I was listening to a talk show featuring ministers from several denominations. The were discussing the issue of a gay bishop being elected to the Episcopal Church.

Each minister beat around the bush not wanting to say that in today's world, the church is a business.

One minister mentioned that pressure from gay parishioners who would leave the denomination accounted for much of the reasoning the bishop was elected.

My question is this, would other denominations falter for other issues?

Is the church a business?

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2003

Answers

Carolyn -

The church does have some quasi-business characteristics (i.e. employs workers, provides a market service, adopts certain financial accounting standards, etc.) but for the most part the church is NOT a business. I base this conclusion on the empirical observation that the churches are not profit-maximizing entities (tax-exempt status precludes such goals), indifferent to meeting customer satisfaction (church member welfare), are typically risk-averse in strategic planning, reluctant to let parishoners participate in key decision making (pastors have imperial "powers") and generally resistent to change and technology. The basis for most denominations to adopt non- Scriptural habits and norms is due to the church being a political entity not a business entity. It would appear for some that compromising our theological convictions for political popularity is a worthwhile endeavor. I for one, respectfully dissent from this line of reasoning. QED

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2003

Counterpoint!

The church IS a business.

The product: The marketing arm of Salvation.

The target market: the unsaved.

Mission statement: Seek and save the lost.

And while the church may be 501c3, so is the Red Cross, and THEY were able to squander millions of dollars, making them the Enron of Non-profits.

As to whether or not losing the gay dollar was a factor in ordaining the gay bishop, no one but the board of that church and God know.

There are churches across the planet who ARE afraid of losing the gay dollar. I pray for them, because they are making Money their god.

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2003

If the churches should be discouraged from making spiritual decisions based upon financial & other contributions then it cannot be considered a business.

The Church certainly has CHARACTERISTICS of a business however it should not be considered a business. Businesses are ran based upon supply & demand. Businesses determine what their products or services will be based upon their target market or niche. The Gospel is based upon Jesus Christ whose message of salvation remains the same whether its popular or not.

To say that salvation is a product minimizes the fact that salvation is a supernatural position one MUST chose and that choice has ETERNAL implications. This is very much unlike a business that offers products & services today & may be gone tomorrow based on the environment. The Gospel shouldn't change based upon the environment.

I think comparing the precepts and Gospel of God through Jesus Christ dilute's the message of our churches & therefore debates like this one seem relevant and ligitimate.

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2003

One of the problems moving the church into the 21st Century is that we are thinking with 19th Century minds, pretending that we are still in the 19th Century. Consider the following ANALOGY:

McDonald's, Hardees, Jack-in-the-Box, Burger King, Carl's Jr. Sonic, and Wendy's offer pretty much the same food. They each serve a hamburger: beef, bread, onions, cheese, lettuce, tomato, and condiments. What makes YOU, the consumer, choose one restaurant over the other? Is it proximity (You are hungry, it was close, you stopped in)? Is it price? Is it quality? Is it tradition?

IN THE SAME WAY, people (like it or not) choose churches in the same manner. They needed to hear the Word (spiritual food) and your church was close, so they stopped in. Your church doesn't look down on them for coming in as they are, and doesn't beg each Sunday for money (the price). Your pastor preaches from the Word of God, and not the Word of man (quality). Their grandparents and parents were A.M.E., and so they are too (tradition).

If you are not providing the type of "spiritual burger" your customers want, they will leave (AND THEY ARE!!!)

How do you find out what they need? We conduct a church survey (That's called Market Research)

If the mission/goal is to seek and save the lost (both biblical and doctrinal), you can do two things: GO OUT AND GET THEM (door knocking - there's a forgotten concept), or ADVERTISE programs, ministries, or actual media ads. (That's called Marketing).

Once they have come, you have to keep them there (That's called SELLING), so they want to come back.

You may not want to admit that business concepts can and sometimes must be applied to the church, but they do.

The days of holding fish fries to raise money for the church are over. We need to think on global terms. We need to think outside the slavery mentality. We need to quit pretending the world has changed and move on. We need to go back to the library or to the university and pick up a book. The other denominations have.

One last thought:

The Bible teaches several social and economic principles through parable and direct command. Here is a favorite of mine.

The Bible demonstrates the concept of communism in its purest form. When the disciples met, they brought those things that they had in excess and placed them in a pile. Each then took from the pile what they needed.

"From each, according to his ability, to each according to his need."

Bro. Bill, where are you?

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2003

Parson Harper -

"Bro. Bill, where are you?"

Answer - Right here, reading with curiousity and amusement your passioned defense for the church as a "business". Parson Harper, the church is no more a business than CA Gov. Grey Davis is a businessman in his feeble attempt to avoid the upcoming recall vote (LOL) Are you and Parson Barta ready for Governor Terminator? I read on yesterday Arnold has recruited a top economic advisory team consisting of Warren Buffet and George Schultz. I can't wait for the recall vote in October and hope the politically-inspired ACLU motion is rejected by the Federal Court. Oh, this thread is not about the CA recall vote but the church as a business.

