How many Lord of the Rings fans do we have here? I went to see the Two Towers the other night. It was really good and well done, but man.....'twas a long time to sit thru battle scenes! it was worth it though, and obviously neccesary. Seems to me they really changed the story quite a bit this time though. Now I have to get the book back out and re-read some stuff. I don't remember Farimir taking Frodo and Sam to Minas Tirith for one thing; I remember them being set on their way after a long council regarding the quest etc. The similarity between this world and ours seems more and more obvious to me over the years, too. I kept picturing the Nazgul as terrorists of today. Life is certainly full of mirrors.

Idaho Gal thinklove@webtv.net

-- Anonymous, January 11, 2003

Answers

I thought it was fantastic! My heart was in my throat for most of the 3 hours. The mythic greatness and the archytypes really move me (or was it Legolas again? hmmm!). When those bazillion Uruk-hais and Orcs (?) starting stomping their lances, I felt a cold chill run down my back. Guess it was a physical experience, all told! Sound- surround helps...

I haven't read LOR for 30 years. I don't really want to until I see the last film. But I'm SO up for reading other Tolkien (sp?) scholarship. He was quite a linguist, I understand. Anyone have any suggestions for other reading material?

-- Anonymous, January 11, 2003

If you haven't seen The Two Towers and intend to do so, there will probably be spoilers in my post -- BEWARE!

Sheepish, there is so much to say about Tolkien, I won't even try here. I recommend this website for discussions of all things Tolkien -- books and movies: www.council-of-elrond.com/forums

I tried reading The Silmarillion but found it tough going. JRRT's son, Christopher, has released many "Lost Tales" and a whole series of books on the "history" of Middle-Earth. I haven't read any of them however, so I don't know what to recommend.

IG, no, in the book, Frodo and Sam were NOT taken to Minas Tirith, but they weren't in the movie either. That was Osgiliath, which is on the River Anduin. Minas Tirith is further away to the West. However, in the book, they weren't taken to Osgiliath either -- Faramir sends them off from Henneth Annun (where the waterfall is). This has been quite a sticking point with some people (not because it's a departure from the book but because they see it as a plot hole). There has been great mirth that it is in Osgiliath that Sam says "By rights, we shouldn't even be here . . ." because they aren't SUPPOSED to be there. Oh well!

-- Anonymous, January 11, 2003

The director, Peter Jackson, has said that The Two Towers is the least faithful to the books, and that Return of the King will be truer to what was written. This movie also ends before the book does -- in the book, Frodo and Sam are much further along and have already encountered the "she" to which Gollum refers, and Aragorn, Gandalf, Theoden, et al. have gone to Isengard post Ent attack and been reunited with Merry and Pippin. All that apparently has been shoved into The Return of the King. I hope they have enough time for everything! I wouldn't be surprised if RotK is even longer than the first two! I do know that they've left out a huge chunk from RotK, so perhaps there will be enough time.

If you haven't seen the special extended edition of Fellowship, I highly recommend you rent it (or buy it) -- they added back 30 minutes of film, mostly character development. Of course, I'd rather I had been able to see it on the BIG SCREEN.

Wasn't Gollum fantastic?! That was the best, most believable CGI character I've seen. Overall, I did not like TTT nearly as much as Fellowship, perhaps because of those departures from the story. But there was much I loved about it. I expect to cry through most of Return of the King . . . .

-- Anonymous, January 11, 2003

Let's see if it will let me post this time. (The site has been keeping me from posting, and out of the site for days)

I sat through TT with a BIG smile on my face, despite the idiots in the theatre who were a constant annoyance. Made me want to take out my sword and smite them one. But maybe that was the influence of all the other swordplay going on on screen.

Personally, I loved the battle scenes -- great choreographing, great CGI blending....but, I'm a Special Effects buff. I thought that the work they did on Gollum really stretched the present envelope, which was really exciting. There were other effects that I thought were done a little too cheaply -- or maybe what they had planned for that part just didn't work out and they had to get the effects guys to whomp something up in a hurry. (I'm referring to the gas jets in the marshes)

-- Anonymous, January 11, 2003

My son and I are aguring about this one thing. When Gandalph comes with the army, they are able to turn back the Orcs. I felt because they were made without feeling pain and with the sole purpose of killing, they should not have been turned back but should have kept fighting until the last one was standing.

