Looks like Arnold is just as skilled at politics as he is on the big action screen. The black church in California was solidly against the recall (FAME in particular). All of the big time Democratic all stars (ex-Prez Clinton, Rev. Jesse Jackson, Sr.) campaigned against the recall. The LA Times' last minute journalistic hand grendade about Schwarzneggar's "problem with women" proved to have boomeranged. MSNBC reports that 85% of the people who voted in the recall voted to get rid of Davis! The landslide results show that Californians solidly rejected Davis and prefer the "serial grouper". The opponents of the recall look rather sheepish. Here is yet another example where the black church was on the wrong side of an important public topic. QED

-- Anonymous, October 08, 2003

Answers

Perhaps you are right about the recall, but I don't understand your reasoning about the black church being on the wrong side. Is it because they were of the minority opinion?

-- Anonymous, October 08, 2003

Bill,

The fact that those of and in the world are in error is by no means an indication of the failure of the church. Nor is it any indication that the church is wrong. Rather, it signals the signs of the times in which we live and the great work that believers still must do.

When the president of a democratic nation can control and contrive an entire election and crown himself king then lead that nation into what appears to be an unjustifiable war, spending billions of the nation's tax dollars and human recources on it, then we see the truth of what Jesus has taught.

So we remember Jesus words in Matthew 7:13-15.

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and BROAD is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and MANY there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and NARROW is the way, which leadeth unto life, and FEW there be that find it. BEWARE of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Those of us who follow Jesus have no problem being numbered with the few. Even though we may stand ALONE, we are confident that we stand with GOD.

These are just signs of the time.

-- Anonymous, October 08, 2003

It would be interested in knowing how many AMEs are registered to vote in california and how many of them actually did vote. My other thought was did the African American leadership made any effort to get those who are registered to vote but could nto get to the polls, had encouraged or seen that they voted by absentee ballot and were arrangements made for those persons who may have had difficulty to get to the polls because of transportation, do so? We keep talking about voting and rallying around a candidate, but how much of an effort is put into the other means such as absentee voting and setting up ride shares. Just my thoughts.

-- Anonymous, October 08, 2003

Robert opines -

"Those of us who follow Jesus have no problem being numbered with the few. Even though we may stand ALONE, we are confident that we stand with GOD." Interesting thought but it presupposes that supporters of Gray Davis were morally correct in their opposition to the recall. Are those Christians who voted against Gray Davis guilty of spiritual treason? I think not. When you consider the cascade of events which tarnished Gray's administration it is not at all surprising that the majority of the voters desired change and not a return to the status quo. Political recalls promote accountability for the incumbent. The lesson of the Parable of Talents teaches us the importance of accountability and productivity. Davis was similar to the unproductive worker who chose not to invest his initial endowment of one talent and at the time of accountability showed zero growth. For that he, like Davis, was correctly chastised. The voters in CA exercised their constitutional rights to recall an inept political leader and, surprisngly, it worked! Now what if recalls were possible for elected officials in the AMEC. I would predict that threat would produce a different type of behavior.

I see nothing immoral or anti-Biblical about requiring elected officials to be responsible in their position when it comes to evaluating their role as public stewards. Gray Davis did not take the recall serious when signatures were being collected in the early phase. He dismissed the possibiiity that CA courts would ok the signatures. He was initially oppossed to the recall being held in October. When you combine his spectacular myopia about the recall and his personal misnmanagement of CA's fiscal affairs it not surprising to me that today we talk about Gray Davis as the ex- Governor of California. The black church is largely a puppet of the Democratic Party. Davis's last minute appearances at some of the prominient black churches in CA raises serious questions in my mind about separation of church and state matters. I did not see or read where these prominent black churches invited Governor-elect Schwarzeneggar or any of the other 60+ candidates to come and visit their congregation as a form of political support. I firmly believe it is wrong to bring politics into the House of God. I have served as an advisor on several brass-knuckle political campaigns (non- church) where the stakes were very high. Politics takes no prisoners. We like to pretend in our churches that church politics is slightly different because we are doing it in a Christian environment. Good luck to those who believe that church politics is innocuous. Several of the aforementioned churches chose a path that I simply do not endorse. By not giving equal time to others is a form of partianship. I feel this is equally wrong. Jay Leno at least gave all of the candidates equal time one evening non his late night show.

Finally, in response to Mary's observation, being in the minority of the recall vote showed that Davis supporters were wearing rose colored glasses and operating in a politically delusional state of mind. The results concluded that outlook was wrong. There is no if, ands and buts that the black church is firmly wedded to the Democratic Party. To each his/her own. The consequences however, as was shown on Tuesday, are you will be on the wrong side of the debate when you make that choice. QED

-- Anonymous, October 09, 2003

Bill you really are on target about the effect Re-Call would have on AME elected officials. It will be a long timing coming but it will come. African American Leaders - Most of the so-called, some are self- appointed leaders have either lost touch with reality or was never connected with it. Black Americans no longer can be led by rhetoric and shouting (yelling). The black folk who vote consistently examine the facts and candidates, and then vote accordingly. In most cases they may be silent until arriving at the voting booth. One of our bishops bashed President (then Governor)Bush in a sermon in Austin Texas. He received little or no positive response. It was so noticable that he remarked that some of us were supporters of the President because our jobs were at stake. I suggest that we are no longer locked into what Rev. Wayne Perryman calls "Unfounded Loyalty" in his book An In-depth Look Into the Love Affair between Blacks and Democrats. Personally, I have allways voted based on what I thought was best for our nation, state, and all people. I consider that at least 90% of the actions taken by our governing officials will either help or hurt all of the people, black or white. For example, the democrats love to point out that republicians are pro-business. If the economical situation improves for business, that will help the entire nation of course. If the present situation has taught us anything, unemployment for some equals unemployment for all. The reverrse is also true. It is time for us to stop thinking in terms of a black monolith.

