Brothers and Sisters,

This is a must see. Whether you are a supporter or not, this film is well done and demands the attention of anyone who cares about this country.

In Christ,

-- Anonymous, July 16, 2004

Answers

Why is this film a "must see" or "anyone who cares about this country"? From your statement it appears that you subscribe to Michael Moores propaganda.

-- Anonymous, July 17, 2004

I have not seen this film, but I do believe that we as American have the right to express our opinion, without being condemed. I hope that this too is your opinion, and if so, also respect the rights of others that may or may not agree with you - Judge not lest Ye be Judged.

-- Anonymous, July 17, 2004

I saw it last night. Politics aside, it reinforced my belief in the need to guarantee civil liberties in a free society despite whatever perceived threats may exist.

-- Anonymous, July 17, 2004

"We now have sunk to such a depth that the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men."

Brother Wheele,

Why so contrary? Take your open, untainted, unafraid, intelligent, thinking mind to see this film. At the end of the day the worse that could happen is that a thought is provolked. When I went, there were no guards at the doors demanding to see my voter regististration card or requiring my compliance with one view over another. Its a film! I did add "anyone who cares about this country" because the film is about this country. Make up your own mind, but for crying-out-loud, don't be a boob and make up your mind about the film before seeing it! I personally enjoyed the film and thought that other thinking adults would too. Peace.

In His Service,

-- Anonymous, July 17, 2004

The movie was absolutely fabulous. And yes, I do subscribe to some of Michael Moore's propaganda. Not all of it, but some of it. It showed in color just what people have been saying about the Bush Administration all along. I hope Bush gets booted out of office. But then, he never won the 2000 election in the first place. God bless!

-- Anonymous, July 17, 2004

My Dear Brother Ron,

What is it that you enjoyed about the film? Augusta..there's the myth that continues to be propagated that the President didn't win the 2000 election. What is not being reported is that independent "liberal" news papers conducted an recount of the Florida votes taking into considering the troublesome "chads" etc. and Bush still won. Believe me if the recount resulted in Gore's victory it would have been trumpeted in the press. I wouldn't give Michael Moore a dime of my money because his film is not a true documentary. It's unabated propaganda to promote his political ideation. I've read statements he's made abroad about this country. He thinks Americans are stupid and that we've been a force for evil in the world.

-- Anonymous, July 18, 2004

Bro. Wheeler, My recollection about what the news media found was that had the recount only been of those counties in Florida that Gore challenged, it would not have changed the result in Florida. But had the recount been of all counties in Florida Gore would have won the state by a small margin. As for the movie, one of the most poignant moments (and there were several) was it showed the sequence of timing of the planes hitting the world trade towers, and what President Bush was doing (or not doing). It was disturbing to see how he reacted to a major ongoing crises when none of his cheif advisors were present.

-- Anonymous, July 18, 2004

My Dear Brother Byrd,

So what are you saying took place...was the recount only of the counties that Gore challenged? I have to research it to see if it was of all the votes cast (which I'm prone to believe was the case) or just challenged counties. If Gore had won the recount of all the votes cast then I'm sure it would have been trumpeted abroad by such papers as the LA Times, the New York Times the Boston Globe, etc. I don't recall seeing any banner headlines announcing such.

-- Anonymous, July 19, 2004

Brother Byrd,

I did an internet search and all of the counties in Florida were recounted. The results county by county and the changes can be found on demographia.com. Bush actually picked up more votes than the 500+ after the initial voting. He won the recount by 1773 votes.

-- Anonymous, July 19, 2004

Mr. Wheeler,

I rarely inject myself into political/ideological debates, but the Federal Election Commission's official tally after all recounts shows Bush with a 537 vote margin as of December 2001. It also shows Gore with a 533,895 total advantage in popular votes.

http://www.fec.gov/pubrec/2000presgeresults.htm

Also, the official recount was not carried out statewide (see Gore v. Bush, United States Supreme Court) and the Court ruled that the recount did not need to include all counties.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._presidential_election,_2000

The least politicized account I can find is in the link above this line. One excerpt:

"57,700 voters were incorrectly listed as felons on a "scrub list" and thus their votes were not counted. (In some cases, the alleged felonies were dated several years after the election and the vast majority of the listed were not felons.) These persons were disproportionately Democrats of African-American and Hispanic descent. While the story was widely reported from November in countries such as the UK, the US media refused to publish it until many months after the elections(1) (http://www.zmag.org/sustainers/content/2004-03/06schechter.cfm). However, in balance an additional 8,000 non-felons had been supplied by the state of Texas, via Database Technologies, and these people were added to the list in May 2000. Several months after the election, the Palm Beach Post revealed this story. These 8,000 were later removed from the list following a story by the Palm Beach Post. 714 Illinoians and 990 Ohians were added in the same fashion and not removed."

-- Anonymous, July 19, 2004

Pastor Cager,

Thank you for the info and the link. Praise God for those 537 votes !

