Pastors - Leaders - Do you Judge Members of your Flock to be in Christ or Not? Do you judge whether or not they are growing in their walks? Do you with all deliberance, council, teach, admonish and encourage individual members, and the congregation as a whole, based on your assessment of their individual and collective needs?

-- Anonymous, February 28, 2004

Answers

Ron I hope that before the parson judgeth the flock he or she consult 2 Cor 13:5.

-- Anonymous, February 28, 2004

Bro Ron, people struggle with areas of sin and yet may still be saved. No one is perfect. Only God knows the condition of people's hearts so it's impossible for a pastor to point to people, all of who claim to be saved, and say "this one is and that one isn't."

What a pastor should do is contained in the second part of your post - determine if they're growing. That should be plain for all to see and can be evaluated. From there they must council, teach, admonish, and encourage each sheep based on individual and collective needs. That's the role of a shepherd.

I'm all about discipleship, and I teach a couple of discipleship classes called Cleansing Stream and Cleansing Stream Discipleship (CSD). I tell my pastor I want to see each one rise up through the levels. If a person isn't saved I encourage them to get saved. If they're living in sin I don't try to figure out if they're saved. I push, pull, challenge, cheerlead, question, beg, teach, rebuke, council, and offer promotions. Anything to move this person to the next level in Jesus. (By the way, many of my posts on this board have the same purpose).

Even if one of my lambs is not living lives of blatant sin I do the same thing. Everyone needs to grow and I'm always trying to think of ways to groom each one for the next level.

In many cases saving the lost is not the weak link in a church. It's discipleship. They're saved only to remain spiritual infants. They may have been saved 10 years, but have they gained 10 years experience or just gained 1 years experience 10 times?

I was gratified to hear Pastor say just the other day that Cleansing Stream and CSD are two programs in our church where he knows discipleship is taking place. To God goes the glory!

-- Anonymous, February 28, 2004

I gave up judging people about 4 to 5 years ago because there is no scriptural basis for it. Only God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit have the ABILITY and AUTHORITY to judge his creation.

I know that man has good and evil in him. Only God is good and for the good to come out of man, he has to be in contact with God. When man is not in contact with God, evil emerges. If holy means living according to God's commandments, then man can be holy. However, if holy means without sin, then man cannot be holy.

Instead of judging, I have opted to pray to the Spirit of God for DISCERNMENT. For I have learned that it is easy to point out others shortcomings but very difficult to confess ones own to God.

As Brother Robert Matthews said in a previous post, " Love is not trying to recreate another in ones own image, rather it is looking at the image that God has made and saying, AMEN".

Jazzman

-- Anonymous, February 28, 2004

What is the proper meaning of "Judge not" as the Scriptures render it. What is the judging which is forbidden? Isn't it the thinking or judging of another in a manner that is contrary to love that is condemned. Isn't it therefore good and proper for me to invite the judgements of my brothers in Christ, even my pastor and teachers as I prayerfully make my way through the valley?

"Now about brotherly love we do not need to write to you, for you yourselves have been taught by God to love each other." (1 Thess 4:9)

Sincerely, In Love, In Christ, Yours Truly,

-- Anonymous, February 28, 2004

When we say judgement I think of making a determination whether a person is going to Heaven or hell. That's God's business. Now if a person makes no claim of salvation there's no mystery. They've told us they're not saved.

But what about the person who claims Christianity? There will be many, some believe most who make this claim who will not make Heaven their eternal home. That's Scriptural. Again though, that's God's determination. If I see problems with their walk I simply encourage them to go higher with God. If I see no problems with their walk I encourage them to do the same. It's a good exhortation for anyone.

Where we get into trouble is in telling those who claim salvation, but with whom we disagree or see a fault, that they're not a real Christian. Then we're playing God.

Now what about other types of judgment? I'd call this evaluation. We need to evaluate others when we determine if a person should be accepted for certain ministries. Is this person a good candidate for children's ministries or elder for example. We evaluate those who wish to court our sons and daughters too. Not every young man can pass the test for my daughter. I'm Dad and I make the call. Not even my daughter can overide that while under my roof.

There are many valid reasons to evaluate the quality of other's Christian walks.

-- Anonymous, February 28, 2004

On another note Ron, the gist of most of your posts seem to be a call to holiness. I appreciate that a lot.

-- Anonymous, February 28, 2004

Dearest Brother RP,

I am warmed and encouraged by your characterization of my posts as I feel that you have fairly judged my intentions. It is a testimony to the power of God's Word, that even in a forum such as this, that words - even hard words - spoken in love, reach the objects of that love and permeates and prevails. "The LORD lives! Praise be to our Rock! Exalted be God, the Rock, our Savior!

