My dear friends, [Eugene, Gail, Glenn, Jake, and others]

I would like to thank you for your time and patience while conversing with me here. I have enjoyed the debates, and trust that it hasn't been totally pain staking for any of you. With a debate, it enables both parties to look at what we believe and test it against another. It shows us what we truly believe, and whether or not we really believe what we say we believe. It is one thing to say you believe something and another to be able to defend it using truth and not just mere words. Although both sides believe that they hold the 100% truth, that is impossible or there wouldn't be two sides.

I believe God has given us [the Believer and the world] the Truth, 100% Truth. I believe all the Truth that God has given to us is contained in the Holy Bible. True, there are other writings and other teachings that can and may be found, but the Word of God, the scriptures, is the key which God has given us to open the door to learning and understanding Him. All teaching should come from the scriptures, as one grows in knowledge and grace seeking after the Lord and being lead by the Spirit of Truth.

When we are taught by a Pastor, Priest, teacher, or whoever, the foundation should be the scripture itself. The teaching should be a grouping together of multiple scriptures throughout the Bible explaining and giving us a Truth which it contains. The Spirit filled person should be giving us what is contain in scripture, and not an idea of what is there or should be there. We can not correct the Word of God, it must correct us! If the foundation is not the scripture, then it is man's own ideas. If we have the scripture as the foundation, then we can clearly "try the spirits" and know whether the person or ourselves are speaking the truth or not; because the scriptures and if the person is speaking truth, will not contradict one another.

So, why do we have so many bibles? I believe it is the Devil, corrupting the Word of God, as people did even while the scripture was being written. Honestly, all the bibles are copyrighted except the KJV. For a book to be copyrighted, there has to be a certain number of things different about it [someone told me 35% or so]. I'm not sure exactly how different something has to be, but they can not say exactly the same thing. So, by the definition of copyright laws, how can we say that all the bibles say the same thing or all contain the truth? Some truth, maybe. All truth, impossible!

I was asked, "Where did the bible ultimately come from?" I do not know exactly what is being asked, but I will give you this. The bible was given to "holy men" by the "Holy Spirit" - not a single Church or a single man. Inspired, means that it was the Holy Spirit of God which gave the holy men the words to "pen to paper", and not the ideas or words of men that wrote the scriptures. I read a book one time that claimed that when the scribes were coping the scriptures this is what they would do:

Write every letter in a line, and count the letters to make sure they matched.

When they got to "Jehovah", they would wash themselves, get a new pen, write "Jehovah", break the pen, wash themselves, then finsih the line with a new pen.

At the end of the page, they would recount everything, to make sure it was exact. If not, they threw it away.

A book I have contains the history of the KJV, which contains documents from Peshitta manuscripts [350 manuscripts, still around today], with some dating back to the second century AD. Tertullian, in AD 208 said, "Come now, run over the apostolic churches, in which the very thrones of the apostles are still pre-eminent in their places, in which their own authentic writings are read, uttering the voice and representing the face of each of them severally." Anabaptists and Protestant believers go at least as for back as the Catholics, so how can it be said that the Catholics are from the apostles and all others are heretics?

The teachings of Jesus Christ himself went along with scripture, and we are told to "seek", "search", and "study" them. Why wouldn't he go a long with scripture and hold them equal with God - they are the Words of God, are they not!? God said that heaven and earth shall pass away, but his word will not. I believe God puts a great deal of emphasis on the scripture.

And actually, our debate of scripture has been performed over years and years of history. Here is one example:

John Eck, "I see that you are following the damned and pestiferous errors of John Wycliffe, who said, 'It is not necessary for salvation to believe that the Roman Church is above all others.' And you are espousing the pestilent errors of John Hus, who claimed that Peter neither was nor is the head of the Holy Catholic Church."

Martin Luther, "No believing Christian can be coerced beyond holy writ. By divine law we are forbidden to believe anything which is not established by divine Scripture or manifest revelation. As for the article of Hus that 'it is not necessary for salvation to believe the Roman Church superior to all others' I do not care whether this comes form Wycliffe or from Hus. I know that innumerable Greeks have been saved though they never heard this article. It is not in the power of the Roman pontiff or of the Inquisition to construct new articles of faith. The true Christian pilgrimage is not to Rome, but to the prophets, the Psalms, and the Gospels."

Have you ever read anything written by Luther, and not just things written about Luther? I probably do not agree 100% with Luther, but he sure knew some things concerning the scriptures.

See, no man is perfect. It takes 3 basic things for a person to get anything out of the scriptures.

