Hi, Paul

I received about 10 e-mails saying that you(moderator) deleted 10 different threads I started in the past.

Are you dropping me a hint? :-)

-- - (David@excite.com), November 13, 2003

Answers

.../

-- - (.@.....), November 13, 2003.

I think he's just cleaning house. I got a bunch of deletion messages, too. Though, I couldn't understand why some were being deleted, because they seemed pretty innocent. Not a biggie...

God bless,

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), November 13, 2003.

Same thing here. I thought it was... a conspiracy.

Apparently not. Dang!

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), November 13, 2003.

Same here, too.

The moderator is an equal opportunity delete-er.

And he really is doing a very good job. Thankless as it is sometimes. But, we still love him.

God bless,

-- john placette (jplacette@catholic.org), November 13, 2003.

David and Mateo,

Has this happened recently? I seldom delete entire threads, though I do of course frequently delete specific messages that I consider inappropriate based on the rules of the forum. I have only deleted two threads in the past week. One was a duplicate thread, accidentally posted twice. The other was a thread someone started by cutting and pasting a post of mine from a previous thread, I saw no purpose for it, and apparently neither did anyone else, since no-one responded to it.

Several months back, when I reorganized the thread categories, I did delete a number of threads which were more than two years old, and which were either inappropriate, or simply had never gone anywhere. But that was over 6 months ago, and that was the only time I ever deleted a sizeable number of threads.

If this has been going on recently, I would like very much to hear about it, including if possible the names of the threads that were deleted.

Paul M.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 13, 2003.

P.S. Are you sure the emails were from the moderator of this forum? I just remembered that I myself have received a couple of emails in the past few days, from the moderator of a different Catholic forum, saying that a couple of old posts of mine had been deleted. That one is just called "Catholic Forum". This one is called "Catholic Top Level"

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 13, 2003.

I got about five deletion messages at my current e-mail address and another five at the (still active) former address I used -- each from "Catholic_Moderator@hotmail.com" -- which is no longer an active address. Paul, I just sent you an e-mail inquiry about this. Too bad I didn't come to forum first to see this thread.

Getting mail from "C-M@hotmail.com" told me that either (1) someone was faking e-mail and playing a prank or (2) someone was really deleting threads, and the software was generating e-mail to me.

By using Google to search for one of the threads in question, I just determined that the thread really WAS deleted. By looking at the text of the opening messages of the threads, I can say that there could be no justification for deleting these threads.

I can't help but think that one of two things is true (and I suspect "b" more than "a":
(a) some stranger has figured out the moderator's password and is now destroying the forum by deleting scores of threads, or ...
(b) someone who was formerly a moderator has gone completely insane and is deleting threads, rather than individual posts -- either for revenge or to wipe out all traces of his former existence at the forum.

I recommend that the password be changed AS SOON AS POSSIBLE, Paul, if you are not doing these deletions.

Thank you.
JFG

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), November 13, 2003.

Paul,

Someone(I wonder who?) is wiping out every thread I ever started in forum.

Everything is deleted on 11/13. Here are the name of threads"

(1)"Judgement Day" deleted at 1.19a.m.#2"Prayer request" deleted at 2.00am.#3"Pray request for Mother Angelica deleted 2.48 am.,#4- "Leaving Mass after receiving holy Comminion" deleted 2.03 am, #5"Mortal sin" deleted 2.18 am,#6-"Fasting afer receiving Christ" deleted 2.31 am, #7-"Hail Mary" deleted 2.33am, "#8-"Wasted Suffering. deleted 2.35 am.#9-"Stem cell research", deleted 2.38 am, #10-"Purgatory" deleted 2.49am,#11-"Satan" deleted 2.58 am, #12- "about Jesus", deleted 2.52am, #13-"Saint Michael the Archangel, de;eted 6.24am, 15 St. Bridget prayers, deleted 6.37 am.

Please change your password.

-- - (David@excite.com), November 13, 2003.

I've only had two deletions so far, but those threads are indeed gone.

I'm sure people know this, but in case you don't, if you hit "cached version" at google, you can see them still.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), November 13, 2003.

I have changed the password. I am now the only one who has access to the moderator software. Nothing personal against past moderators, but the present situation leaves me no alternative. I probably should have done this sooner. This change is effective at 8:40 PM E.S.T., 11/13/03. If you receive any additional automated messages concerning deleted threads, please notify me immediately. Thanks and God bless.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 13, 2003.

