Former and fellow seminarians:

I have simple yet difficult questions.

1) On average, how long did it take for you to complete your seminary work?

2) Also, did you work full time and attend school part time, or some combination of the two?

Frankly, I am preparing to have a dual occupation in higher education and ministry, but it seem as if my employer is being used to make seminary work impossible for me.

-- Anonymous, July 17, 2003

Answers

It can take 2 - 4 years depending on what degree you are pursuing. Consider taking it distance or online for a more flexible options. Faith Evangelical Lutheran Seminary or Regent University offer these options. Both are accredited and offer up to Doctorate Degrees. I am competing a MTS this summer and will continue on with an MDiv from Faith and plan complete my formal education with a Doctorate from Regent.

-- Anonymous, July 17, 2003

A master of Divinity degree (M.Div) is a three year program beyond a bachelors degree. It is up to you how long it takes.

I am an alum of Princeton Seminary and I got my M.Div in three years, I also worked and was a single mom.

Hang in there you will get it done. God will make a way for you. Also, my seminary required two years of field education, which meant we had to intern for two of our three years. It was great training the internship.

-- Anonymous, July 17, 2003

I just want to say one thing about accredidation and seminary. The largest and most recognized accrediting agency for seminaries is ATS association of theological schools www.ats.edu

Please make sure you check with your Bishop and/or presiding elder if you are attending a seminary that is not accredited by ATS. To make sure the A.M.E. Church will recognize your credentials.

There are many accrediting agency but the ATS is the most recognized. Shaunna I think you said you are at the Brethren Seminary. They are ATS.

-- Anonymous, July 18, 2003

Here's something interesting, I know its kind of off the subject, but on the subject at the same time. Did you know that Harvard is not "accredited". :)

-- Anonymous, July 18, 2003

Harvard, being unabashedly elitist, "chooses" not to align itself with many departmental accrediting bodies because to do so would mean the school would have to comply with the code of regulations associated with accreditation. No one is concerned about accreditation if your credentials were confirmed at the tier 1 institutions. Accreditation is really designed to give legitimacy to the lesser-prestigious schools. This is not a put down to the tier 3 and below schools, simply a statement of fact. The mere fact that "Harvard is Harvard" demands a level of quality far above perfunctory accrediting bodies. When you have the largest university endowment in excess of $2 billion dollars you are in a position to call your own shots. So as Rev. Nicole suggests, it's unlikely your seminary credential will be "suspect" if it was confirmed by HDS :-) QED

-- Anonymous, July 18, 2003

Harvard Divinity School is accredited. It is a member of ATS. you can go to the ATS website to vheck www.ats.edu

Now that the A.M.E. Church is requiring a M.Div degree to receive Elder's orders. It is important that accredidation be checked and also discuss with your Bishop your seminary choice.

-- Anonymous, July 18, 2003

One other foot note in regard to Harvard, Charles Street A.M.E., Grant A.M.E. and St. Paul A.M.E. provide field education experience, which is required at Harvard. I am proud of our A.M.E. Churches for agreeing to help A.M.E. students. It is a lot paperwork for the pastors and weekly supervision.

I remember when I was in seminary how hard it was to get churches to sign up for the field education program because of the paper work.

These churches are to be commended for it is good to know that A.M.E. students who attend Harvard will have support.

-- Anonymous, July 18, 2003

Harvard is indeed accredited it is accredited through the New England association of colleges, Boston University, andover-newton seminary are also accredited by this agency.

-- Anonymous, July 18, 2003

Denise- Thanks. I stand corrected about HDS and its accreditation status. I thought it was one of several schools at Harvard which choose not to be accredited. I know when I used to follow this issue closely in the 90s Harvard Business School was NOT accredited by the American Association of College Business Schools (AACSB) precisely for reasons previously stated. Now what employer is going to deny a job offer to a recently minted MBA from HBS just because his credential was not accredited by AACSB? Case closed. The same would be true if HDS was not accredited. Ivy League institutions and the other premier Tier 1 schools (Stanford, Berkeley, UMich, U of Chicago, MIT, etc.) maintain a permanent waiver when evaluating job applicants. Accreditation only matters for Tier 2 schools and below. QED

-- Anonymous, July 19, 2003

Bill we must always be careful and check the facts for ourselves. It is impossible for me to believe that Ivy League schools are not accredited. For they have to be to accept federal funds for pell grants, federal student loans, work study etc.