1. The person must be born again, a Believer, a child of God, washed in the blood of the Lamb.

2. The person must be lead by the Spirit of Truth when discerning the scriptures.

3. The person must not be build up in pride and trusting in one's self or in man, or they will qunich the Holy Spirit and not get the truth fom the scriptures.

As I close, I would like to leave you with this:

My desire is that everyone of you [and everyone around the world] would come to a saving knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ!

I would ask that you do one thing - it will be between you and God, and I nor anyone else will ever know, unless you choose to tell.

One day, just sit down with your bible [any version should be okay for this] alone in a quiet place. Pray to God, with a honest heart [not the Our Father or Rosary, but as if you were talking with God face to face] and tell him you desire to know the truth regardless of what you have been taught, regardless of what you know, and regardless of what you have ever heard [including from me]. Ask him to show you exactly what you need to know and where you need to put your trust. Randomly flip through the scripture [honestly] and start reading where your eyes fall on the first page you stop at.

And lastly, think upon this thought:

If you died today, and stood before God in all his glory. Would he let you into heaven? Why? What would God see as acceptible in you or your life that justifys a sinner [for we all sin] to enter a perfect, sinless Heaven?

I'm not saying that any of you aren't saved or that you aren't going to Heaven, only you and God know if you have trusted in Him alone for salvation. I just want to make sure if you haven't, that I have told you that you can know.

We can know 100% that we will spend eternity in Heaven with Christ! The blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all unrighteousness.

Praise God. Amen and Amen!

I pray that God will lead us all into all Truth!!!

God Bless!

If anyone has a honest question that they would like to ask or just want my opinion, please no debates [if I would like a debate, I will meet back here :)], I can be contacted at tlw97@cox.net), November 06, 2002

Answers

Sorry about the bottom getting cut off.

You can also contact me at www.servantssalute.com.

I just don't have the spare time between work, studies, duties, etc... as I have done here lately. I will continue my search in the Truth and I pray you all will do the same. I really appreciate your time, Thanks and God Bless!

-- Tim (tlw97@cox.net), November 06, 2002.

We all appreciate your attention in our forum, Tim.
Naturally, you won't follow the teachings of the holy apostles if the Catholic Church is attached in any way to these.

It's because once you've made a false interpretation of holy Scripture, a human blunder; --It burns your bridges behind you, and makes it very hard to come back again to the pillar of the truth, Christ's Church. In order to return to the truth, you necessarily have to back down from a belief you cherished. Not good for your ego.

We pray Jesus Christ brings you His grace; and carries you right back over the bridges you burned following false doctrines of men. With God, nothing's impossible. Ciao !

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), November 06, 2002.

Tim,

Thank you very much for your effort and time to discuss doctrine with us (me especially). I hope that our discussion has not been in vain, and that at least now you have the "insiders" view on what we really believe. I would hope and pray that you do as I will do, and print out or at least save the discussion that we've had. It is always very helpful to wait for a "cool down" period and reread what we've said. It brings to the surface things that we might have missed upon further inspection. God bless you in your quest.

In Christ.

P.S. Please read in your freetime the response I made to your second to last post.

-- Jake Huether (jake_huether@yahoo.com), November 06, 2002.

From someone who loves the Bible so much that I have in several languages, including Hebrew and Greek, Protestant(KJV, New Living, Revised SV,..), Jehova's Witness,Yahwist, Orthodox Catholic, Roman Catholic ( Jerusalem, Latinoamericana, Colunga, NIB, Vulgate (Latin) ...) , and many more. I even have copies of all those books not included in the Bible like the Gospel of James, Protoevangelion of James, ... and 30 more, plus the Didache, writings of Ignatius, Clement, and others in original Greek and in translation which mention the progression of the Church as it went from a Jewish sect to being a Gentile Church to many Churches I can say the following:

a) Some The books of the Old testament are abbreviations of other books. Remember the book of the Wars of Yahweh, The Book O Jashar, The book of the Kings of Judah,... Even Exodus and Numbers are abbreviations. Judges is an abbreviation. That is why the ages in Judges are all wrong. Between the time of the Exodus around 1247 BC(counting using Jubilee years) to around 1012 the beginning of the First Temple (3 years after david's death is only about 225 years. If you add ages accoording to the Bible that is over 500 years. Even the time the Hebrews stayed in Egypt was around 225 years or less, not 400. We have to watch out for dates. Sarah had to be around 40 when she had Isaac not 90. Have you ever seen a 90 year old woman having babies? From Abraham's Grandfather and back we don't know. First 14 chapters of genesis are speculation. Genesis was written by Joseph, no Moses. Levicus by Aaron and his sons. When David took Jerusalem the books of the Torah were ammended to Say people should worship in only one place ( That is Jerusalem) to centralize the faith. Watch out for rewritings.