-- Anonymous, July 19, 2004

I saw this movie twice. I agree that it is not a documentary, but it is valuable in that it brings to light questions that the media neglected to ask in this age of political correctness and blind patriotism. As brother Byrd pointed out earlier, it is most disturbing to see a US president having no idea what to do while his country is being attacked. Another disturbing point was the mother who lost her son in the Iraq war.

No brother Wheeler I do not praise God for those 537 votes. God is not the author of confusion, but I do know that He is bigger than all of this and can work it out.

-- Anonymous, July 19, 2004

If you haven't seen the movie, it is really ludicrous for you to post on this portion of the discussion board. You really have no frame of reference, and the written accounts of the movie really will not help you shed light on what the movie was about. You need to see it. Yes, you need to give Michael Moore some of your money. In light of the downward slop that America has experienced since Bush has taken office, how can anyone thank God for Bush's 537 votes? Michael Moore has contributed greatly to the community, in that there are many people that hasn't even given Bush and his administration a second thought, but after seeing Farenheit 9/11 and Bowling for Columbine, both Moore's movies, they are now paying attention to what is going on in Washington. And, they will be voting against Bush in the next election. God bless.

-- Anonymous, July 19, 2004

If there are persons who voted for Bush who has seen the movie 9/11 I'd be interested in your perspective/reaction. Rev. Cager and Bro. Wheeler thanks for the extra information. Gore (for whom I voted) had a problem greater than Florida--it was Tennessee (as has been noted in earlier posts).

Blessings

-- Anonymous, July 19, 2004

My Dear Sister Augusta,

What is the downward slope that you're referring to? There are people out there who want to KILL you and me. They don't care whether you're black or white. If you're not a Muslim then you're an infidel and deserve to die. If the "downward slope" is having a President who believes in pre-emptive actions to deter this evil then so be it. But I don't want to put words in your mouth. It's true that I haven't seen Farenheit 911; but I don't need to eat arsenic to know that it's bad for me and can kill me. Michael Moore hates America. He tries to portray himself a blue collar worker, an average guy while he's a multimillionaire. If people would take the time to do some additional reading about some of these peope who promote/support certain causes you'd get a better perspective. Another prime example is George Sorros who has practically bank rolled the Democratic party. I going to generalize and say the average African American would not support the positions Sorros has taken. Historically African Americans have voted Republican til the time of Franklin Roosevelt. One of our Bishops, (Bishop Turner) help start the Republican Party in Georgia. The problem with the GOP is that it has allowed the Democrats to demonize them in the eyes of African Americans. Well..so much for my pontificating on these matters. Isn't it great we live in a country where we can freely discuss these issues!

-- Anonymous, July 19, 2004

Bro. Wheeler Wouldn't you concede that there has been a fair amount of demonizing on both sides--Republican and Democrat? Democracy and indeed freedom are in incredible danger when we, like Pavlovion dogs hear our respective whistles and bark predictably..unthinkingly. We are much too afraid that the "other side" may have a perspective worth listening to..learning from. None of us can see, perceive and understand as much as all of us can, sharing divergent viewpoints. I value your perspective and I understand your desire not to put money in the pocket of someone with whom you do not agree. So here is my challenge to you. Go see the movie and I will pay you for the movie and popcorn if you give us your honest feedback. Are you game? :) Nothin' But Love

-- Anonymous, July 19, 2004

My Dear Brother Byrd,

Who can turn down such a generous offer! I'll take a certified check please :) My wife and sons will think I'm apostate. I'll go see the film and give you my opinion. By the way are you Bishop Byrd's son?

-- Anonymous, July 20, 2004

"Certified check" will have me smiling all day. Tell Mrs. Wheeler and sons that you are doing research to try to enlighten a lost but well meaning democrat. Yes I am the son of those proud and sanctified South Carolinians Vernon and Theora Byrd. All the best.

-- Anonymous, July 20, 2004

I have seen this movie and agree that if you dislike Pres. Bush going in, you dislike him going out. If you are a Bush apologist going in, you are still an apologist going out. The interesting thing is how quick folks are in labeling Michael Moore as a hater of America. Once again, the "position paper" by the Right is echoed. Say anything negative about the President or administration, you hate America. This film is just like Fox News, Fair and Balanced. Fox News does the same thing that Moore does every day but no one seems to worry about them. After all, they declare themselves, Fair and Balanced with a straight face.

-- Anonymous, July 20, 2004

Bob,

It's not what Moore says about the President it's what he's said aboad about YOU and ME that troublesome.

-- Anonymous, July 20, 2004

That was supposed to be "abroad" not "aboad"

-- Anonymous, July 20, 2004

I saw it on July 15, the night before my surgery in Norwalk.

Michael Moore is very accurate in his documentary. And he he knowes how to rub it in, too.

I also have my own version of Bush's election. The Bush's used to live about 3 blocks where I used to live in Compton. They lived on Santa Fe Ave, between Compton and Alondra Blvds. in 1949.

