http://www.911nationalnetwork.org/petition/

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United Call for an Independent 9-11 Truth Commission A Statement of U.S. Community, Labor, Political, Religious & Youth Leaders To the People of the United States and the U.S. Congress

"The right to search for truth implies also a duty." --- Albert Einstein

The world has experienced eight very difficult months since the attacks of September 11th, yet today the causes of that tragedy remain unclear. Americans demand and deserve the right to live secure from fear of future such attacks, yet as citizens we have been kept ignorant and powerless to address the threats against us. Credible sources have made serious allegations that the Bush administration had prior knowledge of the events of September 11th, yet these allegations have not been investigated in an open and independent manner. Most troubling is that it is these hidden facts which form the basis of U.S. foreign and domestic policy today.

As American citizens, we cannot allow serious questions regarding the events of September 11th to drop from public view. As witnessed in the Enron case, too often the perpetrators of crimes against Americans escape the full light of justice. It is our duty to make certain that in this case the truth will out. Although we are encouraged to find that there are members of Congress pursuing congressional investigations, we call for the immediate establishment of an Independent 9-11 Truth Commission, charged with the calm, determined, and open investigation of the facts related to the tragedies of September 11th, 2001.

We call for the establishment of an Independent 9-11 Truth Commission to determine and detail the facts. How and by whom were the attacks of September 11th perpetrated? What knowledge did the Bush administration possess of the attacks before September 11th? What was the history of the relationship between the Taliban government, Al Qaeda, and the Clinton and Bush administrations?

For such a commission to be truly independent it must be composed of individuals renowned for their reputations for honesty and integrity. Such individuals might be found among the members of the judiciary, among international human rights leaders, and especially among the families of the victims of September 11th.

We are united in announcing this call for an Independent 9-11 Truth Commission to the American people and to our elected officials. We will not rest until American policy, foreign and domestic, is based upon verifiable and established facts. Democracy demands no less.

-- Anonymous, June 21, 2002

Answers

JOJ. Letters like this are meant to play on the emotions of the public and have nothing to do with FACTS. And it appears to have been written by someone who knows nothing of politics, what our gov't is responsible for or how gov't works. And, it's written rather poorly. Just take the first sentence. "Very difficult months since....", simply emotional. Stating a truth to distract from suppositions later on. Then, "yet today the causes of the tragedy remain unclear". Do they really remain unclear? Two damn air liners crashed into the Trade Towers! That's not unclear. Does he mean, why? That's not unclear either. We were attacked as a result of the orders from the terrorists leader. He's on video saying what a great day it was and how that wasn't the end of the attacks. There's no doubt at to the cause. We were attacked because Osama believes that we're below pond scum on the scale of evolution. Why? Because we eat pork, let our women have civil rights and don't murder our daughters if they disobey us! We treat our women better than dogs and it offends them. We don't wipe our ass with our bare hand and we eat with our right hand. And we don't share their beliefs. It doesn't all come down to religion but most of it does. Are there other reasons why he ordered the attacks? You bet! But the primary reason is because he's a religious fanatic and his bible tells him to kill the infidels. That's us. If it was just over some foreign policy that he didn't agree with do you think he could possibly get all these people to commit suicide? No, it has to be religious so that those committing suicide will get their reward from Allah. Otherwise, they're just dead. I could go on, but it's not worth it.

Let's move on to the second sentence.

"Americans demand and deserve the right to live secure from fear of future such attacks...". Great sentence structure but beyond that, Americans can demand anything they want from the gov't but that doesn't mean that they'll get it. Any expert will tell you that if the perpetrator is willing to die for the cause then it's nearly impossible to stop him. You CANNOT protect against all terrorist attacks. It's an impossible task. Just ask all the other countries that have been under attack for hundreds of years. The gov't can take away all of your rights and liberties, turn the U.S. into a police state and they will still not be able to protect us from a terrorist attack. There is only one way, in my opinion, to stop terrorist attacks and that's to make it so costly for the terrorist that they don't want to attack us. How? No one's going to like this! When you find the terrorist, after he's already wreaked destruction on us, you kill him. His family. His parents. His grandparents. His neighbors. Anyone that knew him. Barbaric? You bet! Effective? Immediately! Suddenly, this individual who is willing to give his life realizes that he's also giving up the lives of hundreds of people he knows or loves.

