No, when people die (if unsaved) they go to a place called Hades. Hades is a compartment of Hell, which no one can get out of. On Judgement Day (There are 2 judgments, one for the wicked an one for the saints) Then will they be thrown into hell.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 30, 2003

Answers

No you are wrong, since nowadays 99 % of the world population goes to hell lucifer, or whatever you call him, had to open the gates of hell because he was fed up with having soooo many illegal immigrant

-- godwarrior (fuma1@hotmail.com), July 31, 2003.

No one is in hell right now. They are in Hades waiting for judgement Day.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 07, 2003.

"...fed up with having soooo many illegal immigrant "

What do the pilgrims have to do with this topic??

Just kidding.

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 30, 2003.

David O, GHod judge us as soon as we die, my friend.

Why? Remember when Jesus said , quoting from Exodus, That God (El) says I am the God of Abraham, the God Of Isaac, The God of Jacob... Because to God, Abraham, Jacob and Isaac were already with him.

Let's clarify this : What is Hell? 1)The erroneous misunderstanding is that Hell is a place of fire. It isn't. Jesus parable about the man thrown out of the wedding feast suggests Hell is a place of darkness. People gnash their teeth when they are cold. 2) Jesus used the word Gehenna (Hebrew Ge Hinnom, Valley of Hinnom, a place of human sacrife, later profaned by Josiah around 620 BC by burning bones. It was still the city dump in Jesus days, always burning). For Jesus it was better to suffer now (that is be thrown in Gehenna) than to suffer in Hell (The dark place). Unfortunately many Bibles translate Gehenna as Hell. 3) Hades is the tomb (in Hebrew). It translates sheol. That is the meaning in Acts when Peter discusses David the King. 4)For Greeks, Hades was the place of torment. There was alake of fire, beasts eating people,....This is the meaning people now associate with Hell. Yet, this meaning is from Greek Mythology.

People who were righteous, David O, go to Paradise (Heaven). People who were totally unrighteous, to the darkness of Hell, since God is light. People who were so so....Purgatory.

The Catholic Church puts infants in Limbo, I don't. They either get a second chance to go back to Earth, or go to Heaven.

I know someone who has been at those three places, by the way.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), October 30, 2003.

Elpidio- They either get a second chance to go back to Earth, or go to Heaven.

rod- That is amazing to hear. My father was born Catholic and attended parochial school. He served during the latin mass and was always connected to the Church. In my discussions about theology and Catholicism, my father made a very fine point to me, which threw me into amazement. He told me; "They either get a second chance to go back to Earth, or go to Heaven. " I was also shocked because that isn't in the catechism, is it?

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 30, 2003.

Elpidio. I believe I know who that soul is who has been at all three places. I'm sure that he is still in your prayers, as now in mine.

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 30, 2003.

Hi, Rod.

No, the Church doesn't say it. Protestants don't believe it either.

I do believe Children get a second chance. Why? I believe God wants us to experience real life for us to really get to know him and love him by loving others. That is why he gave us free choice.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), October 30, 2003.

Elpidio,

You wrote,"The erroneous misunderstanding is that Hell is a place of fire"

"And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." Mark 9:47-48 / KJV

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), October 30, 2003.

See the Blue Bible for Mark 9:47. Geennan . That's how it appears in Mark : Gehenna , in Greek Koiné. 2Ki 23:10 And he defiled Topheth, which [is] in the valley of the children of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter to pass through the fire to Molech .

So you see, David, it doesn't say Hell, my friend.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), October 30, 2003.

I tell you; David and Kevin know their Bibles!

David have you ever considered reading The Jerusalem Bible? No, I'm not making a Catholic suggestion. It is just that this particular Bible takes out some of the so-called "dogma", yet maintains a very clear verse. The Jerusalem Bible is one of my favorite.

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 30, 2003.

I sat once with the idea of studying Hebrew and Greek. I wanted to get to the nitty-gritty of Bible Scriptures. My life span and schedules would prove to be limitations to such study. How do you do it, Elpidio? You must have started much earlier--9 yrs. old?

I can pretty much find my way around the latin vulgate, but everything else is pretty much "greek" to me. (brief chuckle followed by a shallow sigh.)

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 30, 2003.

Link by Elpidio.

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 30, 2003.

Rod, I started at 19 reading Koine Greek. It is strange, for example that words we now read in the past tense in English and Spanish, are actually in the present in Koine. What's amazing, is that words in Attic Greek, at least 400 years before Koine tend to have a different meaning as they are translated in scripture. One common word is grace. it's meaning 400 years earlier in Atticc Greek is totally different.

The septuagint, the translation of the Old Testament into Greek uses Attic Greek. The New testament, Koine Greek. The words may look the same, the meaning is different. Then there is Homeric Greek, 900 years before Christ. Totally different.

Hebrew and Aramaic are more complicated for me. They have 3 tenses but many forms.

That is why many people still translate YAHWEH as I AM, and thus, confuse him with Jesus. Yahweh more likely means the one that is, he who causes to be,or he will be.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), October 30, 2003.

So, where do we get the idea of 'Yashua' and 'Elohim' being combined to form Yahweh?

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 30, 2003.

What levels of hell are there and what sins do humans commit to get them there?

I've only heard of Limbo and Hell and I can't make much distinction between the two.

-- Jon (atomicmidget45@hotmail.com), October 30, 2003.