It is not possible to access ALL old threads via Google's "cache." Google apparently has a time limit -- e.g., keeping track of all threads that have been updated in the last year or two (I'm really not sure what the cut-off is).
This "travesty" will not be allowed to stand -- as the mad deleter will see, to his dismay.
JFG

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), November 14, 2003.

Over 20 of my question threads were deleted as well!

I dont think we should rush and accuse Chris just yet,perhaps it was accidental. I hope he didnt intentionally do such a selfish and destructive act. In any event must we all not try and forgive those who trespass against us?

ps John I didnt get a chance to thankyou for the thread David is reffering to, cheers

while Im here, sorry Deacon Paul for being rude to you :).

God Bless Kiwi

-- just another sinner (csisherwood@hotmail.com), November 14, 2003.

I agree with kiwi.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), November 14, 2003.

Jmj

You're welcome, Kiwi.

Unlike the last (im)poster, I wouldn't be able to agree with your theory that it may have been accidental -- unless the deleter swore that this was true and apologized profusely.

If it was CB, I seriously doubt that a man of such high intelligence could have made such a mistake. Don't forget that he went into each thread that he previously started and removed the opening post. That means that he knows how to remove specific posts and how to avoid deleting entire threads.

By the way, when I first noticed that he had started doing that -- deleting his opening posts (early this year) -- my opinion was that he had no right to do it, since we are unable to do it. I then recommended to the new moderator -- I can't recall if I did it here or by private e-mail -- that he change the password to prevent any more post-deletions and to preclude any other malicious actions that could occur as time went by. Too bad my suggestion was ignored or overlooked. [Too bad my suggestions that certain people be banned keep getting ignored or overlooked also. History has a way of repeating itself. We all know about lots of people who gave good advice, but were ignored -- with disastrous consequences. How much longer will my pleas be ignored or overlooked?]

Here's a new suggestion, which I hope won't be ignored ...
A new password has been established, but only one person knows it. This is not a good idea, since the person could get sick (or even drop dead) one day, or his computer could fail -- leaving the forum unmoderated. My suggestion is that the moderator choose someone who can be trusted with the new password -- either to fill in for him or to pass it along to a new moderator some day -- and my suggestion is Father Michael Skrocki (abounamike@aol.com).

God bless you.
John
PS: If CB deleted all these threads, then it is extremely likely that someone still posting here is partially to blame for it. What do I mean? I doubt that CB has been lurking here, so I doubt that he knew I had restored that opening post for Kiwi ... until someone told him via e-mail or telephone. If it happened that way (triggering mass deletions by CB), someone in addition to CB needs to make a big-time apology to all of us -- and, in my opinion, ought to impose the penance of removing his/her busybody presence from the forum (permanently).

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), November 14, 2003.

John F, I'm honored by your suggestion but I 'm rather busy with my studies. Why not you? In my opinion you would make a good moderator.

-- Fr. Mike Skrocki, JCL (abounamike@aol.com), November 14, 2003.

I also had about 3-4 threads that I started deleted. Couldn't figure out why. One thought that no one has mentioned occurs to me, could this be the work of a program installed by Phil Greenspun to limit the size of the forums because of space issues? Perhaps something is auto-purging threads when space is constrained. Just a thought.

Dave

-- non-Catholic Christian (dlbowerman@yahoo.com), November 14, 2003.

Odd, based on the statistics page, every one of my posts is now gone. With 4 years of postings off and on, that's a few hundred postings at least. But I was able to see a dozen or so just by scanning threads that are still active, so it appears that the statistics page is not accurate. Are we sure we have a "mad deleter" here or just a program or virus problem?

Dave

-- non-Catholic Christian (dlbowerman@yahoo.com), November 14, 2003.

Come to think of it, I could have sworn that there used to be over 200,000 messages on this forum when there are now less than 50,000. Maybe I'm wrong though.

Dave

-- non-Catholic Christian (dlbowerman@yahoo.com), November 14, 2003.

My thread on Perpetual Adoration was deleted and I found out about it via email last night. I also tried to respond via email, but failed as the email address was invalid.

I thought that it was strange to have that thread deleted because there was nothing "bad" in the thread, but I thought maybe it was deleted because no one had posted to it in quite a long time, and it was automatically "cleaned out" due to inactivity.

I REALLY doubt that Chris has anything to do with what has happened here. I haven't had any contact with him for months, but I just consider it highly unlikely.

