Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. (2 Corinthians 11:14)

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 05, 2003

Answers

I'm not dissing Jesus, except that's more likely how Satan looks like.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 05, 2003.

I don't make any references to the image you've provided, but I will add this:

The angel of light is Lucifer. If Satan and Lucifer are the same fallen angel, then why would Satan mask himself as Lucifer? They are one and the same, yes?

Now, about the image above. It looks like you pull that from a Greek Orthodox website. Are you familiar with the different art periods and their unique styles and interpretations?

Are you familiar with the Templars?

rod..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 05, 2003.

I believe that "Satan", as used in that Scripture, inferred the world outside of God's grace. I don't think it was referring to Satan. So, the meaning of that particular Scripture deals with the world making itself to be superior to God's will.

I would have to spend some time researching this interpretation, as I am having difficulty refreshing my memory on this verse.

rod..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 05, 2003.

"The angel of light is Lucifer. If Satan and Lucifer are the same fallen angel, then why would Satan mask himself as Lucifer? They are one and the same, yes?"

rod, what are you talking about? Yes Lucifer is Satan. What I am saying is that Lucifer will appear as an angel of light to decieve you.

"Now, about the image above. It looks like you pull that from a Greek Orthodox website. Are you familiar with the different art periods and their unique styles and interpretations?"

I told you, that is probably how Satan looks like since Jesus did not have long hair, was not white skinned and probably did not have blue eyes. And since he was a carpenter was physically built and not that skinny wimp of an imposter people make him out to be.

"Are you familiar with the Templars?"

No, I don't know what that is.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@prodigy.net), August 07, 2003.

The picture above is from the Episcopalian Church.

"Satan" also referred to the world. When a church bretheren could not conform to the church, they would be cast out to "Satan", the world.

The Templars believed that Jesus was not the important figure; they regarded John the Baptist. They claimed that Mary Magdelene was the main Apostle. There is more, but people will think that I'm a Templar, which I am not, and begin to get all freaky and stuff.

There have been claims that Jesus being called a "carpenter" was a metaphor. In this case, "carpenter" was not about the actual career of building things from wood. It meant that Jesus, being God, was the "architect" of the world, the "creator", and the "designer" of the new way of life on earth. Once again, I am simply showing other interpretations, not my own.

If you read the about the Templars, you will begin to understand the world of art as it pertains to Leonardo Da Vinci (those religious paintings and such). It will open your eyes, as it did mine.

If you see a book,Jesus Last of The Pharaohs, do not read it unless you are strong in your faith and are ready to have everything you've ever learned about Jesus completely distorted. This book by Ralph Ellis tells what he believes to be the real story of Christ. It will shock you and make you re-think everything in the Bible. If you truly believe in Christ, this book will be a nice fiction book for late night entertainment, don't let your congregation know that you have this book.

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 07, 2003.

Notice that Jesus has long hair, but John the Baptist has short hair.

Visual by www.PDImages.com

rod..

..

.

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 27, 2003.

By today's fashion statments, John the Baptist would be considered to have had his hair long. Most people I meet have very short hair; I can see their shiny scalps.

Hey! Your picture of Jesus doesn't look like the same Jesus in my picture, David! What's going on here? I've searched the net and surprise! Jesus looks different in each picture! I smell a scam!

rod..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 27, 2003.

Have a look at the Shroud of Turin.
I'm not allowed to post the image, but after you have a look at that website try to answer my question:

Who is that image of?

1. Jesus.
2. Satan.
3. The World Famous John Doe.
4. Leonardo da Vinci, his hoax and magic photography.
5. I don't know, but he has long hair and that really bugs me!

rod..

..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 27, 2003.

The best question is; Who is that in the photograph?

I say "photograph" because it is alleged that it was indeed an actual photograph. It is also believed that da Vinci had discovered the science/art of photography. Some believe that the man in the picture is actually da Vinci. There is a hidden/subtle message alluding to John the Baptist in that Turin relic. The hint of decapitation in the hoax shroud refers to the allegiance to Baptist. Have a study of Leonardo's Last Supper painting (and others) and try to figure out those peculiar anomolies. Heresy, anybody?

rod..