My relation to Bush started in dreams I had in 2000, the night of the recount.

I am a Democrat, by the way since I became a citizen.

Here are some of excerpts from e-mails I sent him.

The Christian Yahwist and Bush

I also used to write to Clinton since 1996. I will publish those later.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Anonymous, July 27, 2004

I've been silent long enough so like the cicadas it's time to come out and offer my 2 cents :-) What most folks are missing (pro & anti- Moore movie viewers) is the title of the film. The film is not just 9/11 but Fahrenheit 9/11. Now what gets lost in the debate is why Mr. Moore choose to insert "Fahrenheit" in the title. One might think the word is making reference to some thermometric scale measuring atmospheric pressure for freezing or boiling points. Perhaps but unlikely. I'm not 100% certain of his motive but I do think Ray Bradbury's classic utopian tale 'Fahrenheit 451' is the principle inspiration for Moore's political exploration into alleged deceit, denial and betrayal activities of President Bush and his inner circle of influential friends.

Much like Bradbury's futuristic tale of the noble efforts of a "fireman" struggling to prevent book burnings to secure knowledge and information, Moore tries to create similar heroes in the form of the grief-stricken mother who losses her son in Iraq, members of the Congressional Black Caucus who demand a vote of no confidence in Election 2000 and Iraqi civilians killed by lethal American military power. Now for sure there is a kernel of truth Moore reveals in his saga regarding the hasty departure of Saudi familiy members shortly after 9/11 or the prominent role of James Bath or even the self- serving role of Haliburton. However, conceding these points, the film fails to make a compelling case that President Bush and the current administration was complicit in the 9/11 attacks because stood to gain financially. COrrect me if I'm wrong but the newly released 9-11 Commission Report chaired by Lee Hamilton and Thomas Keane made no reference to Moore successfully "connecting the dots". The film also is disingenous and hypocritical in attempting to engage in a crass form of mind-reading by suggesting that the President's paralyzed expression upon hearing word about the Twin Towers crash "showed" he was unfit to serve.

Bush's quizzical expression and decision to continue reading a book to 3rd graders is NOT evidence of weakness. I recall JFK's look of exasperation during the Cuban Missle Crisis. The media didn't try to play mind-readers during that crisis yet this is precisely what an uncredentialed psychologist like Moore has done yet no one (except folks like me) will call him to task on this hypocrisy. Neither did Mr. Moore show footage of Mr. Bush making a confident speech to NY firefighters at the site of ground zero or cheering Iraqis when the Baghdad fell and the dismatling of Saddam's stature. I guess those footage clips are inapprpropriate when your sole purpose is politcal axe grinding. Yet, Moore insists his film is a "documentary".

I looked at the film with an open mind- agreeing with some things (Saudi duplicity, Enron, Haliburton) but strongly disagreeing with the film's core accusations. It is indisputable that Moore's latest film is NOT a documentary. Moore's work is no more a documentary than the Marx Brothers WW II spoof, Duck Soup. An example of an authentic documentary director is Ken Burns (PBS productions of Civil War, Baseball & Black Church). Ray Bradbury is a key figure in 20th century American literature. It would be wise for Mr. Moore to honor his literary hero by remaining in the realm of fiction where his skills are best utilized and appreciated. QED

-- Anonymous, July 28, 2004

I think some of Moore's points have some truth to them.

-Why invade Iraq if they did not send any terrorists to attack the USA? Why not Saudi Arabia?

-It is averified fact that Bin Laden's family left the country right after 9/11.

-Also Bush reacted dslowly to the events of 9/11. We saw Giuliani instead taking the spotlight.

- Taliban businessmen came to Bush's company in Texas in the 1990s.

- African Americans were shut down when they protested voter irregularities in Florida during the voting and after the recount.

-Cheney left Halliburton to be Bush's vice-President. That company has received most of the money for reconstraction in Iraq without any reviws or competive bidding.

-Taking money from social security and other programs to keep his campaignpromise of a return to taxpayers. Nothing is free in this life.

.....

Something not mentioned in the movie directly but indirectly. At the end of the movie, there is a number of 2973 victims in the attacks. Divide 2/2 and you het 1. That is 1973. What happened in 1973? Like the old saying goes, what goes around comes around.

On the other September 11, 1973, his father, as part of the CIA convinced an obscure general the, Augusto Pinochet Ugarte to depose the elected President, a socialist by the name of salvador Allende. Allende died in the coup. Not only him, but well over 5000 Chileans. Their only crime was that they were socialists. Some were thrown from airplanes and their bodies found many days later. Others buries alive, burned, shot, tortured in a soccer stadium,....Others were assassinated in Argentina , the USA,...

Pinochet has not yet faced real justice.

I asked God why he allowed murderers like Pinochet go unpunished....

I waited 28 years to se at least some dark justice.

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Anonymous, July 28, 2004

Here is more on dreams my mother Angela had in 2001 and even before that.