My son said that when this book was first brought forward as a movie prospect, they said it would have to be two movies. The producers said it would have to be cut down into one unless they could find a director who felt differently. They said it wasn't two movies, it had to be three at least. I'm so glad that they just filmed they straight through because they didn't age as they would have if they stopped inbetween.

I liked the behind the scenes stuff. Especially the Hobbits feet. "Sam" pointed out how many times they had the feet applied and the feet weren't even shot. I didn't realise until then that Sam was the main actor in Encino Man. (Even though my son told me)

-- Anonymous, January 12, 2003

Julie I agree that some of the effects looked pretty cheapo. My gripe is with the Ents, I thought they looked like Disney rejects.

In the scene where it shows all the characters getting armed for the battle at Helm's Deep it shows Aragorn putting on a regular chain mail shirt. For a guy who's been dating an Elvish chick for as long as he has, you'd think he'd have a mithril shirt by now! Come on now Arwen, if you want your sweetie to come back from the war forget about giving him the girly necklace and give him some real armor! :)

I haven't read the books since high school, so after we came out of the theater I was pestering Keith with questions about what happens next. I'm not going to re-read the books until after the movies so that way I won't get mad.

I'm also excited because I finally figured out how to tell Merry and Pippin apart! I spent the entire first movie confused over which one was which. If any of the rest of you share that confusion, here's how I deep them straight now....Pippin has the Pointy nose and Merry has the Mashed-in nose!

-- Anonymous, January 13, 2003

Yeah, come to think of it, I did think the Ents were too manufactured. But then, I sorta got used to Gollum being that way, so it wasn't as bad as it could have been...

-- Anonymous, January 13, 2003

I"m a fan; haven't seen the Two Towers yet, though. Too busy politicking the government against the USA PATRIOT Act!

Going to a City Council meeting day after tomorrow to attempt to get the ball rolling on a Resolution against the destruction of the Bill of Rights. 23 other communities nationwide have already passed similar resolutions, mostly unanimously, and thirty or forty more are in the works.

If you are interested in doing this in Y0UR community, go to the site of the Bill of Rights Defense Committee at http://www.bordc.org/OtherLocalEfforts.htm

Back to the Lord of the Rings: I have heard that George Bush reminds some folks of the Dark Lord, or something like that. Straight out of Mordor he is, ain't he?

I just read the Fellowship of the Rings a couple of months ago, and the Two Towers last week, just to refresh my memory, since it's been almost thirty years since I first read them.

I can't wait to see the Two Towers, and see how they did with it! I'm not reading all you guys' posts, as I don't want to know too much about the movie as yet.

JOJ

-- Anonymous, January 14, 2003

Joy, since you're our resident Tolkien expert you've probably already seen this, but I thought I'd pass it along for the rest of the fans. :)

LINK

-- Anonymous, January 14, 2003

Sherri,

.....groan.....

-- Anonymous, January 14, 2003

Well some of us are fans, and some of us are Tolkien scholars! Joy, I knew as soon as i submitted that entry that it was not Minas Tirith, but it was easier to come to mind (and to spell!) :). I really loved the whole of TT. I thought Gollum was breathtaking. It was hard to take my eyes off him. Unbelieveable. and the ents were wonderful. In a magnificent movie wuch as this, how can you fault any of it? I am so surprised to hear such criticism. The overall effect was truly spellbinding, in my opinion, and I am thrilled to be able to look forward to buying the video or DVD and seeing it over and over, until the Return of the King comes out. It's been so many years since my introduction to Tolkien, about 35 yrs. I was so amazed to see that all of the charactors looked just like I pictured them, and the names of charactors and places pronounced just like I heard them in my own mind. What an incredible treat....the TT was just so intense...and I felt the chill too, when all the battle lances were thumping on the ground....thrilling and chilling. What a treat. All of it. :) Joy, you have got me digging out my old maps and looking for a wall to post them on!

