For all in the forum...

Has anyone had any experience with the real manifestations of demonization in your ministry? I do not want to get into theological debates, I just want to know if anyone in our Movement is involved in any deliverance or even exorcism.

-- Anonymous, May 13, 2002

Answers

I know a preacher in the RM who cheated on his wife a number of times.....and when he was caught he told his wife he was "casting out demons."

Does that count??

True story!!!

-- Anonymous, May 13, 2002

Pulling from my memory (which gets harder and harer as the years go by) I seem to recall Fred Smith, onetime(?) and might still be a preacher in Jax, FL, saying that he had been involved in exorcism. You might check that out.

-- Anonymous, May 14, 2002

Yes, we had a man diagnosed with MPD (now called DID) who I'm pretty sure was demonized. I use the Neil Anderson material "7 Steps to Freedom" which is very biblically grounded.

-- Anonymous, May 14, 2002

I have a question. If demonic possession still occurs (that "if" does not lean one way or the other) why is it so diificult to recognize? I'm not taking anything way from Barry's post, but even he said "I'm pretty sure was demonized" showing a level of uncertainty.

There is no mention of possession in the OT. There is mentioned sacrificing to demons, but no mention of possession. During the time of Jesus it is fairly common and it was recognized with no uncertainty. What's the dif between then and now?

-- Anonymous, May 14, 2002

Scott, it is true "possession" is not a biblical term per say. The more oppropriate term should be "demonized". I did not want to get into the theological aspects of this topic, not because I cannot handle it- I can. But, my experience it has been real. I have been invovled in many exorcisms (including cleansing buildings of demonic spirits or what the world will call ghosts).

So regardless of the fine points of theology- demons are real- they are invovled in not only people of the world but also the destruction of christians and churches.

I really want to know if ministers in our RM churches are faced with this and to what extent?

BTW- In America we tend to give demons drugs- so we drug and dope their voice.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2002

Why is the theme from "Ghostbusters" running around in my mind??

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2002

AKelley:

I guess the obvious questions to ask are:

1) How did you know the buildings, people, etc., were "demonized"? What undoubtable, otherwise unexplainable evidence was there?

2) How did you know they were then gone, post-exorcism?

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2002

AKelley,

I never questioned whether demons were real. What I would like is a Scriptural basis for how they are working in our day. You tend to put a lot of credence in your own experiences. I don't. I don't put a lot into my own experiences until I validate them through the Word.

Sam asked some good questions. I'm not questioning your experiences, necessarily (although I do have my doubts), but where is the Biblical basis for your claims, or anyone else's to the contrary?

To answer your question, I am not aware of any type of ministry you are looking for except possibly Ben Alexander and ESP Ministries out of St. Petersburg, FL (at least that's where he used to live).

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2002

Scott,

You raise a valid point -- I wish I had an answer. I am not very experienced with this at all. I do know that if someone is having what appear to be psychological problems I will refer them to someone capable of dealing with that. At the same time, I recognize that many supposed psychological diagnoses are actually simply labels that psychologists/psychiatrists put on behavior that they cannot really test medically. For instance, there is no way to test schizophrenia -- it is not a chemical imbalance. It is simply a label placed on people hearing voices in their head, etc... I believe that most of these cases are demonization, but definitely not all. I would be very careful before telling someone they are demonized. If they really did have a psychological problem, and their minister told them they were demonized, the psychological problem would only get worse.

Anyway, I'm baffled by this myself. Neil Anderson's book The Bondage Breaker is very helpful.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2002

Scott, while it is true we must validate everything through scripture- there are times scripture is unclear or unspecific in certain areas. For example- no where does scripture indicate that demons stopped their wicked actions in the NT age. In fact Jesus gives us the authority in Mark 16:16ff after his death burial and resurrection. Also, in Rev. 12 the devil knows his time is short thus we is upon the earth to destroy the works of God. Peter describes the devil is like the Lion of the tribe of Judah prowling and seeking to devour the Christian. But, we are given only small pictures of exorcisms in the NT- Jesus cast them out with a word, sometimes he repeated the command, some times He laid hands on the people, some times he told the demons to be quite, and some times He told them to speak. But, we are never given a clear cut example on how. It largely depends upon the moment and what the Holy Sprit leads you to do. Catholics uses water, salt, and anointing oil in exorcisms- which the bible does not mention. But, they do work- they irritate demons and it often burns them. I know this by experience.