The Christian Yahwist and Bush

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Anonymous, July 28, 2004

Bro. Bill says "Bush's quizzical expression and decision to continue reading to 3rd graders is not evidence of weakness".

Bush's quizzical expression at the time the planes struck the towers is, to me not the issue. The issue is that there are some moments that cry out for action. If a fire cheif decided to read a book while his city was burning, it would be deemed unacceptable.

If a doctor decided to read the Robb Report while his patient was experiencing cardiac arrest, it would be malpractice.

It is equally unacceptable, at least for me, for the Commander and Cheif to be reading My Little Goat when his nation, our nation, was under attack.

On 9/11 the nation was interrupted in a most horrific way, why didn't our President interrupt his photo op. at least by the time he was told that another plane hit the other tower. That's not a problem of ideology. That's a problem of competence. Bush can now be put along side Nero as a leader who "fiddled" (in a sense) in the early moments of a national crises. What will he be reading the next time?

-- Anonymous, July 28, 2004

Parson Byrd opines -

"On 9/11 the nation was interrupted in a most horrific way, why didn't our President interrupt his photo op. at least by the time he was told that another plane hit the other tower. That's not a problem of ideology. That's a problem of competence."

The issue about competence should be the only determinant in assessing leadership abilities of a President. Thanks for making that the focal point. Regrettably, too many of my friends and colleagues who are critical of President Bush continue to confuse ideology with competence. For many, competence is a function of ideology. If you are perceived as being a political conservative, ipso facto, you are incompetent. Competence should be objectively measured and purged of any subjective feelings about the person. Yet, within the fog of reality which we wrestle with daily, objective measures of competence are routinely discarded and replaced with vague, ambiguous and self-serving indicators designed to only support our a priori beliefs.

Now our distinguished parson from the Garden State has carefully outlined that the President exhibited little to no competence in his initial handling of the attacks. It appears Parson Byrd, like many others, would have prefered the President suspend time teaching the importance of reading to that 3rd grade class and attend to the more urgent matter at hand. This view is understandable but it fails to recognize the more important goal of showing some degree of calm so that precious and precocious 9 year olds are not "freaked out" about the concomitant death and destruction associated with the Twin Towers attacks.

The President had to absorb the intelligence information, think thru the many contingency plans and contemplate the foreign policy implications of this horrific event. I believe the venue (elementary school) constrained the President to hastily "interrupt" his time with our children. Suppose, for the sake of argument, Bush did precisely what Parson Byrd recommends and canceled the reading time session. Now imagine the reaction by the President if one of those precious and precocious 3rd graders asked, "Mr. President, you just got here, why are you leaving before snack time? Don't you like My Little Goat?" As adults we know that children are brutally honest and apolitical because they still operate within the realm of innocence.

By reading the book and engaging in their learning experience this was perhaps the best forum for the President to carefully collect his thoughts about the tragedy in New York. Who knows, maybe the President was thinking about reading an additional book to help shape his thoughts like "The Little Train That Could". Former Clinton Secretary of State Madeline Albright often implored Israelis and Palestinians to "think before acting" in response to Middle East violence. Seems like to me this sage advice was used properly by President Bush while reading to 3rd gade kids. QED

-- Anonymous, July 29, 2004

Why did the VP order planes shot down? Why not the president? Exactly who led the nation at that time?

-- Anonymous, July 29, 2004

Cheney ordered the planes shot down after consultation with Bush. It wasn't a usurpation of authority nor does it imply that the President wasn't in "control". Once the President decided it was in the nation's security interests for the planes to be shot down, that choice was definitive and decisive and he allowed Dick Cheney to carry out the decision. The notion that the country was lacking in Presidential leadership during this tragic and tense time is mere urban legend and yet another politically inspired attempt to discredit the Bush Presidency. QED

-- Anonymous, July 29, 2004

Bro. Bill,

It is amazing to see what lengths one would explore to justify the actions of this man. It is not the ideology of conservatives (of which I am one) that calls into question their competence, it is rather a perceived lack of intellectual honesty and a seemingly lack of compassion for one's fellow man. It doesn't take a mental giant to measure the disaster that is the Bush administration. Yet, those very persons who would tell us that we should not worry ourselves with the weighty matters of the world and should just let them lead, expect blind faith and trust in their goodness and rightness. Even God does not expect that!

The party faithful, often judged conservatives (which I object to) would have the whole world believe that George is simply misunderstood - the victum of a grand liberal conspiracy, engineered by gays, blacks, entertainers, pagans, and cowards. These faithful treat the whole world as fools - as though blind, deaf, and dumb, unable or unwilling to object for fear of forfeiting the crumbs promised by their superiors.

I do believe that the contemparary use of the word ideology generally refers to political or economic ideas such as democracy, oligarchy, communism, etc. Which of these three terms best describe the Republican Ideology? Be Honest!