Idaho Gal....thinklove@webtv.net

-- Anonymous, January 15, 2003

Sheepish- I know what you mean about Legolas (Orlando Bloom). Something about that guy made me go back and see the first movie a second time. The hubby probably wouldn't have gone with me if he knew I was only going back to ogle Legolas! I have a BIG poster of him on the wall by my desk at work. Funny I don't even like blondes...

-- Anonymous, January 17, 2003

Well, Orlando is not a blond himself. He has very dark hair and very dark eyes. That's why he has those really nice dark eyebrows with that blond (wig) hair. He was wearing contacts in the movie, plus I think they did some enhancement of his eye color when there are close- ups. Personally, I went back to see the scruffy ranger . . . :-D

-- Anonymous, January 18, 2003

Me to...... Strider......:) although young Legolas was very impressive...for a "blonde". Anyone that can do what he did with a bow would get my attention! That boy is hot. Idaho Gal thinkove@webtv.net

-- Anonymous, January 18, 2003

Idaho Gal...don't it just make you wish you were about 30 yrs. younger :-)?! Does me.....sometimes!!

-- Anonymous, January 18, 2003

"Legolas" is a total hottie, but Orland Bloom in real life doesn't interest me (and anyway, he's probably gay). But as an Elven blonde with a bow in his hands, I just melt...btw, Mr. S. is blonde and Scandinavian (just about 30 years older!! But then, so am I!)

I rented the VHS Fellowship movie this weekend...gonna watch it again (and again) before hitting the big screen TT again. Then MAYBE I'll get out the trilogy again and read up to the Return part...

-- Anonymous, January 18, 2003

I just love it when Legolas reaches back and pulls out his two swords and spins them around. Only got to see him do it once in TT. :-(

Call me a pervy hobbit fancier if you want, but I like Pippin. I think it's mainly the accent.

-- Anonymous, January 19, 2003

"pervy hobbit fancier" -- Now WHERE have you been hanging out? As far as I know, that term started on the discussion boards! ;-) Or was it in Cassie Claire's Secret Diaries? Those are hilarious! I think Billy Boyd is a cutie, but Geez! they made Pippin nearly brainless. He wasn't quite so stupid in the books .. . I guess they're trying to make a strong contrast to show how much he "grows up". Pippin is supposed to be the youngest of the Hobbits (and Frodo the eldest -- the actors are just reversed, Elijah is the youngest and Billy the eldest. There, a useless LotR movie trivia factoid!

I don't think Orlando is gay -- he announced his engagement (yes, to a female!) awhile back. Though I have no idea if that is still on, as I am not one of his screaming fan girls. He's currently working on a film with Johnny Depp, based on the Disneyland/DisneyWorld ride, "Pirates of the Caribbean". A movie based on an amusement park ride? Very bizarre! I hope they come up with a good plot, not a barely-there, just-an-excuse-for-action plot.

As I said, I'm a fan of the scruffy ranger (and when he's all washed and combed too!), but since there are so many drooling over Legsie, did you know that Orlando is not really shooting arrows? He's just pulling the bow string and releasing -- the arrows were added with CGI, because it was too dangerous for arrows to be shot on set. Though Orlando is supposed to be quite good, and his knife fighting is even better. (Those are two long knives that he carries) He is so fast they had to get him to slow down so that the film could capture what he was doing.

What other useless tidbits would you like to know? :-D

-- Anonymous, January 19, 2003

Yeah, I like that Ranger, too, though. He just reminds me of someone I used to have a relationship with (back in the olden days of my youth)...especially those eyes! I liked Pippin too. He reminded me of an old high school beau. (sheesh whatever was THAT like? Having beaux? Been married a lOOONNNGGGGGG time!).

Did anyone notice in FotR that the lead Uruk-hai guy looks like Gene Simmons in Kiss (with the makeup, even...the white hand print and the hair!)?

Now I'm ready to see Two Towers again. I think. Tell me more about the ponies! Thanks!