There is no such thing as Limbo. That is a Roman invention.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), October 30, 2003.

Jon, there is the darkness of Hell, where people are away from the light of God as punishment for their evil deeds (my belief). Catholics, Orthodox and Protestants think is fire. (That I know from a Revelation for my brother in 1994).

There is a Purgatory. There people pay for minor infractions. Ther is no torture, but voluntary work assigned by God. (That also I know from my brother-same dream, 1994). Protestants don't beieve in it.

There is also limbo where babies are in case you are a catholic. I don't believe so.

Tjhere paradise or Heaven where people enter the immensity of Heaven. (Again from my brother's dream. He wasn't allowed in. He could see but not get in).

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), November 05, 2003.

David O, did youn see there is no Hell in the Bible of fire? Did you check to see that Gehenna is not the same as Hell?

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), November 05, 2003.

Jehovah-God says,

"And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." Revelation 14:9-11 / KJV

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Revelation 21:8 / KJV

It is very interesting that God also said "Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away," (Luke 21:33 / KJV) and yet people still make arguments on words (e.g. AND, IN, FOR) and go back to Greek or Hebrew to twist God's word and make it fit to their false doctrines.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 05, 2003.

Anyone who starts blabbing off about Greek words is calling God a liar and should have faith that there is a English bible where God preserved His Word in.

God said he will preserve His Word,

"The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." Psalm 12:6-7 / KJV

He did not say His Word would only be kept in the originals and everybody learn Greek so you can sound smarter in your debates!!

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 05, 2003.

Hi David.

Do you actually know who, what, why, and when John of Patmos was writing about?

Also, I wonder if the Greek people ever wonder about the English translations.

You're kidding about "sounding smarter", yes? The trouble with the different English translations is that they are different. So, which one is more correct? Yes, you'll say the KJV. Do you know all about the KJV and the circumstances leading to his version? You know; it was a Catholic Bible, but it has been changed. Have you compared the English Standard Version with any other Bible version? You will find different word usages, which change the meaning if even slightly to majorly. Have you read the English version of the Jehovah Witness' Bible? Have a look at John 1 and try to tell me that in the beginning "the Word was god", better yet, explain to the Jehovah Witness that "the Word was God". Oh, btw, their Bible uses the Greek texts as their source, but included their personal interpretations without regard to the "real" Word. And, I suppose that God's Word is safe in many of these "paraphrased" versions, or "amplified" versions. If you read and compare, you will not conclude with identical meanings, unless you first study from realiable texts. So, where are these realiable texts? In your Bible, my Bible(s), or Elpidio's, Kevin's? It would make sense to go to the original texts that have survived time and cultures. Men have their doctrines to maintain; they are gonna do it anyway they can. So, what if a few words are changed here or there? Uh....I care.

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 06, 2003.

Hi Rod and david,

Rod thanks for clarifying some points with David before I started.

Hi, David,

What you said is correct to a certain degree as long as you know what the meaning of the passage is: You said"Jehovah-God says,

"And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." Revelation 14:9-11 / KJV

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Revelation 21:8 / KJV

It is very interesting that God also said "Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away," (Luke 21:33 / KJV) and yet people still make arguments on words (e.g. AND, IN, FOR) and go back to Greek or Hebrew to twist God's word and make it fit to their false doctrines.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 05, 2003. Anyone who starts blabbing off about Greek words is calling God a liar and should have faith that there is a English bible where God preserved His Word in.

God said he will preserve His Word,

The bolding is mine.

The Beast is the 8th ruler of the Roman Empire. His name was Domitian.H He forced people to worship him as God. He was killed in AD 96. His brother Titus was 7th. His father Vespasian was 6th. Nero was 5th.Augustus was 1st. I will show you in a thread later their identities.

Now the second death is something you found and I have not even told Rod about it. It goes like this: we get a chance for redemption after we die from God, if we refuse even there, we burn, but not eternally, but to nothingness. We don't exist anymore anywhere in the universe.

You see David, those people who made the KJB used the Textus Receptus, a collection of Greek Manuscripts common in the Greek world of the 16th century. The idea was that the Vugate, the Latin translation from Jerome from then 4th century was corrupt. Like Rod said, they had to go back to the originals.

Also, as Rod is pointing, they had to make sure the originals were not as corrupt. Unfortunately, for these translators, we have been able to find a lot od documents, older than the Textus Receptus which shed light on the truth.

Also, the dead sea documents and the Nag Hammadi documents found in the 1940s shed light on ancient practices and beliefs from Jesus days. In addition, gospels that were mentioned by the earlier writers of the first 3 centuries were found.

Examples: the Gospel of Thomas. Just like the movie Stigmata, if you haven't seen it, watch it, shows an earlier wording of Jesus speeches.

The Gospels you have today, David, are revisions and compilations of earlier works.

That is why I don't get on you hard because you are learning. It takes time, David. Not even I, who talked to God, Yahweh(Yavé) and Jesus has all the answers. God wants to find some of them on my own time. He only revealed to me some basic stuff.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), November 06, 2003.

If we sound "smarter" in our debates, then that is merely a person's perception of what we are trying to accomplish. I (and many of us) am here for answers. I do believe that I have provided a thread-- "What's it like to be smart?"--in this forum. It was intended for a chance for humor and major off-topic discussions. When one man thinks he is something, he is nothing. I found this to be true on many occasions.

