Over the past ten days I have heard four sermons by four different preachers, one Baptist, One Church of Christ, and two AME preachers. One of them was delivering athe eulogy for another AME preacher and had the audacity to bash the President in it. Everyone of them opened the sermon by bashing President Bush. From this day forward I have resolved to get up and walk out when that happens again. Am I wrong? Are you tired of the bashing of the president?

Be Blessed

-- Anonymous, May 20, 2004

Answers

It's treason Bro Paris. Whether they realize it or not, and I'm sure many don't, every time someone does this or something similar it's like picking up a rifle and shooting a US soldier. It only fuels the enemy. Al Quaeda and its allies know our weakness and the key to their victory: It's people like you described.

I work on an Air Force base. Most of the churches in this town are 1/3 to 1/2 active duty Air Force. We also have the Marine Reserves and Army National Guard. I have many friends who have deployed to the war zone two and three times, and a few even more. Actually we're doing it the easy way with 3-6 month deployments. The Army and Marines go for a year.

We award the Air Force Outstanding Award with Valor device and the Bronze Star on a regular basis. I stood at a ceremony while two C- 130 pilots were awarded the Bronze Star just last month.

My wife's best friend's husband, a neighbor who lives a few houses down and a father of 5 is deployed along with three other men from our church. My next door neighbor, a single mother is gone. My neighbor on the other side, another single mom just got back. It's "nice" to know these ministers are urinating on my personal friends, neighbors, and fellow church members.

And please don't think these people wring their hands when it's time to go again. They believe in the cause. I regularly discuss my posts with the guys at work, and whether they're Baptist, Catholic, Charismatic, foul mouthed pagan, black, white, Hispanic, 9 out of 10 agree with the political positions I post on this board. They've been there and done that. They've received the intelligence briefings and they know the stakes. I doubt the ones you described have even served.

Landslide county? Oh yeah. Around here if you're not in the military you're probably married to it, a child of it, an employee of it, a retiree, a veteran, or at least a good friend.

These fine men and women are paying a huge price to give these ministers the right to puke on them as thanks. You're welcome.

-- Anonymous, May 20, 2004

Yes..I'm sick and tired of black preachers denouncing a fellow Christian from the pulpit. Referring to him as "shrub" or "cowboy". What happened to praying for those who have the authority over us? If anything President Bush's view re: the family and the evils we have to confront in society and solutions are more reflective of what the Bible teaches than other individuals running for President. No prior administrations has had as many high level blacks in positions of power than President Bush's. But because he's a Republican he's castigated by many of our clergy. I'm sick and tired of it! The President doesn't hide his faith in Christ. I think he's a man of conviction and stands by what he says..unlike a prior administration that will remain nameless...but who's head was referred to as the first "black president". It's sad that such an immoral individual would be labeled the first "black president".

Kirk Wheeler

-- Anonymous, May 20, 2004

Treason!!? "Like picking up a rifle and shooting a US soldier!?" Well, let me say right up front that I do not approve this president. I don't approve of his policies, most of which are secret; I do not approve of his politics which are largely divisive. His persona is that of an arrogant idiot and worst of all he has brought disgrace and shame to this proud land by his buffoonery. Sadly, thousands have died by his hand and its likely that thousands more are yet to die. I for one will cast a vote for anyone but him in November.

That said, would you agree that Treason is a bit of an overstatement? Soldiers don't get shot because of dissent, they get shot because they are in harms way. Yes, it may imbolden the enemy to varying degrees to know that there are those in the aggressor's land who dissent, but to make those who disagree out to be the cause or reason that a soldier get shot or killed, is vicious demogogary. Let's not sacrifice our intellectual integrity for the dust of political hyperbole. If you like the president and his practice, fine - if you don't - fine. In either case, the Lord's will be done.

In Christ,

-- Anonymous, May 20, 2004

Brother Wheeler,

Why you would color you comments with racial overtones is beyond me. You decry evil in the world with one side of your mouth and talk as a racist with the other side. This is the problem I have with the president - talks out of both sides of his mouth. My advice is 'beware of wolves in sheep's clothing.'