-- Anonymous, January 20, 2003

Now I have GOT to book the sitter and drag (I'm facetious..no need to drag) Hubby to the movies. He is a big Tolkien fan though not of the caliber of the scholars here. I can barely wade through the books. He's just so wordy!! Don't yell at me! I was an English major with a short attention span!!! I did sooo L-O-V-E love! the first movie though. The did a wee spoof on a kids programming thing in Ontario regarding eating more fruits and vegetables where Gandalf counsels Frodo on what to take on his journey and the NO ketchup was not a serving of fruits and vegetables. Very cute actually.

-- Anonymous, January 21, 2003

"Gandalf counsels Frodo on what to take on his journey" -- hee hee, I remember a long discussion as to WHAT that loaf thing was (Frodo wraps it up in a napkin to take with him). Did anyone notice in FotR that the list of foods that Bilbo is offering Gandalf is the same list of foods that the dwarves demanded from Bilbo in The Hobbit (book)? :-D

Sheepish, the ponies? There was Bill the Pony, who almost didn't make it into the movie because somebody in the studio didn't think he was important. Peter Jackson (PJ) decided to put him in anyway. He was played by two people in a pony suit for the scenes in the snow on Caradhras (where the avalanche buries them). I thought it bizarre that Aragorn and Sam unload Bill and send him off at the gates of Moria, BEFORE they've managed to get them open! Duh! I know it was to get Bill out of the way before the Watcher in the Water attacked, but still . . . DUH! In the book, the Hobbits had ponies in the early part of the journey, but they lost them in Bree. They bolted from the stables with the arrival of the Nazgul, and the Hobbits had to go on foot.

The other horses . . . well, Shadowfax is an Andalusian. Actually, I think there was more than one to play him, and Arwen's horse, Asfaloth, was played by several different Andalusians. And, of course, Liv Tyler was NOT doing that riding. Viggo, however, did all of Aragorn's riding. He bought several horses used in the movie, including the bay warmblood that "rescues" him and takes him back to Rohan in TTT. The horses are still there because they keep doing "pickup" filming, and they're still needed for that, but he intends to ship them to the States when it's all done.

-- Anonymous, January 21, 2003

continued . . . .

The cast was back for pickup filming last summer, and I suppose will again this summer. Unfortunately for them, in NZ it's winter then!

Sorry if this is a repeat, but if you have not seen the EXTENDED version of Fellowship, do rent it. They added 30 minutes of extra footage, mostly character development, and the gift-giving scene is back in. That was one of the most sorely missed parts. On the other hand, darn few cared that Tom Bombadil was left out (including ME).

Forgot to mention on Bill the Pony, they had two animals, one to be pony sized next to the humans and one to be large next to the hobbits.

-- Anonymous, January 21, 2003

Joy! Thanks!

Yeah, I didn't rent the extended version (although I WANTED to). Actually, the first day it came out on DVD, I bought it for my brother for his birthday. He has DVD and a big-ass screen and all the audio stuff. Do you even think I could get him to watch it???? I invited Mr. S. and I over to Bro's house MANY times since last August to watch it, but my dear Bro can't have the teevee idle for the 3.5 hours it would take to watch a movie that he's not very interested in (might miss wrestling or football!). I love my brother, but got p.o.'d waiting to watch it, so I rented the VHS version instead.

I intend to buy the whole collection (plus DVD and home theater or whatever it takes!) after the last movie. (well, if I win the lottery). In the meantime, I'm really appreciating your input!

I remembered the ponies from The Hobbit book (I think). Seeing Bill (who didn't look like a pony at all to me) made me wonder what happened to them.

Cool about Viggo riding the horses. The lead changes and stuff on Arwen's horse (to the river fleeing from the Nazgul) made me think somebody with expert equestrian skills must have been riding) and not Liv Tyler. But what do I know.

I'm dying for more trivia! Do Tell!!!

-- Anonymous, January 21, 2003

A saw a special on TV about the making of the TT. What really impressed me was that a few years ago Orlando Bloom fell out of a window and broke his back. The doctors told him if he was lucky he might be able to walk again. Boy he sure did prove them wrong! Joy, the scene where Legolas flips under the neck of the horse and up into the saddle in front of Gimli, that HAD to have been CGI, right? I can't believe a human could actually do that, it didn't even look like his hand was touching the harness.