Carolyn

-- Carolyn (ck_sunshine@hotmail.com), November 14, 2003.

I don't think that speculations concerning the identity of the perpetrator of this cruel act will bear any worthwhile fruit. Besides, nothing can be proven in that regard, no matter how certain someone might be regarding the person's identity. Forgiveness, and prayer for a person with serious problems are really the only appropriate responses.

I am sure that this unfortunate occurence was not: a mistake; an intentional limiting function of the software; or a virus. One thread might be accidentally deleted by someone with the moderator password, if he was careless, but not multiple threads. The moderator software includes instructional material describing the features of the program, what can and cannot be done. If such a limiting function were built in, it surely would be mentioned and explained. If a virus were responsible, I don't see how changing the password would stop it.

John, you are of course absolutely right about the potential problems that might be encountered when just a single person has access. I am already thinking and praying about the need for a co-moderator, or at the very least a backup moderator for times when I am not available. While Fr. Skrocki would obviously have been wonderful, I would have expected that he is pressed for time, given his infrequent visits; and apparently he has already confirmed this.

My personal idea of a suitable person (or persons) would be someone who:

- has an in depth understanding of the Catholic Church's teaching. Not necessarily a degree in theology, but someone who has obviously studied the material and knows what the Church really does, and does not, teach.

- is absolutely committed to obedience and submission to all official Church teaching, doctrinal and disciplinary.

- is fairly level-headed, not overly excitable or iritable, not prone to emotional outbursts, sarcasm, or ad hominem remarks.

- is not easily offended, angered, or intimidated.

- has sufficient time to commit to the job. It doesn't take huge amounts of time, but certainly a few hours a week, and at least daily attention is advisable, preferably a minimum of two or three times a day.

Just a note on the moderator software ... it isn't exactly state-of-the-art. Some of its functions are quite slow, and it lacks some functions it really ought to have. But it gets the job done, once you become familiar with it. I have a fast cable connection, and even then certain functions require a bit of waiting. Doing this with a slow modem would be more than I could endure, and I don't recommend that anyone take on this position with antiquated hardware.

I would welcome, VIA E-MAIL, any opinions regarding people you think should, or should not, be considered as moderator(s). All such opinions will be held in strictness confidence. I may not respond directly to such e-mails, but I will read them and seriously consider them. Please do not post such opinions here on the forum.

Thanks.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 14, 2003.

"I am sure that this unfortunate occurence was not: a mistake; an intentional limiting function of the software; or a virus."

I can verify this as well. On the first thread that was deleted, the person deleting the thread added at the end of the message thread-specific reasoning why the particular thread was on the chopping block. On the subsequent threads, there was no reason mentioned.

Enjoy,

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), November 14, 2003.

I would welcome, VIA E-MAIL, any opinions regarding people you think should, or should not, be considered as moderator(s).

I assume self-nominations are permitted?

I'M KIDDING, I'M KIDDING.

-- jake (j@k.e), November 14, 2003.

Folks,

PLEASE let's not get into an online debate over who would or would not make a good moderator. The final decision will necessarily be mine, but I would like to get everyone's input, PRIVATELY. After all, this is your forum. Use my email address, as shown below.

Also, the criteria for selecting an additional moderator are, as I stated, my own opinions. Feel free to say why these criteria might not apply, or why other criteria should be considered.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 14, 2003.

Paul.

Thanks for having the courage to change the "password" to the Moderators' screen, right away, before any more malious destruction was done.

I am a little unsure about one thing, Paul. Is the new Moderator going to make decesions like you do, or is he going to be used to be a "policeman" Moderator to delete the obvious? ie, porno, foul language, etc...

Thanks in advance.

David S

PS: Carolyn, its people like you why O.J. Simpson is walking the street. Use your God given common sense girl!

-- - (David@excite.com), November 14, 2003.

Hello David,

That remains to be seen, depending on what the additional moderator is confortable with and capable of. Some possibilities are:

- The moderators share all responsibilities equally, conferring on major decisions which need to be made.

- One moderator makes major administrative decisions such as formatting the forum and banning people when necessary, while the other moderator primarily deletes offensive material as it appears.

- The "backup" moderator doesn't do anything except when I am on vacation or otherwise unavailable.

I am open to any of the above, or any combination thereof, or any other arrangement that might be suggested. We'll have to see how, once we decide who.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 14, 2003.

Paul,

Thanks for answering my question.

I am going to ask another one. I hope you don't mind.