If God hasn't changed, then remember that after Jesus ascended to heaven people like Peter, James, Philip, John, and others like Paul, Phillip's daughters, Agabus, or Ananias who were not disciples of Jesus continued to receive revelations from God either through angels or Jesus Christ.

The Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Catholics still believe in continous revelation. The Jews think revelation stopped with Zechariah and Haggai around 500 BC. Protestants in the 1st century AD. Muslims that revelation stopped after Muhammad's death in 632 AD.

If God appeared to Abraham a possible Sin worshipper in Ur, now Iraq, who didn't know Jesus, and the same thing happened to Jacob, Moses, Samuel, Isaiah, and many others like him, what makes you think he has stopped calling infidels even today. many of these infidels follow better lives than we do. Even Mahatma Gandhi, a Hindu, followed Christian ideas and practices when he tried to make India an independant country.

Don't close your mind to scripture only. May the Grace and peace of Yahweh our God and his Son Jesus Christ be with you always to guard you and protect you.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), November 06, 2002.

God Bless you, Tim. You are a fine fellow, and a dear brother in the Lord!

On a personal note, Tim, I want you to know that I would not have converted to the Catholic Church if it were not for the fact that I am closer, oh so much closer to Him now. My relationship with Him is sweeter, oh so much sweeter! Can't turn back! I find His presence with me in a way I had not known before. Afterall, "He places His people in the body as He sees fit!"

There is one thing we can all agree on at this forum, the most important thing of ALL . . . . Jesus Christ is Lord! AMEN! May we all come to know Him better and better and better!

Love,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), November 06, 2002.

Tim, I want to put your mind at ease a little bit. I am not trying to offend you, so please don't be. I suspect that YOU suspect that folks on this site do not know the Lord -- how could they since they are "CATHOLIC"? I say this because of your recommended 'formula for salvation' mentioned above and because I used to be a Protestant (so I know the lingo).

The Biblical prescription for salvation is "Repent and be baptized. Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and ye shall be saved!" -- that IS being BORN AGAIN! Now, of course, I can't judge the hearts of the men and women that are regulars on this forum, but I would wager that most have been baptized, and they most certainly do believe that Jesus Christ is their savior and Lord! And they most certainly do love Him with their whole hearts. And they most certainly do commune with Him on a regular basis.

Now, I know there are Catholics that don't know Him, just as there are Methodists, Baptists, Presbyterians, and folks in every denomination and non-denomination, who don't REALLY know Him, but please don't assume because someone is Catholic that they don't know Him! I know your recommendation above was from a sincere heart, and I do appreciate that. But I have to tell you that I am VERY grieved in my heart, because you have spent a lot of time with folks on this panel, we've borne our hearts to you, and yet it seems that you really don't consider us your "true brethren," why else would you recommend the formula you outlined above?

As to Martin Luther, you can believe whatever you want to about him, Tim, he's your man! But if Catholics are to be impeached as Christians because of their beliefs regarding Mary, purgatory, veneration of Saints, salvation, etc., then we must also IMPEACH Martin Luther on that basis, St. Augustine, St. Jerome, St. Ignatius, Thomas e. Kempis, Thomas Aquinas, St. Clement, and the list could literally go on and on and on.

I could provide you with quotes from MANY MANY church fathers who denounced sola scriptura as heretical, from the very beginning of the church! Adherents of sola scriptura were deemed heretics -- HERETICS -- by men such as the ones listed above -- men whom Protestants revere!

The evidence for Catholocism being THE descendant of the apostles with Christ as the chief cornerstone is STAGGERING! It is an age old church, a supernatural marvel, breathed into existence by our very Lord and Savior. She has been bludgeoned, but not beaten. She has been slandered. She has fell off course, and yet rectified. She has stumbled, but not fallen. Her gates are full of sinners and saints, the rich, the poor, black, white, yellow. She has weathered storm after storm after storm, but like a house built on a sure foundation . . . She still stands! The providential hand of God is SURELY upon her. She is terrifying! She is captivating! She is romantic! She is stern! She is a gentle mother, and a chastizing Father. She is breathtaking! She IS divine!

Good luck to you on your journey!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), November 06, 2002.