In Christ

-- Anonymous, July 29, 2004

Ron opines -

"It is amazing to see what lengths one would explore to justify the actions of this man. It is not the ideology of conservatives (of which I am one) that calls into question their competence, it is rather a perceived lack of intellectual honesty and a seemingly lack of compassion for one's fellow man."

Just exactly what lengths are you refering to in the above quote? I provided my "review" of the movie based on the connection between Mr. Moore and Ray Bradbury. I believe this is a much neglected but important literary point. I also responded to Parson Byrd's constructive criticism by addressing the modern habit of equating ideology with competence. I don't see how these observations translate into going to great lengths to justify the actions of the President. Now, your indictment appears to be based on what you consider the President having a "lack of intellectual honesty and lack of compassion for his fellow man". Such words would clearly suggests the President does not possess the requisite moral compass to lead the the only global superpower left on planet Earth. In Shakespeare's play Hamlet, Polonius offers sound advice to Laertes prior to setting sail when he said, "This above all, to thine own self be true." I believe most politicians, including Bush, would respond by saying 'yes' to Polonius' advice. To suggest the President suffers from a lack of honesty and compassion is tantamount to admitting that dishonesty and selfishness rule the Oval Office. Do you have specific irrefutable evidence that points to the President putting his selfish interests above the interests of the US? If so, I would be interested in reading such information. The oath any President takes prior to assuming office makes clear that only the interests of the USA will guide and direct his duties and functions. To do anything different would be grounds for impeachment and personal disavowal of Shakespearean wisdom. QED

-- Anonymous, July 29, 2004

The argument about President Bush remaining with school children while the nation is under attach is ludicrous. I am supposed to believe that while airplanes are crashing into New York buildings, the Pentagon, and into PA cornfields the president remains with a class of school children as not to alarm them. So, for example, if I am with a classroom of children (with other adults present) and I am a doctor and am informed there is an accident outside the building that requires my assistance, I am to remain with the children as not to alarm them. However, I am allowed to call my office to tell my office staff to call the emergency vehicles to assistance.

Second, I am to believe that President Bush allowed his Vice President to carry out his order to shoot down enemy planes. At no time in the American presidency has this been done. You can rest assured when Pearl Harbor was attacked FDR did not tell Henry Wallace to notify the war department to respond. What kept Bush from giving the order? The explanation given by Dickens has not been offered by the White House.

I was raised in a thoroughly patriotic American household and to respect the dignity of the office of the president. Unfortunately, of late, Americans have allowed themselves to be caught up in the glitz and the rhetoric of the moment without weighing our candidates fully. Dignity and capability comes from a person developing character over a course of time into manhood. It is not something the American public can bestow onto a president. It must come from inside him. When Kennedy made the Bay of Pigs error he acknowledged his error and gained 82% approval.

It amazes me how new conservatives try to rationalize Bush to the American public. Even the old conservatives have given up on this idea and are moving about with their own agendas.

-- Anonymous, July 29, 2004

Sister Mary,

Well said sister Mary. I am gratified to see that someone has their head above ground.

God Bless You.

In Christ

-- Anonymous, July 29, 2004

bill opines -

"To suggest the President suffers from a lack of honesty and compassion is tantamount to admitting that dishonesty and selfishness rule the Oval Office."

Bro. Bill,

Upon closer examination, I'm sure you will recognize the humor in your observation. I must admit and with all due respect that your response was less than I expected from one as obviously learned as yourself. I say this not as an attack, but rather as evidence of how even the intelligentsia strain to defend the indefensible and swap Reason for rhetoric. It is a phenomena with no apparent origination or explaination and serves to confound the minds of reasonable people. Hence the apparent irreconcilable division of opinion on who this president is, what he stands for and what is it that he has done to us?

George Owell's statement "We now have sunk to such a depth that the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men" deserves attention. Despite oaths, promises, intentions or lack thereof, an honest assessment of the performance of this government reveals corporate corruption, war, terrorism, poverty, and decline in every conceivable indicator of a health. George Bush may by his actions be true to himself, but his job is to be true to you and I. This he hasn't done, and for this reason, he must go.

In His Service,

-- Anonymous, July 30, 2004

Interesting. Everybody can provide a movie review without acrimonious reactions yet when I offer my "review" the floodgates of criticism starts. Now I know how General Custer must've felt at Little Big Horn :-) Let's see if I correctly understand my detractors. I have been accused by Mary of employing a "ludicrous" framework for interpreting the President's decision to read to 3rd grade students. I have been accused by Ron of substituting rhetoric for reason and also behaving like an ostrich with my head under ground. I have been accused by both of being out-of-touch with current reality and remaining in firm denial about the dismal performance of the current Presidency.

The accusations are clear, concise and consistent. It should come as no surprise, at least for those who are familiar with my Weltanschauung, that I plead "not guilty" to all charges. I remain unequivocal that the President's decision to continue reading to 3rd graders after receiving word about the Twin Towers was not inappropriate for reasons previously offered. To re-emphasize Secretary Albright's Mid-East wisdom - "think before acting". The counter-examples provided by my trio of dissenters (Byrd, Brooks & Harris) are interesting and persuasive hypotheticals but they are not equivalent to predicting the actions of a US President. The counter- examples and ensuing criticism of the President's actions is nothing more than Monday-Morning Quarterbacking. 9/11 was unprecendented in the manner whereby the attacks occured.