In Love,

-- Anonymous, May 20, 2004

Treason?

That is so utterly ridiculous. Why is it if anyone disagrees with the president, they are labeled as unpatriotic, demonic, un-American and un Christian?

Thankfully we have freedom of speech in this country which gives us the right and the privilege of speaking against certain policies of the president.

I would never doubt George Bush's Christian beliefs, however I do not think that he is worthy of anyone's support on that basis alone. Many congregations are in prayer because someone's son, daughter, husband or wife is in harm's way but I believe that there are faithful people who feel compelled to speak out against the president's policies.

I understand Pastor Paris' point, and perhaps the pulpit is not the place to dissect the president's policies but neither is it the place to be a cheerleader for them.

-- Anonymous, May 21, 2004

I reject the reference to treason. Using treason has the same rhetorical effect as accussing someone as being a "devil". Both are mere epithets which fail to shed light on matters of public importance. The clergy should be a prophetic voice in our communities. Great O.T. prophets like Elijah, Isaiah & Jeremiah were not intimidated by political leaders in speaking out and condemning sin. The problem in many of our black pulpits is the cowardly habit of only "speaking out" on matters when it is politicallly convenient. President Clinton & Rev. Jesse Jackson were not rebuked by black clergy for their inappropriate behavior which clearly conflicted with black family principles. This muted response is unfortunately due to our collective and individual obsession with race. For nearly all black clergy, race matters and race matters alone. Race has become the transcedent elixir for what ails us in not just social or economic opportunities but scientific, global and technological activities as well. It's easy to engage in Bush- bashing since 90% of your congregants are anti-Republicans. The real test of prophetic courage comes when preachers condemn Democratic "icon" topics like abortion, gay rights, affirmative action or environmental protection. The bully pulpit has been desecrated to only represent a partisan venue for advancing primarily Democratic political laboratories. QED

-- Anonymous, May 21, 2004

Treason?

Does anyone remember having a constitution? How about freedom of speech? How about a democracy? Very interesting.

Last night PBS' Frontline ran a piece on Bush and his religious base thoughout America. White churches all over America actively support the President from their pulpits and they are unconcerned about their tax status being challenged. But other churhes in opposition to Bush worry about their status being challenged? Something is wrong here. I thought we were in America.

Rev. Paris, you have to do as you feel. If God has placed it in your heart to walk, then walk. What do they say? I may not agree with what you say but I will defend your right to say it? Would that be applicable here or not?

-- Anonymous, May 21, 2004

It is unfortunate the reference to "treason" etc. diverted the comments from the question. The question: "Are you tired of preachers bashing President Bush when they claim to be preaching the Word of God? You will note that race was not an issue. I did list the denominations however.

-- Anonymous, May 21, 2004

Hello All, Rev. Paris, I want to respond to your question but it is difficult to do so since I do not know what you mean by "bashing". Is all criticsm of a President "bashing"? To the extent you criticized President Clinton, was it "bashing" and did you ever do it from the pulpit? Certainly, I would agree that ad hominem attacks such as calling a person an idiot is inappropriate particularly from the pulpit, but to denounce policies and practices that seem to the preacher in light of the Word to be immoral and unBiblical is probably a requirement of our office--particularly from the pulpit. (I wish I could remember the Biblical reference to "Woe is me if I see trouble coming and fail to sound the trumpet"). This leads me to my second issue. Bro. Bill, you wrote "The problem in many of our black pulpits is the cowardly habit of only speaking out on matters when it is politically convenient." I strongly agree--and just as strongly disagree. My agreement is that there is a lack of courage in pulpits. My disagreement is that it is a "black pulpit" phenomenon. If listening to conservative talk radio shows gives any indication, my guess is that from the pulpits of the white right there was an equal lack of courage when we discovered that William Bennett, author of the book on Virtues, was a gambling addict, when we discovered that Mr. Livingston, who was speaker of the house for two minutes had an affair himself when he was "bashing" Clinton, when Newt Gingrich was caught in ethics violations and divorced his wife while she was having health problems, when Rush Limbaugh was discovered to be an addict and possibly engaged in illegal conduct. Too often what gets touted as moral outrage is really political posturing as we have different standards for when "our" group does it versus when "their" group does it. The attempt by any group to pretend to have the moral high ground over the other is as ridiculous as declaring "Treason" if someone speaks against the President or his policies. We will only get to a true debate on the moral issues of the day when everybody is willing to put the spotlight on him/herself and see that we are all standing in the need of prayer.