For my experience- one case that I have had invovled a woman whom a demon spoke through. She was taken over by a demon. The demon spoke through her. It was assigned to her to kill her all through her life. THis demon worked through her to destroy her through various attempts (some too sensitive that I cannot get into). After the demon named itself and told me its assignment- I bound it by the name and through the blood of Jesus then I told it to come out- the session took over an hour. But finally the demon left. One evidence that they (demons) leave is vomiting, coughing, or with the case of lesser demons yawning. I also blew a shofar (which demons hate) and it left with a scream. The woman fell to the ground and it was gone. Often you have to depend upon the spiritual gift of discernment. But, you can tell if it is gone. Follow up may involve more deliverance and much counseling and a whole lot of prayer. But, all in all she is free today!

Danny, this may sound like "ghostbusters" but until you experience this you'll never know how powerful the name and blood of Jesus truely is. We are given full authority to tread on the snakes or serpents. Personally we in the RM churches need to see the need for this type of work- I think we have too many demons in the churches today.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2002

Sam & Scott, while it is true we must validate everything through scripture- there are times scripture is unclear or unspecific in certain areas. For example- no where does scripture indicate that demons stopped their wicked actions in the NT age. In fact Jesus gives us the authority in Mark 16:16ff after his death burial and resurrection. Also, in Rev. 12 the devil knows his time is short thus we is upon the earth to destroy the works of God. Peter describes the devil is like the Lion of the tribe of Judah prowling and seeking to devour the Christian. But, we are given only small pictures of exorcisms in the NT- Jesus cast them out with a word, sometimes he repeated the command, some times He laid hands on the people, some times he told the demons to be quite, and some times He told them to speak. But, we are never given a clear cut example on how. It largely depends upon the moment and what the Holy Sprit leads you to do. Catholics uses water, salt, and anointing oil in exorcisms- which the bible does not mention. But, they do work- they irritate demons and it often burns them. I know this by experience.

For my experience- one case that I have had invovled a woman whom a demon spoke through. She was taken over by a demon. The demon spoke through her. It was assigned to her to kill her all through her life. THis demon worked through her to destroy her through various attempts (some too sensitive that I cannot get into). After the demon named itself and told me its assignment- I bound it by the name and through the blood of Jesus then I told it to come out- the session took over an hour. But finally the demon left. One evidence that they (demons) leave is vomiting, coughing, or with the case of lesser demons yawning. I also blew a shofar (which demons hate) and it left with a scream. The woman fell to the ground and it was gone. Often you have to depend upon the spiritual gift of discernment. But, you can tell if it is gone. Follow up may involve more deliverance and much counseling and a whole lot of prayer. But, all in all she is free today!

Danny, this may sound like "ghostbusters" but until you experience this you'll never know how powerful the name and blood of Jesus truely is. We are given full authority to tread on the snakes or serpents. Personally we in the RM churches need to see the need for this type of work- I think we have too many demons in the churches today.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2002

Sorry I typed a response and hit the button too many times- sorry Danny

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2002

AKelley,

First of all, why do you think Danny has inferior knowledge of the power of Christ than you do simply because of your experiences? Experience is a dangerous word and a dangerous foundation to build upon - which is one reason, of several, that I do not trust your experiences and am wanting something less subjective.

Second, you say, "Catholics uses water, salt, and anointing oil in exorcisms- which the bible does not mention. But, they do work- they irritate demons and it often burns them. I know this by experience." You lose me here. How can a pagan religion chase away demons? A religion which thinks it re-crucifies Jesus every week? This, to me, demonstrates that what you're talking about is purely psychological. Demons are not affected by magic potions or magic words. It is the power of Jesus which rules over them. If someone with a psychological problem believes, like you, that there is power in the olive oil, yeah, he'll have a response, maybe even follow through with the steps you mentioned (vomitting, etc.). Not because of an actual demon, but because that's what he thinks he's expected to do.