My trio of dissenters are long-winded on what the President didn't do but short-winded on what the President "should have done" in the wake of 9/11. Historical examples are alluded to the FDR administration as an example of true leadership under crisis. First, Pearl Harbor represented a military attack on military targets. 9/11 was fundamentally different with respect to knowing the aggressor. Second, historians have documented that Roosevelt's leadership was not as sterling as the FDR admirers may want to admit. FDR spurned US entry into WW II despite the the Nazi's march thru Krakow, Poland in 1939. FDR forged an alliance with one of the 20th century's most notorious killers, Soviet Premier Josef Stalin. FDR rejected accepting many European Jews as US refugees who were being persecuted under Hitler's regime.

And, most damaging, there is historical evidence that radio frequencies by US naval intelligence determined that a Japanese launch against US forces was imminent yet the Roosevelt White House was impotent to stop the bombing. Why? Despite these shortcomings I still respect and admire FDR's leadership role during the important years of 1941-1944. To sum up, the case of incompetence against President Bush has simply not been established. I asked Bro. Ron for evidence of "intellectual dishonesty and lack of human compassion" yet my modest request has gone by unnoticed. The only evidence in support of incompetence is circumstantial and even that is very weak. If we are going to engage in a spirited debate about US politics it would be helpful if accusations are supported with evidence which can be independently corroborated. This is a non- negotiable requirement for my enterprising college students so you shouldn't be exempt as well :-) QED

-- Anonymous, July 30, 2004

Brother Dickens:

The basics in a poli sci class will tell you a VP is silent. It is the President who takes action when a nation is under attack. Ask one of the students at your college or get Collin Powell to talk about it. It's not complicated at all.

-- Anonymous, July 30, 2004

Mary -

I worked in the Pentagon as a DoD Fellow for several years when General Powell was Chairman of the Joint Chiefs. Thanks for the education offer but, I do not need to consult with poly sci students regarding Presidential duties. Your near obsession with Cheney directing traffic during the early phases of 9/11 is an insignificant point. I am holding a copy of the 911 Special Report (Executive Summary, pp 7-8) where the authors make mention of the shootdown authorization. Mr. Moore should have waited until this Report was ready before distrubiting his film. Nowhere in the Report is there any discussion about the VP's actions being inappropriate. The authors of the Special Report do not make any issue about Cheney's role. The authors of the Report do however conclude on page 16 that we are safer today because of post-911 reforms even though additional work is required to make us "safe". Former Indiana Congressman Lee Hamilton and Condi Rice have a far better understanding of the uncertainty which engulfed the White House during this difficult period in American history. Their foreign policy credibility and credentials far outweigh the cinematic skills of Mr. Moore. Speaking of Mr. Moore, I would be curious to read his reactions and those of his cinematic admirers, to former Clinton NSC chief & Kerry advisor Sandy Berger being caught smuggling classified national security documents from a secured library. I'll be watching to see if "Berger- gate" is included in the sequel to Fahrenheit 911. QED

-- Anonymous, July 30, 2004

Bro. Bill you are too funny. As Shakespere would say "You have lost your mind" (OK maybe he didn't say that, but I'm just trying to keep up here). Kirk, where do I send the certified check :) This conversation has been more entertaining than the movie!

-- Anonymous, July 30, 2004

It's amazing how accusations now being made about President Bush were also said about President Reagan i.e. he's dumb, only a front man while others are running things etc. Yet historians are now finding that the Reagan wasn't as detached as his detractors would lead us to believe. That he stuck to his principles and the world is a freer place because of them. The cold war ended because of Reagan's policies. Say what you will about President Bush I believe he's a man of priniciple and integrity who can be trusted to keep his word. It has been said by some on this board that Bush's administration has been a disaster. Yet no one gives any support to their statement. The President has accomplished a great deal of what he said he was going to do when he ran for President and then some. He lowered taxes, our children are no longer being passed along without being able to read or write, the economy is on an upswing (despite the inherited recession, the Enron scandal, the Dot com bubble burst and 9/11), a prescription drug plan for Senior citizens was passed (talked about for years by both parties), etc.

Brother Byrd,

Put $9.00 for the cost of a movie in your collection plate :) I'm going to see the movie tonight.

-- Anonymous, July 31, 2004

No Brother Dickens, I am not obsessed, just a woman with plain old every day common sense who reads newspapers and the internet wherein it stated Cheney ordered the planes shot down.

-- Anonymous, July 31, 2004

Brother Wheeler:

By the way, what planet do you reside on? I don't know where you are, but we are still waiting here in PA.