As a professor and an economist it might be helpful if you email Harvard business school and ask what their accredidation is. They may be under the umbrella of the schools accredidation.

The Ivy League schools are some of the best in the world. They have top professors, libraries, any student who can be admitted to these schools should be encouraged to apply. For our african-american students are bright and hard workers. Sometimes students do not apply because they feel they will not get in. But they might.

Education is important. I also would like to encourage young people to think about going for their Ph.D also. Professor's are retiring and dying and there will and is a need for professors especially in the field of theology.

It is true that one does not need a Ph.D to teach on the university level. But to get tenure and large research grants, a Ph.D is necessary. It can be done.

-- Anonymous, July 19, 2003

Sister Shaunna:

Like others have stated Seminary in a normal workd is three years give or take if you go to Summer School or if you make a "C-" or lower you have to retake a course at the ITC. Our degree program is 89 hours and we have aconcentration whether than write a thesis. So I know my school is accreditated and AME approved. YOU need to check with your Bishop and see if the church approves the school you are attending. i have never heard of your school but i have not worked my whole time in Seminary and I must say " God has provided", Seminarians look out for other Seminarians. It is like a fraternity among themselves. So while you are in school you will meet friend sand associates across deniominational lines that will allow you to preach for rent money or lunch money for the week. I ahve been there and hod has never failed me yet.

-- Anonymous, July 19, 2003

Denise -

You might find it incredulous to believe but I can assure you that HBS was not accredited during the period (mid-late 90s)when I was involved in this issue. The purpose of accrediting bodies is to simply define standards and set quality control methods to foster excellence in the teaching of a given subject matter. As a former Harvard Fellow I know first hand that the folks in Cambridge don't think too highly of others dictating what should be the gold standard for excellence at their august institution. Harvard takes these matters very seriously which is why they opt not to join in some cases. Now granted I left my fellowship in the late 80s but I would be shocked if the elitist thinking has changed since my departure. It serves little purpose for me to contact HBS about their accreditation status. Even if they have chosen to join AACSB it means absolutely NOTHING for prospective employers. When employers review resumes and they see HBS it rarely if ever occurs to the reviewing officical that the applicant's credential is suspect because it was not recognized by the AACSB. Likewise, I doubt very seriously an AME Bishop would ask for proof of accreditation if an AME clergy holds an academic credential from a top tier university or any of the outstanding Divinity Schools overseas. QED

-- Anonymous, July 19, 2003

Bill, Harvard's school of business is accredited. They have several accredidations the "American association of colliagiate business schools international" which was founded in 1906 is one of their accrediting agency. This is the premiere agency and the major Ivy league schools belong to this agency. Their website is:

http://www.aacsb.edu/General/InstLists.asp?lid=2

-- Anonymous, July 19, 2003

Shaunna, we off on accredidation, (I assumed you are at Bethany Seminary, if so it is accredited by ATS, association of theological schools) but I want to make sure you felt your questions were being answered. Seminary is a LOT OF WORK! And three years of a LOT OF WORK. Brother Forbes is so right, God will give you strength. I have friends, professors and the president of my seminary that I still stay in touch with. Many a night my daughter who was 12 would be in the library with me helping me do research. I also signed up as a guest preacher at my seminary which, helped for I usually got between $150.00 and $200.00. I worked the switch board, took out loans, worked in the summer and held on to hem of Jesus's robe.

I had help from many of seminary friends who knew I was a single mom, and they would help me also. Also when you do field educaion you will get a stipend, and churchs usually give you extra money, because the pastor remembers what it was like. I have to tell you a funny story. My second year of seminary I did my field ed. at a united methodist church in a small town in new jersey. Three weeks before Christmas the congregation gave the pastor and I a luncheon. They asked both of us what we wanted for christmas, he said he wanted their love, I said "five hundred dollars and a red porshe" we all laughed because I was kidding. Well at the Christmas eve service the head trustee asked us both to stand for the congregation wanted to give us our christmas presents, they handed me a box, I opened and inside was $500.00 and a miniture red toy porshe! The pastor opened his envelope and inside the card it said "we love you" The pastor teased me and said "I think I better reread that passage, ask and ye shall receive."

You will get help from God, make friends with people in the placement office and call them regularly and drop by. For they often times will get the request for guest preacher and will know about the best part time and summer jobs.