Be Blessed

-- Anonymous, October 10, 2003

Very interesting! For the church this is a great debate. I am referring to this conversation regarding the election of Arnold as governor of the great state of California fueled by Brother Dickens. If I am understanding what I am reading; the AME church made up of mostly african americans, is precieved to vote with and for the democratic party on most matters of government. I know this is not a fact. The landscape is changing and I feel that unless the majority of voters come to the same decision that no candidate will win by an overwhelming margin. Arnold said the right thing at the right time! I furthur know that sometimes registered democrats when all alone at the polling booth remember what was said and how the positions taken will effect their families. For most voters it was the fact the Davis was going to raise car registration taxes again and that didn't seat well. They said so on election day. We respect our leaders, however in the end we think about the effects our right to vote will have on our homes, communities and churches. I also have talked with my republican brothers and sisters and they say if Arnold doesn't do what he said he would they would began a recall on him. What have we started? Thank you for opening this debate Brother Dickens.

-- Anonymous, October 10, 2003

"Davis's last minute appearances at some of the prominient black churches in CA raises serious questions in my mind about separation of church and state matters. I did not see or read where these prominent black churches invited Governor-elect Schwarzeneggar or any of the other 60+ candidates to come and visit their congregation as a form of political support. I firmly believe it is wrong to bring politics into the House of God. I have served as an advisor on several brass-knuckle political campaigns (non- church) where the stakes were very high. Politics takes no prisoners. We like to pretend in our churches that church politics is slightly different because we are doing it in a Christian environment. Good luck to those who believe that church politics is innocuous. Several of the aforementioned churches chose a path that I simply do not endorse. "

Ouch....you are talking about my church and pastor.....

Pastor Murray does *not* allow politicians to campaign from the pulpit (you can lose your 501c3 unless you allow equal access)....All politicians and celebs are welcome to worship with us.

In the case of Gray Davis (who, by the way, was NOT a candidate in this last election), he asked if he could come. Arnold's people tried to dictate when they would come. The other 130-0dd candidates didn't even ask.

Unfortunately, ever since Dubya came to visit after he won the election, no major Republican has stopped by to say hi or help with any of our 41 ministries. I guess they figured that freeing us was enough.......

The other issue in California is that this season's color is BROWN, not Black.........We are no longer the tide-swinging minority.

-- Anonymous, October 10, 2003

Parson Harper opines -

"Pastor Murray does *not* allow politicians to campaign from the pulpit (you can lose your 501c3 unless you allow equal access)....All politicians and celebs are welcome to worship with us.

In the case of Gray Davis (who, by the way, was NOT a candidate in this last election), he asked if he could come. Arnold's people tried to dictate when they would come. The other 130-0dd candidates didn't even ask."

As usual, our distinguished moderator makes a significant contribution. Both he and Felecia are California residents and they have no doubt endured much over the last few months concerning the circus of events which culminated in Gray's rejection on Tuesday. I appreciate both viewpoints coming from the West Coast. Of course it goes without saying that Parson Paris and I share similar political views when it comes to looking at the crippling dependency between black mainline churches and the Democratic Party. I too vote based on the issues and as a consequence I have supported and even voted for some Democrats, much to the chagrin of my GOP colleagues.

Now Harper's observation merits a reasonable response and point of clarification. He is absolutely correct concerning the issue of directly endorsing political candidates. This will imperil an organization's 501(c)(3) status. However, my point addresses the issue of de facto endorsements not "de jure" endorsements. Most churches will not openly endorse a candidate. FAME is no different and their illustrious senior minister & pastor would not tolerate such activity. But, just like in the case of ordaining gay ministers, there are ways to achieve the same goals without necessarily violating the underlining principles. We will not openly endorse a cadidate from the pulpit yet the fact that a particular candidate visits a prominent congregations carries significant connotations. Now if Gray Davis desires to worship at FAME or any church that is his right and I hope his worship experience at FAME will meet his spiritual needs much like it met mine when I visisted the same congregation in 1999. However, my political instincts suggest that Mr. Davis was not at FAME as an invisible visitor nor was he there as a guest at the local Lay Meeting or even to learn when the next Quarterly Conference will be held. Mr. Davis's visit was designed for one thing and one thing only, to resurrect his efforts to defeat the recall. In my view this constitutes an indirect or de facto endorsement. His very presence signals a political agenda. Whenever the results of a "special visitor" redirects our thought process away from the essense of worship, it is for me at least always problematic. QED

-- Anonymous, October 11, 2003

I have a policy at Macedonia that all are welcome to worship with us but I do not allow them to address the congregation in the worship experience. If they wish to speak, we make other arrangements to address the entire community. I do this because most politicians feel they can tailor the message to the black or white audience. The local UMC pastor and I enjoy hearing the response when we will not allow the "tailoring" effect since we are all Methodists.

-- Anonymous, October 11, 2003