-- Anonymous, July 31, 2004

My Dear Sister Mary,

What is it that you're still waiting for? Are you unemployed? I work for a hospital and there are tons of job postings. I dutifully spent my tax cut and child tax rebate (hopefully helping to employ an American). Our children are supposed to pass certain basic standard tests before being promoted. If that isn't the case then the fault is with the school system. The President has increased k-12 spending by 40% since taking office. That's more than Clinton did in 8 yrs. Inflation, interest and the unemployment rates are low (uless you're unemployed). President Bush's administration has contributed more to fighting AIDS in Africa than all of Europe. Clinton paid lip service to fighting AIDS in Africa but didn't do a whole lot..this President put the money where his mouth is. Yet he's characterized by some as lacking compassion for others.

-- Anonymous, July 31, 2004

By the grace of God brother Wheeler I am most fortunate to be continuosly employed. I have worked since the age of 5 until present of 49 years of age. I've always understood that whatever I have comes from God and not public officials whether they be Republicans or Democrats. I can produly say that my parents had a tailor shop in a suburban town for over forty years. Following my father's death when I was 6 my mother taught me through daily prayer and scripture, sun-up and sundown, that every morsel placed on our table was from a God who would provide for us if we lived according to His word. I believed my mother then, and although she is gone, her words are still with me and the promise of God has been kept. When my ex husband decided that he would not support our child, God, our Father, made certain she had all that was needed on my salary alone. He has kept me employed through Republican and Democratic presidents and congresses. So you see, it does not matter to me whom is elected because there is a God who sits high and looks low with an eye aimed directly at His child. Not only has He given me what I've needed, but even smiled and given extra measure. You see, Brother Wheeler I have no other family to aid me. I am the only child of only children. My heavenly Father promised me that He would provide all that was needed and I became rich because of His promise. I am not wealthy in monetary terms but I am wealthy in the freedom that He has afforded me. When you know that the Creator of the Universe has your best interest at heart, you will never have to worry about a Bush or Kerry supporing you. (Glory to God!)

For those who fail to believe God, they will listen to Bush or Kerry to solve their problems. The state of PA has serious unemployment problems and Bush understands this so much that he has traveled here 31 times in one year though he has neglected Philadelphia. Kerry understands that this is a swing state as well. So, Kirk, as you and all of your Republican friends kneel at the alter of Bush and tell him all about your troubles and hope that he hears your faintest cry. I will kneel at the alter of the Living God and continue to ask my Savior to deliver us from evil....all of the politicians with empty rhetoric and lies. I will ask Him to continue to make a way for people like me...those to whom he addressed the sermon on the mount, the ones who trust Him and know that He will see them through.

Can Bush or Kerry look at you and tell you that yours is the kingdom of heaven? Can they comfort you when you have mourned serious loss? Can they quench your thirst for righetousness?

Brother Kirk, you don't know how happy you have made me with your entry. Every time I think of the goodness of Jesus and what He has done for me....I just want to SHOUT!.....SHOUT.....SHOUT!....I cannot wait for service tomorrow. Sister Brooks is going to be one happy sister in the sanctuary! Thank you God!

-- Anonymous, July 31, 2004

I am so happy I have to witness what the Lord did for me a while back. (I am sorry it has nothing to do with Farenheit 911 but I just want to share.) There was a time when I was laid off after 8 years of working for a wonderful company at a job that I truly loved. My mother had passed and it was a very trying and lonely time. To be quite honest, I do not remember whom was in office, but I believe it was Reagan, but it really doesn't matter. Times can be tough no matter whom is in office. I was in college during the Carter years and the gas crisis made for tough times.

I went to the unemployment office and was given authorization for my last unemployment check. The man behind the desk looked at me with a sneering smile on his face and said, "You know this is the last check, and it is for one week rather than two." I told him that I understood and I left the office. To be honest, that man's joy at my unhappiness hurt. I remember praying to God for strength when I left because I was not use to meeting people who were glad at the sadness of others. My daughter was young and I remember wanting to cry, but I had to hold it in because I did not want to upset her. I did cry inside to my Father in heaven through a whispered prayer. When I got into my car I could feel a prayer wheel turning, but I did not have an answer.

I prayed and I prayed...all night long. The next day I received very specific instructions. The Spirit told me to prepare my resume as He instructed and to whom He instructed, but not to mail it yet. He had me wait for at least two or three days. He then instructed me to mail the resumes which I did. Two days later I received a call from the parent company of my previous employer. HR asked that I come in the next day for an interview, which I did. I left the interview and was home for about two hours when I received a call from HR asking if I would accept the position of heading the retiree side of their pension department. Of course, I accepted immediately. When I spoke to HR further they said they had someone else in mind and was just about to make an offer, but when my resume arrived they thought it necessary to call me.

