Bren is considering buying a Honda Insight, and I am in charge of research. Does anyone have anything to offer? I'm going cross-eyed from reading stuff on the internet. For instance, cant find anything so far about how it handles in winter weather, since its so lightweight. Any info would be appreciated.

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2002

Answers

Have you looked for discussion groups? Like maybe check Yahoo? I think that's where I found a Prius discussion group, though I haven't kept up with it.

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2002

Well she bought one! It's one weird lookin little car! Gets 55-60 mpg,and rated super-ultra-low-emission by the EPA. Gas/electric hybrid. Makes me giggle each time we come to a stop light, cuz it shuts off! After you get over the first few times (panic, it died!) its funny to watch people at bus benches who think your car died too.

We test drove the Toyota Prius too, which I think Joy has? It was a tough choice, cuz Prius has more comfort features; its bigger, more seating, more bells and whistles included no-charge. And it will have a broader appeal cuz it looks like most other vehicles nowadays.

We went for the weird Jetson-mobile cuz we want to make a statement. Well, and cuz we're weird.

We figure this one will engender lots of attention (already has) and gets people asking questions, so we can talk about enviromental issues. Also on the back it actually says 'gasoline-electric hybrid', no question what it is.

People are mainly clueless about this stuff. It's amazing. Even the sales manager at the Honda dealership we had to enlighten! The ONLY thing he had connected with these kinds of vehicles is that people buy them so they can save money on gasoline! He was blathering on (he was a nice guy, I'm not trying to put him down...just ignorant) about how he just replaced his old Suburban with a new one.......and then we had to explain to him (without hurting his feelings) why we were buying this car. Was kinda funny. But now he knows.

Next year Ford is coming out with their little ESCAPE SUV in a hybrid. Will get about 40 mpg and is supposed to be very green too. My plan right now is to replace my conversion van with one of those when they become available. We can't seem to justify buying anything else anymore, since now they are on the market. Took em long enough!

-- Anonymous, August 06, 2002

Hmmm, I get discount pricing on Fords because my dad is a retiree, but not all vehicles qualify for the plan (such as the Mustang Cobra, much to Keith's disappointment). I had been planning on replacing my Escort with a Ranger or F150 pickup, but I may have to check into the Escape instead.

-- Anonymous, August 06, 2002

Yes, EM, I have a Prius. I wanted to be able to get more things into it -- the Honda Insight was just TOO small for my taste. And I kept my minivan. I only expected to use it occasionally, for hauling big things, but since I got the giant hound, I use it more often. I guess that qualifies as a "big thing". ;-) If I put her in the Prius, I wouldn't be able to see out, nor keep her from goosing my neck with that cold, wet nose.

Sherri, since you have an Escort, a gas/elec. hybrid will not be such a "step down". One of the reasons they get good gas mileage is because they have a smaller engine. Just not as powerful as what most folks are used to. I would have thought my little Holly (what I named her) was no more than a one-lung putt-putt when I was young and foolishly thought I had to have a fast car. Now, I simply don't care if I'm not leader of the pack.

Toyota has a minivan version of the Prius being sold in Japan. So far, however, I know of no plans to sell it here. I think they're still testing it over there. And I'm not sure how well the Prius has sold here. I am definitely seem a lot more of them around this area, BUT this is sort of the aging-hippy capital of the state, so they would be more popular here. I've read that the government has a bunch of them (can't remember if it's state, or county, or city), but I've never seen one around town. Government cars (here) are always white and have the tell-tale license plates and fleet numbers. They used to have some natural gas cars in the fleet -- perhaps they still do.

One of the neatest things about the g/e hybrids is that they create less pollution. Not simply because they are more gas efficient; they still have less emissions, because the electric motor moves the car from dead stop, which is where a LOT of the pollution and gas expenditure comes with a conventional gasoline engine.

EM, I hope you all enjoy your little car!

-- Anonymous, August 09, 2002

Yes, we are so far lovin that little car! Bren and Lotus took it up to Duluth for the Bayfront Blues Festival this weekend; Lotus drove most of the way (she still doesn't have her license, but that's another story for another time), so now she loves it too.

