Hi y'all.

I've been doing a lot of thinking about relationships lately (probably because of all the stuff going on with a spouse having major surgery). So I've been doing some surfing online. One website I visited (can't remember which unfortunately, off-hand, but it has M. Gary Neuman as a participant...he has an article "Why You Don't Have to Have Sex to Cheat") talks about infidelity...that a spouse is actually "cheating" even if s/he isn't having sex with someone outside the marriage IF:

The spouse is sharing jokes/stories with others at the office (and not with spouse);

Discussing work stuff with others (and not with spouse);

Goes out alone to lunch or after work with member of opposite sex (MOS, for short);

Enjoys harmless (by "your" definition) flirtation with MOS at cocktail party, believing that flirting with MOS is helpful to marriage relationship;

Spending as much time buying the "right gift" for MOS as one would for spouse;

Ride-sharing with personal coversation alone with MOS on the way to meetings or work-related events;

And finally (LAST BUT NOT LEAST) sharing intimate issues about yourself or marriage with MOS.

The above, according to this fellow (M. Gary Neuman in his book "Emotional Infidelity"), indicate(s) that one is being emotionally unfaithful to one's spouse...spending emotional energy on others and using it up without any left over for the spouse. "You're effectively relocating vital marital energy into the hands of others. Forget about where it might end up. Even if you never touch this other person, you have still used that person to relate to, and in doing so, you relate away from your spouse."

Okay. This isn't war...but it IS a topic. I would be very interested in hearing responses from folks. Do you agree that a spouse can be unfaithful by spending emotional energy on others (particularly MOS) that could be (more appropriately?) directed toward the spouse? Or not even spouses...what about significant others?

Looking forward to your answers here folks!!! Thanks

-- Anonymous, April 05, 2003

Answers

Since my new interest that I hope to find a long term relationship with, is a Texan and packs a hawgleg, even if I was a flirter, I would have quit :>) Seriously, I personally do not associate outside the circle of aquaintences that occur after I settle down. I choose not to have individual friends of my own and avoid contact with friends that I had before my relationship, unless they are also considered close friends by the woman that I am seriously dating or married to. I consider my spouse my first friend.

-- Anonymous, April 05, 2003

Every year, my husband gets a calendar of girls with big boobs holding power tools.

I had this one male friend that kept trying to push an affair on me.

Neither one of us feel intimitated by others and feel really confident in our marriage.

I think some of the items listed that Neuman considers cheating is unbelievable. He must really have a low self-esteem.

-- Anonymous, April 05, 2003

Hmm. Okay. How would you feel if your spouse bought swimwear for women friends and spent a considerable amount of time finding the "right swimsuit" for gifts?

-- Anonymous, April 05, 2003

My first reaction was similar to Dee's, though I didn't think about this guy's self-esteem or lack thereof. ;-) I looked at it really superficially, thinking about my friendly relationships with men who are married to close friends. You know, hugging, teasing, that kind of thing -- no big deal. But when I got to the part about spending the emotional energy, it started to make sense. So, yes, I think he is correct -- at least in the sort of examples he gives.

But, it's complex -- I think there are exceptions. People also expend emotional energy relating to others -- such as their parents, children, and friends. I think the crux of it is whether or not it's interfering with or slighting your relationship with your partner. A sick child or and elderly parent can do that, but mostly, partners try to be understanding of that sort of thing -- after all, the tables might turn, and the partner will need the understanding the next day. That's a compromise that most partnerships make, including the wish to make things easier for the partner who is expending emotional energy under stress. But there are people who become so overly obsessed with their children or are so completely tied to their parents that the partner is neglected, and I think that is also a form of emotional infidelity. Just without the connotations of "possible" extramarital sex (hopefully!).

-- Anonymous, April 05, 2003

There is of course no answer to this one cause everyone is different. Barb and I are completely committed and we don't even live together. We've been so trusting that I have a female backpacking partner and she has male dancing partners.

People just need to work it out and never do anything sneaky that would cause pain.

25 years we must be doing something right!.....Kirk

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2003

I don't mean to muddy the waters here but I'm not sure its a one size fits all kinda issue.

By that I mean people are different. Some are naturally gregarious, outgoing, even bawdy. Others are more reserved, shy etc. so to some extent they will settle to their own comfort level. If they're married to a dissimilar sort there are likely to be issues unless there's alot of trust and understanding.

It took me alot of years to get comfortable with women and just relate to them person to peron. I spose it was some kinda fruedian thing.

My wife gets jealous but to me I'm just being friendly, kind, understanding or whatever. Its completely harmless tho and I should know. I'm the one who knows my own heart best.

Personally I don't think its realistic to expect my spouse to share ALL my interests nor do I want her to expect me to share all hers. If we have a friend of the opposite sex who does share one of our interests we have to walk a kind of tight rope tho so we don't "lead the friend on" while at the same time reassuring our spouse that we're just friends who share an interest that we don't happen to share with our spouse. Its tricky business.

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2003

Sheepish, Great subject. Now I have not read anyone's responses yet. But he first thing that came to my mind is that it all depends on the motive. The motive in the persons heart that is doing the communicating. Now if I rode home with a fellow and I wanted him, and talked alluringly to him, yes then that would be unfaithfulness to my husband. If I was unfaithful in my thoughts , thinking of this man in that way, then Yes I think that is unfaithfulness.

But if I enjoyed this other fellows company like a friend. To me sharing comradeship is not being unfaithful. My husband has female friends and I have male friends. We do not feel uncomfortable with that, because we know that we love each other. We are comfortable enough in our love, that we do not have to worry about each others faithfulness. I guess I think that it is not so much what you do, as what you mean.