Continuing with the second half of the second sentence.

"yet as citizens we have been kept ignorant..." As much as it pains me to say this, we need to be kept ignorant of certain facts. It seems like there are no secretes in Washington now a days and there need to be, whether we like it or not. We do not need to be privy to everything that goes on in Washington. No large corporation could operate if the minutes of their board meetings or all the notes from their research and development section were printed in the paper or posted on the internet. Neither can our government. In the last war, it was said that "loose lips sink ships". That is even more true today. Back then, communication wasn't as instant as it is today but little bits of information, taken from several sources would reveal a battle plan. Now all they have to do is watch the news casts. Just today it was announced that someone had overheard a cell phone conversation planning an attack in Vegas on the fourth of July. The news casters said that the FBI was investigating. Now that the news has warned the terrorist what do you think the FBI's chances of catching these people are? They'll probably just change targets now. If they do attack Vegas then we'll certainly fault the FBI because they knew about it ahead of time.

Moving on.

"and powerless to address the threats against us." I don't even know what that means.

" What was the history of the relationship between the Taliban government, Al Qaeda, and the Clinton and Bush administrations?" They're going to be hard pressed to find any group that we haven't supported at one time or another when it served our interest. At one time or another, we've given money, weapons and support to almost all warring factions in the world.

I believe that people who start things like this have, at the very least, a responsibility to be honest and simply state the facts and not editorialize. (the original originators) However, most expect us to be too busy to check facts and figures or to think for ourselves so they throw in a little truth, something you're sure to know about, tack on a little emotional material and then inundate you with references or quotes. I'm reminded of an old saying, " Believe none of what you read and only half of what you see".

Wildman, (waiting for the repercussions)

-- Anonymous, June 21, 2002

Wildman, you don't seem to want us to talk about these 9/11 issues. Well some of us like to, so there! THTHHPPTTT.....(or however that razberry thingy goes)......

What is wrong with appealing to people's emotions?" Emotions are the engines we humans run on, the tools of our communication. "Playing with people's emotions" seems to me to be precisely what the GOVERNMENT has been doing ever since 9/11. Patriotism is now defined as a love-it-or-leave-it, flag-waving fervor, and is entirely based on fear, not true love of country; same ol crap as when we were out protesting the stupid Viet Nam war. We have every right, and responsibility IMO, to question everything that's going on, and not going on.

" However, most expect us to be too busy to check facts and figures or to think for ourselves so they throw in a little truth..."

Recently I posted a link to a very extensive set of questions about 9/11, complete with lots of FACTS and considerable documentation. Did YOU actually spend some time reading this material? It was replete with all sorts of issues that the public deserves to know! Other than your response, which was similar to the one above seemingly reprimanding me for having brought it here, the silence was deafening!

So maybe you're right, after all. People do not want to go there, do want want to think about it, to talk about it. Ignore it and it will all go away, even on this board of very good people. Ignore that our government gave 45 million of your tax dollars to the freakin Taliban last spring. Ignore that our representatives MET WITH OSAMA BIN LADEN two months before 9/11, who has been "wanted" for years, and did nothing like capturing him when they had him in the room! And on and on.......

Your remedy for terrorism is straight out of the George Bush handlers' handbook, and IMO, is irrational. It brings to mind how the medical establishment "cures" cancer. How dare this disease attack me!! Here I am, minding my own business, being a good person, going about my duties, following my culture's rules, this is outrageous! Big Brother Doctor comes out to bring out the big guns.....we'll blast this evil from your midst! We'll blow it to kingdom come! Fight! Fight! Fight! So here he comes with his knife, to rid the body of the cancer! Then comes the radiation.....and then the chemo.....and the nausea.....and the hair loss......and the unbelievable suffering.......and then what is the result? ALMOST ALWAYS one of two things: the patient is sent home to die, because there is no immune system left to fight any disease whatsoever.....or....the patient is declared cancer-free!!

Course there is one lil ol bit of info that Doc doesnt usually advertise.........all the crap they put in your body to "kill the enemy" only served to put the enemy on hold in a different location, where it spends its time recruiting lots and lots of new friends. If you thought the orginal "enemy" was bad, hold on till you see the new and improved one!