It really is a gas to drive; handles like a sports car should, and the ride is a bit bumpy if one is not accustomed to a sports car feel. The Insight is replacing Bren's Saab 9-3 Turbo, so there's no way she would have bought it if it didn't perform well. It's very peppy, and we have the CVT transmission, which also has an "S" gear which gives an extra boost on steep hills,although I havent used it. I presume they will get to try that one out this weekend, since Duluth is situated on a steep hillside overlooking Lake Superior. The CVT also has lower emissions than does the stick.

As small as it is, they managed to get two laptops (Bren is teaching a class at UMD while she's up there), a guitar, a large suitcase and two folding chairs in there!

It's a great communter vehicle, and great for weekend trips for one or two adults. But you're right, Joy, puttin a big hound in one would not be fun!

Do you folks ever visit epinions.com? I like to check out consumers' opinions on stuff before I buy things. They have a review from a guy who owns both an Insight and a Prius that was interesting.

-- Anonymous, August 10, 2002

I am so divided as to how I feel about these electric cars. Yeah, I know they're better for the environment but...Harry and Mike make their livings from the repairs of the gas and diesel vehicles!! Probably we'll make it through the next ten years or so til our retirement with enough gas vehicles around to support us...but what about my son and his family?? Ya know, the cars and trucks of 20 yrs. ago or more were MUCH more fuel efficient (if properly maintained) than today's vehicles!! The more the EPA messes around with them, the worse they get!

I am glad that you folks are happy with the Honda Insight, EM....really!!

-- Anonymous, August 10, 2002

Marcia, the hybrids very much run on gasoline! And while I'm not really knowledgeable about such things, it's my understanding that that part of the system is fairly "standard". The electrical part is more of a supplement to the gasoline system, rather than a replacement. In terms of repair, however, I could not say!

Probably they won't be so popular so soon that it will substantially affect Harry anyway.

Off to epinions to see if I can find the guy with both cars . . .

-- Anonymous, August 10, 2002

Marcia, I wouldnt give a moment's worry that your Harry will have no cars to fix...........most folks are clueless about these issues anyway, and there are only a handful of em to be found anywhere. Remember,even the sales manager was clueless! Unfortunately for the environment and our national security, it will be a long time before the majority of people have alternative vehicles. Probably most won't until they have no choice.

Of course it *is* coming eventually;there is obviously no way to sustain an economy based on petroleum forever. We are killing ourselves in more ways than one. Your son can learn to fix the next generation of vehicles; we will always need mechanics!

Is it really true that older vehicles were more fuel efficient? How is that possible when they were so much heavier? Inquiring minds want to know. I love really old cars; they had such style and personality. Like in the 50's and before. Aside from the less gasoling issue, I *am* pretty sure those ol' beauties had pretty toxic emissions, didnt they?

-- Anonymous, August 10, 2002

Well, I know the gasoline was heavily leaded. Don't know about more fuel efficient . . . .

-- Anonymous, August 10, 2002

hey, glad you guys are getting into alternative vehicles; too cool!

I hear that the hybrids are really quick. I also understand that the EPA mileage ratings show that they actually get better mileage around town than on the highway, unlike standard internal combustion cars. Apparently the hybrids offer no real advantage on the highway, but are able to charge the batteries by "braking", so they are major efficient in stop and go traffic. I guess the electric parts are dormant once the car is up to speed on the highway, after the batteries are charge up, and the car is running exclusively on the gas motor.

Does this sound like what you guys are experiencing, EM and Joy?

I also heard a hybrid car "expert" on public radio a month or so ago, and he said that the Honda Insight would get about 95 miles per gallon if it were run only on the gas motor, and there were no heavy batteries and no electric motor. However, he thought that no one would be satisfied with the limited power of just gas motor. Obviously I can't say for sure, having never experienced one, but I THINK I'd be pretty happy with a 95 mpg gutless car. Except I doubt if I'd fit in one, alas.

I'm also interested in the all electric cars. For instance Ford has been marketing their EVs in Scandanavia for some years now, and allegedly will be marketing some of them in the USA sometime this fall.

According to EPA, these cars are the cats meow for city folks, who they tell me do 80% of their driving within 25 miles of home. The EVs, or more precisely the NEV's (Neighborhood Electric Vehicles) are designed for this 80%, since they typically have a range of 50-75 miles, and can be recharged in the privacy of your own garage when you're not driving them. The idea is, you jump in your EV to zip down to the market, or to work or what not, but drive your "regular" car for long trips. Makes since to me!