Funny this reminds me of the news lately about the man who had his wife with a chain around her neck. This was how she was kept!

Now I'm gonna go read what everybody else said.

smiles, Tren

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2003

Personally just reading about the kind of relationship this Gary Neuman fella is describing makes me feel like I'm suffocating. Like several people said, this is an individual thing; people and relationships are too complex and different from all others to make such generalized assumptions.

I am of the mind that his view is for most couples a recipe for disaster. I have long thought that one of the major reasons for the high divorce rate is because couples think they are supposed to be everything to each other. I don't think it's possible to be all things to another person, with rare exceptions, and I don't see it as a good thing to stive for. It feels to me like insecurity and control. True love, which must be based on respect, engenders trust, and couples who are trustful of each other's love don't feel the need to control or judge our partner's behaviour unless we fear there are parts of them they keep hidden.

I think when we try to be our partner's everything, we end up giving up too much of our individual selves, because the interests we do not share have to put away or hidden, and we are unable to express the unique selves we came here to be. I also think it engenders frustration and eventually resentment, because it is in most cases an impossible goal, making both parties feel like failures.

If someone is spending a good part of their emotional energy on things or people to the neglect of their relationship, obviously there is a problem with their relationship to cause this sitution, to make one feel more comfortable somewhere else than at home, and that needs to be addressed. One's first priority has to be the relationship, but I don't think it's healthy in most cases to close oneself off from all the other wonderful experiences and relationships one encounters because of what I see as a motivation of fear.

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2003

First priority must be to make your partner happy. While I personally didnt want to associate with other people, my ex wanted space, so I bought a plastic boat and trolling motor and when she said she wanted me away from the house, I went fishing on the creek. This way I wasnt compromising my values, she got her "space" and her boyfriend and I didn't end up in a gunfight. :>)

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2003

Snicker....sheepish, my husband doesn't even get a card for someone, never mind shopping for something.

I would be annoyed if he say, kept going over a woman's house to fix her car. Not because I feel intimatated but because he has things to do here.

Also, if it was cheating to talk about things that happened at home with people at work, I wouldn't have any fun at all because my husband does so really funny things sometimes. Remember the car and deer?

I guess what everyone else is saying (but better then me) it all depends on the person and relationship. My husband and I don't worry about each other and our relationship. AND I feel confident telling him about men that proposition me and he feels confident telling me about the women that flash him. (some women really do try stuff to get out of getting a ticket :)

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2003

Hmm. Thanks for your answers. Mr. S. and I have always been pretty independent (at least in most ways), but I sometimes have to wonder if we're nuts. Still, one wants one's partner to WANT to be there, not HAVE to be there. But then, what's the point of marriage vows? Where do you draw the line on yours/mine/ours?

Let's say Spouse A1 has a friend of opposite sex (POS1). POS1 flirts openly (maybe even outrageously) with Spouse A1. This POS1 has just left own spouse, and is getting divorced. Spouse A2, while trying to be a "good sport," is getting weary of the flirting and increasingly irritated (which can make A2 look like the "bad guy"). Spouse A1 says it's all in good fun and that POS1 is lonely, etc. What responsibility does Spouse A1 have to Spouse A2 in the way of behavior modification (or?)? I've seen some nasty affairs and divorces b/c of situations that started out similar to the "innocent" scenario above...(believe me!!).

Just curious. At midlife, I'm watching variations of this playing a bit more often. And I think my perspective may be changing some, too. Any more comment?

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2003

A lot of this reminds me of that "submissive wife" blow-out we had a while ago.

If I couldn't talk about things with anyone other than my spouse then I'd just have to take a vow of silence because as I've mentioned before, Keith doesn't talk. That's not saying we don't communicate, I just have to interpret a lot of non-verbal cues. So does that mean he's being emotionally unfaithful to me because he doesn't spend emotional energy (by M Gary Neuman's standards)with anyone including me?

For me at least, a lot depends on who the person of the opposite sex is. I wouldn't mind in the slightest if Keith went swimwear shopping with our girlfriend Karen, but I wouldn't be too happy if it was with his ex-girlfriend. Most of my friends are male, but due to past history I make sure that I'm never alone with a certain male friend because I know it makes Keith uncomfortable. I'm just being considerate of his feelings. So to answer your question above, Sheepish, since Spouse A2 has tried to be a good sport but is starting to get annoyed, IMO Spouse A1 needs to tell POS1 to knock it off.

I agree with Tren that a lot depends on intent. I also agree with EM that we can't be everything to our partners and expecting that in a relationship can lead to disappointment.

-- Anonymous, April 07, 2003

Jay, you say " First priority must be to make your partner happy."

I don't mean to sound like a curmudgeon here but I don't think its my responsibility to make anyone happy. Maybe I'm kinda prickly about this subject but that gives way too much power to another person over me IMO.

Some people are fickle. One day this makes them happy. The next its something almost opposite. I can think of countless examples of why that approach hasn't worked for me.

These days I'm thinking all I can do is love my SO, spouse or what have you. Be true to myself, expect them to be true to their self and for each of us to honor our respective commitment to each other.

Do the things we enjoy doing together. Do the things we enjoy for ourselves and "allow" them to do the same and, if the love is real, we'll revel in their enjoyment even if we don't share the same enthusiasm for that particular activity and hope they'll do the same for us.

If I'm doing something thats entirely harmless but causes my spouse to be insecure I wanna work thru it without becoming a slave to her insecurities and I would hope she would do the same. Thats how we grow and mature.

-- Anonymous, April 08, 2003