Wouldn't it make sense to see who wants the job first before people give there opinion to you? Maybe most of the e-mails you get will be for people who arn't even interested in this moderating job.

Please be careful about who you pick Paul, because we all seen the damage that can be done when the wrong person(even years later) disagrress with different indivuals.

I am so glad I started that thread to you bcause we could of lost hundreds more of threads if it went on for another night or two.

Also, Paul, why not start a thread(that you can delete at a later date) and lets vote on this so everyone can vote in a Moderator (helper to you).

Lets give every"regular" poster a vote and lets see the results for ourselves. I think you do a very fair job as Moderator, Paul. I have much respect for you as a Catholic and as a man.

Just my opinion and no more.

God bless you

-- - (David@excite.com), November 14, 2003.

David B.

Hi, I hope all is well. I don't think Mr. Greenspun had anything to do with this malious deletions.He even gave us more space last year in forum.

I have sent him a e-mail.(with this thread) Hope he posts sometime in the future about this. He has in the past responded about my questions about this forum. He strikes me as a fair guy that would say if he deleted a chunk of forum.

God bless you

-- -= (David@excite.com), November 15, 2003.

It's funny that my post on this thread is deleted. I see two possibilities for this:

1. Someone in contact with Richard (who started the forum) is deleting things. Paul, just so you're aware, the forum starter can *always* get the forum password e-mailed to the e-mail address used to start the forum, so there is no way to "lock out" the forum originator, or for that matter, anyone the forum originator wants to give the new password to.

2. Paul M. is deleting things and not revealing it. I rather doubt this, but who knows?

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), November 15, 2003.

Frank,

Please correct me if I am wrong. Richard is not Catholic. Isn't he from the Anarchist forum?

-- - (David@excite.com), November 15, 2003.

David,

I think he started the original "Anarchy" forum too, but don't know why he couldn't be a Catholic who is interested in Anarchy, or Anarchists.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), November 15, 2003.

Frank,

I guess in time we will see.

God bless you

-- - (David@excite.com), November 15, 2003.

Varios de mis mensajes fueron borrados según una notificación supestamente del Moderador.

Hay gentes inútiles y estúpidas que les gusta perder el tiempo enviando mensajes con insultos, estupideces y borrando cosas que no les gustan. Se ve que no tienen que hacer. Bien dice un dicho español: LA OCIOSIDAD ES LA MADRE DE TODOS LOS VICIOS.

Enrique

-- Enrique Ortiz (eaortiz@yahoo.com), November 15, 2003.

Enrique, I am sorry to read that you too have been informed of the deletion of some of the threads you started. Your closing proverb is interesting: "Idleness is the mother of all vices."

Fr. Michael, I am flattered that you think I would do well as a moderator. However, I can tell you, without fear of contradiction, that hardly anyone else would agree with you. I speak up so much -- and I'm so outspoken (never holding anything back) -- that almost no one would think that I am capable of moderating the forum. I had to smile when I read Paul's "qualifications," some of which appear to have been written specifically to disqualify me! I'm not offended. At least I pass the test of not being able to be intimidated! (By e-mail, long in the past, I did volunteer to help the last two moderators strictly with the deletion of any posts left by our former imposter and any posts containing obscenities. From one, I received no reply; from the other, I received a polite declining of the offer.)

Even if the situation were the opposite -- and nearly everyone wanted me to do be a moderator -- I'd have to decline because of the unpredictability of my (office) workload. Sometimes I have to be away from here for 24 to 36 or even 48 hours -- except for a few minutes to update a saints-of-the-day thread. I also don't have a high-speed cable connection at home.

In light of these things I've said, please do not write to Paul to nominate me or to speak against me. There's no point wasting your time or Paul's in doing that. Thanks.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), November 15, 2003.

David S.

I was very sorry to read your comment to me. It made me very sad. To equate something like the OJ Simpson case with my expressing my opinion about whether or not Chris had anything to do with what was going on is a HUGE escalation. The crime that was committed was absolutely horrible. And for the record I believe that justice was NOT served in the case, and that OJ was wrongly acquitted.

Regardless of my opinion on the OJ Simpson case however, for you to say what you did to me was insulting and escalating. My opinion may be different from yours but I did not insult you or anyone else in you expressing your opinion. I also posted my opinion BEFORE Paul said that we should not debate it here. I have not said anything about it since.