.

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 27, 2003.

rod,

The Shroud of Turin is another FAKE pawned of on men by the Catholic Church to try to make the statement that they are the true church and NOTHING could be further from the truth. The image on this is NOT that of Jesus, but that of a man. Go back and re-read the accounts of Jesus death and how He was buried and you can PLAINLY see that this is NOT how Jesus was buried.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), September 27, 2003.

Except that the name Lucifer (which means "Bearer of Light) isn't in the original Bible - it entered Christian mythology when Jerome translated the Bible into Latin, and used the name of the then recently excommunicated and demonized Bishop Lucifer of Gagliari who was vociferously against the Arian Heresy, to the anger and chagrin of the Church Fathers in Milan who proceeded to pour aspersions on his head.

Until that time, Lucifer was a very popular Latin and Christian name.

http://www.bartleby.com/65/lu/LuciferC.html

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03139c.htm

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09410b.htm

http://79.1911encyclopedia.org/L/LU/LUCIFER_BISHOP_.htm

http://www.1upinfo.com/encyclopedia/L/LuciferC.html

http://80.1911encyclopedia.org/L/LU/LUCIFER_VENUS_.htm

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf203.v.iii.xcvii.html

http://www.witchvox.com/whs/kerr_mythmakers_2a.html

http://www.onelook.com/?w=lucifer+calaritanus

-- Vera Narishkin (Santhoshi@freesurf.ch), October 14, 2003.

True, Vera, Lucifer is not in the Bible.

Satan, as the evil one is not in the Old Testament. Satan (accuser, opponent) is used for the angel who accuses Job.

In the New Testament, Jesus uses Baalzebub for the evil one.

I give David Ortiz the benefit of freedom of Religion. Even though that person is not Jesus own portrait, the painting says Jesus Christ in Greek, at the top IC (Iesous) XC (Christos). The Orthodox will be deeply offended.

By the way, David. One of my brothers dreamed Satan as a beautiful angel. That was several yaers ago. It was the time he was into the occult.

-- Elpidio gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), October 28, 2003.

Hey, Rod, the man from the shroud looks like a Knight's Templar.

He looks Germanic to me. Long face. Jesus was more rounded probably. He was semitic. The man appears to be a Knight, not a carpenter. The hands look like his holding a sword.

-- Elpidio gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), October 28, 2003.

I take it David, that you are an Iconoclast, since you used a Holy Icon used for veneration and worship of Jesus Christ as an example of a picture of Satan.

-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), October 28, 2003.

That is why I asked David not to say anything in your other post containing the images of Christ. And, he wants James banned for Kevin's sake, but completely ignores his attacks on the images of Christ as they are forms of honor (I'll get butchered for that comment).

rod..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 28, 2003.

Thou shall not make any graven images...!

Yes I do think those pictures of the Roman Jesus are idols, and most likely pictures of Satan himself.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), October 28, 2003.

Rod,

Now I understand.

David,

May God shed his Light upon you.

Please do not commit any further sacrilege.

-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), October 28, 2003.

Other than the misinterpretations, what should I do with the "graven" images that are in my mind's eye? Should I lobotomize my brain or something? The images represent people's interpretations of Christ, not of satan. You, David, interpret them as satan. Graven images are not of false idols or gods; they are of Christ. Protestants had me in fear over my art forms that pertained to Christianity.

rod...

..<

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 28, 2003.

Hi Elpidio.

I read your "no thumbs" note. I didn't notice that about the Shroud. I'll have to re-examine the photos again.

I heard that the man in the Shroud was a church grounds keeper turned penitent. Something about being sacrificed. Stories are everywhere I suppose

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 30, 2003.

Hi, Rod.

Someone sent me an e-mail about the shroud. I think have it at my Yaho mail. I cannot access it from School.

-- Elpidio gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), October 30, 2003.

Yes, you sent me a copy. I read it, hence my reference to "no thumbs".

rod..

..

.

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 30, 2003.