Please let me add something...

I do not consider any of the people here [especially the ones I have talked with] to be unsaved or on their way to Hell.

Although I do not agree with the Catholic doctrine, I do believe that the people here [at least the ones I have spoken with] do LOVE GOD and try their best to SERVE HIM! PRAISE GOD FOR FAITHFUL SERVANTS!

When we all get to Heaven, we will all be perfect, and maybe we can sit around and laugh about our differences here on earth... :)

The salvation message that I wrote above in my farewell note was for the unsaved and for the people that may be reading this and searching for God. It was not meant to say that every Catholic or everyone here is not saved or a child of the King. That is a personal thing between each person and God.

God Bless you all, and may God continue to give you grace and mercy, for this world is only getting worse.

Till He comes to take us home, Search the Lord with all your heart!!! And may God bless your walk with Him!

-- Tim (tlw97@cox.net), November 06, 2002.

Dear Tim, may I prolong this good-bye a little ... I was baptized as a 2-month old baby into the Catholic church 47 years ago. I was 'born again' at age 23, my whole life turned around as I began to KNOW JESUS CHRIST PERSONALLY, I read scripture daily for hours and hours, couldn't get enough Christian fellowship, and told EVERYONE I knew {and those I didn't know; waiting in line at the bank,etc.} about Jesus, so in love with Him I was.

Today I am following Him just as close, haven't missed a heartbeat, and you know what has SEALED ME IN HIS LOVE and secured my walk with Him? The One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church. The more I get to know about this Church that Christ has left us.. the more AWED I am! We have everything we need in HER!!!! She is full of treasures, which are rooted in Him. I am convinced that as His coming draws closer, and the Holy Spirit draws His Bride together, the prayer of Jesus in John 17;21 is coming to fullfillment. Watch, and wait,Tim,as all those, what is it- 30,000 splintered protestant groups, will come to see the truth. And those who are ready will confess Him as Lord and fall into His arms and find themselves in the One Church He founded, the one holy Catholic Apostolic Church.

Maranatha! Come Lord Jesus!! God bless, Theresa

-- Theresa Huether (Rodntee4Jesus@aol.com), November 06, 2002.

Tim,

Just wanted to thank you for the conversations we have had over the past couple weeks. You have further strengthened my faith in Jesus and the Catholic Church. The more you questioned our beliefs, the more research I did which of course led me to rediscover the truths of our faith.

I really hope you now have a better understanding of what Catholics believe and why. Even if you disagree with them now, if you continue praying about them and perhaps reading the early Church fathers, you may come to realize they are inspired by the Holy Spirit.

God Bless you Tim and may He keep you in His care all of days of your life.

-- Glenn (glenn@nospam.com), November 07, 2002.

Tim, I respect your right to your opinions, but I must respond to what you said here:

"Pray to God, with a honest heart [not the Our Father or Rosary, but as if you were talking with God face to face]"

Tim, the Our Father comes directly from Scripture! It was taught to us by Jesus Christ Himself, when the Apostles asked Him to teach them how to pray! And 90% of the Rosary is based on Scripture as well! I can understand why, as a Protestant, you are leery of the Rosary anyway, but to tell us that praying the Our Father is somehow not "praying with an honest heart" kind of makes me wonder ...

-- Christine L. (chris_tinelehman@hotmail.com), November 07, 2002.

Sorry to say something seemingly negative, Christine,
The only reason why Tim won't say the Our Father is,

He would be following in Catholic tradition! Somebody asked (him or Oliver, don't recall) whether he searched scriptures this week for the love of God's Word, or to discover some way to dispute our Catholic faith with some damning quotation. I suggested the latter was morwe important to him. You can see that once again here, where he can't even allow common grounds with Catholics on the obvious sacred qualities of the Lord's Prayer. Yet, he departs declaring he's sympathetic to us as brothers and sisters. Ho ho !!!

One more thing, forgive me: Tim was about to get away with a bare falsehood; and no one was calling him on it. Here goes:

''Anabaptists and Protestant believers go at least as for back as the Catholics,'' (Nov. 6th). No, Tim: Protestant churches began in the early 16th century. Not before. Sorry! Godbye.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), November 07, 2002.

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-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), November 07, 2002.

Hey Eugene, I think Tim is referring to the heretical groups that have always been around, such as the Manicheans-Sp? (whom Tertullian joined); the Arians (who introduced the Arian heresy), etc. Not sure about the Anabaptists (I think the Anabaptists are the ancestors of the Mennonites?) But anyway, there have been scores of heretical groups all along the way! And I guess they could legitimately be called "Protestants".

