I haven't read it yet, but I do have the book. I've heard much about it and the great friendships (lasting decades) between the characters in the book make me keenly aware that I don't have such relationships. It seems to me in my experience that women are suspicious of and competitive (who has the nicest home, smartest kids, most money, etc.) with each other. Why is that? It's almost like you can't get too close because you might just see past the perfect image they are trying to project. I sometimes wonder if that's why computers have become so popular for socializing. You can't get too close. I would love to have great female friendships but have no idea where to look. Noone seems to have the time. It seems we should want to support and be kind to one another. Is it just me? What are your experiences?

-- Anonymous, June 10, 2002

Answers

I read the book in March, I was out of state and starved for something about home, which for me is Louisiana, and the main setting of the book. I could relate so much about how these women grew up. My formative years were the 50's and 60's and it was right out of my memory.

As for the friendships, that kind of thing is rare for just the reasons you stated. My sister went to catholic boarding school in Little Rock, Ark. and she and her lifetime friends are the closest I know to having women friend relationships akin to the book. The book is hilarious, especially if you are a southern woman.

I saw clips of the movie and much was changed from the book, but I can hardly wait to see it.

Namaste, Judy

-- Anonymous, June 10, 2002

I haven't read the book. Probably the library has it -- I could try that . . .

"No one has the time." This is the crux, IMO. Well, along with the highly-mobile population. When we are young, we have MUCH more time available. I thought I was SO overworked in college (yeah, right!). ;-) We also tend to be in "groups" with other people, mostly school, but also the beginning low-level jobs usually have people of a similar age, situation, and frankly, lack of attachments.

Then, people begin to pair up, and get busy. Their 'mate' gets the majority of their attention. Then there are kids. People drift apart and/or move away. Your good friends now live in Hawaii (this happened to me!). It gets even worse if you have 'unusual' interests. We've all seen that with homesteading -- all the people so excited to find like-minded people. Our very freedom works against us in some respects. We are free to move where we want, often getting pulled there by a job. We are relatively safe and well- protected, and there is no need to huddle together. Not just in general, but in groups based on ethnicity, religion, etc.

I don't buy the stuff about online relationships distancing us from 'real life' relationships. I think that people reach out for the online connections because they offer companionship that hasn't been found where you live!

So much for philosophy. I don't have any practical suggestions for you, Denise, sad to say. I do know that friendships do have to be tended, just like plants. And to further that analogy, the older, deeper, more established relationship needs less intensive care. You have more history, plus you still have the relationship because of some strong connection, or it would have died long ago.

With most people I 'know', I have a fragment of a relationship. There are the folks I see walking the dog, the ones I meet at the garden plot, the casual conversations in the stores, etc. Other than family, I have three good friends, but one is in California, the other two are about 30 minutes away and busy with their own lives most the time. The one who is my very 'BEST FRIEND' I do keep in closer contact with. Email has been a blessing! All three of those friendships were made about 20 years ago, in school and at work.

I've also been fortunate with my family relationships. Julie and I are very close (not in miles though!), I get along well with my brother and mother (and dad before he died), and I have a favorite cousin, who married a mutual friend, and I'm close to their son too. Unfortunately, they're the ones that live in Hawaii. But it does give me an excuse to go to Hawaii and someone to bum around with when I am there. :-)

I was reading some article that said your siblings will be the longest relationships you will ever have in your life, so if you can be friends with them, you are well off.

-- Anonymous, June 10, 2002

I would have to agree that I reach out online because I haven't been able to find people like you all here. They may be out there but I haven't found 'em. Joy, you said so many wise things (especially about the plants). I think I missed out on cultivating early. My Mom and Dad divorced and we moved quite a bit after that. So I never had the opportunity to really get to know anyone very well. And as far as family goes, I'm it! I'm an only.

I identify with the passing and fragmented associations. Different interests than most and having different beliefs and ideas than the mainstream is limiting.

One of my more interesting experiences was when I went to church. I went for about 5 yrs. (never was raised with church) trying out different denominations before I finally found what suited me. Although not the reason to go to church, you would have thought in all that time I would have made a friend. The last place I went with the kids (husband stayed home), I went for over a year and still had no one to hang out with or even sit with. I reached out and invited many people over and out. But it was never reciprocated. Too wierd!! I swear I don't have horns! My kids never really made friends either even after numerous play dates and social arrangements.