I read something about Lucifer and Satan was the same icon of evil...this is wrong...Lucifer is Satan's right hand and leader of the fallen angels...Satan was a arch angel who tried to oppose God..this angels name was Iblis or Satanius..Lucifer was also an arch angel but was tempted by Satan to oppose God and not bow before the humans...he fell down to hell where he was meet by the Many headed Drake who is a avatar of Satan..

-- Martin S. (vampirelord_6@hotmail.com), December 02, 2003.

I think "avatar" is a reference to the incarnation of a Hindu deity (as Vishnu). We're talking "reincarnation" here, folks.

..........................................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), December 02, 2003.

Satan has one sole plot, to "steal kill and destroy" (John 10:10). He will do anything, even pose as Christ himself to decieve people (2 Corinthians 11:14).

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 09, 2003.

You guys got old Scratch all back to front.

He fell due to pride. Everything else is moot.

Lucifer doesn't give a shit about mankind. He's not trying to bring us down.

He and God both have better things to do than mess w/ us.

If God loves us, which I see no evidence of, the Lucifer doesn't hate us.

The opposite of love is not hate. Hate is still passion. The opposite of love, (and hate), is indifference.

Lucifer doesn't care about us at all.

-- Zero One (01@t256.com), February 19, 2004.

Hi, Zero.

Before you take-off and leave us without anymore discussion, let me ask you something:

How do you explain the evilness of men? How do you explain the suffering we must endure in our lives that are brought about by no direct actions of ourselves? Diseases and such.....??

And, most curiously, how do you explain your own apathy about such things as Good and Evil? You sound like an Agnostic, are you?

...............................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 19, 2004.

Hmmm... That is a very Central African (pagan) view, Zero One. The native religion in parts of central Africa states that the gods are too far from the Earth to really care what goes on here.

I am sorry that you see no love in the world. I cannot imagine seeing a sunrise, a flower bloom, or a baby's eyes and not feeling divine love. If you were to look more deeply at the world, you could find love in the blackest night, a dead flower, or a baby's shrill cries. My heart goes out to you.

-- J Biscuits (thefilthohgodthefilth@yahoo.com), February 19, 2004.

lovely post J Buscuits.

PS indifference is much much closer to hate than it is to love. maybe they are both opposites of love. the active concern for the fellow human. the appreciation of God.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), February 21, 2004.

Greetings,

This is an "early church" painting of Jesus Christ. Satan, who is Lucifer, won't carry a Bible, and as you can see, there are now perverted icons on the Bible in the picture, which is a clear sign that this Jesus with the Bible.

-- Christiaan Barnard (for_christ@crazyweb.co.za), July 16, 2004.

"Satan, who is Lucifer, won't carry a Bible"

Yet, he quoted it when tempting Jesus... strange indeed.. I know this is an "early church" painting, but I really do not believe that is how Christ look like.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 16, 2004.

###Yes satan Himself can change or can copy different faces of man but still there is a different, like a person who acts to be someone else."You should break the mirror of foolness in order for you to see whom you are looking to.

-- Jhay Ramirez (lasherrhys07@yahoo.com), August 30, 2004.

###Everyday satan fooled his heart as he plays a part in our lives......and remember who ever question the existence of god is a fool like satan.......

-- Jhay Ramirez (lasherrhys07@yahoo.com), August 30, 2004.

Satan is a great pretender.... a great fooler... who can sell his on mother.....

-- Jhay Ramirez (lasherrhys07@yahoo.com), August 30, 2004.

That, notice the inscriptions above the picture. (The Ic and Ac Imparticularly). Now notice the fingular formation on the right hand of the man in question. They point tword the Ac. This indicates Ac before Ic which concludes in AcIc. Coincidentaly, OR MAYBE NOT,AcIc trasnslates to the spawn of Lucifer. The man above is obviously a false devil portrait that represents the drawn image of an early 13th century Boroque Thesalonian who in turn represents A christian figure, thus signifying that we may conlude our conclusion. That I am a devil. Therefore we may hope and keep the success alive.

-- Pope Cory de Mudd (gabldeegook16467@aol.com), October 22, 2004.

Where do you see "Ac"?? The inscriptions are "IC" and "XC", Greek abbreviations for "Jesus Christ".