I guess that I have lost your respect David, but we have all said things on this forum that in hindsight were better left unsaid. And though the threads are now gone, I did apologize for my words.

While we hold different opinions on a variety of subjects, your comment to me was uncalled for and undeserved. A simple "I disagree Carolyn" would have been sufficient. And that's fine as you are entitled to your opinion.

I guess I'd just better go and work on trying to use my God given common sense since I obviously can't seem to do it here. Sarcasm intended.

Carolyn

-- Carolyn (ck_sunshine@hotmail.com), November 16, 2003.

Carolyn,

Your right. I apologise about my sacastic remark to you.

I just can't believe all those threads are gone. And what is obvious to me, obviously isn't obvious to you. And you are entitled too your opinion.

Sorry about that. And I didn't loose any respect for you. I respect any Lady that is a good Mom of five like you.

God bless you, and yours.

-- - (David@excite.com), November 16, 2003.

Thank you David. I accept your apology and forgive you. And you know what? I really appreciate you being able to hear what I said. And not just dismissing me. Thank you. We may have different opinions, but I most certainly agree with you that it is hard to believe that all those threads are gone. That is very sad as these were some very good threads.

Thanks David for encouraging me in my vocation as a mom. I love it, and I try very hard to be a good mom but sometimes it can be overwhelming and exhausting. But your words here really encouraged me in it tonight, and I kind of needed it. Thanks.

I'm sorry for my sarcasm. I felt hurt, but I was wrong to be sarcastic. I'm very sorry. I hope that you can accept my apology.

In God's love, Carolyn

-- Carolyn (ck_sunshine@hotmail.com), November 16, 2003.

Carolyn,

Thanks for the kind words and forgivnes.

Wishing you and your family a blessed Thanksgiving day coming in 10 days. Take care of yourself and don't work to hard with all the cooking and cleaning up.[ You must need a 21 lb, bird with all those mouths to feed :-)]

God bless you

-- - (David@excite.com), November 17, 2003.

I think the trick to Thanksgiving is having everyone help in some capacity with the meal. That way *everyone* is in the kitchen and snacking ahead of time, so that when dinner is finally ready, no one is really that hungry.

Works for me,

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), November 17, 2003.

Frank,

It might work for you, and your family. What if your family was as big as eight or so hungry bellies? Thats a lot of people to be messing around in kitchen.

Everyone would be getting in each others way. Thats what the football games are for.

God bless President Bush, and our brave soldiers fighting for Iraq's freedom.May they enjoy Thanksgiving as well as they can.

-- - (David@excite.com), November 20, 2003.

David,

As a kid there were NINE of us, and when we were older we used to meet at the parents' house with our families, and there were a LOT of people milling around, getting in the way, pinching food that my ma would go nuts about, etc. It was and is part of the fun!

Of course it might not be for everyone

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), November 20, 2003.

Hi Im trying to find an old thread which which presented objections to "natural law", I put considerable time into this thread and some excellent feedback was given, especialy from Chris Butler, sadly and selfishly I think he may have deleted the entire thread. Does anyone know how to find old deleted threads via google's "cache" as John G did as the "thread restorer" as Im trying to put together a few thoughts and need to access this thread.

Peace and Blessings

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), April 21, 2004.

hey kiwi, long time no see.

you might want to email john about that. his address is still the same as it used to be.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), April 21, 2004.

Hi Kiwi, good to "see" you.

I've found two threads in our archives which have the term "natural law" in them. I don't think either is the one you are looking for but just in case they are, you can peruse them here:

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00AZUV

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00BrHN

I don't know how John found the deleted threads, but I think there may have been a time limit on how far he was able to go back and retreive them.

-- Ed (catholic4444@yahoo.ca), April 21, 2004.

Hi Paul yes its been a while alright, Ive missed all you guys!Bored shitless teaching,Ive been having a ball off chasing adventure and big money exploration nickel/gold minning in outback Western Australia after not making the cut into Med school in NZ. Back to wind up Bill Nelson though, as Im on break in Perth for a few days! Hope the study and life in general is treating you well.

Ed likewise nice to "hear" your own dulcet considered tones!LOL Thanks for the help I havent be able to open the links but Ill try them again soon I think this computer is playing up if unsucessful Ill get in touch with John directly.

Peace!!

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), April 21, 2004.

Welcome back, Kiwi!

Pax Christi, Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), April 21, 2004.

Why thankyou Bill and likewise ;). JOhn topping for you, any ideas?

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), April 25, 2004.