Yes, the story about a communal sharing of resources described in the Book of Acts conveys a primitve message about economic collectivism (not communism since St. Peter was not the tyrannical despot like Communist "leaders" Lenin, Stalin, Mao or Tito). I conceded in my initial entry to this thread that the church does possess some quasi- busness features but for the most part due to the unique organization of churches the analogy has important limits. Now the marketing emphasis you make about recruiting and retaining members and/or the unsaved is quite true. Pastors must exhibit some form of entrepreneurial skill to "compete" for parishoners. You are to be commended for pointing out these similarities. However, the case for church as busines remains incomplete.

Consider the fine contribution by Rev. Nicole. She correctly rejects the link based on the principles of supply and demand. While I could make the case that the supply of salvation is perfectly elastic resulting in a "fixed price for God's Grace", her basic argument is still true. I don't think she is a former economics student of mine, yet she has undoubtedly been influenced by some of my professional writings :-) By the way Nicole, I know you and Larry Clark are from the 3rd District in Ohio and based on the latest report about the NorthEast/Midwest Power Outage, the Buckeye State is now considered the cause of the massive cascading blackout. I suppose there are "power" hungry Ohioians in more ways than one :-) QED

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2003

Interesting points of view on the subject matter. I will have to agree with Brother Harper on his attributes of marketing. My church is in the process of surveying parishioners to determine how we will begin marketing in the upcoming year.

In the process of doing so I had to wonder what our limit as a "church" was to marketing and promotions. How would that be perceived? The question of competing for members was addressed. It was answered that out of the millions of people that live in our city, there is a large per cent that have NO church home.

I have often wondered why the AME church as a whole doesn't market ourselves better. I was talking to a group of youth who were back from a trip to New York. They were surprised to learn that one of their favorite performers "LL Cool J" was AME. I also told them that Brian McKnight, Smokie Norful, Kim Fields and other "celebrities" were AME. They were so excited to feel that connection with these people.

Why wouldn't the AME church produce a promotional pieces with people like this stating they are proud to be AME? This would at least spark the interest of people throughout the community.

Some people are afraid to enter a church and therefore often times miss the good news of God. Yes the church does extend beyond the walls to reach out to people, but our ultimate goal is to bring people into the church.

Most businesses are successful because they have branded an image. What image does the AME church need to create and promote?

-- Anonymous, August 18, 2003

That's waht I like about this forum we can disagree to agree. Well I think was set up to save the lost, care for the poor and spread the good news to all. Somehow we have allowed the World enter in our churches and we bow to their way of thinking. 1) God gave each of us a talent to be use for His Kingdom building,, I cam having problems with people charging the church to work, jaintors this is a job we can all do, since we say we love the church, lets clean it up. 2) Musician if God has blessed you with this talent use it for His Glory without pay. 3) Secretary, you have a talent of organizing a gift from God, then way are you charging the church for using something God gave you to help build His kingdom. So you see we have turn the church inot a business, it's suppose to be a place of refuge, to go and get lifted, fed (the word), and hear the Good News from on high. We have allowed our churches to be ran as a business, The answer will be yes and no. zgod help us for waht we have turn His Temple into.

-- Anonymous, August 19, 2003

I can understand a church having a full paid staff which include a secretary, janitor, etc. For churches who have after school programs and the doors are open on a daily basis these positions are needed. The pay that the staff of the church I attend is small but a gesture of appreciation.

-- Anonymous, August 19, 2003

What about the church being a place in which money is exchanged for goods and services? I have always felt that if there is a budget and finance committee, interactions with other business for goods and services, the selling of wares and products (tapes, books, cds, cakes, chicken dinners, etc.), any type of marketing for church growth and demographic assesments, basic supply and demand, and salary considerations, then the entity is a business. I understand in the world of econonmics that the church might have characteristics that make it seem like a quasi-business, but in the world I live in, parishoners can be like shareholders. If the money is being ill spent and used to undermine growth and investments AND if no one sees a profit (be it physical or spiritual), there is no harmony and the CEO (or pastor if you will), is going to be reconsidered for another job elsewhere. The exchange of money makes me believe that the church is a business. If we had more business sense, we might not be in the financial straits we are in today.

-- Anonymous, August 19, 2003

What about the church being a place in which money is exchanged for goods and services? I have always felt that if there is a budget and finance committee, interactions with other business for goods and services, the selling of wares and products (tapes, books, cds, cakes, chicken dinners, etc.), any type of marketing for church growth and demographic assesments, basic supply and demand, and salary considerations, then the entity is a business. I understand in the world of econonmics that the church might have characteristics that make it seem like a quasi-business, but in the world I live in, parishoners can be like shareholders. If the money is being ill spent and used to undermine growth and investments AND if no one sees a profit (be it physical or spiritual), there is no harmony and the CEO (or pastor if you will), is going to be reconsidered for another job elsewhere. The exchange of money makes me believe that the church is a business. If we had more business sense, we might not be in the financial (and spiritual) straits we are in today.

-- Anonymous, August 19, 2003