Islam does not teach people to hate, or to kill. Fundamentalist "Muslims" are no more Muslim than are "fundamentalist Christians" really Christian. They are zealots with an agenda, and their agenda is based on fear. They are no more or less dangerous than our own brand of zealots here in the good ol USA. Shall we blast the entire state of Utah cuz its crawling with neo-nazis (and their relatives) who have a long list of plans?

That deep-seated hatred, based in fear, came from somewhere, and IMO, to ignore that source will signal the demise of this nation. Our governnment is now, as we speak, doing things in our name all over this globe that we would find abhorrent, disgusting, and unbelievable, and we have the right to know what those things are. Not ten years later, but NOW! And in a perfect world, or country, we would know BEFORE they happened,and have a say in its ever happening again. It should seem obvious to me that we are creating many many times more enemies than we had before 9/11, and any plan involving stopping terrorism by means of yet more violence is foolishness run amok.

**more razberries** to ya!

PEACE!!

-- Anonymous, June 22, 2002

Oh no, EM. I don't have a problem with talking about 9/11 issues. What I do have a problem with is when people blindly follow the lead of someone who has an agenda and who is putting out misinformation and half truths. What I'm trying to say is before following their lead, question "their" facts and their motives. Who and what is behind the petition? What are they really trying to accomplish? What are their sources? Why is this coming up now? What's their agenda? Question, question, question. Yes, I read the references that you provided. As I said, if they had that much "concrete", verifiable evidence, then they wouldn't be calling for a petition. They'd be calling for impeachment. Just because someone wrote it, that doesn't make it a fact.

You're right about emotions. Everyone uses them and they're a great selling tool just as is quilt. Those are two of the salesman's main tools. Every good salesman uses guilt and emotions to sell his product. And believe it or not, our government is one of the worlds best salesman. They have sold us on the fact that they know what's best for us, can manage our money better than we can and that they can run our lives for us better than we can. The trick is to know when it's being used to sell something or to get you to agree to something and to not let it influence your decision to act.

Did we give 45 million dollars to the Taliban? I'd bet 45 million dollars that we did! As I said, we've supported every warring faction in the world at one time or another. And by doing so, we've made some huge blunders and will continue to do so. Our problem (the peoples) is that we don't have any idea why the government does what they do. We only see one part of the scenario (usually the results) and not the big picture. Remember, whatever their reasoning at the time, they were supposedly doing what was in the best interest of the U.S. And you know what? It might really have been in our best interest at the time. They actually do screw up that badly sometimes.

I don't really have time right now to reread my post but I don't remember saying that all Muslims are bad. I believe I said that Osama was a fanatic. In his mind, and he has stated so, it is a great coup to kill the infidel and to wipe them from the face of the earth. Again, that's us! I might not have been clear but I was referring to the Taliban's philosophy, not all Muslims. Sorry.

"as we speak, doing things in our name all over this globe that we would find abhorrent, disgusting, and unbelievable, and we have the right to know what those things are."

You're absolutely correct! I'm sure they are, they always have and they always will. I'm sure that we do many things that we consider unacceptable. We are, as a nation, a soft, compassionate, turn the other cheek people. Some of the other countries do not have the same philosophy that we have. I'm sure we'd find cutting the hand off of a thief to be abhorrent however, it sure cuts down on the amount of thieves in that country. And stoning an adulteress to death seems a little harsh to us. As was posted earlier, eating dogs seems abhorrent to us but the fact is, the rest of the world doesn't THINK like we do. And our shock at these things comes from a country of people (former English), who only a few hundred years ago, made family events our of public hangings and head choppings. Some of these countries are still living in the 1700's. Trying to go into those countries and operating as goody two shoes doesn't work. There's some question as to whether we should even be in those countries but even though the American people complain about our involvement or interference in the policies of other countries, they would complain even more if they couldn't afford or get gas for their cars, couldn't get parts for their imported cars or any number of other things that we have become dependent on. That's mainly what our involvement amounts too. Making sure that we have the things that we have become accustomed too.