When you step off of the Scriptures in the stands you take, you end up standing on nothing. So, I ask again, what Biblical basis do we have for these things? It's a serious question.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2002

Scott, let me ask you a question... where does it mention in the scriptures that demon activity has stopped? Where does it say that we the church will never encounter the problem? And where does it state that because of the cross we forever will live at peace not having demonic problems? According to your lines- Jesus had a psychological problem. For he casted out demons where ever He went. It was a given to Him that demons are real and they were a real problem with people. If you want scripture look at the bulk of gospels. For Jesus was active in chasing the enemy out.

According to your logic, my experience is either a psychological problem that I have or the people that I have helped. In either case I am deluded and deceived. Can a Kingdom be divided? Can Satan cast out Satan?

Scott, you can theologize all you want- the simple fact remains- the kingdom of darkness is real and demons are real. Not, based only on my experience, but the whole NT and OT as well. Now my expereince, lends me to the use of object as water, oil, and salt- they have no power themselves- Christ holds the power. But, when I pray over them and ask the Holy Spirit to anoint them- they become powerful tools for the HS to use against the enemy.

I mention the Catholics, because like it or not they are very informed in what works and does not in exorcisms. They have hundreds of years experience. Now I great disagree about many things they believe in or do. Regardless of our views about them, they have been ordianing offical exorcist for years. But, the protestant church has been scared of the topic, especially in RM circles, because we either sound like a Catholic or a Pentecostal.

BTW- my remark to Danny is in response to his sarcastic humor, which tells me that he has either no interest in this topic or does not think my view is valid. I meant no ill will to Danny.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2002

True....Satan cannot be divided against himself.

Therefore, how is it that he allows an organization (i.e., the RCC)....to cast out his "underlings" (i.e., demons)...considering he has been using the RCC for years to deceive millions??

All of which is in accord with the workings of how Satan uses the "man of lawlessness"...(i.e., the papacy) to deceive the multitudes.

How then can he be divided against himself?

-- Anonymous, May 16, 2002

AKelley,

It's probably because we have butted heads so many times in the past, but you are assuming things about me that aren't necessarily so. I never once said that demonic activity ceased. My question is, what Scriptural basis do we have for saying they have ceased or are still prominent today (or at least in the way we see in the NT). My problem is that I do not see either.

BTW, theology is what we are discussing here, so anything we do is "theologizing".

I never even came close to implying Jesus or those He helped had psychological problems. Nowhere!

The people you have helped do not seem to be in the same ballpark as the NT examples. Were they made blind & mute? Did they throw themselves into fire? run around graveyards with no clothes on, break chains, etc., etc.? From what you have stated here, it seems that those you have helped had psychological problems, not demonic imho (at least from what you have stated here). You will not convince me that pagan religionists cast out demons. That only happens in the movies. Satan's house is not divided, as Danny pointed out.

And you're still going to have to come up with something more than your own experiences. I want something more substantial - Scripture. Am I to believe the humble, honest-as-the-day-is-long farmer who claims to have been abucted by aliens based on his "experience? How about the guy who experienced going to Hell and back on the surgeon's table. How about my wife's experience of seeing her dead grandfather standing over the crib of my third daughter several years ago. It shook her up at the time, but she soon realized her mind helped her to see what she wanted to see. Experience is too subjective and you have not given me anything else to sink my teeth into.

I will ask again, What Scriptural basis do we have for saying demonic activity, is as it was in Jesus' time, has ceased or is still with us?

-- Anonymous, May 16, 2002

Scott, I will say there is not a scripture to say "OK you are always going to be bothered by demons so here is the way to get rid of them" No we have the given directive for example in Mark 16:16ff that basically points out that we have the authority through CHrist to cast out or drive out demons. What about in Acts 8, a passage of the expoits of Philip who drove out demons "with shrieks evil spirits came out of many" (8:7). It seems that there are over all directives seen through scripture to reveal our battle with the demonic such as Ephesians 6:11-12.