I am so proud of you for going to seminary and if there is anything I can do to help please write me privately. You will make it, also stay in touch with your Presiding Elder and Bishop throughout the year. And encourage your seminary to invite your Bishop to come and preach at your seminary. It will be a blessing to your seminary. Also one of the things I do with my seminary is to write them and I make suggestions of A.M.E. preachers, bishops etc. who should be asked to preach and be visiting scholars. I do because I am proud of our denomination and we need more A.M.E. professors. You will make it and please send me an invitation to your graduation. I would love to be there. I might even talk Bill Dickens into coming.

-- Anonymous, July 19, 2003

I was blessed to receive a fellowship to attend seminary. Boston University provided a fellowship for minority students graduating from undergrad with a high GPA. I was able to meet numerous people and develop lasting relationships. My class at BU was one of the first to ask the administration to include AME Churches such as Charles Street, St. Paul and Grant as field education sites. The Black Seminarians was an organization instrumental in keeping us in touch with other African American seminarians. I thank God for Charles Street and Rev. Mickarl Thomas, who was the pastor at the time. He hired me as the minister to the youth. I was paid $75.00 a Sunday! Man, I was living large back in the day! Charles Street helped me a great deal...and was a blessing!

-- Anonymous, July 19, 2003

Ray I am so glad to hear that your class was instrumental in getting A.M.E. churches involved in field education. As I have said in a previous post Charles Street, Grant, and St. Paul ame are also working with Harvard field ed.

I too received an academic scholarship from Princeton Seminary and it helped tremendously. We too had a black seminarian association. And every year there is a conference of black seminarians at Princeton seminary. The president of princeton seminary is retiring in 2004 Dr. Gillespie, he fought hard for recruitment of black, latino and native american students. There was and still is a small percentage of african-americans who attend Princeton.

By the way I have notice a large number of ame pastors who have their m.div from boston university. I am curious as to why that is, is there an a.m.e connection at Boston U.?

-- Anonymous, July 19, 2003

Denise -

Thanks for the link. Harvard's membership in AACSB is apparently quite recent (last couple of years) which I prefaced in my earlier comments. During my involvement with AACSB Harvard Business School was not a member. Perhaps the Dean of HBS Kim B. Clark and President Larry Summers (both brilliant economists I might add) decided to join so that the officials at AACSB can be happy about reigning in the "Big Daddy of B-Schools". As I indicated earlier HBS as a member of AACSB means absolutely nothing for job seekers, employers or academicians. This topic is really quite irrelevant among members in the academy. QED

-- Anonymous, July 20, 2003

Thanks for your encouragement Rev. Denise. We actually had a staff meeting today at the College where I work, and all of us shared how taxed our time is during the school year, so at least now I don't feel alone in this!

-- Anonymous, July 21, 2003

Shaunna, believe it or not all the juggling you are doing between work and studies. Really prepares you for ministry for being a pastor one has to function at a level of multi-task. When I was United Methodist they required that all potential clergy take a psychological battery of tests. It was four hours of testing, they wanted to weed out those who had psychological problems and yes I passed the test. One of the things the test also did was to identify areas that were our strengths and weaknesses, you then would work with your mentor. We all complained about the about of work we had to do. But when we were assigned to churches and saw how much work Pastors really do we were amazed. There was counseling, supervision of staff, bills to be paid, up keep of the church building, committer meetings, being a part of community associations and that was on top of preparing sermons, preaching doing funerals, and weddings. Members call at all hours, pastor's spend more time at church than at home. We began to realize that what we were going through in seminary would prepare us for ministry. The times you get weary and want to quit, and everyone has those days in seminary, sit with Jesus and pray he will revive you. I use to make my professors laugh because would say being in seminary was like an "experential experience of hell." I thought it would be a place that would be relaxing, we would pray discuss ministry etc. But it is intense, hard graduate work. We go to school as long as lawyers and doctors.

I was told when I left seminary it would take five years in ministry to appreciate seminary. I appreciate my seminary experience more and more every year. It is worth it! Without a doubt it is worth it!

We are called to be educated leaders for Christ. Don't give up and I am so proud of you. Usually by the second year you figure out a rhythm, the first year it is shell shock because there is so much being presented to you. I am proud of you and God will make a way. Love you.

-- Anonymous, July 21, 2003