I totally agree with your cancer scenario but not as it applies to stopping terrorism. Again, we're talking about totally, diametric opposed customs, life styles and ways of thinking. If we go in and supply the good Muslims with food, blankets and medical supplies, the Taliban come in, kill the people and ultimately, we supplied the Taliban with food, blankets and medical supplies. It's already happened. Remember, please, the Taliban and Osama are not playing by our rules. If we don't adapt and play by their rules, then we have no chance of winning and are simply killing our young solders for nothing (emotion) (oh, and guilt).

One of the major problems with this type of discussion and again, I don't have a problem with discussing it (and WHY would you care if I did?), is that there's hundreds of things to consider. You cannot just discuss one thing without taking dozens of other things into consideration and pretty soon it gets really, really complicated.

Please, EM, JOJ, don't stop because I disagree. That would give me way too much power and I don't know that I could wield it intelligently! Well, yes I do know and no I couldn't. Fight back if those are your beliefs.

Wildman, (the last time I got razeberried, the post disappeared)

-- Anonymous, June 22, 2002

Ok Wildman ol boy......round two! :)

" What I do have a problem with is when people blindly follow the lead of someone who has an agenda and who is putting out misinformation and half truths."

Now I KNOW you ain't referrin to me and ol Joe here! Cuz surely you couldn't possibly think that we would fit in that there category of folks, so I'm a little confused as to why you included it?

" Who and what is behind the petition? What are they really trying to accomplish? What are their sources? Why is this coming up now? What's their agenda? Question, question, question."

To me, their "agenda" is getting answers to those very questions they have posed! Answers the government is not handing over, answers we have the right to know. And what is the difference who is behind asking the questions? I don't see where the source of the questions makes them any less legitimate?

"... if they had that much "concrete", verifiable evidence, then they wouldn't be calling for a petition. They'd be calling for impeachment. Just because someone wrote it, that doesn't make it a fact."

Of course it doesn't make it a fact, but neither does it mean that it is a falsehood. And what do you consider concrete, verifiable evidence? How else does one GET concrete, verifiable evidence then by asking questions? And how does one get answers to questions when by the very asking of them one is branded unpatriotic, a nutcase conspiracist, or even a terrorist sympathizer? Rep Cynthia McKinny from Georgia has tried to get the attention of the media in these issues for months, and she has been dogged and maligned beyond belief by even her own party (Dems) for her efforts. Do you think our wonderful spineless representatives will actually display the cajones to follow her lead? To step out of line and be threatened in all sorts of whichways? To actually ask REAL QUESTIONS that need to be asked HA! They will do, at best, what they always do; perform a little theatre for the public, to quiet the few of us who make noise, pretend to do an "investigation", and then wait for it all to fade away into the congregate distant memory.

"Did we give 45 million dollars to the Taliban? I'd bet 45 million dollars that we did! As I said, we've supported every warring faction in the world at one time or another. And by doing so, we've made some huge blunders and will continue to do so. "

I don't think the US govt gave our arch enemies, the Taliban, a gift of 45 million bucks as a blunder; I don't think it was a blunder at all! I find it entirely feasible that they were trying to bribe them to let us put that pipeline through Afghanistan,and our govt would pay whatever the heck to get it done. Didn't work of course, cuz their religious fanatacism is stronger than their lust for funds. Something our culture has a hard time comprehending. How could anything be more important than the power of money?

"Our problem (the peoples) is that we don't have any idea why the government does what they do. We only see one part of the scenario (usually the results) and not the big picture. Remember, whatever their reasoning at the time, they were supposedly doing what was in the best interest of the U.S. And you know what? It might really have been in our best interest at the time."

Sorry, dear Wildman, I love ya, but this idea has got me ROFLMAO! I find this concept a bunch of paternalistic crap! I guess it depends on how one defines "in the best interests of the US." If you define it, as you say here, as "Making sure that we have the things that we have become accustomed to", then yeah, that'll work. If you define it as getting whatever we want, how much we want and when we want it, and damn the consequences to the future of the planet and how our boundless greed affects those with whom we share this globe, then yes, our govt does what is in our best interests, bless their hearts. Course its just a convenient coincidence that the many many of the Bush cabinet has profitable connections to the oil industry. As for me, I want to know what they're doin, and where and why my tax money is going overseas. Does anyone with half a brain actually think we are so involved in the middle East in the first place, be it Israel or Iraq, because of any reason other than oil?

