Saddam to recieve justice, why didn't God just give him a fatal stroke, instead of creating 100,000 innoncent casualties (the British estimate), plus 13,000 dead, wounded or maimed US soldiers?

"Two Bush Presidents have proven the bad guys wrong. LBJ and President Clinton proved the bad guys right."

Didn't America experience its most extended period of prosperity since WWII under Clinton? God punished our troops in Somalia but blessed our bank accounts?

"Leadership is key, and the Republicans have a much better record."

In what respect? The economy? Status in the world? Quality of life? Do you have an objective form of measurement for that?

"Where we stick it out, good comes in time including the spread of evangelical Christianity. God absolutely LOVES that."

Where has America spread evangelical Christianity under force of arms? Has it lasted or spread in a big way after the arms were laid down?

"As for those with other views, hey we're all mistaken about something sometime. The question is, are we open to teaching by the Holy Spirit? I try to be. As long as we are, there's hope."

What if they think that YOU are the mistaken one? How do you know that your thoughts are guided and directed by the Holy Spirit and not by bigotries, prejudices and misperceptions? Do you read and study the Bible? If so, how do you reconcile your views of evangelical christianity spreading by the power of the American military?

If I recall correctly, Islam was spread by the sword. Christianity was spread by evangelism and martyrdom - why do you think we need to reverse the formula now?

-- Anonymous, February 01, 2005

Thank you John for that insightful post, supported by facts and not just rhetoric.

One thing about the "enlightened" response that really leaves me wondering is his view of God

"I also agree with a statement by Pat Robertson on a related subject: The US is the largest source of missionary money and missionaries in the world today. That will likely keep God's judgement off of us for the time being because God wants the Great Commission carried out. Evangelicals lead the way in missions."

Contrast that view with Isa. 40:21

21 Do you not know? Have you not heard?

Has it not been told you from the beginning?

Have you not understood since the earth was founded?

22 He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,

and its people are like grasshoppers.

He stretches out the heavens like a canopy,

and spreads them out like a tent to live in.

23 He brings princes to naught

and reduces the rulers of this world to nothing.

24 No sooner are they planted,

no sooner are they sown,

no sooner do they take root in the ground,

than he blows on them and they wither,

and a whirlwind sweeps them away like chaff.

25 "To whom will you compare me?

Or who is my equal?" says the Holy One.

Whose report will you believe?

-- Anonymous, February 01, 2005

Please allow the input from an outsider

There is already a very strong model that will happen in Iraq. They have their neighbours the Iranians who have a democratically elected Parliament but the country has grown more fundamentalist since the fall of the "Shah of Iran", placed their interestingly enough by former President George HW Bush. Iraq I believe is already turning to its Islamic Leaders like the Grand Ayatollah who stopped the Mosque battle with the young Cleric.

I believe that while it is the Presidents spoken mandate to democratize the Middle East, he is only strengthening the growth of Islam and the possibility for further and future attacks against the United States. I pray that I am wrong but the approach into Iraq and the result of these elections will soon show the direction which none of us can control or change.

May God be withh all of the citizens of Iraq and those of the United States, particularly those who have lost their lives.

-- Anonymous, February 01, 2005

Brother Brangman,

"There is already a very strong model that will happen in Iraq. They have their neighbours the Iranians who have a democratically elected Parliament but the country has grown more fundamentalist since the fall of the "Shah of Iran", placed their interestingly enough by former President George HW Bush. Iraq I believe is already turning to its Islamic Leaders like the Grand Ayatollah who stopped the Mosque battle with the young Cleric."

That is precisely so. The 1st nation to hail the elections in Iraq was Iran. It was a matter of days after the US invaded that we were "warning Iraq off" of getting involved in southern Iraq, and the State Department's pre-Invasion models (which were completely dismissed by the White House and Department of Defense) forecast a better than even probability of post-War Iraq becoming either a client state of Iran or an Islamic Republic closely allied with Iran due to the large Shi'a population.

Actually, I think that likekihood would be a better alternative than the one projected by the Intellectual Conservative, which is the partitioning of Iraq.

http://www.intellectualconservative.com/article3439.html

In that instance, we'd likely see not only years of civil war, but also a conflict that would spill beyond the borders of Iraq, drawing in Turkey, Iran and possibly Syria. Even before the election, Kurds were petitioning for the establishment of an independent Kurdistan in northern Iraq. Turkey has vowed to oppose such an action militarily and it took a great deal of bribery and brokering to keep the Turks from launching a "pre-emptive war" against the Kurds in northern Iraq when the US campaign began.

The US administration concedes that southern Iraq is rife with Iranian intelligence agents, political organizers and fundamentalist clerics. The History News Network published an article last year titled "Does America Usually Win the War but Lose the Peace?"

http://hnn.us/articles/6660.html

This may be a classic example!

-- Anonymous, February 01, 2005

Hmmmmm. It appears we have two completely different world views, and both reside within the Body of Christ. We're both seeking to be like Him and gain His mind, and yet look where we've landed. Interesting, eh?

Well as I said as long as we remain teachable by the Holy Spirit there's hope. I'm not writing you off. Please don't write me off, even though some here consider me a blind, racist, moronic, demonized, tool of the devil (all quotes from this very board. Proud of it?)

Say, since that seems to be the general AME opinion of evangelicals you must think that of my wife too. I'll have to tell her. She believes the same as I do.

-- Anonymous, February 02, 2005

The elections now being counted with a preliminary leadership to be in place within 2 months. The next and most crucial step will be the full representative elections later. For the Sunni's Shiites and Kurds this will be the ultimate test. My hope and prayer is that the American forces will be able to settle into a posture similar to that in Bosnia where there has been maybe 1 death in 2 years (this being accidental). May God's Peace rest with us all

-- Anonymous, February 03, 2005