But, "gee", thanks for the compliments, David. I do too think that Elpidio is a smart one. BTW, David are you familiar with what Elpidio does for a living? I bet you can "figure" it out.

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 06, 2003.

Elpidio- "...we get a chance for redemption after we die from God, if we refuse even there, we burn, but not eternally, but to nothingness. We don't exist anymore anywhere in the universe."

rod- I tend to believe the same thing, but I'm not aware of the non-existence part. I believe that our souls are eternal and never expire. Our soul may have eternal life or eternal damnation.

How do you arrive at the possibility of non-existence? Are you referring to the idea of the soul being reincarnated for a "second chance"?

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 06, 2003.

The "second chance" idea has crossed my thinking at various times. It is not a Catholic doctrine (as we discussed earlier).

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 06, 2003.

There is NO such thing as Purgatory or Limbo, NOR is there a second chance after one has passed away.

These are inventions of men!!!

Go back and re-read the story of the rich man in Luke 16:19-31.

"Behold, now is the accepted time ; behold, now is the day of salvation." (2 Corinthians 6:2).

If there is "another day of salvation" then one ought to be able to PROVE this from the Word of God!!!

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 06, 2003.

Rod, this is a revelation from God. It is also in the Bible but not straightforward. Examples: Exd 3:6 Moreover he said, I [am] the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

For Yahweh to be the God of Abraham and company they had to be saved and in his presence, that is , already judged by him. This means, also, that we are judged as soon as we die, the way catholics believe, not the way Protestants believe. At least in the case of these 3 men, they had enough time to repent. All died peaceful deaths.Deu 34:3 And the south, and the plain of the valley of Jericho, the city of palm trees, unto Zoar. Deu 34:4 And the LORD said unto him, This [is] the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, saying, I will give it unto thy seed: I have caused thee to see [it] with thine eyes, but thou shalt not go over thither. Deu 34:5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.

Rod, you can see Moses sinned against God, so he wasn't allowed to enter Cannan. Yet, Rod, God calls him my servant after he is dead. That is, God had forgiven Moses his sin. So Moses had been judged already. Jos 1:2 Moses my servant is dead; now therefore arise, go over this Jordan, thou, and all this people, unto the land which I do give to them, [even] to the children of Israel.

Then there is the strange case of King Saul who feels abandoned by God. He looks for a diviner. The diviner contacts the Spirit of the dead prophet Samuel. How can this be?

1Sa 28:14 And he said unto her, What form [is] he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he [is] covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it [was] Samuel, and he stooped with [his] face to the ground, and bowed himself. 1Sa 28:15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do. 1Sa 28:16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?

It is curious that Samuel knew what would happen to Saul, even though he was dead. This means Samuel had been judged by God. He was already with God. God told him what to tell Saul. (I know this passage is a killer for Kevin and David, Rod, their eyes won't be able to see it...)

Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Notice how Jesse, the father of David, is held in high esteem by the prophet Isaiah. Now, the root of Jesse is Jesus himself. Jesus is his descendant. This tells you God had already saved Jesse, Jesus ancestor.

Notice what the prophet says about Jesus, that by his sacrifice, even more people will be saved.

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

So you see, God wants people to be saved, Ro, Kevin, and David. He doesn't want people to be lost. That is why he sent Jesus. The moment you understand that Kevin, you will be 99.99% closer to the Kingdom of God.

When God, Yahwh and Jesus appeared to me on July 23, 2000, they wanted me to preach to Protestants and Catholics. God showed me Protestants have the Bible, but they don't see him there. Jesus showed me Catholics have the prayers and the traditions, but they don't folow him.

(Rod, you know as a Catholic that our people tend to pray to Mary and the saints, not Jesus. Protestants pray to Jesus, but not to God. What about that!!)

Here the prophet Zechariah speaks well of David. This means David was saved already. Zec 13:1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness

God judged Jesus after he died: Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

The word used here for Hell in Greek is Hades(the tomb= sheol in Hebrew). David was not in Hell, David, he was in Purgatory. David had not yet ascended the Heavens. God had already judged David to be righteous. Righteous doesn't mean good , David O. It means, David did things that were Good before God. Yet David committed many sins deserving death.

This is what Jesus had to say about purgatory: Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. (The word here for Hell is Gehenna, the trash dump). Mat 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; Mat 5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. Mat 5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. Mat 5:26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

So we have to pay in the after life what we didn't pay on Earth, David O and Kevin.

There are many people who die in sins...yet, most of their life they were righteous before God...

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), November 06, 2003.

I believe Rod, that not everyone gets a chance to come back to Earth and reincarnate:

Case in point:

Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Mat 17:4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

Elijah and Moses appeared with Jesus. These means they had been already been saved. Yet, God did not allow them to come back to Earth as mortals, only as messengers.

I believe mostly children and people with debilitating disabilities get a chance to come back. A blind person, a deaf person, a down syndrome person,....they never experienced life to its fullest.

The judgment is mostly on us, Rod. We suffer, but we are not totaly disabled. We don't have a good excuse.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), November 06, 2003.

That is very thought provoking: purgatory, tabernacle, reincarnation.

I had never considered the settling out of court to mean "purgatory". It does seem to fit quite well. Also, "tabernacle" is used in place of "tent". I hadn't considered that angle either--reincarnation.