Wildman, your vision of us as a kind and compassionate people is decidedly not the view that most of the world has of us. We may not cut off the hands of theives in this country any more, but we most assuredly have many, many times supported and even helped install governments that do.

I gotta go now; am being called to go watch a movie and can't think when I'm being rushed. Later..........

Peace and love and stuff,

-- Anonymous, June 22, 2002

Hi, Wildman , Although I was not really trying to address the "why" of 911, at least as far as why (if?) Bin Laden directed the attacks, I can say that I disagree with your facile answer to your own quesiton. I believe that, assuming that OBL was the mastermind, there were likely many more reasons for his actions than "mostly religion" (and our not wiping with a bare hand etc etc.) The US foreign policies are at least in dire need of review by the American public, as they certainly have to have played a part in OBL's hatred of us.

Second sentence. I agree with you that we'll never be able to be totally secure in othe way stated: "Americans demand and deserve the right to live secure from fear of future such attacks..."

On the other hand, it would be nice to be able to belive that our own President was not complicit in such a terrible event, and that we at least should not have to worry about Him doing such a thing again.

Your "solution" (kill him. His family. His parents. His grandparents. His neighbors. Anyone that knew him) is not only barbaric, but is also abominable. Put the shoe on the other foot, Wildman; if your neighbor went over to, say, Iran, and blew off a bomb , or was SUSPECTED of doing so, do you really want to be on the receiving end of a bullet by the Iranians, because you happened to be the guy's neighbor? Sheesh. Not cool, dude!

Wildman, you say, " Believe none of what you read and only half of what you see". " How ironic; should we then disbelieve everything you wrote here?

Earthmama, thanks for making your case so well. Better written than anything I can say! (But I'll keep trying :) I agree with your saying that we should know BEFOREHAND; if we'd been given the information about what the govt was doing fifty years ago, in Guatemala, just to name one case, we'd have spared the lives of somewhere in the neighborhood of a million fine Maya people, whose lives were "sacrificed" for an American corporation--United Fruit.

Wildman, do you think it is any better now for the govt to operate in secret than it was then?

In addtition to the fact that there are many people who are convinced enough of Bush's involvement that they ARE calling for impeachment, I would also point out that those of us who are not 100% certain of the facts are calling for this investigation in order to BE certain of the facts! How else should we find out? Rush Limbaugh, perhaps?

I have to go get ready for a wedding, so can't finish this reply. I'll get back asap. For now, I think the bottom line is that you have a lot of faith in our government which I do not have; when my daughter in law called us at six thirty in the morning and told us about the twin towers, my wife said, "Bush did it". I told her that she was acting even more cynical than me! Now, I'm not so sure.

Wildman, if you want a lot of what APPEARS to be good, hard data, please go to emperors-clothes.com.

Gotta go.

-- Anonymous, June 22, 2002

FDR knew of pearl harbor in advance also. Our country is unique in the fact we like to bitch and piss and moan and our Constitution guarantees us the right to do so. The same ones doing the bitching now , would in all likelyhood complain of their freedoms being restricted or accused the administration of being parinoid had everything been disclosed at the time. Of course with publicity, a different form of attack would have occured as all airlines would have been grounded. Imagine all the B,P&M that would have generated. Non disclosure is a normalacy of our government that is neccesary due to our social diversity. Everyone needs to understand that we are not a democracy, but rather a republic of democratic selection. We elect people to represent our best interests, not keep all information disclosed to everyone, including our enemies. Folks that are pissed about the sitting administation should also be pissed at their elected representaves and senators, who are their selected voice.

Its doubtful with the current state of affairs that an investigation will get implemented and even if it does , all it will succeed in is a waste of tax dollars and give an opportunity to blame the current administration (course it might make the democrats feel better about the Clinton fiasco :>)

The real blame actually lies with the F.A.A. for not having adequate measures to handle an aircraft beyond their control. Of course had they been able to shoot them down, the terrorists would have disappeared and there would still be B,P&M. because there would not have been a defined threat.