Viggo also talked about how much work he put in with his horses. He would even go riding on his free days. He said that because so many of the fight scenes required him to ride without using the reins he really had to build a bond of trust with the horse so he could know how it would react.

-- Anonymous, January 22, 2003

Sorry, been very busy today . . .

Yes, Sherri, that was definitely CGI on Legolas' mounting flip. I didn't like it -- it looked wrong. They could have made it look more believable. But I think I read that that was the only "take" they had, so had to use it.

Sheepish, the DVD that came out in August was "just" the theatrical release. The extended version came out in November. The movie itself is on two disks, and then there are two further disks all about the making of the movie. There are also commentary tracks -- you can watch the movie, but the sound is muted and a group will be commenting. They have tracks with comments by the cast, by the writers/directors, by the production people, etc.

According to Fran Walsh (Peter's wife, co-writer, assistant director, etc.), everyone in the movie was wearing a wig, except one little boy -- he was one of the big-eyed hobbit children listening to Bilbo tell his story about the trolls. He just happens to be Peter and Fran's son, Billy (their daughter, Katie, is also there, but has straight hair, so she was wearing a wig).

The kids also had cameos as some of the Rohan children. Peter has cameos in all the films out so far. In FotR, he is in Bree, eating a carrot as the hobbits go through the rainy streets -- he belches at them. In TTT, he has two cameos -- first he is one of the Dunlanders (wild men) that Saruman is inciting to war, later he is a (chubby) Rohirrim in mail who chucks a spear at the Uruk-hai. So he fights on both sides of the battle at Helm's Deep. :-)

Arwen/Liv was originally intended to come to Helm's Deep with the other elves and fight there. Liv turned out to be very poor at the sword play (hid behind Viggo all the time), so they rewrote it and left her out. Many were quite relieved -- thought she would be stealing Eowyn's thunder as the only woman who fights.

-- Anonymous, January 23, 2003

more . . . .

Viggo was NOT first choice to play Aragorn. They cast Stuart Townsend (he was in Queen of the Damned), but a couple of days into filming, they let Townsend go. Don't know exactly what happened -- but the official story was that they decided he was just too young for the part (he was about 27). Other reports say he just wasn't cutting it (sorry, pun) in the fight scenes. Desperately hoping he would accept, the part was offered to Viggo (age 41 at that time) -- giving him a half day to decide to commit to a year-and-a-half of filming and having to get on a plane the next day. He had never read the books, but his young son had and convinced him that he should do the role. Viggo ran out and bought all the books and read them straight through on the flight to New Zealand. When he got there, he had a couple of days for wardrobe and training in sword play -- everyone else had been there six week, training -- and they started filming with him. His first scene was the fight with the ring wraiths at Weathertop/Amon Sul. The trainer for the sword fighting, Bob Anderson, said Viggo was the best he ever worked with.

All the members of the Fellowship went out and got tattoos to commemorate their fellowship -- the number nine (Nine Companions) in Elvish. Only a few of them have revealed where their tats are located. Apparently they didn't pick the same spot. John Rhys- Davies (Gimli) claims he sent his stunt double to get the tat. :-D

All cast members and most of the crew carried around copies of the books during the filming -- there were copies everywhere.

-- Anonymous, January 23, 2003

Urgh, this 'ouch' thing is bugging me! More . . . . .

Orlando worked very hard on the grace and physicality of Legolas, and yes, it is very amazing that he can move like that after having broken his back (he fell off a roof!). He was straight out of acting school when he got this role -- originally read for Faramir, but was offered Legsie. He fell from his horse and broke some ribs. Viggo broke his toes (kicking that helmet in TTT -- the scream and drop to the knees were a result), broke off a tooth, and almost drowned in the river (after the warg battle). Sean Astin's foot was impaled by a hunk of glass when he was wading out to the boat for the scene at the end of FotR. Amazingly, no one was killed or even seriously hurt.

