For some unknown reason, the following thread “HAS GARY E. GILLEY DEBUNKED THE CHURCH GROWTH MYTH?” was cut off without my consent. Therefore, I offer this response to Chuck about modern-day apostles.

Chuck,

I don’t think there was any misunderstanding at all. Once again, by your own definition of what an apostle is, there are no contemporary apostles living in the church of Jesus Christ today, nor have there been any apostles since the death of John. To claim otherwise is to go against what is taught in NT Scripture. There have been many that claim that they are apostles or prophets of God, but they are false and apostate.

As I see it, the problem that you face is that you seem to have a need for a supreme authority figure in the church that can “set the house in order”. Secondly, you hold a very low view of Scripture. Wake up Chuck! The house was set in order nearly 2000 years ago and it is called the NEW TESTAMENT. The Holy Spirit inspired it, the first-century apostles and prophets wrote it, and it continues to be the all-sufficient word of God for our time:

“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” - 2Timothy 3:16,17

You may say, “but since Christians are not in agreement as to what the NT says and what the NT means, the house continues to be out of order. Therefore, it needs to be put in order by modern-day apostles and prophets”. So what else is new! Not even those who lived in Paul’s day remained faithful to the word that he had received from the Lord:

“For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.” Acts 20:29-32

As you can see, this has been going ever since the church was first brought into existence – even when the apostles were living. It is an unavoidable condition of the human heart to distort or manipulate what God has said in order to justify our disobedience and to “draw away disciples” after us. But when Christ comes, He will put the house in order according to His word.

Chuck, your understanding of apostleship places you squarely in the camp of Roman Catholic tradition and of their claim to an unbroken chain of command going all the way back to St. Peter, who supposedly was their first pope. Other groups have made similar claims: the Mormons, the Adventists, and most recently the Manifest Sons of God, the Latter Rain Movement, the Signs and Wonders Movement, and C P Wagner’s New Apostolic Reformation.

Grant it, as one who was once inside the Latter Rain for the space of three years, specifically the Restoration Movement (not the Stone-Campbell version), I can relate with your dilemma. Maybe the following word of the Lord will help get you turned in the right direction:

“And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest. And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve. For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.” – Luke 22:24-27

Chuck, what we need today is not modern-day apostles and prophets who can exercise lordship over the churches. What we need is humble servant leadership capable of inspiring the flock by example and faithful teaching of God’s word.

-- Anonymous, October 20, 2002

Answers

Phil You gave the definiton for apostle not me.The definition you gave is "one who is sent".You still cannot give chpt.and verse that states,From this time on there will be no apostles or prophets.You gave chpt. and verse stating there will be false apostles and false prophets,so using your logic YOU MUST BE A FALSE TEACHER BECAUSE THE WORD SAYS THERE WILL BE FALSE TEACHERS.So does that make everyone who claims to be a teacher false.By no means does it mean that.Like wise I am sure there were false prophets and false apostles in Pauls day and there were also real ones. I do not believe in a supreme authority other than Jesus Christ himself,and the scriptures.What does bother me is in the church the Lord has goverments and people ignore it.2nd Peter 2 and 10 the word speaks of people who despise goverment,selfwilled and not afraid to speak evil of dignities.Without goverment in the church we have chaos.Just like the problem that happened in the Church of Christ where I was raised.Last year the people turned on the pastor because he stepped on some toes,there sins were being revealed.So what did they do they had a congregational meeting and made false statments against him.He was not there to answer there lies so the voted him out.I confronted them about their lies they said that they were justified to lie to get what they wanted.So without any goverment he had no choice but leave,if there had been goverment he could have went to them and the leadership could have told that congregation to get in line.But now they just go on the way they were.That is one thing the apostles did in scripture all the letters to the Churches were to address problems they even made personal appearances to set things in order.That is why they were placed in the body by Jesus Christ and never taken out. As for your state ment of scripture Luke 22:24-27 was the early apostles exercising lord ship over the people? Certianally not even today we don't.Did they have God given authority to set things in order? most definatley.Even so today there are men who are God called and God sent but we have people who despise goverment.If these men are teaching the true gosple not for worldly gaia how can you call them false.I know a brother who was sent to a church that had lost their pastor,and did not have one.He drove 212 miles round trip Sun. and Wed.to keep this church together for almost 3 years and refused payment.So I ask you was he their servant? He at one time preached a week long revival in the dead of winter,he drove the 212 miles every day becuase he heated with wood that was 1484 miles and I gave him the check from the church to pay him and he gave it back,and said "this little church needs it more than me".we were a small church of about 20,so tell me Phil was he our servant? And this brother was poor he lived in a small 4 room shack of a house I knw I was to his home.Chuck

-- Anonymous, October 20, 2002

I see that I am just wasting my time with you Chuck. Your mind is made up and you do not want to be confused with the facts! At first, I actually thought I may be able to get you to see the light on this issue but apparently I was wrong. But what can I say? It is your loss.

I am also frustrated with my so-called conservative brethren who have not even responded once. Maybe they are not as conservative as they claim.

-- Anonymous, October 21, 2002

Hi Chuck,

I always understood the office of Apostle to be foundational, not on- going as the following passage testifies:

Christ Our Cornerstone

(Eph 2:19-22) Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, {20} built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. {21} In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. {22} And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

It would appear that the Apostles were specifically gifted to lay the foundation for the Church upon the Person of Jesus Christ. Once that foundation was laid their gifting was no longer needed.

I am somewhat confused by the use of "Apostle" in this thread having not had the chance to read the posts that were deleted. If you simply mean "one sent" on a mission of some sort, I would agree that there are apostles today. If you mean Apostle in the sense of one of the Twelve I would have to disagree.

-- Anonymous, October 28, 2002

Barry;

I think the idea of one sent on a mission is what Chuck has been trying to get across to Phil this whole time. I have known Chuck as my dear friend and brother and I know he would not subscribe to apostolic succession(notice that he quoted Acts 14:14).

-- Anonymous, October 28, 2002

It’s obvious that Bill U. has not taken the time to read through Chuck’s responses, otherwise he would know that apostolic succession is clearly what Chuck has in mind. This is just another one of Bill U.’s diversion tactics to get us all off his back.

-- Anonymous, October 28, 2002

OK Phil, I am following you, I am jumping to a conclusion. You have sinned by slander. The scripture's teach not to slander. You have. Now repent for your sin.

Now stick to the issue. Acts 14:14 clearly state an apostleship by mission given to Barnabas (& Paul). That is what Chuck has been about all this time.

Now Phil, stick to issues. I wrote you several questions, you refuse to answer. Why do you bring up issues but refuse to answer rebuttal questions? What is your problem?

-- Anonymous, October 28, 2002

I hope this will settle things.I made the statement that I believe in Apostles today.I never said "Apostle's of the Lamb",there is a differance.But one who is sent forth from God is an apostle.I do believe that we still have men today that are being sent by God to declare his word and to help perfect his church.I went along on this thread to get Phil to give the definition of Apostle which he did.And now we cannot deny that we have Apostles today.We also need to reconize them and the message they preach will line up with scripture or they are false.Just as the word tells us that there would be "false Christs".That does not mean "false Jesuses" False Christs are false annointed ones.They lie in wait to decieve and bring glory to themselves and not to God. Hope this clears things up as far as what my veiw point of apostles today are.And yes I will make it perfectly clear that my stand on "Spiritual Gifts" is this. Jesus Christ gave them to his church which is his body and he never took them out. Chuck Williams

-- Anonymous, October 30, 2002