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 22, 2004.

I can only imagine what you all would be saying about me if I had posted this image...

...notice rod didn't accuse David of being an anti-Catholic??

Thou shall not make any graven images...! Yes I do think those pictures of the Roman Jesus are idols, and most likely pictures of Satan himself.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 23, 2004.

Hi reveal.

Generally, posters rarely get banned here. I, at least, am hopeful that people will have respect for each other by not posting hurtful false information about their faith systems. David and I have gone round and round about his anti-Catholic posts. We eventually reached a compromise. I don't criticize him in public; he doesn't post hateful posts about the Catholic Church. This thread isn't about the Catholic Church. It is about David's facination with Satan.

I would suggest that you do some more reading of this forum's threads, if you haven't already, whoever you are.

..................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 23, 2004.

The only thing that can make anything an "idol" is worshipping it. That is the definition of an idol. I have never known anyone who worshipped pictures. Or statues. Or any inanimate objects.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 23, 2004.

Why woudl I bow at rods Feet? And faith, again, I don care, as a Moderator, if yo ppst Anti-Cahtolic stuff... I only cae about the board rules and inegreity. if you begin a fight that is breakign dowen the baord, then i intervene, but until then, feel free to post Dave Hunt, Alexander Hislop, and even Jasck Chick all you want... I don care form a moderator perspective since the baord rules permit this. They merley dot permit fighting that causes board problems...

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), October 23, 2004.

For the record, I am obedient to the moderators of this forum. If and when I feel that the moderators are unfair or in error in their duties I will bring my concerns to their attention. I will do what I feel must be done in order to keep this forum righteous, even at the risk of my banning. Logically, why would I wish to participate in a forum that is unfair to its posters?

Zarove is the moderator, so I must submit to his authority in this forum. As far as kneeling or bowing, we who are faithful do so only to God through Jesus Christ our Saviour.

......................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 23, 2004.

Zarove..,

Again.,

Please cite one post where I begin a fight or cause the board to break down...

You can't. It always happens because of my posts that rod declares are anti-Catholic

You say this:

feel free to post Dave Hunt, Alexander Hislop, and even Jasck Chick all you want...

But Zarove--this is what causes the emotional over-reaction.

Then you said this:

I don care form a moderator perspective since the baord rules permit this. They merley dot permit fighting that causes board problems...

So then--prove that I fight and cause board problems...

All I do--is what you say is permitted--which is to post things that are perceived as being from Dave Hunt or Hislop or whatever.

There are no posts from me that involve fighting or attacking anyone. I have challenged you to produce even one--and you have not.

And why are you bringing this up here in this thread now?

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 23, 2004.

i think that this just something to go agianst christianity or in other words just something to diss God because their is nothing fulfilling in your life so you feel that you have to spend all of your time doing retarded things like this where alot of people will get offended!

-- jane johnson (ShelbyCreed4@hotmail.com), October 26, 2004.

i found one faith and zarove, and it only took me a matter of scrolling up...

...notice rod didn't accuse David of being an anti-Catholic??

NOTHING was said in regards to you and your conflict with rod. And yet you come and you drag the mud to deliberately spread your fight into this thread as well. theres a word for this type of behavior, faith, its called FLAMEBAITING. you are intentionally trying to drag rod into a fight and cause an issue in this thread as well. what zarove seems to be getting at, which you seem to be unable to realize in yourself, is that a solution needs to be found to stop these behaviors by people on both sides of the issue.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), October 28, 2004.

Hi paul h,

Good to see you.

Faith left this forum and doesn't post here anymore.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), October 28, 2004.

Hi paul h, good to see you.

For the record:

David and I have had our boxing matches and we've traded titles. We reached a compromise--truce.

I would love to reach some kind of mutual condition with Faith.

.....................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 28, 2004.

yeah right

-- world (not@of.this), October 28, 2004.

Come on, world. You don't think Faith would reach some kind of mutual condition? Have some confidence.

...............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 28, 2004.