It is as you say, that when we say 'judgment', we often jump to the conclusion that it means to determine the destination of someone's immortal soul. More than that, the condemning of any person at all where there is not sufficient evidence; or when we think another is to blame when he is not; or thinking someone's manner of acting is wrong; or condemning a person farther than they deserve, are exactly the types of evil reasonings that pertain to that sinful judging which our Lord guards and admonishes us against; and which we are in the highest degree concerned to avoid, if we love either God or our own souls.

Those however called to love, by Love and for Love's sake, must not, do not, dare I say, cannot, so judge his brother. It is against the very nature of the child of God to so do. What seems equally contradictory to me, is that those in Love would not, for love's sake, submit to the judgement of their beloved in matters of the way, or offer judgment to them. How could that be rightly called love?

Imagine a pastor or leader or saint, gripped by fear, refusing to let his judgement be heard by those lost in the way. Though knowing their error, neither advises them of it or leads them out of it, for fear of sinning, or of being wrongly judged! Can that be rightly called love? Would we have loved ones perish rather than give them the benefit of our loving judgement? I think not.

One last thing. How can we say that we do not judge? How can we believe ourselves when we say it! Would you believe the soul that says it does not eat? Neither can I believe the soul that does not judge. We continuously judge! We judge the head to the toe, the size, the shape, the smell, the color; the inside and the out; words spoken, words not spoken, facial expressions, body language; and everything else that comes within range of our '6' senses. We are judging creatures, like Him whose image we are created in.

So, even as we are conformed to the likeness of His Son, let us pray that as our love matures, it is manifest in all that we do, including in all of our judging.

Sincerely, In Love, In Christ, Yours Truly,

Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. (Matt 7:1-2)

P.S. This is a faithful statement: Jesus WILL judge the quick and the dead!

-- Anonymous, February 28, 2004

Recently our church looked at some men as elder candidates. It was a sifting process to be sure, but at last we arrived at two fine candidates. We looked at whether they tithed, whether they were faithful, personality weaknesses, etc. Of course at the top of the list were the qualifications listed in Scripture.

Once that was done each filled out a lengthy application on personal habits, situation, and beliefs. Next was a rather gruelling (according to one of them) interview. I guess you can say we "judged" them.

At the same time each of us should be open to constructive criticism. If I have a problem I want it to be revealed because it's an obstacle between God and me. Of course some (most?) will prove to be invalid, and will be discarded. But each of us should appreciate "wounds of a friend". Iron sharpens iron. This is where accountability groups come in handy.

-- Anonymous, February 28, 2004

The problem with certifying candidates for a particular ministry arises from trying to identify the proper criteria, as the last post indicated the candidates were judged on whether they "tithed" (according to what standard and how was it verified?) were they "faithful" what does that mean and how do you (especially the poster)or any group dare to say that you can measure one's faithfulness? Personality weakness? what's that? How do you measure a person's personality? Racists for example, aren't all rednecks or blowhards that might be a personality weakness for me, but in the minds of some people it would be a plus? Bottom line what I failed to read in the post was that those who sit in "judgment" took time to examine themselves. For how can we begin to "faithfully" examine the hearts of others when we have not cleansed ourselves? Otherwise this is nothing more than any other job interview where the candidates who answers the most questions right in the minds of the interviewers wins. Is this pleasing to the Lord? Is this according to His Word?

-- Anonymous, February 29, 2004

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-- Anonymous, February 29, 2004

Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

Was the Apostle Paul a Hypocrit? Did he speak out of both sides of his mouth? While professing Christianity, and reminding us of the penalties associated with judgment, did he not always and often render his judgement as to the state of the souls at the churches he wrote to? Wasn't it he who said "Cast the immoral brother out!" Didn't he in several instances rage against the "godlessness and wickness of men, who supress the truth by their wickedness?" Didn't he even suggest that God made some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? Is Paul in danger of the hell-fire? God forbid. Likewise, let us not shrink from our accountability before God and our responsibilities to our brothers. Rather, "Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage-with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths." (2 Tim 4:2-4)

In Love, In Christ,

-- Anonymous, March 01, 2004

I guess that the problem with "our" judgment of others is that we are attempting to decide which pottery is for noble use and which pottery is not. When someone is clearly a purveyor of lies and deceit that may seem simple, but is that person unworthy of God's grace? How do we know? What about the smooth talker? I always question evaluation plans that are subjective and perhaps there is a need for discipline, how do we know it is appropriate?

-- Anonymous, March 02, 2004