-- Anonymous, May 21, 2004

Dear Pastor I believe it is both wrong and indeed ridiculous to engage in infantile politics from the pulpit. The sacred desk of God is not the place for those who have differing political views with anyone to vent them at the expense of those who have innocently come for a word from the Lord. Whether people accept him or not. George W Bush is the President of the United States of America. In November if the people wish they they the constitutional power to replace him. I have disagreed with the distinguished Professor Bill Dickens on subjects including the War in Iraq but have you ever seen an assault on him from me on this board? Never have and never will. As much as I hate to say this but somebody needs to grow up and face reality. The President is the President until he is changed. Sure feel free to be as critical as you like. That is your constitutional right. But when is enough going to occur. You are entering the longest Presidential campaign in years and all of us around the world will be watching this and all of the attack adds. We will be patient, so can you.

An outsiders opinion

-- Anonymous, May 21, 2004

The quick answer, Rev. Paris, is "no." I am not tired of pastors bashing Bush. Bush is a politician, an elected public figure. Understandably, his politics are subject to debate by others. Politicians have to have a thick skin.

Unfortunately, in America, race is an issue in politics as well as other matters. Bush was elected by 80% of the white evangelical vote. By appealing to this evangelical group, the Republican party was able to bring to gether all classes of people in this particular group more than Ronald Reagan was able to. He did not need the Jewish vote, the Hispanic vote, nor the Black vote to become elected. He will continue to rely on his base so that he can be elected again.

-- Anonymous, May 21, 2004

No I am not tired of ministers "bashing" President Bush. One of Ebony magazine's named "greatest African American preachers" in the U.S." is in my home city, and he is well known to "bash" president Bush, every chance he can, and infuses his "bashing" of the "bushes" with the Word of God. I need to correct myself by stating that this pastor does not "bash" Bush, the person, but "bashes" Bush's policies and his administration. And I agree with everything he says. The truth is the light. I am sorry.

-- Anonymous, May 21, 2004

The irony of the "Bush-Bashing" for AMEs is President Bush happens to be a member of the United Methodist Church. His autobiograppy is titled, "A Charge To Keep", a favorite Methodist hymnal among all traditional Methodists. In fact, one of Bush's closest spiritual advisors is the successful UM pastor and businessman KirbyJohn Caldwell of Houston, TX. I can't recall the name of his church in Houston but Jerryl Payne has this information. Last I checked Rev. Caldwell's congregation is now over 25,000+ and still growing. QED

-- Anonymous, May 21, 2004

I apologize for making the question "President Bush Bashing". It woulds have been better to phrase it as polotics from the pulpit, for indeed it is wrong to support a candidate as it is to bash another. It is obvious that we have strong feelings on thgis subject.

Be Blessed

-- Anonymous, May 22, 2004

Someone made reference to Bush being a "Methodist." Do you remember why this Zion was established? Being a member of the Methodist church does not make him right.

-- Anonymous, May 25, 2004

T. D. -

I made reference to the Methodist credentials of President Bush. AME's are nothing more than United Methodists in theology and liturgy. The fact that a freedman, Richard Allen, was the founder and chief organizer is the only material difference between the two denominations. QED

-- Anonymous, May 25, 2004

The way the UMC is going lately I wouldn't want to link myself to them in any way.

-- Anonymous, May 25, 2004