The same thing with the YMCA. My husband coaches practically year round (he takes a break in the summer). We homeschool. So that is a way for the kids to play sports and I thought to make friends. We've done all kinds of inviting , entertaining, and spent money on other people's kids numerous times never having it reciprocated. I have 4 kids. Just recently my husband took my daughter and two girls from the basketball team out to eat and to the family fun center on a rainy day. I could have killed him. He spent over 60.00. And we have never even heard from them since. Not even a thank you from the parents or would you like to come over and play sometime. But I'm sure they would go again if we invited them. They had a great time!

I just don't get it. I'm sure time is part of it. But I'm starting to wonder if people are self absorbed? They maybe just don't think about other people and what they are feeling? But yet I hear these stories like Ya ya and hear about great religious and local communities.

I hope you don't all start to think there is something wrong with me. We're really very normal. I swear!

-- Anonymous, June 10, 2002

I didn't make a close friend here until we lived here about 3 years. It was hard. I had acquaintances and old friends from our life before country living but thats kinda lonely in the everyday life of a new mother. my life was empty and other's lives too full. Now I find myself on the other end of the spectrum a lot of the time.

As for long lasting relationships.... My friend Jules and I hung with the same crowd in high school though we went to different schools. Life goes on and she moved out of province to try her wings and I muddled through University but we occassionally touched base and it was like we were never apart (and we weren't BEST friends back in high school). then she was ready to come home and it was me who went with her brother all that way to move her and her stuff home. Of the rest of our gang, little can be said because they seemed to move in a different direction and for some reason cut Jules and I both off (we have our theories but its all so petty who gives a flyin' fart). Jules went on to marry the very ex boyfriend of an old friend (that had repercussions too..childish)and I married my French darling and we kept in touch and got together through marriages and child rearing. Jules is probably my oldest friendship and I'd never change her or what we still have though we aren't close in miles (2 hours away) we are in our hearts and still, when we get together yakking its like we've never been apart a second once the catch ups are done. Friendships like that just kinda happen. Its like chemistry or something. All I can say is try to be happy with yourselves and maybe friendships will gravitate towards you.

-- Anonymous, June 10, 2002

Lotus and I went to see the movie last night. I havent read the book; I rarely read fiction, but when someone points out a good one like this to me, I'll be sure to read it.

We both enjoyed it alot. It was neat to see lots of mothers and daughters there, and groups of women, some were obviously sisters, and also groups of teenage girls. I only saw two men in the whole place; it kind of annoys me when a movie is marketed specifically to women, it deters men from even giving it a chance. Even beloved Oprah pitched it to the females in her audience.

I think it gave me lots to think about; ways in which I've shut away huge parts of myself as I got older, for so-called security. Living a life expected by others, rather than following my own dreams. Losing myself along the way, listening to warped tapes of my mother's discouraging voice.

I completely agree that friendships need tending; in fact, I think they require lots of energy. And its true that the closer the friendship is, the more safe you feel to be completely yourself, the less energy they take and the more energy they give. New friendships are unlikely to fall into that category; real closeness takes time to grow, as individuals and together. I think most women are so overworked just trying to keep up that they realize they simply do not have the energy left to culivate friendships nowadays. I think this is a huge problem in our culture, that we people suffer because of the ramifications of it, but the only way to solve it is to reorganize our priorities, and being that most people follow the status quo without question, even when its making them miserable, this seems unlikely to happen to the vast majority of women.

Dr Phil talks about how women _need_close friends in order to be healthy and happy. I usually bristle at the notions of behaviour being gender-specific, and still maintain that it may well be societally induced, but nevertheless he gives a pretty good arguement about it, complete with studies. He talks about how stats show how women react differently to crisis, and how our health is affected by a lack of close community, and that that community must include women friends, much more than does men's health overall.

So perhaps the feelings expressed on this thread, and the fact that this book, and now apparently the movie, is moving so many women so profoundly, could be because it brings out this innate need we have for just that kind of community, and so few of us have.

I guess I don't agree that friendships 'just happen.' I think they need to be sought out, at least on an energy level. I'm a big believer in taking responsibility for every single thing that happens in my life, and that includes an abundance of or a lack of friends. I have watched people drop away from my life over the years, and for many years I blamed _them_ or bigotry, or whatever. But I know now that I contributed to their walking away, because it is oftentimes impossible to see the big picture when I'm in the middle of something. Attitudes that are evident to others are particularly easy to hide from oneself, and those subconscious attitudes often keep people away. We put all kinds of emotional barriers up to protect ourselves, but unfortunately they 'protect' us from good stuff too. Learning to let ourselves be vulnerable is essential to getting close to others.

I think I've learned enormous amounts of information about human relationships and communication from participating on internet forums. Who woulda thunk? Me who got on the computer kicking and screaming at my family's insistence. And I've learned a lot about myself, and how I appear, even just as words on a page, to others. And I have even made friends, a few of whom may very possibly develop into real, long-term relationships.