A friend of mine had an old golf cart, in fact, which he used to zip around his ranch, mostly on weekends, since he worked M-F. He put solar panels on the roof of the thing, and every time he needed to drive it, it was fully charged. By the sun only. Cool, eh?

One of the Ford EV's (One of the "TH!NK" vehicles they are going to be marketing here) supposedly only costs a penny or two per mile in electricity, and has essentially no maintenance, as these cars have no starter, no carburetor, no valves, no fuel injection, no pistons, no cam, no crank, no push rods, no spark plugs ,no ignition sytstem, no cooling system, no antifreeze, no oil pan, no oil filter, etc. I could go on and list every part I could think of whic is found in an internal combustion motor, but not in an electric motor.

Oh, yeah, not just the motor; there are no transmissions, no drive shafts, no u-joints, no differentials, etc.

The only big item that will need repair or replacement is the battery. I don't know yet how much these will cost, nor how long they will last. Has anyone else heard about this aspect of EVs?

I only wish that I lived close enough to any of my destinations where I could justify buying an EV, but I'm 12 miles from the nearest city, and it's over a couple of passes. Maybe they'll design one with more range, once the shorter range ones catch on.

Gotta go; my charge for the day is to fortify the fence, as Bambi has figured out how to get in somehow. Lots of investigative work and "real" work to do, I fear. Bad Bambi!

-- Anonymous, August 12, 2002

Here's an article on the financial aspects of hybrid vehicles from Bankrate.com. According to this, buy one if you're concerned about the environment but don't expect to save any money. The savings due to increased fuel efficiency doesn't offset the increased cost of the vehicle itself, repairs are expensive, and the resale value is unknown.

Bankrate

-- Anonymous, August 12, 2002

Hey, Joe, I know I'm no mechanical genius, so forgive me if I sound thick, but I am confused by your post.

My understanding is that the reason hybrids get such good mileage in town is, like you said, because they are primarily using the electric motor, and little gas at all. In other words, since the gasoline engine is what we are measuring in energy usage when we refer to MPG, the MPG is excellent in town cuz we aint usin it much.

So why would the Insight get even higher mileage if it used only the gas engine? Or did you mean to say the electric motor? Help!

Another thing, the Insight, even though primarily using only the gas engine at higher speeds, still gets way better mileage than ordinary vehicles, because of its unique aerodynamic design, and its light weight.

The advantage to the hybrids over current models of EV's, at least the ones I've read about, is that they do not require charging the batteries, even in the privacy of your garage. If you are plugging into the grid every day to charge your vehicle, even though its energy efficient, you are still requiring an outside source of electricity for your transportation needs. The hybrids, as you point out, produce their own electricity in the process of driving, during normal braking and deceleration.

Another advantage to this is that there is some hazard connected with lazy and/or ignorant consumers buying a EV and not maintaining the batteries. Even though maintenance on other components is minimal, the batteries are too easily over-charged, resulting in serious fire hazards. There was just a few weeks ago a case like this involving a super-model who used an EV, which is basically a golf-cart, she used for neighborhood errands, which overcharged and ended up burning most of her house down overnight. The manufacturer said it had to do with improper battery maintanence, since she apparently had done everything else right. I dont know how common this is, but I have read that it happens quite a bit?

-- Anonymous, August 12, 2002

Hi, Earthmama; I’m glad you asked :)

You don’t sound at all “thick”; very few people who have not done a lot of study on the subject, or studied advanced physics, really understand these concepts.

I’m afraid I’ve only been paying attention to news articles, and occassional writeups on the hybrid cars, but I have studied advanced physics, though it’s been 25 years or so..

The way the hybrid works, (at best, and I’m pretty sure this is how the Honda and Toyota hybrids work), is that they use the gas engine for power, and use the electric motor to convert power which the gas engine has converted to charge in the batteries into mechanical power.

In other words, let’s assume that your car is fully charged when you start out in the morning. Your electric motor will get you going, and at some point (this is where I need more details) the computer will “start” the gas motor, in order to do one of two things: give you faster acceleration than the electric motor can deliver by itself; or to charge the battery after it has drawn down to a certain point.

I assume that if you were to drive at a constant speed, and that speed was slow enough that the electric motor could hold the car at that speed with no assistance, the gas motor would periodically come on to charge the batteries, then turn off for a while until the batteries were discharged enough to require the gas motor to turn on again.