Lucifer is in charge of hell and all that is dead, satan was his body guard for want of better words and has anyone ever thought that jesues is lucifer in his night time roll? wot with doppleganners and all that other stuff it is possible that "god" gave jc the name lucifer as to install fear into everyone since they slaughtered jc on the cross, would it not be far for jc to give his dad a break and look after the earth for a while and with everyone thinkking jc is a soft touch,

-- anon (abc@123.com), October 29, 2004.

Aren't Lucifer and satan the same for Christians, Anon?

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), October 30, 2004.

Rod says "have some confidence" ROFL....now I 'get it' you DO have a sense of humor..seriously.

-- world (not@of.this), October 30, 2004.

Elp, lucifer, satan, devil, great deceiver, etc...all the same where I worship.

-- world (not@of.this), October 30, 2004.

Hmmm......here is something a little funnier--seriously--Satan is known as the one with millions of names. I guess that if he were to post in this forum, he would probably use many different usernames. Uh, suddenly the humor slips away into a sickening pang of uneasiness.

....just a reality check. I'm confident.

.................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 31, 2004.

again, ROFL. I dont really know that satan would use fake emails either, but I dont think he really cares much of what goes is typed in lusenet either. IMHO.

-- world (not@of.this), October 31, 2004.

World--

I was talking about your numerous usernames in this forum.

..............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 31, 2004.

still rofl. Your warming up to me arent you? See, I told you I was easy to get along with. ;> btw, now that the I am faith theory was disproven, when do you plan on asking the moderator to delete it? You promised.....forgive me if you still arent done with your poll yet. I have no problem keeping my word on which name I will keep on posting with. That was settled between me and the moderator. BTW, we must be careful, we do not wish to flame bait.

-- world (not@of.this), November 01, 2004.

The thread is complete, but time will delete it. When would you like it deleted, world? Tell me.

"Flame bait"? Nope, sorry. You don't have to respond to my posts. But, you are free to do so. Yes, I would like to "warm up" to any poster here. I would prefer not to "boil", though. Which do you prefer, world?

..................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 01, 2004.

The thread is complete, but time will delete it. When would you like it deleted, world? Tell me. "Flame bait"? Nope, sorry. You don't have to respond to my posts. But, you are free to do so. Yes, I would like to "warm up" to any poster here. I would prefer not to "boil", though. Which do you prefer, world?

..................

I am not the moderator here, so whenever it goes it goes. I will respond to your posts when we are cordial. As for my preference, I can run hot/cold, or slow simmer. But is is always best to keep emotionalism in check. Bottom line, I like you Rod. I do believe you have a sense of humor and if we ever met IRL, I could have you laughing in a heart beat, your humor is great, a little dry and I like that. Serious.

-- world (not@of.this), November 01, 2004.

Ah! thanks, World. We can now fully agree on something--I like me, too. (How's that for humor?)

I love emotionalism; that's how people show their love. Love is not logical. It makes us do things a rational man would laugh at or scratch his head at. Shoot! some people even get married. Why?

..........................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 01, 2004.

Some people even get married, why?

hmmm wonder that meself sometimes. Perhaps from a christian perspective it is because God prefers it that way. I tell my grown children "All you want to do is play house, nobody wants to finish the game". So true in our society, is it not? When you have a child out of marriage, a mistake, but it appears that now "the norm" is have alot of children, without marriage.

It breaks my heart personally. How to effectively grandparent in todays society also a heartbreaker. What to do when the baby's momma and 'dad' break up and then enter another man, no marriage, onto to the next. Then when this occurs, most likely you shall not be allowed to see the babies again.

I shall hop off my soap box now.

The voice of experience.

-- world (not@of.this), November 01, 2004.

Picture of Satan a bit confusing as is most of what is in Bible that has been passsed along to us for many generations. Catholicism is an example of commit a sin and your gone. Imagine my confessing, masturbating to a Priest as a teenager, its no wonder that one converts to another religion and some of my friends are converting to satanism where one lives with a free spirit.

-- Lisa Turnwell (ju21ne@aol.com), November 15, 2004.

Hi Lisa.

Catholicism is an example of commit a sin and your gone. - Lisa

Catholicism teaches forgiveness and reconciliation. Would you elaborate a bit on what you mean?