But I'm glad you pointed that out. I meant to ask Tim who he is talking about there, and I forgot.

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), November 07, 2002.

Well, I have known some Anabaptists personally -- they're actually proud of their history, so I don't think they'd care for Tim's misrepresentation of it - even if he meant well, which I'm sure he did. :-)

-- Christine L. (chris_tinelehman@hotmail.com), November 07, 2002.

When Tim states boldly-- protestants ''have been around'' just as long as the Catholic Church, it's a grab for apostlicity.

It makes him satisfied that there was no break with the Church of the apostles and Christ. But the sad fact is, his OWN FAITH is a result of 16th century ''reformation'' theology, which is clearly opposed to the faith of the apostles and has no way of identifying with the original faith. It's pathetic to see this rationale stretched --with their fanatical appeals to scripture, when the Holy Bible was given to the ''reformers'' by the Catholic Church. Then the ''reformers'' corrupted their editions to dispute Catholic doctrine!

But let's assume heretical sects existed in ancient times. Even so; they had to break away from the true Church, which makes her the only one existing from the beginning. All of them are late-comers. --She is the Church whose councils shot down the heretical churches by authority of the holy apostles.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), November 07, 2002.

Eugene, Gail, Christine;

When Tim made that comment I actually pasted a Link on Anabaptists. I think the Catholic Encyclopedia had some good info on them.

In Christ.

-- Jake Huether (jake_huether@yahoo.com), November 07, 2002.

Okay, I see even in my leaving people desire to still debate me...

Let me explain my side of the two major points of the discussion.

1. [Christine] - "the Our Father and Rosary"

Please read my context, I was not saying for you to never say the Our Father or the Rosary. Read below:

"One day, just sit down with your bible [any version should be okay for this] alone in a quiet place. Pray to God, with a honest heart [not the Our Father or Rosary, but as if you were talking with God face to face] and tell him you desire to know the truth regardless of what you have been taught, regardless of what you know, and regardless of what you have ever heard [including from me]. Ask him to show you exactly what you need to know and where you need to put your trust. Randomly flip through the scripture [honestly] and start reading where your eyes fall on the first page you stop at."

I was just saying for this one time thing, to speak to God like he was face to face and randomly find a page in the bible. To ask God to show you a "specail" truth [what I like to call it, because it is done by randomly choosing a page of scripture and start reading], and see what God shows you. This has nothing to do with whether or not I believe in praying the Our Father or Rosary. I just believe that it would be more personally done that way. You don't even have to do it, I have done it before and thought it was very neat, and thought yall might enjoy it.

Sorry for the misunderstanding...

2. The Anabaptist...my mistake...All below is from books I have, if you believe they are wrong, so be it, it is not my fault...

145 AD - Itala Bible, translated from the Peshitta, a Syrian translation of the original Greek manuscripts, a Baptist text, not from the Jerome's Latin Vulgate.

The Peshitta claimed to have been using the same churches and same authentic writings as the apostles, says Tertullian in 208 AD.

Some of these documents go back to the 2nd century AD.

Somewhere in the mist of the Dark Ages (500-800 AD) and the Middle Ages (AD 800-1500) the "Poor Man's Bible" was produced.

Before the 1300s AD - The Anabaptist had produced serveral Bible translations into their languages.

I have been told that a priest gave them their names by writing a book or story because it means "re-baptizers".

1300s AD - the Lollards, street preachers

Before Wycliffe's day in the 1340's at Oxford, they already had bibles in Italian, French, and Spanish, besides Hebrew, Greek, and Latin.

If the Catholics did use these other bibles, then who did? Who was producing them? I don't really need an answer... :)

I really do not wish to debate these topics, but they are here for you to see. If you don't believe this, or find fault with it, that is your right.

And my dear Eugene, there is no reason to keep punching, I am out of the ring... :)

-- Tim (tlw97@cox.net), November 07, 2002.

Okay, I see even in my leaving people desire to still debate me...

Let me explain my side of the two major points of the discussion.

1. [Christine] - "the Our Father and Rosary"

Please read my context, I was not saying for you to never say the Our Father or the Rosary. Read below:

"One day, just sit down with your bible [any version should be okay for this] alone in a quiet place. Pray to God, with a honest heart [not the Our Father or Rosary, but as if you were talking with God face to face] and tell him you desire to know the truth regardless of what you have been taught, regardless of what you know, and regardless of what you have ever heard [including from me]. Ask him to show you exactly what you need to know and where you need to put your trust. Randomly flip through the scripture [honestly] and start reading where your eyes fall on the first page you stop at."