It _is_hard trying to strike up relationships when you are out of most of the loops, but this has always been the case with me anyway. When we first moved into this place, our nearest neighbors walked down our long driveway and brought us jam and bread and brownies, and were just as sweet as could be. Just the past few weeks, we have noticed a distinct chill in their demeanor as we drive by. Now I know its nothing we have done; I am very careful to never bother any neighbors: always keep the dogs in the house when we aren't at home so they dont disturb with barking, the band practices in the basement and we are in the middle of three acres so no one is close by, etc. So what is it? Who knows........we all have bumper stickers (rotating) that may offend them......anti-war (they fly a flag), organic food/farming (they poison their lawn), fish with "pagan" in the center (they wear crosses), rainbows (those are always there). Some strange looking characters come down our driveway (bikers, long- haired muscians, weird and wonderful unschoolers).....lotsa scarey stuff! We'll probably never know, and it doesnt matter. You can't change people; they're all scared of 'different' people, cuz their very existance challenges their own values.

This is a very disjointed rambling.....sorry.........but I guess I feel when I am ready to once again give the energy necessary to cultivate real friendships, the Universe will get the message, and they will come in perfect timing. And these issues are not just germane to women either, IMO.

Blessings,

-- Anonymous, June 11, 2002

EM, about the "chill" from the neighbors: Sometimes such a thing would piss me off. Other times though, my ratheadness would assert itself, and I would be determined to be very friendly to them, and the colder they got, the more obliviously friendly I would get. Not hanging on their doorstep, but when I saw them I would wave vigorously. If they ignored me, I would toot the horn and wave even more vigorously with a big grin on my face. Kill 'em (or at least, annoy them) with kindness. ;-D

-- Anonymous, June 11, 2002

I was cleaning out and organizing books today and came across one I had forgotten about and have never read. I've had it for years. Just goes to show you how often I purge books. It's called Raising a Daughter. Well I got sidetracked from my cleaning and started reading. I guess Dr PHil is right. They say in this book that even as babies, girls and boys are different in the way they interact with others. Girls are clearly more interested in people and relationships and boys more interested in things. There are so many differences (besides the obvious) that I couldn't even begin to list them here. One of the problems in society is when women ignore this aspect of themselves and try to be like men. Why do they do this to themselves? Because women aren't valued for their differences. The basis for physiology and psychology alike are based on a male model. And when we aren't like the model then there must be something wrong!

Something else I found interesting is that women prefer to interact face to face. Men prefer to interact side by side (like at a sports event) or back to back (like a fighting stance). Isn't that funny that what women prefer is the most intimidating to men? Also women need to talk first then act where men prefer to act first then talk. It's amazing that we ever get together! But in a nutshell realtionships are a must for women and since men aren't into that, it leaves us women to be friends with each other.

-- Anonymous, June 11, 2002

Other than my best friend (Debbie) from high school (waaayyy back in the 60's!), there haven't been any other female friends in my life that I've felt that close with. Most definitely not my mother!! I'm sorta close to my older sister, but my younger sister has been missing for several years. My friend Debbie lives in Springfield, Ma. and we've kept in touch over the years and have visited each other. I also have a female friend from elementary school that I email and do messenger with occasionally, but have never really felt that close to her. Too many years have passed since we've seen each other, I guess. I consider Harry and I to be best friends...heck, we've been together so long now that we finish each other's sentences :-)!! BUT there are some things that I'd tell Debbie and not him! Why...I don't know. Ironically, I have made a friend over the internet Her name is Denise, also, and we met through the CS forum! We email and do messenger quite often. We'll gab and tell each other things (sometimes personal stuff) even though we've never met face to face! She's just fun to talk to!! And it's strange, too, that when we are on messenger, I don't want Harry reading over my shoulder and "listening" to our girltalk! Is that weird or what. Harry and I have absolutely no secrets, but, you know...he's a guy!! The women around here that are my age just don't seem to have the same interests as me and I'm not a very forward person so I just don't make friends easily. We have several "acquaintences" through our business, but there is no one that I'm friendly enough with that I'd feel comfortable inviting them out for a day of antique-hunting or hiking some of the Appalachian Trail here. Many of the women I know here do seem to be very competitive in the money/best home department!! I think it's very evident right here on BTS that we women seem to reach to each other more so than the men do. Wonder why??

-- Anonymous, June 11, 2002

Haven't studied the answers yet, but interesting question. May I weigh in (briefly)? And later, probably at length?