It seems to be a cultural practice to put so much emphasis on the Virgin Mary, or so it seems. The Catholic mass puts much emphasis on God. But, Jesus Christ is the focal point. It is true that in the Protestant service, God seems less of the focus and Jesus is the emphasis, almost to the point of having God hiding somewhere in the mix. But, I can understand why; Jesus is the "Mediator". Mary is the "intercessor", as well as many others including our mortal selves who've been sanctified/ righteous.

I think that we may share many similarities in theology/doctrine, but differ in terminology. Of course, we do have one major difference between us, Elpidio. I'm sure that you know exactly what I'm talking about. It centers on the word "exalted" and "divinity" in regards to Jesus. I have read the Scriptures that you've provided, but I'm still not convinced.

Kevin and David may not agree with the idea of Purgatory, even after your postings, Elpidio. The Scriptures do not flat out term it "purgatory", but neither does it flat out say that it doesn't exist. I have heard Luke 16 used to refute such a place. The argument deals with the inability for souls to communicate with others. The rich man cannot send a message to his brothers. Yet, we have the story in the Bible, which communicates the rich man's suffering to the world. Is that an example of an oxymoron or a paradox of sorts?
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 06, 2003.

Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Mat 17:4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

ok. So, where does this put Luke 16:26? Not only did Moses and Elias make an appearance, this would be possible in Luke 16:26, but to also talk would definate make us take a finer look at Luke 16:26.

Luke 16:26:

And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

You see? It doesn't say anything about "they" which would pass down to earth. It isn't talking about purgatory, but hell. Once in hell, that is it, there is no way out. Once in purgatory, the soul's journey is ultimately Heaven. Intercession does seem very possible from both sides--earth and Heaven--by both parties--mortals and saints. It sounds logical and convincing to me. Kevin or David?

rod.

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 06, 2003.

Ah! and don't confuse intercession and Mediator. Intercession is performed by any soul who is in good standing with God's grace; Mediator is Jesus Christ our Saviour.

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 06, 2003.

Elpidio,

You wrote,"Unfortunately, for these translators, we have been able to find a lot od documents, older than the Textus Receptus which shed light on the truth."

Agh, by this you mean the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus, aka the corrupt Roman manuscripts.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 06, 2003.

Jehovah says,

"For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands... but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:" Hebrews 9:24 / KJV

"Wherefore he (Jesus) is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them." Hebrews 7:25 / KJV

"... It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us." Romans 8:34 / KJV

"... he (Jesus) maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God." Romans 8:27 / KJV

"For through him (Jesus) we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father." Ephesians 2:18 / KJV

"According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: In whom we have boldness and access..." Ephesians 3:11-12 / KJV

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 06, 2003.

Excellent, David! Now, will you support the idea of us mortals who can petition and intercede for others? ...including the Saints?

Notice, Jesus is also an "intercessor", but He is the only "Mediator" in that only through Him can we have Salvation, not by any other. This is what "Mediator" means. You nor I can ever imagine being "Mediators". We can't even dream of anyone else being "Mediator". But, we can intercede for each other. I've seen it done plenty of times in many different churches--petitioning for each other's suffering.

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 06, 2003.

Well said , Rod, about your interpretation of Elijah and Moses. I couldn't have said better myself.

You know what is the hardest part in not accepting Jesus as God himself, Rod, in that you find yourself alone, without a church. That is why I asked God about it. The answer I had in July 2002. It is unfortunate that the Roman Catholic Church, the one I grew up with, will exist no more in the next 100 years.

Rod, David O. is telling you that Jesus is the only intercessor, not the saints.

You will begin to see cracks in the Roman Catholic Church after 2010, Rod. Then comes the end. I will get to see half of it, Rod.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), November 07, 2003.

Elpidio wrote, "Rod, this is a revelation from God. It is also in the Bible but not straightforward. Examples: Exd 3:6 Moreover he said, I [am] the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. For Yahweh to be the God of Abraham and company they had to be saved and in his presence, that is , already judged by him. This means, also, that we are judged as soon as we die, the way catholics believe, not the way Protestants believe. At least in the case of these 3 men, they had enough time to repent. All died peaceful deaths."

This example in Exodus 3:6 has absolutely NOTHING to do with their salvation NOR did this have anything at all to do with their judgment.

God says in Luke 20:38, "For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him." This statement in Luke 20:38 PROVES that this is what was meant in Exodus 3:6 and NOT what you FALSELY allege.

Elpidio wrote, "Deu 34:3 And the south, and the plain of the valley of Jericho, the city of palm trees, unto Zoar. Deu 34:4 And the LORD said unto him, This [is] the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, saying, I will give it unto thy seed: I have caused thee to see [it] with thine eyes, but thou shalt not go over thither. Deu 34:5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. Rod, you can see Moses sinned against God, so he wasn't allowed to enter Cannan. Yet, Rod, God calls him my servant after he is dead. That is, God had forgiven Moses his sin. So Moses had been judged already. Jos 1:2 Moses my servant is dead; now therefore arise, go over this Jordan, thou, and all this people, unto the land which I do give to them, [even] to the children of Israel."