...some of my friends are converting to satanism where one lives with a free spirit. - Lisa

I question whether they are living with a real free spirit. It may be that their spirit is a slave to their passions and the Devil. They may just "think" that they are free.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), November 15, 2004.

Hi Andy.

I can only speak for myself and find it most compelling at this time that my feelings are for a change in religion and leaning towards satanism. A more liberal religion is what I desire presently and after much thought selected satanism as my new religion. I fully understand that this is a radical change and aware of all the implications that are involved. After much thought, I feel that this was the proper decision and already made the necessary contact to establish myself as a follower of the Cos.

-- Lisa Turnwell (ju21ne@aol.com), November 16, 2004.

Arsenic is much quicker and accomplishes the same thing.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 16, 2004.

Lisa

Is it love that you seek? Is genuine love missing from your life?

Does Satanism offer you a sense of hope, love, forgiveness, and eternal life?

Why did Satan deny God?

If Hell exists, surely there is also Heaven. Do you not know that a place awaits you in Heaven? Does Satan wish for you a place in Heaven, a place of eternal peace, a place of eternal bliss, a place with God?

Does God deceive His children?

...........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 16, 2004.

Dear Lisa,

Please consider Rod's questions.

I beg you to reconsider. This is very serious business. Satan will devour you. Even if you're only following satanism as a philosophy and don't believe he exists.

Only God can give you what you need.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), November 16, 2004.

I appreciate some of the wonderful comments made on my behalf and having second thoughts in reference to religion conversion. It's nice to know that there are caring people that are really concerned about me but, I still feel the need for change and I thank you for being so nice and not offensive.

-- Lisa (ju21ne@aol.com), November 16, 2004.

Lisa,

We really do care.

I fear for you and what could happen that will have consequences for your eternity.

Why do you feel the need for change? What are you looking for? Have you considered Rod's questions?

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), November 16, 2004.

Dear Lisa,

I was raised Protestant and I am now joining the Catholic Church. What I have found is that Catholicism is so refreshing -- I can know what God wants of me and how to live in a way that is pleasing to Him. Why does it please God when people follow morality? Well, God knows us humans better than we know ourselves. He knows what is best for us and how we should live so that our lives will be most fulfilling. God is love and true love (charity) abounds when people follow God's standards.

From my own experience I know that sin is bondage, and it enslaves people. I have been caught in that trap and it is dark and lonely. This only leads to destruction, both of body and spirit. God wants us to live happy and fulfilling lives by His standards, which lead to order in society and love for others. It is out of love that God shows us the way to live.

I noticed that you spoke of confession. I understand how you feel in the sense that it can be embarrassing and difficult to confess one's sins to another person. However, it is also very liberating. When confessing sincerely, one can feel a sense of liberation and rebirth. We get a new start, a clean slate, from God's cleansing us of our sins. This is true liberation, freedom from worry about the consequences of sin, and peace of mind.

The devil wishes to deceive you by saying that rebelling against morality is liberating. Look around you and observe those who are living this supposedly "liberating" lifestyle. They may say that it's fun, but deep down they are often hurting. Compare the short term apparent "pleasure" with the long term consequences to their bodies and spirits.

I agree with Andy, and I also ask that you reconsider your decision.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), November 16, 2004.

Dear Emily. With all due respect, I am quite familiar with Catholicism and perhaps not being aided by the almighty when needed at the age of fifteen due to family abuse is primarily why I have converted. This abuse has continued for many years and how can one judge me unless subjected to a similar circumstance. I feel that converting was warranted and need not vindicate reproach to Satanism as my new way of life and prepared to suffer the consequences. Only time will tell if my choice for converting had been correct.

-- Lisa (ju21ne@aol.com), November 16, 2004.

If you are still suffering with the abuse, it could be leading you into a path of further abuse. Abuse does continue to play tricks in the mind. It makes us paranoid and distrustful of others. It puts us in a position of fear and doubt. It makes us less receptive to happiness and unable to cope in a positive way with life. That's what abuse brings to our lives. So, come to terms with what that abuse has done and learn to fight its continual hold. I think I understand what you have gone through. You do have a chance to re-examine your choices. There is always time to move slowly in either direction.