Dang if ya do, dang if ya don't.

BTW a raspberry is "PLHHHFFFTTT" according to Bill the Cat :>)

-- Anonymous, June 22, 2002

Welcome back to the discussion. Joe, I don't think I said that our interference in their politics had nothing to do with the attack but when they accepted our 46 million dollars, they didn't seem to have a problem with us, now did they? They probably still hated us and considered us infidels but as long as the money was flowing, outwardly, they were our allies. Who knows what set these people off but the fact remains that without the religious fervor they would not be able to get these people to commit suicide just to kill Americans in protest of our involvement in their politics.

." it would be nice to be able to believe that our own President was not complicit in such a terrible event" Well, you're absolutely right about that! But why do we believe that the President was involved? If any of the reports stated that on Sept. 11 that the terrorist were going to hijack planes and crash them into the World Trade Towers and they did nothing, then there might be a case to be made. However, as far as I can tell, all the reports stated that there might be an attack or they might attempt or it's a possibility that the U.S. may be attacked at some unspecified date. There's a big difference in "knowing" and "suspect" or "possibility" or "probably". I couldn't find one report that said that we "knew" that we were going to be attacked. What could have been done if we suspected that someday we were going to be attacked? Just think about this for a minute. Would the American people have put up with the present airport security that we have now, before the attack? How about the armed guards, the military walking around the terminal with weapons before the attack? Even now we have complaints that the airports are profiling! Of course they're profiling. If our terrorist were Mexican, wouldn't we be looking more closely at people of Spanish decent and not so hard at Asians? Before the attack, we thought we had adequate airport security just as the White House thought they had secure air space around the White House; until the guy flew his private plane through it the other day and they couldn't respond quick enough to have stopped him from crashing into it, had he wanted. Would we have put up with the easing of restrictions for wiretapping, surveillance, etc. that the FBI now has? Can you imagine a President announcing that we're going to have a new branch of government called "Homeland Security" prior to 9/11? I don't know, but that still sounds a little Orwellian to me.

Of course I don't want to be on the receiving end of my solution. Who would? And that's the point! Let's just suppose that the U.S. decided to do away with drunk drivers. If you got caught driving while intoxicated, you went to jail. Your family went to jail. Your parents went to jail. Even your neighbors went to jail. You can trust me, drunk driving would be a thing of the past shortly. Drinking would probably be a thing of the past too. But, the point is, it would stop. If I caused all these people to go to jail because I was drunk, do you think they'd give me a chance to do it again? Not likely. If I got caught with a bottle of rubbing alcohol I'd probably be dead but the end result would be no more drunk driving. Of course it's an extreme solution but whether you use it depends on how badly and quickly you want to solve the problem. Now, while we consider this a extreme solution, there are countries where this would seem like a good idea and probably wouldn't be considered extreme at all. As I mentioned earlier about cutting the hand off of a thief. To us, that's extreme but if you think about it, they did what they had to do to stop crime. They don't put them in jail, feed and clothe them, send them back into society to do it again just to return to jail to be reeducated once again. They solved their problem. If you steal there you probably won't do it more than twice! I'm betting that they don't have 5 locks on their apt. doors like we would in N.Y. To us it's barbaric but to most of the rest of the world, it's just the way things are. To anyone who has never lived outside of the U.S. it's hard to get across how different their thinking and values are. And how different we are.

Yep Joe, if I come on here espousing facts and figures then you absolutely shouldn't believe a thing I say until you have verified them for yourself. I think the original saying was "don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see".

United Fruit, I know nothing about. However, we, the people, do not set policy directly. We are not a democracy but a representative republic. We elect representatives to vote for us and we have been doing one lousy job of it and we're going to be doing an even worse job of it in the further. We are doing such a lousy job that most people have elected to drop out of the voting process. I believe I heard that more people went on the net and voted on which image to use on the new dollar coin than voted in the last presidential election. Now, remember these representatives are suppose to be intelligent, knowledgeable people. If they're making such bad decisions (and I'm surely not saying that they're not), then do you really want everyone in the U.S. of voting age to vote on each and everything that the government does? Probably three quarters of the people in the U.S don't even know who their governor or state representative is. Probably less than half know who the Vice President is. JoJ, it's not that I have any confidence in our government, it's that I have less in the alternative.