Unless young women live in extended families, their lives are likely to be isolated from other women while they tend to the needs of their own (based on current third and fourth world demographics). At work, middle-aged women's friendships are weird, based on the requirement for competition for reward. At adult women's ages, there tends to be problems with trust with other women: women outlive men; get divorced at a time when there's few available men when there's too many other women). Tough to make lasting friendships, unless you are a Renaissance Woman. Isolation and competition.

I guess being a lesbian would be a good alternative. Why didn't I think of that before?!!! 8-)

-- Anonymous, June 12, 2002

Sheepish: not necessarily :(

-- Anonymous, June 13, 2002

I haven't read the book or seen the movie, I'm not quite sure what it's about. I have a difficult time keeping people in my life. I've had very few friends in my life and I really haven't stayed in contact with any of them. I tend to have only one 'best friend" at a time. My current best friend is a woman I met 3 years ago, we just "clicked" the first time we met. But even the threads of this friendship are starting to get thin. Now that we no longer work in the same department we don't get to talk as much. She's also the type of woman who drop any plans she has with a female friend if a guy asks her out on a date. But she's still one of the best friends I've ever had.

I also tend to have many more male friends than female friends. What someone said earlier about the eye contact differences between males and females was interesting. I tend to be very eye-shy, talking to someone face-to-face makes me very uncomfortable, I'd much rather be talking side-by-side. To me there's few things worse than being trapped in a restaurant booth, forced to sit across from someone and make conversation.

-- Anonymous, June 13, 2002

Earthmama, (you da best): Too true. Some of my best friends (were) lesbians (they still live in the city and I haven't seen them in years). Hmmm. I guess I'm cursed with heterosexuality... 8-( It's that genetic thing...

I'm out of town (to our property in E. Washington) for 3 days. Hope this thread is still going when I get back. No time to reply more than this.

-- Anonymous, June 13, 2002

Most of the time I feel like I'm made up of all these little pieces, and whenever I'm with someone I have to figure out what pieces I can show, what pieces to downplay, and what pieces to hide. There's not one person on earth that I could show all of my pieces too. And then I wonder if these pieces aren't like tender little plants, and if they don't get some sunlight once in a while they just shrivel up and die. Does that make any sense?

-- Anonymous, June 14, 2002

That makes sense to me. We all want to be accepted and sometimes we fear that being our true selves won't be accepted. That's why I have been working very hard to truly love myself so I can BE myself. I hope that doesn't sound cliche.

-- Anonymous, June 14, 2002

Well, do you show "all your pieces" even to yourself? That's a semi- joke, but seriously, I am always surprising myself with "another piece" or a piece that has changed. If we aren't comfortable with all our pieces, no one else will be either!

Of course, I DON'T show anyone all my pieces [no, not even YOU, Julie! ;-)]. I don't know if anyone ever does, or if they did, the others could handle it. Still, those closest to me have seen a lot of my weird pieces. I say, "Of COURSE I'm weird, that's WHY you like me!" That usually gets me a head shake and rolling eyes . . . does that mean they don't like me? ;-)

As I said before, I only have a FEW close friends. Part of that is being a natural born introvert. I don't care for superficial "friendships" much, and I get bored easily if I don't share mutual interests with the other person. But friendships can wax and wane, too. My "best friend" and I went through a period where we didn't see each other much nor make much contact. But we never considered the friendship OVER, just sort of on hold. Now we're in touch MUCH more often, and the computer has been very helpful in that regard! No more telephone tag, for one thing!

-- Anonymous, June 14, 2002

I'm back. One thing I did this weekend, was pick up a copy of "The Divine Secrets of the Ya Ya Sisterhood" and I'm nearly done reading it.

I'm sort of in love with the book. I had (probably can resurrect) relationships with female friends something rather like the Ya Yas. (Mr. S. refers to my old group as "The Chosen Thirty" of which a handful were my dearest girlfriends...the rest were our beaux, etc). I think we could very well go back to where we left off nearly instantly. Hmm. But then, well...maybe not. Maybe we got moved to the next century...(But the stories we could tell! I still tell them!)

A couple of serious notes: The women in the book were RICH and the women in the book were living during a period when a two-person income was not the norm. Very important to note! The world is a way different place than during the Ya Yas time. .

Good read. Not sure I'm ready to see the movie (for example, the paperback book cover has a picture of James Garner on it. eeewww...)

Denise, thanks for this thread!

-- Anonymous, June 16, 2002

What's wrong with James Garner? I always liked him, starting back with his days as Maverick.

