I've decided to stop posting on this forum. Time to get out and smell the roses. :-)

I suspect though, that you may see a few more posts from me, courtesy the forum impersonator. If that happens, I hope the posts are expeditiously deleted and are not taken seriously by anyone.

I enjoyed the discussions on this board very much, particularly the long debates I and others had with Christian Soldier on predestination, and with Kevin and Emerald on invincible ignorance. It was fun, and I learnt a lot, about the things that really matter.

As a precaution against fake emails being sent using my name, let me state here that I will send NO unsolicited emails from this account.

God bless you all. Keep up the good work.

-- Stephen (StephenLynn999@msn.com), August 11, 2003

Answers

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-- Stephen (StephenLynn999@msn.com), August 11, 2003.

Stephen, we do not agree, but I thank you for your patience in discussion, and that I believe your sincerity.

To the relief of all, I also hereby withdraw from the forum for another reason: I do not, in all honesty, think it is God's will for me to engage in continuous and protracted debates over the Faith. I believe that far more would be accomplished if I took my own advice and entrusted the good of all souls to the Virgin Mother for salvation.

It is completely unclear to me when and where debate is appropriate, and when it isn't.

I extend my hand of friendship to Mateo, who I do respect despite our disagreements. I also wish to express to John Gecik that I do not hate him and that I wish the best of what the Holy Ghost has to offer.

Also, I wish all good graces to the rest of you that I have engaged in textual combat with, including my wife's cousin, and Theresa, and the best to you David S., leaving out no-one.

Gail and Ian... =)

I really mean it this time... lol! It's enough. God wants it, I can feel it.

Always will I believe that there is no salvation outside Christ's Church; always will I believe that the complete renunciation of this life in favor of the next life is the prerequisite for salvation, even if I fail in the practice of it, and I do.

Adios!

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), August 11, 2003.

Silence is Golden. j/ks :)

Hi Emerald may peace be with you.

Come back soon but before hand....

Destroy: your utter conviction in isloated naked floating historical doctrinal propositions to which you must "believe" without appreciating that Christian doctrine is and always has been very much dependant on the culture and time in which we live. Its not modernism its not relativism, its Catholicism as its always been and always will be . I truely believe bascially youve confused a modern reactionary ideology you give assent to and tried to reconcile it with ancient texts while parading it some sort of search for the truth.AS weve seen it makes for poor theology from you.

But thats just my view and well you probably think Im just a liberal bafoon and I certainly wont deny youre a much smarter man than I. Thats why I get so frustrated.

Please..

Search: The humility to realise our own lack of intellectual rigor but also prophetic insight to see the direction of that change which bothers us is in fact not a contradiction of Gods will. Try a new spiritual approach is my plea and dont vote with you feet please ! Just reflect, put the books away for a while, spend some time with your children, they must think their Dads hands are joined to the keyboard. Try "waiting in patience", waiting in community is an act of faith far braver than your current position IMHO. Please refelct on the thoughts of that most blessed of Popes, Pope John XXIII: simple piety, peasant shrewdness, genuine humour, love of people, a subtle intelligence all traits I know and love so well in you, but also bring to them a vision of positive HOPEFULL love of todays Church and the Church of the future.

I petition the world in the words of the apostles:Lord teach us to pray.

BTW thankyou for everything

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), August 11, 2003.

Stephen THANKYOU for your efforts here, especaily for your many links to excellent sources, youll be missed. Blessings and hope you return when things improve.

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), August 11, 2003.

"Christian doctrine is and always has been very much dependant on the culture and time in which we live"

says it all, me thinks. 2,000 AD, its OK for gay bishops (some "Christians"), 3,000 AD Catholic Church no longer believes in anything,...

have you listened to a single word Emerald has said, Kiwi.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), August 11, 2003.

and btw

it is a travesty that JFG left this forum, and it is great to see him back

it is a contuining travesty that Eugene continues to wthhold his views

it is a travesty that both Stephen and Emerald are withdrawing

and it would be a travesty if Kiwi decided to leave the forum

when JFG and Emerald lock horns, our Lord and Our Lady must smile. to have such great Catholics going ten to the dozen about Mother Church. what reverence.

so, instead of allowing this forum to disintegrate, why not tuen the spotlight on the real villans. the "non-Christian Daves" of this world?

a Catholic forum for Catholics. so that poor, poor Catholics lime myself can learn from truly great Catholics like Stephen, Emerald, Eugene, JFG and Kiwi. and all the other stalwarts of this site -- who are too numerous to mention.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), August 11, 2003.

Oh, Yes-- depression!
Lowering the bar is just fine for you. In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), August 11, 2003.

Hi Ian

"Christian doctrine is and always has been very much dependant on the culture and time in which we live"

Yes perhaps this statement could be very easily misunderstood from me, it was not my intention please add the words "OUR PERCEPTION of Christian doctrine....

Ian please realise that the Church herself, NOT ME, believes that theology is never written in a vacuum, it was this point I was trying to make as Emerald refuses to take such considerations into account when trying to fnd ancient evidence to support his ideology.

In the words of the Second Vatican Council theology must seek "a profound understanding of revealed truth without negleting contact with its own time

Ps I dont think its fair to label non Catholic Dave as a villian and believe me when I say Im not a great Catholic: either in how I live my life nor my knowledge of Church teachings. As youve seen I occasionaly over react and my prayer life is not what it should be. My only real skill is the ability to read and digest rather large volumes of complex information very quickly, which may create the (false ) impresssion that I "know" very much at all.

God Bless

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), August 11, 2003.

Hi Kiwi,

I was a bit worried about your initial wording (culture-dependent doctrine), and am glad you clarified (perception of doctrine).

Hi Ian,

I'd like to echo what Kiwi wrote regarding "non-Catholic Dave." Dave seems to be quite a friendly contributor, he is up-front when asking questions and giving his opinions, and tends to use his intellect instead of his emotions when posting.

God bless you guys,

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), August 11, 2003.

yep. non-Christian Dave is a great guy.

here he is slamming Catholic teaching: http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00BAkF

think "wolf in sheep's clothing". that's the point i am trying to make; much in the same way as the point has been made about Elpidio, time and time again. lurking in the shadows. feeding as we sleep.

not a big point; but i do not understand why we tolerate this and, with the same breath, alienate good Catholics.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), August 12, 2003.

Hi Ian,

Well, I would have been happier if he didn't compare Catholics defending NFP to Bill Clinton. I still stand by my previous post.

I suppose it's subjective, but I don't consider his posts to be proselytizing. Dave doesn't agree with all Catholic teachings; but, I do think that his behavior on that thread is consistent with the goals of the forum. He asks questions about Catholic teachings. He researches those teachings. He responds to those teachings when he thinks that their argumentation is faulty. This is what I would expect should happen with any Catholic or non-Catholic who has questions about Church teachings.

I (and others) disagree with him because we believe that NFP is not the same as contraception.

I (and others) also disagree with him because we believe that the true Church founded by Our Lord is the Catholic Church. All other churches separated from the Catholic Church (including the various Orthodox churches and the Charismatic Episcopal church) contain less than the fullness of truth.

My $0.02,

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), August 12, 2003.