While everyone is calling for impeachment, don't you think we should wait until they get through investigating it? I believe it's being investigated right now.

Thanks JoJ

EM. I'll get back to you later. I think since you were in a rush that you misunderstood some of the things I said. But as the old song says, "it's late, gotta get on home". Surely everyone remembers that one.

Wildman, (on the spit)

-- Anonymous, June 22, 2002

Jay, Sorry, I just saw your post after I posted. I'm not ignoring you, just missed the post. Back later.

Wildman, (being roasted)

-- Anonymous, June 22, 2002

Wildman,

Dont sweat it. We were not only keying at the same time , we touched a couple common points. Spooky :>)

-- Anonymous, June 22, 2002

I am not suggesting that the agencies of the government let the whole world know every nitpicky detail about what they are doing behind the scenes when they are trying to actually defend this land. That would be silly, and obviously counterproductive.

Yes, it is pretty well established that FDR knew Pearl Harbor was coming, and if he did nothing to try to stop it, cuz he knew an attack on this country would rally the citizenry to support our entrance into to war, then that is wrong. It is indefensible, in my mind. Telling the public that the Japanese were planning to attack Pearl Harbor is not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is using his covert agencies, his military might, to prevent it from happening. And couldnt at least the troops have been warned, so their lives could have been spared?

There is much controversy about whether or not the planes on 9/11 could have been intercepted. Many questions that need answering there. Read here: WHAT REALLY HAPPENED?

"Would the American people have put up with the present airport security that we have now, before the attack?"

Probably. Seems like the American people will put up with whatever they media tell them to. Polls show high approval ratings for this guy, and show people are overwhelmingly willing to give up their freedoms for "security." The hijackings made the pill go down easier though. It's too bad its all a crock. Soldiers in fatigues with machine guns at the airport hardly makes us any more secure! And if it did, why in tarnation wouldn't they install them there forever? What was the point? Theatre.....that's all it is. If our borders were properly monitored those guys most likely wouldnt have been here in the first place.

Wildman, I do think you done lost yo mind, when I'm listenin to your remedies for crimes! Especially about deterrence, or prevention! IMO, hatred and violence must be stopped at its source. Violence does not prevent or cure violence, it only breeds more hatred. Fear is NEVER a constructive long-term motivator for good behaviour. It doesnt come from the heart, from within, and so it is never real, never lasting.

And you never explain to my understandin why my comparison to the medical establishment doesn't work for you. Its the same thing in my eyes. Force, human arrogance, and greed will create an endless supply of enemies. We have created enemies throughout the world; look what happened in Venezuela just a few weeks ago; we're still at it. It's disgusting, and I'm ashamed to have any connection to it.

-- Anonymous, June 23, 2002

O.K., I've got some more free time now. Things here might be settling down again but I thought that once before. As you know, I don't participate in this type of discussion to a conclusion. And that's mainly because we're not likely to change each others views and the discussion could continue on ad infinitum. Instead of thinking about what's said, we tend to let the emotions, instead of the mind do the thinking. I believe that our responses are dictated by our upbringing, religion, socio-economic standing, life styles and life experiences, to name a few. We've got to be open minded and at least think about what's being said instead of just automatically responding with conditioned responses. Now, I don't remember who, but someone said that "fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity" and although I don't think it'll work, I'm willing to, at least, give it a try and not automatically rule it out!!

Wildman, (not looking for peace)

-- Anonymous, June 26, 2002

Good job, Wildman! I really liked that little speech you gave yourself today! Its a good feeling to go to bed knowin you learned something important, dontcha think? ;)

Praising open minds,

-- Anonymous, June 26, 2002

Hey Wildman, I suggest you take your open mind, and let it function while reading EM's link, above.

Thanks for the link, EM; I have read a lot of very interesting stuff at that site; I also heard the guy who keeps it up when he was interviewed on Public Radio a week or so ago. I appreciated it when he told a couple of callers that, even though their statements which supported his were interesting, he couldn't post them on his site, becasue he only posts stuff he can prove.

-- Anonymous, July 01, 2002