Once again there is NO mention of judgment in these passages either. Elpidio ASSUMES this is what the passages teach however, just because someone is called a "servant of the LORD" after they have died does NOT mean that this had anything to do with judgment. Hebrews 9:27 states, "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,"

Elpidio wrote, "Then there is the strange case of King Saul who feels abandoned by God. He looks for a diviner. The diviner contacts the Spirit of the dead prophet Samuel. How can this be? 1Sa 28:14 And he said unto her, What form [is] he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he [is] covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it [was] Samuel, and he stooped with [his] face to the ground, and bowed himself. 1Sa 28:15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do. 1Sa 28:16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy? It is curious that Samuel knew what would happen to Saul, even though he was dead. This means Samuel had been judged by God. He was already with God. God told him what to tell Saul. (I know this passage is a killer for Kevin and David, Rod, their eyes won't be able to see it...)"

Samuel told Saul in 1 Sam 28:18, "Because you did not obey the voice of the LORD nor execute His fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore the LORD has done this thing to you this day."

Unfortunately for Elpidio, Samuel REMEMBERED what God had revealed to Saul earlier for in 1 Sam 15:1-3, Samuel told Saul, "?The LORD sent me to anoint you king over His people, over Israel. Now therefore, heed the voice of the words of the LORD. Thus says the LORD of hosts: 'I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he ambushed him on the way when he came up from Egypt. Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them. But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.' "

Saul did NOT OBEY the voice of God for 1 Sam 15:9 specifically states, "But Saul and the people spared Agag and the best of the sheep, the oxen, the fatlings, the lambs, and all that was good, and were unwilling to utterly destroy them. But everything despised and worthless, that they utterly destroyed."

Elpidio wrote, "Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious. Notice how Jesse, the father of David, is held in high esteem by the prophet Isaiah. Now, the root of Jesse is Jesus himself. Jesus is his descendant. This tells you God had already saved Jesse, Jesus ancestor."

The passage in question has NOTHING to do with the salvation of Jesse for this passage merely DECLARES that JESUS would be a descendant of Jesse and NOTHING MORE.

Elpidio wrote, "Notice what the prophet says about Jesus, that by his sacrifice, even more people will be saved. Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. So you see, God wants people to be saved, Ro, Kevin, and David. He doesn't want people to be lost. That is why he sent Jesus. The moment you understand that Kevin, you will be 99.99% closer to the Kingdom of God."

Yes, I understand that Jesus wants people to be saved for He says in 1 Timothy 2:4, "who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." And in 2 Peter 3:9 when He states, "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."

Elpidio wrote, "Here the prophet Zechariah speaks well of David. This means David was saved already. Zec 13:1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness"

Once again, just as noted earlier calling someone a "servant" or mentioning the "house of David" does NOT mean that David was saved already. You really have to S T R E T C H the truth to get this out of that passage!!!

Elpidio wrote, "God judged Jesus after he died: Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, The word used here for Hell in Greek is Hades(the tomb= sheol in Hebrew). David was not in Hell, David, he was in Purgatory. David had not yet ascended the Heavens. God had already judged David to be righteous. Righteous doesn't mean good , David O. It means, David did things that were Good before God. Yet David committed many sins deserving death."

There is NO PROOF that David was in Purgatory. Elpidio ASSUMES that this is the case, but he has absolutely NO PROOF of this being true.

Elpidio wrote, "This is what Jesus had to say about purgatory: Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. (The word here for Hell is Gehenna, the trash dump). Mat 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; Mat 5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. Mat 5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. Mat 5:26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.So we have to pay in the after life what we didn't pay on Earth, David O and Kevin."

Once again, Elpidio is doing a fine job of EISOGESIS but there is absolutely NO PROOF that this is the case!!! There is NO mention that this is in the "after life". This is most certainly talking about things on the EARTH, and not something that happens after one is dead.

Elpidio wrote, "I believe Rod, that not everyone gets a chance to come back to Earth and reincarnate: Case in point: Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Mat 17:4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. Elijah and Moses appeared with Jesus. These means they had been already been saved. Yet, God did not allow them to come back to Earth as mortals, only as messengers."

Please notice that these verses speak absolutely NOTHING about reincarnation. There is NO such thing as this FALSE DOCTRINE which Elpidio is guilty of promoting. This one verse Hebrews 9:27, "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment," puts to REST the FALSE notion that one can be reincarnated.

rod wrote, "Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Mat 17:4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. ok. So, where does this put Luke 16:26? Not only did Moses and Elias make an appearance, this would be possible in Luke 16:26, but to also talk would definate make us take a finer look at Luke 16:26. Luke 16:26: And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. You see? It doesn't say anything about "they" which would pass down to earth. It isn't talking about purgatory, but hell. Once in hell, that is it, there is no way out. Once in purgatory, the soul's journey is ultimately Heaven. Intercession does seem very possible from both sides--earth and Heaven--by both parties--mortals and saints. It sounds logical and convincing to me. Kevin or David?"

The passage in Matt 17:1-5 does not even speak of hell rod? Are you going to say that Moses and Elijah were in hell when they came up???

This passage is CONTRASTING the DIFFERENCE between the LAW (Moses), the PROPHETS (Elijah) and JESUS who the disciples were told to "Hear Him" that is Jesus. They were NOT to follow the LAW or the PROPHETS, but they were to FOLLOW JESUS. The "great gulf" that is fixed in Luke 16:26 is NOT purgatory, but this is merely a "gulf" so that "those who want to pass" CANNOT and that is ALL.