-- Anonymous, June 16, 2002

I liked James Garner on the Rockford Files (a lot). I guess now that I've seen him drooling and drifting on that Supreme Court show (briefly, b/c I'm not even sure what show it is), I'm kind of wondering what he's up to. I guess if he never was on "Murder She Wrote", he might be okay still. I can't imagine who he plays in Ya Yas from reading the book, though. Nobody said I was smart, though. That's for sure.

-- Anonymous, June 17, 2002

I've been doing more reading in Raising A Daughter. It's an excellent book so far and has given me much insight into my upbringing as well as giving me insight into why women behave in the ways I questioned earlier in the post. I still think and have had it confirmed that women are not valued for our differences from men. Remember that physiological and psychological models have been solely based on men and if you don't fit that model you are somehow lacking or weak. It's no wonder that we bury parts of ourselves in order to have relationships. And apparently women are wired to be relational (group thinking) in their appoach to most everything. If we are constantly denying what is our nature, we end up depressed, angry, have PMS, eating disorders, and many mnay other problems. Women NEED each other. We need each other to support what is natural and innate for women. We need that support to be secure enough to mean what we say and say what we mean and not fear rejection and exclusion in and from our relationships.

So from the standpoint of raising daughters, it sure is difficult to listen to anger and sadness from your child (I have 2), but so unhealthy to not listen. It can't be healthy to bury your feelings (how dare us ever be angry) or your interests (sometimes not always nurturing or nice). I guess that's where we learn to hide those "pieces" of ourselves. But I guess if our daughters are going to end up healthy women we'll need to listen and follow their lead as to their interests and support them. How else will they learn to be themselves and how to support other women?

-- Anonymous, June 18, 2002

Could James Garner possibly be the Shep (Siddas father)?

-- Anonymous, June 18, 2002

Yes, Denise, he's Vivi's long-suffering husband. I always liked James Garner myself.

-- Anonymous, June 18, 2002

Denise, I went and looked up that book on Amazon (I often do that, to read more about a recommended book). They also listed a book entitled: Growing a Girl: Seven Strategies for Raising a Strong, Spirited Daughter. It looks really interesting too; you might want to check it out. The picture of the girl on the cover gave me a start -- she could easily be related to Julie and me! :-)

So, Sheepish, continuing to pick on you about James Garner . . . . Why was his being on Murder, She Wrote a bad thing (if I interpreted that right)? I didn't even know he'd been on it, since I didn't watch that show -- too formulaic and repetetive for me, plus I've never been enchanted with Angela Lansbury. But you must have been watching it . . . so if it's 'bad' to have been on Murder, She Wrote . . . what does that say about people who watched it? ;-P :-D

-- Anonymous, June 18, 2002

I though Murder She Wrote was a travesty...first of all to Agatha Christie (and most mystery) fans, and then because of various producers' attempts at making mysteries into star-studded teevee shows such as The Love Boat (which I thought insipid, too). I felt that all those programs featuring has-been stars were rather pathetic. Anyway, as a general obnoxious opinion, I currently tend to respect actors that didn't have to play MSW more than those who did.

(Sheesh. I'm in a mean mood, ya think? I would have killed to have written an episode or have been featured on MSW. What a critic I am!)

-- Anonymous, June 18, 2002

...and I have NO idea if James Garner was ever on Murder She Wrote.

Think there's a job for me in the Obfuscation Department in DeeCee?

-- Anonymous, June 18, 2002

Yes.

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2002

Sheepish, dear, perhaps you should ask your boss to cut back on your hours some.

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2002

Goodness Sheepish, I had to pull out the dictionary for that one! Well now I can say I learned something new today!

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2002

oh. okay.

-- Anonymous, June 19, 2002

Are you guys picking on Sheepish?! Well, QUITITALREADY!

I wrote more; but it was too pissy, even for me, so I deleted it. Midol for everyone!

-- Anonymous, June 20, 2002

We's TEASING her! She can take it. She's a big ewe . . . er, girl now! An obfusticating ewe at that! Sounds sort of pornagraphic . . .

Another thread goes over the falls in a barrel!

-- Anonymous, June 20, 2002

Hey! You can pick all you want. Right now I'm picking peas and picking manure out of the barnyard. (Well, actually right now I'm sitting in the coolness of the office)...soon out to mow my lawn (er, weeds).

I took what y'all said as kidding, but the idea of taking some time offline was a good one! I'm getting some stuff done! Plus we spent all day at the Fremont Parade and Arts and Crafts Fair. (see last year's post for details!).

Talk to you tomorrow if there's an over the fence chat. 8-)

-- Anonymous, June 22, 2002