Primarily, scripture is silent in the OT about demonic works other than Gen, Job, and Isaiah description of Satan. But, the Gospels are full of demonic activity which Jesus dealt with wherever He went. Even though majority of the rest of the NT deals with false teachers, they reveal the secret nature of the works of evil. Paul acknowledged that work such with Ephesians or even by John in Revelation 12.

As far as my experience, I do not feel free to give all the details of the exorcisms. But many of the characteristics of demons in the NT gospels are the same. Primarily demons do not like to talk- for they expose their presence, they are not that stupid. Some may if they are more prideful.

Scott, you probably feel I am crazy. But, you must understand not every thing can be explained as a psychological problem. Could your wife's vision be real- It could be. I will not doubt the possiblity for your wife to either be comforted by the LORD or be tormented by a demon. I have talked to others who have had similar experiences. As Paul talked about the man who went to the third heaven- he would not dispute the matter. So I will not dispute others. But, I will say this often a demon will appear to people to haunt them. The Bible does say much about once we are dead, we are in His presence. In my encounters the ghosts are demonic appearances to either deceive or torment/intimidate others.

But to say such a vision is a psychological want or need is to me secularizing what goes on in the spiritual. Why is it that the world turns to psycics and those such as fortune tellers for their answers? Because they feel the church has no answers for their problems. Thus they turn to the occult. But we do have the answers, but we either refuse to give them or are not trianed to do so. A person in Satanism does not doubt the reality of what deomons can do- it is only in the church where we doubt. We are the ones who are supposed to have the knoweldge. I spent 50k in student loans in an RM Bible college for a BA and MA- but I did not have the answers nor were we taught them (concerning demonization). I never had a class on demonology or How to cast out demons 101. I had to learn through years of practical ministry and trial and error. Much of which the Holy Spirit will lead you and guide you.

-- Anonymous, May 16, 2002

Scott BTW demons do not have to fit their behavior solely in the NT confines. We are only given bits and pieces of some demonic activity not the whole. I'll phrase it this way, demon activity is not confined just to the NT pages- in the NT we are not given a manual on complete demonic characteristics or behavioral patterns.

-- Anonymous, May 16, 2002

AKelley,

First, I know what happened to my wife - and it has nothing to do with anything you are speaking of. But I knew when I typed it you would try to swing it over to your position.

Second, why do you, and others on this forum, assume it is doubt or fear that keeps people like myself from agreeing with you? Could it be your terrible theology? Yes. And this is where you lose me, and I'm sure several others here.

You make the claim that pagan religionists cast out demons. All I can say is, "Ain't gonna happen." Those that Paul calls anathema (Gal 1:6-8) are not the ones I will turn to for advice on casting out demons. Could it be that it's not so much doubt on my behalf as it is gullibility (or desire for it to be that way) on yours? I am not one to over-psychologise. But there is legitimacy to many uses of psychology. That is not secularizing, it's called being honest.

The OT is absolutely silent concerning the subject of demons except it mentions sacrificing to demons (and I am not including, as you did above, passages concerning Satan himself). All of a sudden in the NT there is an abundance of demonic activity. I see it mentioned a couple of times in Acts. I do not see that kind of thing today. Maybe I'm just an uninformed slob who needs to open his eyes, but nevertheless, I don't see it.

I hear tales of it, but usually from unreliable sources (such as charismatics and Catholics), and never with any evidence of the reality of their claims. Sorry, but I'm just not that gullible. You give me credible men or better yet, untwisted Scripture, and I'll stand right beside you. Until then.....

-- Anonymous, May 18, 2002

Untwisted was the wrong word for me to use above. AKelley has not twisted any Scripture, although most of the references he gave I believe he misapplied. For example, Paul's vision of the third heaven has nothing to do with demons, etc. AKelly, although I don't accept your view of things, as you have stated them, I do not want to misrepresent you nor do I mean to.

-- Anonymous, May 18, 2002

Hi Scott,

I also do not agree with some of the methodoligies AKelley has mentioned above, though I do believe there is a demonic presence today.

