Well, I looked and I looked, but no cows. Which is odd, because I did spend a lot of time once photographing cows at traffic lights. But here's a snap of a donkey:

 

 

Nicely underexposed, too.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), May 27, 2002

Answers

Great picture, Rob! Where is it - it looks like a woman going into a cave?

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), May 27, 2002.

Thanks, Rob. It's taken in a third world country completely surrounded by a first world country where some people have to live in caves becaue their houses have been demolished by the army of the aforesaid first world country. No prizes for guessing.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), May 27, 2002.

My guess is that Mr. Al MacQaeda, the Scotsman at the top who is leading the donkey towards the distant castle whilst being surreptitiously observed by the Taliban geezers in the foreground, is probably responding to the message: "The Laird hath need of him."

As for "nicely exposed", I find that my mileage varies considerably on this point. Do you think fill-in flash would have been been appropriate - bearing in mind the politically sensitive nature of the subject?

-- Ray Moth (ray_moth@yahoo.com), May 27, 2002.

Sorry Ray, it's not Afghanistan. Nice try though.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), May 27, 2002.

If that's Chechnya, I would guess that fill flash would not only be inappropriate but potentially fatal.....

-- david kelly (dmkedit@aol.com), May 27, 2002.

David: Fill-in flash is actually quite safe, even if the subject is looking directly at the flashgun. I guess it can't be Chechnya, though, since that's surrounded by a second-world country, not a first-world country.

Rob: If it's not Afghanistan, then maybe it's Rutland - treated so badly by England that it doesn't even appear on maps anymore! Now that I think about it, everything fits well with this theory: the rocky and mountainous terrain; the scorching heat; the bleak and forbidding medieval castle; the crafty Taliban spies; the poor benighted Scotsman with his poor benighted donkey; the banana plantation that is just outside the frame; etc, etc...

On the other point you mentioned, I think you'll find that you get better pictures of cows at traffic lights if you wait until they turn green (the lights, not the cows): much more exciting action! ;-)

-- Ray Moth (ray_moth@yahoo.com), May 27, 2002.

Palestine?

-- Adrian Morgan (mourges@dingoblue.net.au), May 27, 2002.

Must be Palestine... given the diplomacy of your "clue".

-- lawrence beck (stork@lawrencebeck.com), May 27, 2002.

Yes, you both got it. But Ray's Afghanistan answer was funnier, definitely.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), May 27, 2002.

That's a really nice ass. Is Palestine still a country?

-- ray tai (razerx@netvigator.com), May 27, 2002.

Not yet, Ray.

Interestingly, I last posted images on this subject to the SP list and was inundated by email viruses for three of four days thereafter. I haven't had a significant number of viruses since then, but have just received two in the last three hours after posting this image.

Seems the pro-Israel lobby favours free and open debate, eh? Fortunately they're not able to demolish my home (yet).

BTW, Ray, I said "nicely underexposed", not "nicely exposed". I think dark things should be dark (dark in the sense of late evening after a rainstorm), although it's hard to get the balance right, I agree.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), May 27, 2002.

so here is an example of Leica shadow penetration (hope it is the rigth word). Ray please, letīs keep this out of politics, donīt start talking of bad maners among Countries, weīll never end!

-- r watson (al1231234@hotmail.com), May 27, 2002.

Viruses? just be thankfull it WASN'T a pic of Rutland Water, god knows what the people of Rutland would send you..

Any chance of seeing any more btw?

B

http://briandavidstevens.com

-- brian (briandavidstevens@talk21.com), May 27, 2002.

Where is Rutland exactly? Isn't it Norfolk or some such? I remember Rutland Weekend Television with Chris Tarrant (?) when I was a kid.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), May 27, 2002.

it's in the east midlands I think? I remember Rutland 5-0 and the Rutles

-- brian (briandavidstevens@talk21.com), May 27, 2002.

My guess would have been Texas

-- Reinier (rvlaam@xs4all.nl), May 27, 2002.

Hi rob, most of these caves have people living in them for hundreds of years. many palestinians that live in caves never had different houses so their houses were not distructed by the army. and yes, I was a guest in some of this caves (wadi djoz, east of jerusalem).

I think you should know that much of the pro- israel/palestine stuff is an american/europian game. within palestine/israel, most of us are simply people that want to end their day alive and well, and most of us, (including myself) on both sides, have lost our friends and sometimes, family members, in a cruel bloody war. that war is flamed by the international community that uses double standards to judge the israelis and the americans, for example, with their afgan adventure. I am starting to be sick of people that can take sides, and ignore the pain of the other side, no matter which side.

-- rami (rg272@columbia.edu), May 27, 2002.