I was just saying for this one time thing, to speak to God like he was face to face and randomly find a page in the bible. To ask God to show you a "specail" truth [what I like to call it, because it is done by randomly choosing a page of scripture and start reading], and see what God shows you. This has nothing to do with whether or not I believe in praying the Our Father or Rosary. I just believe that it would be more personally done that way. You don't even have to do it, I have done it before and thought it was very neat, and thought yall might enjoy it.

Sorry for the misunderstanding...

2. The Anabaptist...my mistake...All below is from books I have, if you believe they are wrong, so be it, it is not my fault...

145 AD - Itala Bible, translated from the Peshitta, a Syrian translation of the original Greek manuscripts, a Baptist text, not from the Jerome's Latin Vulgate.

The Peshitta claimed to have been using the same churches and same authentic writings as the apostles, says Tertullian in 208 AD.

Some of these documents go back to the 2nd century AD.

Somewhere in the mist of the Dark Ages (500-800 AD) and the Middle Ages (AD 800-1500) the "Poor Man's Bible" was produced.

Before the 1300s AD - The Anabaptist had produced serveral Bible translations into their languages.

I have been told that a priest gave them their names by writing a book or story because it means "re-baptizers".

1300s AD - the Lollards, street preachers

Before Wycliffe's day in the 1340's at Oxford, they already had bibles in Italian, French, and Spanish, besides Hebrew, Greek, and Latin.

If the Catholics did use these other bibles, then who did? Who was producing them? I don't really need an answer... :)

I really do not wish to debate these topics, but they are here for you to see. If you don't believe this, or find fault with it, that is your right.

And my dear Eugene, there is no reason to keep punching, I am out of the ring... :)

God Bless!

-- Tim (tlw97@cox.net), November 07, 2002.

I guess what bothered me, Tim, is that you seem to be assuming that none of us have ever done this -- "ask God to show you a "specail" truth [what I like to call it, because it is done by randomly choosing a page of scripture and start reading], and see what God shows you" -- and that if we did, we would probably not be Catholics anymore.

Also, this method of praying -- asking God to enlighten you and then randomly opening the Bible -- is called "lectio divina" and has been routinely practiced by mystics and saints for hundreds of years -- all Catholics! :-)

-- Christine L. (christine_lehman@hotmail.com), November 07, 2002.

Oh--
''--dear Eugene, there is no reason to keep punching, I am out of the ring... :) /

Tim, no one punched you. You may say you're leaving the ring, but before disappearing you let slip some very false statements. I'm not being uncharitable, I call them mistaken, not lying statements. Someone should call you on this. Many others not so informed might think you were correct saying protestants were ever contemporaneous with Christ's Church from the beginning. Your claim is not true. If you wish to peacefully leave the ring, just keep to the truth.

You're being humored enough as you dissemble around various bible translations. No one will call you on that; it makes no difference. The Holy Bible's canon is not a work of any church, mission, heresy or club you can muster. The books of the Bible were certified as authentic and inspired by a council of Catholic bishops. Nobody else verified them, because nobody else had apostolic authority and the help of the Holy Spirit. You have your Bible with the Catholic Church's seal of authenticity, Tim. It wasn't dropped on King James or his heretical translators from the English heavens. /:-)

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), November 07, 2002.

Tim

"dear Eugene, there is no reason to keep punching. I'm out of the ring.." :)

Tim, what is up with that last post? You left you BIG farewell post. But you have posted 4 or 5 times since that post when you said you were leaving.

You are the one that keeps punching at Gene to say that. Don't say you going to leave and than leave 5 posts. And than say your out of the ring as an EXCUSE!

But we realy know why you go after Gene now. Because he cleaned your clock everytime you debated with him. You arn't capable of debating relegion with him, so now you cry you are out of the ring? ;pLOL!!!!

-- - (.@.....), November 07, 2002.

That's not really fair, Tim is getting pulled back because WE won't let him go either!

God Bless you, Tim, and may you convert many sinners to Christ!

Love,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), November 08, 2002.

Gail:
We haven't asked Tim to go. If he stays, he'll continue to ''convert many sinners to Christ''. Especially if his vain arguments fall apart. His truthful arguments haven't put off any of our members here. Certainly not yourself. I say let him remain, if he will. --God bless you either way, Tim!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), November 08, 2002.