For a rational, biblical view, see Neil Anderson's books -- esp. The Bondage Breaker. Neil does not believe in "power encounters", but in "truth encounters". Since Satan is the father of lies and deception is his main tool, those who have been influenced by the demonic can be won over simply by the truth of God's Word. You can check out Neil's website at: Freedom In Christ if you're interested. I think Neil has a much better presentation and biblical understanding than Ben Alexander or Joe Beam.

-- Anonymous, May 18, 2002

Barry,

Thanks. I'm not denying demonic activity. I'd have to deny half of Scripture to do so. I just do not buy into AKelley's view of it. But to be honest, I'm not sure I can nail down any view with certainty. I do know this though, that when Apostles had trouble chasing away demons, there's no way simple religionists are going to. Let me put it this way, I'm not sure exactly what I believe, and I'm not so sure the Scripture gives us enough info to nail this down solidly. But I do know what I don't believe.

I'll check into the books you suggest.

-- Anonymous, May 18, 2002

To all In acts 16;16-18 we read of a woman possesed by a spirit of divination that Paul cast out in the name of Jesus Christ.He reconized the spirit and spoke to it and commanded it to leave and it left.Today the world has crept into the church and scientist explain every thing away so we don't believe in possesion any more.Another lie from satan to decieve the Church so we won't cast him out of our midst. All one has to do is read the paper or watch TV and see the same spirit,they call it fortune telling.I call it dial a witch,just like Saul did in 1st Samuel 28 when he consulted a woman with a familiar spirit to call up Samuel. We need to do more fasting and praying so we can hear what the Holy Ghost is saying so we can reconize what kind of spirit we are dealing with.Paul was a man given to much fasting often,the scripture tels us he is a rewarder to them who dilligently seek him we tie his hands by not being diligent. Ther are many with the same spirit today,on TV you can call dial a witch the same spirit that Paul dealt with.But we don't want to believe in such things we are to educated.Another lie from satan so he can decieve the church and rob us of the power of God.The church today don't want to believe in the power of God it seems that the church has become like what we read in 2nd Timothy 3:5 denying the power of God to deliver the ones possesed.If satan can get you to not believe that he can posses someone then you won't even try to deliver anyone,because "WE don't believe in possesion" Chuck Williams

-- Anonymous, May 18, 2002

Chuck,

To my knowledge, no one has denied anything. I have trouble accepting some things said on this thread, but since when is a request for the Word of God a denial of His power? The question in this thread, as far as I'm concerned, is in what way do demons work and what Scripture do we have to support it? I've reworded this question several times so far.

I would also state that honest questions are not a sign of doubt upon the integrity of God or His Word. This goes for AKelley, Barry, Danny, myself or anyone else. I disagree pretty strongly with a good bit of what AKelley has stated, but I do not question his sincerity, his commitment nor his motive, just the argument he makes is what I question.

If you look back thru the archives you'll see that I Barry and I have had some pretty healthy debates in the past, and I'm certain many more will come in the future. I may strongly disagree with his methods of doing things or presenting the Gospel, yet I do not question his motives. Besides, deep in his heart, he knows I'm right ;o)

So please, let's step down off of the soapbox and try to answer some honest questions.

-- Anonymous, May 19, 2002

Scott I was trying to give an example of how demons work by showing in scripture the one Paul delt with.Today we see the same demon at work in fortune tellers.Even some people who call themselves Christian's have called these dial a witch to get there fortune told. As far as casting out demons in scripture Paul did by the Name of Jesus Christ through Faith in that Name.The Name of Jesus Christ is more powerful than any demon,onlyby faith in that name can demons be cast out.I know that it was only one axample but how many do we need? I cannot find any where in scripture where it says demon possesion would cease or that we would stop casting them out in the Name of Jesus Christ.It is my fifm belief that alcoholism is not a sickness but it is some one who has yeilded themselves to a demon and he overcame them.We have prayed for many who got delivered,also once they have been delivered that demon will look for a new host if he finds none he will try to come back to the house that was emptied.If that person does not submit themselves to God and resist the devil he will enter again,and the last state will be worse than the fofmer.This is scriptural Mt 12:43-45 and Lk 11:24-26.Also in looking up this scripture in Luke Jesus taught on casting out demons in Luke 11:14-26 in verse 22 He said when one stronger is come upon him he will over power the demon.Did Jesus not tell us "behold I give you power over all the power of the enemy".So those of us that have been washed in the blood of the Lamb and filled with His Spirit have been given that power.