Your logic rod once again does NOT make any sense.

Intercession (as you call it) is ONLY possible when God ALLOWS IT. This was a SPECIAL CASE in which God was showing the Apostles who they were to FOLLOW. This does NOT PROVE that anyone who has died can intercede for anyone here on this earth.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 07, 2003.

Hi, David,

I know your virgin Protestant mind doesn't let you see other points of view. I am not talking only about Sinaiticus and Vaticanus, David Ortiz. You know there is much more than that: The dead sea scrolls mostly about the old Testament and the beliefs of the Essenes. Read them when you get a chance. If you read Melchizedeq, you will understand why Jesus becomes the mediator. Why is he seen in priestly terms.

Besides the scrolls, there are over 2500 Greek new testament documents Uncials(capital letters) minuscules (small letters). We have the translations into syriac (Aramaic- try reading an aramaic translation Dave, you will be in shock), Egyptian, Armenian, Arabic, old Latin (before the vulgate), ..

Then the Gnostic documents and other new testament books from Nag Hamadi in Egypt. Rod has made some links to them.

My favorite book not in the Gospel is the Gospel of Thomas. Once you realize Thomas is the backbone to Chapters 5-7, 8-13, 18, 23-24 of Matthew, then your eyes get wide open. Thomas' sayings are shorter.97% of Mark is in Matthew. Yet, you are still young. I was 19 when I began to read books not included in the Bible. I am now 40. I gained insight why most of them were rejected.

Some were rejected in part by the Church: The Protoevagelium of James (abut Mary's virginity and immaculate conception, parents of Mary: Anna and Joachim), the Preaching of Peter (shows Peter at Rome), The Didache, Apostolic Costitutions,...

You are a Hispanic like me, how did you end up in the Assemblies of God?

And by the way, can you still see the difference in Greek and Hebrew od Gehenna=trash dump, Hades=Sheol=tomb?

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), November 07, 2003.

Kevin where did you get the idea that I had put Moses in hell? You wrote:" The passage in Matt 17:1-5 does not even speak of hell rod? Are you going to say that Moses and Elijah were in hell when they came up??? ". Where do you think the demons come from? Heaven? Of course not! They were cast out a long time ago.

Elpidio

It is very interesting, your comments about the Church collapsing. I'm sure that Kevin and David will agree on that point. If such a thing were to happen--the collapse--it would prove one thing. Kevin and David will of course be proven correct about the Church. But, the Church will not collapse; everyone in it will because of their human fault. That will be the rational of the Church and they will claim that the Church never collapsed. There may be some truth to that. History has shown us such a cycle.

rod..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 07, 2003.

Elpidio said, "You know what is the hardest part in not accepting Jesus as God himself, Rod, in that you find yourself alone, without a church. That is why I asked God about it. The answer I had in July 2002."

Elpidio, please kindly elaborate.

-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), November 07, 2003.

Kevin-"Your logic rod once again does NOT make any sense. "

rod- Of course it doesn't! We don't believe the same things.

rod..

..

.

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 07, 2003.

rod,

I made the statement about Moses and Elijah becuase you said, "You see? It doesn't say anything about "they" which would pass down to earth. It isn't talking about purgatory, but hell."

If I misunderstood you, please accept my apology. :-)

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 07, 2003.

It is interesting to note that James does NOT offer any passages that state that anyone in heaven is "interceding" for those who are here on earth.

He will NOT offer any of these passages either because there is NO SUCH THING as anyone "interceding" or even "knowing" what is happening here on earth. "For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten." (Ecclesiastes 9:5).

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 07, 2003.

The Catholic Church claims that they are "Infallible"

Let?s reason this out, The Holy Spirit dwells within the individual Christian, and each individual "fallible" Christian makes up the Church.

So, does this make the Church "fallible" also?

Of course it does!!!

No human was (with the exception of Jesus) or is infallible.

The Bible says in Colossians 4:16, "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord."

The Holy Spirit indwells each Christian ONLY when they obey the gospel (Acts 2:38) and continues to indwell them ONLY if they continue to OBEY Jesus.

John 8:31 says, "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed." The written word of God forever remains the ONLY guide which instructs to salvation (2 Timothy 3:15-17).

There is NO MENTION of an "infallible" interpreter needed nor desired.

When men do not understand the Word of God, the fault lies with THEM, NOT with the Word itself.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 07, 2003.

rod,

You said,"Where do you think the demons come from?"

Demons are Satan's creation.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 08, 2003.

Elpidio said,"You are a Hispanic like me, how did you end up in the Assemblies of God?"

Yes I am Hispanic. My mother grew up Catholic (All my relatives are Catholic) till she was in her late 20's until (Thank God) she saw the corruption and false doctrines in the Roman organization (because it went against what the bible said) and left it.

She found a church, named Assemblies of God, liked it and continued going there till this day. I left that church (El Divino Redentor) and joined one called First Assembly of God and am looking to get baptized there.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 08, 2003.

Hi David.

We were once the same. Don't call it "corruption" when you don't understand it. Be honest and say that you don't accept it. For all we know, your Pentecostalism may be just another "corruption" of the truth. Your own church tells of God's Grace existing in other churches. "Arrogance of men", where have I heard that before?

rod..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 08, 2003.

I invested some time in the Pentecostal Church. I agreed with parts of its doctrine and rejected others. I didn't go around calling the church corrupt.

rod..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 08, 2003.