When you are in a city driving situation, the electric motor can likely propel you for a ways without the gas motor kicking in, but the batteries will be getting gradually more and more discharged; at some point the gas motor will have to kick in to charge them. Of course, if you’re going down a long grade, or “engine braking” with the electric motor acting basically as an alternator, you’ll be charging the battery some in this manner. But if you drive up a hill, then brake back down the same hill, or accelerate to a certain speed and then brake down to the original speed, there will ALWAYS be a net loss in charge, and the gas motor will need to eventually charge the batteries again.

The reason the hybrids get such good town mileage is that they are able to recover some of the power which “regular” cars lose to heat while braking. The hybrids convert a certain amount of this “kinetic energy” into “potential energy” instead of heat energy. The “potential energy” in this instance, is the kilowatt hours of charge in the batteries. To address your idea that hybrids use mostly electric energy in town: this may be true, but ALL the energy the electric motor uses (by taking charge out of the batteries) comes originally from the gas motor. (except the energy gained by braking, and you have to earn that energy by getting the car up to speed, or up a hill, in the first place)

The reason the hybrids get better mileage in town than on the highway, is because any car, including a hybrid, will tend to get better mileage at low speeds than at high speeds (disregarding the energy loss of braking. ) So if any car were to drive a steady thirty miles per hour, with no accelerating or braking, it would get higher mileage than if it held a steady sixty miles per hour without accelerating or braking.

You said, “Another thing, the Insight, even though primarily using only the gas engine at higher speeds, still gets way better mileage than ordinary vehicles, because of its unique aerodynamic design, and its light weight. “ This is certainly true. And it’s why I believed the guy about the hybrid getting better mileage without the batteries and the electric motor. Apparently the gas motor is small and efficient, and along with the light weight and aerodynamic design of the car, can deliver this amazing 95 mpg.

Incidentally, I assume the reason the Evs can run on only a penny or two per mile is because they are very small and light, as well.

Sorry, I’m a better scientist than a writer, so I hope you can figure out what I”m trying to say!

And don’t get me wrong; I’m not dissing your hybrid car; not at all! I think they are an excellent idea, as proved by their excellent gas mileage. I’m just wondering if at some point electric cars won’t be better for short hops, or even for long trips, if we could get some sort of system in place to swap batteries easily at “service stations”.

In a perfect world, I’m thinking that an EV MIGHT be a better solution than a hybrid, as the maintenance costs should be a small fraction of the hybrids’. The hybrid has two complete systems, while the EV only has the one.

Actually, now that I think about it, perhaps the hybrids don’t have two complete systems. I suspect that they don’t need trannys or differentials, for instance.

Regarding "The advantage to the hybrids over current models of EV's, at least the ones I've read about, is that they do not require charging the batteries, even in the privacy of your garage. If you are plugging into the grid every day to charge your vehicle, even though its energy efficient, you are still requiring an outside source of electricity for your transportation needs. The hybrids, as you point out, produce their own electricity in the process of driving, during normal braking and deceleration." The hybrids don't actually produce their own electricity, alas. They only turn some of the gas motor's energy into electricity. They, too, require an outside source of power (gasoline)

As far as the problem of someone burning down their house because of incorrect battery maintenance, I don't know if this really happened, or if it's another of those damned urban legends, but if it did happen, it sounds very strange. People have been charging batteries in their garages for an awfully long time, even without having electric vehicles. Furthermore, hybrids' batteries would presumably need to be maintained just as much as those of an EV; the hybrids' batteries are charged while the gas motor is running is the only difference I can see.

Not to mention it's quite simple to burn your house down by not maintaining a gas engine! (e.g. did you know it's illegal here to install a water heater less than 18" off the floor of a garage, because of the possibility of blowing up the garage from gas fumes from a leaking internal combustion engine's fuel system?)

Gotta go; still working on a deer fence violation. :-((

-- Anonymous, August 13, 2002

EM, if you haven't been to this site, it gives a pretty simple explanation of how these things work. From what I got out of it, one of the cars uses the electric s primary power source and the other uses the gas as it's primary. I might be wrong because I went through it rather fast.

One interesting thing it pointed out was about the Corporate Average Fuel Economy rule. Makes me think that the companies aren't really worried about fuel efficiency or pollution, but are using the hybirds so that they can still sell their gas guzzlers.

http://www.howstuffworks.com/hybrid-car.htm

Wildman, (needing more power)

-- Anonymous, August 13, 2002