Sean Connery was offered the role of Gandalf and turned it down.

And on an entirely different movie, I just heard tonight that before Harrison Ford was cast as Han Solo in Star Wars, the actor cast in the role was . . . . . BURT REYNOLDS! Ack! Glad he left the role!

-- Anonymous, January 23, 2003

Wow. Joy you should write a contemporary trivia column! Thanks. And yeah, you are so right about the releases, etc. I forgot! I have friends that have the extended version, and they told me stuff like the swords are actual and forged in Toledo, Spain, etc.

What an amazing cast....

I think I'd much rather discuss this than the current sad state of real world affairs...Idaho Gal, thanks for starting this.

Any more news? (I need a twelve step program for LotR stuff!)

-- Anonymous, January 23, 2003

Jeez Joy....Sheepish is right! You really should do a column....or just keep posting here and this can be your column I guess! I am SO glad they did not cast Sean Connery as Gandalf, that would have ruined it for me! I used to like him okay, but for some reason I got sick and tired of his whole personna. I think I watched too many Saturday Night Live spoofs of him. I must be one of the few that was bummed about Tom Bombadil and Goldberry being left out of the FotR. Also, I kinda wished they would have explained the elven cloaks and the leaf clasps that the travelers were given in Lothlorien ( that was where they got them, wasn't it?). I thought that was pretty important. I guess with them leaving stuff out it just ensures that we will all still read and re-read the books as well as watch the video. I am glad I started this thread too! I have learned more than I ever knew there was to know about this epic and it's making. I only wish I could remember it all! Joy, you are amazing. ........Peace out. Idaho Gal

-- Anonymous, January 24, 2003

IG, if you watch the extended version of FotR (can be rented), you will see the gift-giving scene, including more about the cloaks and brooches. Celeborn (Galadriel's husband), who has one line and comes off as a wooden dork in the theatrical release, has more lines and screen time. It changes his character's impression entirely. The extended version is worth it just for that scene. Plus there are lots of others -- including more of Haldir, and a scene on the Elven flets. And more Boromir and more Aragorn -- good reasons right there!

Re: Sean Connery. Well, some people just don't like him. But I think the problem with him being cast is twofold -- [1] as far as I can tell, he can only "do" his natural accent, whereas Ian McKellan was "doing" Tolkein himself, his accent that is. (another cool detail). [2] Sean Connery is too big a name. Until recently McKellan mostly known for his stage work. If Connery had been playing the role, that would be all I would be seeing -- Sean Connery, not Gandalf.

I would have favored Christopher Lee for Gandalf. He was excellent, of course, as Saruman. He does villains very well. However, I would have loved to see him as the (sometimes) kindly Gandalf, well within his acting range as well. Still, I am familiar enough with Mr. Lee that it sometimes distracted me from his character. Also, since he has nearly 20 years on Sir Ian, perhaps it was better that the younger actor had the more strenuous role. I hope that Mr. Lee will be made SIR Christopher Lee -- he deserves it. He is a Tolkien geek, er, authority, having read the books yearly since they were published in the early 1950's. 'Scuse me, I have to have a mini-swoon for Mr. Lee . . . ;-)

-- Anonymous, January 24, 2003

Though I was aware of some of the actors previous to the movie, none of them are "big name" or "mega stars", which I think was a plus. Other than Christopher Lee, I was most familiar with Ian Holm (Bilbo), who absolutely disappeared into his character, IMO. He also did the voice of Frodo in the BBC audio production of LotR. I have the tapes of that out from the library but haven't started listening to it yet.

I'd seen Sean Bean before, but hadn't really paid attention. Prior to the movie, I disliked Boromir. Sean Bean's performance was amazing. I really cared when he was killed (didn't care when I read the book). Part of that was the death scene -- Sean and Viggo really nailed that one. And that part was almost written out. I guess after they went ahead and filmed it, there was no way they would leave that one out!

As for being "amazing", it's all just evidence of my obsession. Ah well, there are WORSE ones! :-D

-- Anonymous, January 24, 2003