That makes "My personal Savior" very skimpy. It should be, as I've always said, "Jesus Christ our Savior".

rod..

..

.

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 08, 2003.

Ay!

-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), November 08, 2003.

To James and David O,

Rod knows more about my story. If you type my name , Elpidio Gonzalez in Google, you will all the threads I initiated or participated in the Catholic Forum.

I was born a Catholic. I worked for the Catholic Church. I was vicepresident at one time of catholic Action in Los Angeles in the 1980s.

My Church refused to marry me. They accused me of being an Arrian.

Since 1986 I began to have dreams that came true. By 2000, on July 23, 2003, I had a dream in 4 parts.

First I saw a little rock trying to move a big mountain.

Then I saw God. He showed me Protestants with Bibles at hand at a meeting. He told me to preach to the. I couldn't see God's body or face. I only saw the light coming out of him. This light did not allow me to see him. He spoke to me in English and spanish.

Later, I saw Jesus dressed in the old dress style of his days. He appeared when a group of Hispanic Catholics were at a swap meet. It was raining. They were asking Jesus for help when they realized they would lose their merchandise.

Jesus stopped the rain. Then they went back to their selling. Jesus got angry because they never thanked him. They forgot him. So he says: It will continue to rain, but not hard, so they won't lose their merchandise. It will not rain hard for 3 years. It came true.

If you saw the news about San Bernardino and Los angeles fires in October you understand that we are still in a dry season 3 years after the dream.

Finally, I saw the little rock moving the mountain: I said adfter asking, Faith moves mountains(In Spanish) "La fe mueve montanas".

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), November 10, 2003.

Elpidio,

Since you are denying the Divinity of Jesus Christ (you are saying that He is 100%Man and 0%God), it is understandable why the Most Holy Catholic Church would refuse to marry you ~ for to be a Catholic means full communion with the Catholic Church and ALL her Sacred and Infallible Teachings throughout her 2000 year history. You seem to be living in a time warp ~ you are dealing with antagonistic issues against the Nature of Jesus Christ which were dealt with by The Catholic Church during the fourth to seventh Century A.D. I read a few of the threads you referred me to ~ you seem to have fallen into error as you were making translations of your own (you fell in the ditch singularly and you were enticed by the ancient evil spirit of the heresy of Arianism). The Catholic scholars and translators were prevented from error because of the Divine Guidance of the Holy Spirit upon them, the Magisterium of the Catholic Church. I think you ought to base your belief in the Nature of Jesus Christ from the Teachings of holy and wise Catholic priests, throughout Two Milleniums, with superior scholarship and wisdom to yours ~ well, that will take humility. Unless God implicitly gave you the gift of translation, I think you ought to rely on holy men who possessed that gift of translation for 2000 years.

I also do not want to negate your dream ~ but you have to contrast you dream with the Eternal Truth of the Teachings of the Most Holy Catholic Church. If your dream is in disagreement with the Eternal Truth of the Church's Teachings, then obviously your dream is in error as well. The mystical experiences of Catholic mystics like St. Teresa of Avila and St. Bernadette are in Agreement and in Harmony with the Teachings of the Magisterium of the Holy Catholic Church.

I hope that you will be able to reconcile your current erroneous and dangerous beliefs with the Sacred and Infallible Teachings of the Most Holy Catholic Church ~ the Pillar and Foundation of Truth ~ of your youth.

-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), November 12, 2003.

James, My teachers in Religious studies at the University and in college were doctors in Theology, former Jesuits trained in Rome who probabluy had seen the light. They taught me how to approach scripture from different angles.

Hans Kung and Martin Luther , also doctors in Theology have been my inspiration.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), November 12, 2003.

Elpidio,

If you put it that way,

Lucifer had also seen the Light of God

but he was disobedient to God's Commands and Plan.

-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), November 12, 2003.

Lucifer is a Latin name. It is not in the Bible, James. It was a common name even in the 3rd century AD.

If you talk about Satan, the accuser, then, as found in Job, that was his job description:To accuse people before God. That is why God allowed those things done to Job.

If you are talking about the Satan of Jesus, Baalzebul,he calls him the Father of lies (actually the God of flies).

Isaiah has been used to make the King of Tyre be Satan, that is far from the truth.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), November 12, 2003.

Satan for you then.

-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), November 12, 2003.

But, Satan goes by over a million names, even Saturn. Early Egyptian religion viewed the serpent/snake as the wise or intellectual being. Actually, the snake was a good guy later to become the great lier. I've read about the "flies" reference.

rod..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 13, 2003.

Uh......"liar"......sorry. Some of the world's best liars are the nicest people you could ever want to me.

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 13, 2003.

Among our people , the Nahuatl speaking ones: Aztecs, Texcocans,... Quetzalcoatl the feathered serpent was considered a good God.

Remember the story of how Montezuma believed Hernan Cortez was Quetzalcoatl?

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), November 13, 2003.

Yes, that's another "messiah" belief. The feathered bird descending from the sky. And, we all know the doom that befell Montezuma.

rod..

..

.

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 13, 2003.

bumper snicker "drive like Hell, you will get there". just my 3 cents.

-- former (sezme40@hotmail.com), November 15, 2003.

Elpidio said, “Lucifer is a Latin name. It is not in the Bible.”