Hi Rami, interesting to know you've also spent some time with such people. I spent about ten days as their guest over the last couple of months, making a TV documentary and a photo feature. I suggest we could discuss the situation of the South Hebron cavedwellers off-list if you want, it's true they have been using caves (sometimes living in them, but not by preference, mostly, although there are exceptions) for many years - since the 1880's at least - but in this particular case, their villages were indeed demolished by the IDF in the late 80's and the demolitions have continued up to the present time. There is a big court case in the israeli Supreme Court about these people from the khirbats around Yatta, it's a very interesting issue. One of the most interesting (and very positive, IMO) aspects is that the lawyers and activists supporting these people in their fight against the Ministry of Defence are mainly Israeli.

I agree about the one-sidedness of much of the media and the difference between the Israeli state and individual Israelis. Unfortunately the state is the culprit in this situation.

Anyway, I would be interested to hear from you off-list about your experience with the cavedwellers.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), May 27, 2002.

Where's the truck? Was this taken with a P&S camera?

Seriously, though. It's pretty sad that people would send you viruses because of pictures you posted. I guess they would prefer you take "nice" photos. Some people don't have a life.

-- Hadji (hadji_singh@hotmail.com), May 27, 2002.

Rob, before getting off list: but nothing in your post indicates that you are talking about a particular case, which, if I remember rightly, relates to 200-300 people? With all the tragedy that many of us (israelie/palestinians) have been through, neither the Israelis, nor the Palestinians suffered the wide scale destruction that the Afghan people suffered in the last year. From one pick and one sentence it might look similar to the Afghan tragedy that resulted out of the American bombing. It is not.

-- rami (rg272@columbia.edu), May 27, 2002.

Not going to get into the politics. I'm interested in the details of this shot. MMMMMmmmmm.... what film are you using and are you processing your own stuff?

-- Hyatt Lee (shahmat@ms63.com), May 27, 2002.

Rami, it's true that the case cites the names of 250 persons (if I remember aright), but each of these represents a family of up to ten or more people. In toto, Ta'ayush and ACRI estimate there to be around 700 affected families, which could represent a population of 7000 people. The largest village to have been depopulated (Khirbat al- Mirkez) had 200 families before '87, and now has a population of 8 families, 5 of whom stay in a single (rather nice, admittedly) cave. This picture shows the entrance to that cave, and you will note the complete absence of houses - indeed they have all been swept away.

As for Afghanistan, of course there can be no argument that the war in Afghanistan has had a far higher humanitarian cost, but I never intended comparing them in any way.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), May 27, 2002.

rob, last one "on list", really. you are right about the figures. just got reply from a Ta'ayosh friend. Afghan issue raised in the guessing above, so I commented.

-- rami (rg272@columbia.edu), May 27, 2002.

Here's another, breadmaking inside the cave:

 

 

And, Rami, this must be a first: a friendly and fair discussion of this very emotional issue. Thanks.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), May 27, 2002.

rob, thanks. I love this second picture. I find the underexposed arreas more justified in light of the nice handling of the fire. I am afraid pc monitor quality doesn't do much justice to your first pic. in a careful look I can see what you mean about the underexposed areas, but that only hints on how it would look on paper, or better, on the slide. cheers, rami.

-- rami (rg272@columbia.edu), May 27, 2002.

For those who asked, Rutland used to be a very small county in the fen district of eastern England, a neighbour of Cambridgeshire if I remember rightly. The fens are marshes, totally flat and quite the opposite of the craggy scenery in Rob's picture. Rutland disappeared in a consolidation of counties, some time in the 1960s I think. Other counties have disappeared too, e.g. Westmoreland.

-- Ray Moth (ray_moth@yahoo.com), May 27, 2002.

Rob

This time I do think your first shot really IS underexposed - it may be my monitor, but I cannot even make out what is happening in the lower right hand corner. The second shot is very nice - I guess the trusty 24 ASPH?

-- Robin Smith (smith_robin@hotmail.com), May 28, 2002.

i can see the light fall-off on the corners...what lens is this?

-- Dexter Legaspi (dalegaspi@hotmail.com), May 28, 2002.

Both 24.

Underexposed would imply that the slide itself is underexposed, which I can assure you it isn't. On my laptop screen i can see lots of detail in both pictures, so I suspect it's a monitor issue. My laptop is just as it was straight out of the box, I've never tried to second guess it. They are dark pictures, both, I agree.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), May 28, 2002.

Rob,

Isn't the 24 a great lens or what! If I had to go down to one lens only it would still be the 50 DR as noted in a recent post, but there would be more than a tear or two upon relenquishing the 24.

Hopefully more balanced thought will prevail and there will be some realization in the future that a state can not be both democratic and based upon a particular religion. Be it Judism, Catholicism, Protestant, Muslim or whatever. Granted such beliefs die hard, but until they do, only people will die. Perhaps that is the lesson the US should be passing on to the areas inhabitants.

Apoligies to those who disagree with that premise.

Jerry

-- Jerry Pfile (JerryPfile@msn.com), May 29, 2002.