I do understand that God is a Provider when the whole world stands against you. My daughter passed the state required tests and passed on time from high school with scholarship money and accolades from her high school because of her Christian behavior, and I have not been forced to wait for what man has to give me. I have learned that I live under a Mighty God who is there for all of His children if we just listen to Him and do as He says. We do require earthly governments, but we must be the church and obedient to our Father's agenda. Then, all of His children will be blessed. There will be no blue states or red states. We will simply dwell in the land that the Lord, our Father, has given us and we will be a blessing and not a blight to the rest of the world. God bless all of His children. Sister Mary loves you all!

-- Anonymous, July 31, 2004

My beautiful sister Mary, thank you for your powerful and beautiful testimony! The power of God transcends all earthly governments.

Keep telling God's story we need to hear it over and over again.

-- Anonymous, July 31, 2004

Parso Byrd -

This may come a a mild surprise but your psuedo-Shakespearean quote might be inferred from the great tragedy Macbeth :-) Perhaps I should author legistion at the 2008 Gen Con which will require all AME pastors to demonstrate proficiency in one of the 4 great tragedies (Hamlet, MacBeth, King Lear & Othello). The Bard of Avon did on another occassion suggest Scottish society woud be better off if we, "killed all the lawyers". Now since some of my close friends and acquaintences are barristers, I am compelled not to publically embrace this aspect of the Bard's wisdom :-) QED

-- Anonymous, July 31, 2004

My Dear Sister Mary,

I too know that God is the giver of all good and perfect gifts and all that we have come from Him. I too know that He sets up and removes Kings and there is nothing that takes place outside of His control. I donot "kneel at the altar of Bush" and "tell him all of my problems". I am a Christian and take offense at that statement. But God has given me a mind and God does work through men and women and there is an election coming up and I will vote. The issue is..who is the candidate whom I think is more in line with Biblical priniciples and whom I can support. With that said let me get back to a point I made in my earlier post. People are quick to slander the President and say how terrible his administration has been and how inept..but again I ask support your statements with facts..otherwise you're just a flamethrower. I praise God with you that He's provided for you (and me) and has promised never to leave us or forsake us. But when you go into that voting booth you have to vote for someone..whom will that be?

-- Anonymous, July 31, 2004

Bill, I'm so glad you do not agree with the suggestion to "kill all the lawyers" :) because "we have an advocate with the Father." I was privileged to get a hold of one of his business cards and it reads "Wonderful, counselor, almighty God, everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." One of his most famous cases was when he did a closing argument without saying a word. He was representing a woman caught in adultery who was about to be stoned. When it was time for his summation, he shocked the court by stooping down and writing on the ground. He then said "you who are without sin cast the first stone." The woman was guilty, but the accusers decided not to prosecute.

Barrister Jesus is the only lawyer who can keep the evidence against us from being admitted into trial. Because of his blood our infractions against God are inadmissible. We are guilty as home made sin; wrong as two left shoes, but he pleads our case. And because of Christ we have been set free. "We have escaped like a bird from the fowler's snare."

To all the AME-Today family, have a blessed and holy sabboth.

-- Anonymous, August 01, 2004

I can hear a chorus of shouting AMENS from clergy and lay alike!! This thread is a reminder for why I appreciate the company of Gospel preachers. This thread began with a discussion about a movie, ventured into competing "reviews", followed by literary detours with Shakespeare and Orwellian overtones and now climaxes with Parson Byrd's Sunday sermon. Little did I know that my passing comment about Hamlet would lead to a hermeneutic possibility. Little did I know my reference to Shakespeare would serve as a segue to the Savior. Little did I know that my attempt to represent the anti- Moore position would be used to illustrate the One who REPRESENTS us all ( pro bono I might add). Yes, preacher, I'm ever so thankful that "Jesus Dropped The Charges". Your splendid sermon is soup for my sanctified soul. QED

-- Anonymous, August 01, 2004

..."A Segue to the Savior"...mmmm. I'm going to let that simmer!

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2004

Brother Wheeler:

I apologize, but you entry as follows "What is it that you're still waiting for? Are you unemployed? I work for a hospital and there are tons of job postings. I dutifully spent my tax cut and child tax rebate (hopefully helping to employ an American)." appeared as though you were worshipping at the Bush alter.

You see, your opening statement through me back to the government employee at the unemployment office with the little snicker in his voice. Sometimes the compassionate conservatism leaves only conservatism that offers nothing but rhetoric. I do thank you for being a good and loyal American and spending your tax dollar. Personally, mine was not spent but banked.

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2004

Mary,

Thank you for your gracious response. Even your "banking" your tax cut is good for the economy because it allows banks to loan more money for investments. I think you and I would agree that we know better than the federal government how to spend our money for the care of our families (whether it's spending or saving).

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2004

Wow. I have really enjoyed this thread. I will now go and plunk my money down to see this film. It is good to see the Spirit of the Lord being invoked in a very appropriate way. (Thanks for that Shout sister Mary!)

I am really excited about this film because Bill Dickens said he went to see it with an open mind. He didn't like it but he tried it and that is high praise in my mind.

-- Anonymous, August 04, 2004