............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 16, 2004.

Lisa

You deserve to be happy, to be loved, and to be cared for. Those are all human needs that each of us deserve. There is no reason for you to remain prisoner of an abusive environment or memory. You can break free from such a hold. If in your convictions to Satanism you find yourself once again in an abusive situation, you must distance yourself from it. Do not gravitate to such an environment of abusiveness. It may seem familiar to submit to abuse, but you do not deserve such treatment. You must remove yourself from that treatment. Please do not allow yourself to be lured by Satanism. The beauty of Satanism is only an illusion. When you demand to live in happiness, it can be found because you no longer will accept anything less.

.........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 16, 2004.

Dear Emily. With all due respect, I am quite familiar with Catholicism and perhaps not being aided by the almighty when needed at the age of fifteen due to family abuse is primarily why I have converted. This abuse has continued for many years and how can one judge me unless subjected to a similar circumstance.

{I , too, grew uo abused. I know the feelign of beign denegrated for just beign oensself, for always beign queatsioend, for never beign alloeed freedom... however, these pains are not suffucuent for me to cast aside reason, nd go way form what my mother beleived ebcayse she beleived it and caused me pain.

I know it is hard, but life does not work well with reactive elements cloudign our judgement. trust me.}-Zarove

I feel that converting was warranted and need not vindicate reproach to Satanism as my new way of life and prepared to suffer the consequences.

{You are so use to sufferage, but int he end, sufferage is all you will meet. Not for satanism, but for s more fundamental reason, ythzt you subconciously look for and expose yourself to sufferage. Satanism is just one more step in a voluntary self dsturction you go to for those feeligns you house deep inside.

emily wasnt beign judgedmental, she was trying to help. she may come off as storng, btu shes zelous in her faith, and was isncere in her words. But you cant see this, or even the words of others, withot dohbt and queatsion. even my worlds, offered here in love, may seem harsh.

I know, I was there.

However, what your doing is flase projection. Those who abused you identified themselves as Christain, so to break form them, and hurt them,and to differentiate, you become a satanist.

The torjble is tat you arne tloomign for what is true and what is right, you seek only to reacttot he pain you fel inside, and THIS I know form expwrnrce leads only to further ruin.}-Zarove

Only time will tell if my choice for converting had been correct.

{Time nothing, come let us reason, and show with out minds that which is good. wisdom Shpoidl determine the acitosn before we take htem, so no consequence is met that is unfortunate. Rather than make a rash determination base do emotion and let the consequences coem what may, why not see the end reuslt now, work through your issue,s and seek a beter lif and tha which is true?

Any here are willign to help you, and, dear Lisa, whose name means light, I ask you why you want ot walk in the darkness of your former abuse, when yuo can step into the ligh of healing?}-Zarove

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), November 16, 2004.

Lisa,

I'm sorry for whatever abuse you suffered at the hands of those who said they were Catholic. They will have to answer to God for their sins. I hope you can one day understand that their abuse has nothing to do with the teachings of the Catholic Church. Abuse goes against everything the Church teaches.

Whatever suffering you endured, know that Jesus suffered along with you. If anyone understands suffering at the hands of the one you love, it is Jesus. If anyone understands what Jesus went through in his Passion, it sounds like you would.

We obviously think you're making a huge mistake by giving yourself to Satanism. But always remember that whatever you decide to do, whatever happens, that you have a group of friends here praying and sacrificing for you. Please don't lose hope.

May God bless you Lisa. I pray He manifests Himself in your life.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), November 17, 2004.

Dear Andy. I have read your comments over and over and they have really touched my heart and made a profound difference in my way of thinking. I begun to regain my respect for Catholicism because of the sincerity that you have conveyed to me as a true and loyal friend that really cared. Finding this forum and you I am sure was not by accident and I am truly grateful that I had been directed by the Lord in that direction. Lisa

-- Lisa (ju21ne@aol.com), November 19, 2004.