You are very mistaken. Lucifer is in the Bible:

"'How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, who didst rise in the morning? how art thou fallen to the earth, that didst wound the nations? And thou saidst in thy heart: I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God, I will sit in the mountain of the covenant, in the sides of the north. I will ascend above the height of the clouds, I will be like the most High. But yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, into the depth of the pit' ~ Isaiah 14:12-15. This parable of the prophet is expressly directed against the King of Babylon, but both the early Fathers and later Catholic commentators agree in understanding it as applying with deeper significance to the fall of the rebel angel. And the older commentators generally consider that this interpretation is confirmed by the words of Our Lord to his disciples: "I saw Satan like lightning falling from heaven" (Luke 10:18). For these words were regarded as a rebuke to the disciples, who were thus warned of the danger of pride by being reminded of the fall of Lucifer." ~ Catholic Encyclopedia

"Lucifer is the name of the principal fallen angel who must lament the loss of his original glory as the morning star. In Christian tradition this meaning of Lucifer prevailed." ~ Catholic Encyclopedia

-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), November 15, 2003.

can transfer himself into an angel of light as well. scarey stuff. makes me think of the comedian who died in car accident, sam kinnison. was a preacher before turning to comedy.

-- former (sezme40@hotmail.com), November 15, 2003.

Ok, I don't know where people go anymore. I would think that since time is relative when we are dead, so it would be just like a blink of an eye and then we are at judgements.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 06, 2003.

Are we free to accept or reject the Gospel? People reject the Gospel because they are not free. They are bound by sin. They love the darkness rather than the light. The grace of God is what makes us free to choose the truth - in this case the truth of God's word. When it becomes a matter of choosing between the word of God and the word of man, there can be no contest. We are bound to believe and accept the word of God. Not to accept it is to call God a liar.

Jesus once sent 72 disciples into the towns, which He himself intended to visit. Can you imagine Jesus saying, "Now have great 'respect' for the beliefs of these people, because religious freedom is a basic human right. Most of them will be believing Jews, but some will be believers in Moloch or Astarte. Enter into dialogue with them, and we will build a civilization of love."

Here, in part, is what Jesus actually did say:

"But whatever town you enter and they do not receive you - go out into its streets and say, 'Even the dust from your town that cleaves to us we shake off against you; yet know this, that the kingdom of God is at hand.' I say to you, that it will be more tolerable for Sodom in that day than for that town." (Luke 10:10-12) Jesus said about Capharnaum, "And thou, Capharnaum, shalt thou be exalted to Heaven? Thou shalt be thrust down to hell! For if the miracles had been worked in Sodom that have been worked in thee, it would have remained to this day." (Mt.11:23)

Clearly, human beings do not have a "basic human right" to refuse the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

-- Bonkers (Bonkers@yonkers.com), December 06, 2003.

"And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."

Hell is the place where those who die in their sins go at death. It is eventually cast into the lake of fire. And indeed I am sure hell is rather a crowded place today, as it is the 'many' that will ultimately end up there at death to await the 'second death' reserved for those whose names are not written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

-- Gillian Dickenson (Gilliantwin@msn.com), February 05, 2004.

What you said , Gillan, is impossible.

How big do you think is the lake of fire to completely engulf Hell?

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), February 05, 2004.

Dear Elpidio, "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." Rev.20:14

God said hell is eventually cast into the lake of fire. If it was just a theory of mine I would defer to your greater wisdom. Yet "with God nothing is impossible" and I am sure the dimensions of hell and the lake of fire are quite adequate for its use.

-- Gillian Dickenson (Gilliantwin@msn.com), February 06, 2004.

Gillian,

I believe Revelation uses metaphors, figures of spech instead of he real thing.

I believe Hell is the absence of light, since God is light.

The Man of Yahweh The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), February 06, 2004.

Dear Elpidio, I am afraid I am one of those fools that takes the Word of God to mean what it says *smile*. That Book is my final authority. There is a lot of speculation on the book of Revelation, for its events have not yet occurred. However, I see no reason not to take it literally where no symbolism is obvious. I believe when it says hell is cast into the lake of fire, as is the beast, false prophet and all those not written in the Lamb's Book of Life, that it means simply that.

As for hell being a place of darkness I agree, but I think perhaps it may be a different darkness than the absence of literal light. I say this because in Luke 16 the man in hell could clearly see Abraham and Lazarus and also he mentions flames and of course we know that fire is light. Darkness is mentioned as the absence of Christ Who is light in scripture so perhaps it may mean simply that. Just a thought.

Take care and God Bless

-- Gillian Dickenson (Gilliantwin@msn.com), February 07, 2004.

There are other references to "fire" as a means of putting something to the test. So, could the "lake of fire" be such a reference?

.................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 07, 2004.

dear rod,

I agree that some references to fire in scripture are to do with refining. However the lake of fire appears not to be so, for three reasons: 1) Rev.20:10 tells us it is a place of torment for 'ever and ever'. 2) Rev.20:14 tells us it is the second 'death' and therefore final, there is no third death in scripture. 3) Rev.20:15 tells us that all who are not written in the Lamb's Book of Life are cast therein after their complete judgement by God, judgment making refining or testing unneccessary.

-- Gillian Dickenson (Gilliantwin@msn.com), February 08, 2004.

Clarity is such a wonderful thing.

............................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 08, 2004.