Dearest Lisa,

I am so happy that the Lord has touched you. I know things cannot be easy for you, but trust in Him. I cannot even imagine what you have experienced or are going through. I meant what I said. I am praying and sacrificing for you. I really hope you can find healing. I don't pretend that the road before you isn't hard. But Jesus will be there to help you carry your cross, if you just ask Him to.

I also hope you stick around. I think you'll find that everyone here genuinely cares about each other even though we may bicker and have different points of view. Kind of like family during the holidays.

We have a lot of open dicussions. If you're interested in learning more about Catholic teaching, I recommend the Catholic board. At this board we touch on all kinds of things and many times defend our faith as well as learn about others.

There are folks at the Catholic board as well as here who may have been through what you're experiencing and they may be able to offer some good advice. Depends on how much you want to share in a public forum, but you are welcome to post anonymously too. You can also ask for everyone to pray for you thoughout your journey and trials. I know that everyone at both forums would be more than happy to do this.

Remember that Christ is with you every step of the way.

Might I ask a favor? If you feel moved to, would you pray for me? I have some family issues I need the Lord's help with.

Blessings to you Lisa.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), November 19, 2004.

Dear Lisa, I am glad to hear that you were encouraged by Andy's words. I am sorry that I came across as judging because this is not what I intended at all. I will pray for you, and Andy I will pray for your family situation also.

God bless,

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com"), November 19, 2004.

Thank you for the prayers Emily.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), November 19, 2004.

Dear Emily, Friends are angels who lift us to our feet whenever our wings have trouble remembering how to fly. I appeciate your praying for my plight and salvation at a time when I was in great need for help. You did not judge me but, indicated in your comment on ways of helping me with my problems ,with what could possibly happen to me by way of comparisons. Sometimes, the truth can hurt deeply and ones reaction becomes defensive. You are a true friend and perhaps you to were called upon by the Lord to assist me at a most crucial time in my life.

-- Lisa (ju21ne@aol.com), November 20, 2004.

Dear Andy, Your comments have been the primary reasons that I am now able to continue with life on a different level. You have been most prolific with restoring me to a better way of life through undestanding and pray. Of course, I would be most happy to pray for any of your family issues and perhaps the Lord inturn will answer them as he had answered your prayers on my behalf. Know that you have made an impact on my life and enjoy the satisfaction of having me return to the Lord through your prayers. What a blessing for me to have found someone that could turn my life around and for the best. I fevently hope that you to will peace in your heart as I now feel in mine. Bless you, Lisa

-- Lisa (ju21ne@aol.com), November 20, 2004.

Hi Lisa,

The Catholic Church is made up of saints and sinners -- although, more sinners than saints. Every catholic is in a different part of his/her journey towards holiness. I'm sorry to hear about how some catholics have mistreated you. Why they sinned against you, we'll find out when we get to Heaven. I hope that you will be able to forgive them completely. May you begin again to partake of the Catholic Church's Holy Sacraments. Mother Church will guide you into greater Peace. Persevere and abide by her eternal Truths.

-- Joseph (jtg878@hotmail.com), November 20, 2004.

Dear Lisa, to hear that you now feel peace and have turned to the Lord again is wonderful news. I am in tears of joy. If you wish to talk with other Catholics, there are many at the Catholic forum here, and I am sure if you want to ask a question or simply ask them to pray for you, that many there would be glad to help.

Catholic forum

New Answers on Catholic forum

God bless,

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com"), November 20, 2004.

Dearest Lisa,

I am truly grateful to God for touching you through my meager words. Words can't describe how grateful I am. What I wrote was written from my heart, the rest was God's doing. I have offered prayers of thanksgiving, and I will do so especially today at Mass.

You have been a source of blessings for me too. Your replies really touched me. I can only praise Jesus for His love for us all. Thank you for praying for me. I know that God hears you. It is great to have friends like you Lisa.

Your brother in Christ,

Andy

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), November 21, 2004.

Lisa, if you are still around reading this please send me an email. I tried emailing you but it returned undeliverable. I'm still praying for you. God bless,

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com"), December 15, 2004.

Lisa,

You're still in my prayers too. I haven't forgotten, even though I haven't posted in this particular thread in about a month.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), December 15, 2004.