-- Anonymous, May 19, 2002

Why when I read Chuck's last post do I visions of Flip Wilson saying...."Da devil made me do it!!"

The demons of alcoholism?? Please....that's as bad as calling it "a disease."

How about alcoholism is falling to your own lusts!! That's Scriptural according to James 1.

-- Anonymous, May 19, 2002

Danny it is also scriptural that whoever you yeild yourself to that is who's servant you become.When you open the door to satan you become his servant,the servant is then controled by the master of that servant,Rom.6:16

-- Anonymous, May 19, 2002

A queston.

In Florida, 'bout half way between Orlando and Daytona is a small burg called Cassadega. It has become, over the years, a kind of "winter home" or retirement community for all sorts of witches, tarot card readers, crystal ball observers, etc., etc.

Can we, as Christians, just ride into Cassadega and command the demons at work there to be gone, as Paul did with the girl who had a demon, as mentioned above? If not, why not? And if we can, sign me up and I'll meet ya'll there this week sometime.

BTW -- I remember a TV interview made a number of years ago from a station in Orlando. The interview babe asked a number of the "working folks" frm Cassadega when they were the busiest. It was unanimous that the busiest day of the week was Sunday ... afternoons ... when "Christians" went to church in the morning, had lunch, then headed to Cassedaga to visit one of these fortune tellers to see about their future, or to talk to dear old departed Aunt Martha or Uncle George, or ???? How sad!

-- Anonymous, May 21, 2002

Darrell,

That is sad... but I guess I am not overly surprised.

-- Anonymous, May 21, 2002

As a young lad, I remember attending a national Christian Church/ Church of Christ convention in Monterrey, Mexico where I witnessed one of the most hideous sights I have ever had seen in my entire Christian life. This story is a bit long so please be patient with me.

At the height of the Charismatic and Neo-Pentecostal Movement in Latin America, (late 70's and early 80's) our Mexican churches were going trough a rather difficult time as a whole. Entire congregations were being assimilated into the neo-montanist camp and church families were being split right and left. One of the most promising churches in Gomez Palacio, Durango, gave in to ecstatic experiences of the "new apostles" of the "Spirit". This came as no surprise do to the fact that dozens of our own congregations in the US were also in a period of turmoil, as they still are even to this day. I suppose that one could safely say that more than a third of our US churches listed in the Directory of the Ministry could easily be classified as moderate Charismatic, at least in the sense that they hold an "open" position on the gifts of the Spirit.

My personal position at that point was a staunch McGarvian view similar the one held by a great many of my conservative brethren. Yet, my convictions were mere theory learned and defended my rote mostly. After all, I was young and had not submitted any of my ideas to the test of reality. I felt safe behind my artificial arguments that tried to either explain away the supernatural or rationalize it to death. But no one had prepared me for what I was about to experience during the following nights.

The entire scene felt like a prop from a horror movie. The main sessions were being held in the large meeting hall on the University Campus in Monterrey. Large colored glass windows flanked the right and left side of the auditorium, depicting Marxist themes related mostly to the downtrodden working class. That one evening towards the end of the convention was especially dark, rainy, and dreadful.

While the preacher (I remember Chano Moreno as the main speaker that night) tried as best he could to maintain the attention of his audience, the flashing light that bounced off those colored glass window panes do to the thunderstorm going outside, was a more of a distraction than the he could possibly compete with. There must have been over 500 or 600 gathered in the hall that night.

A couple of days earlier, we had gotten wind that a youth group from Culiacan, Sinaloa had brought a young girl with them whom they claimed was "possessed" (or at least obsessed) with demons. They said that they had taken her to the convention to get the top preachers to help her. Of course, this information traveled fast among the convention goers and everyone felt somewhat uneasy about the whole thing, including myself. After all, non one in our group had ever encountered such a case before, if in fact it was genuine.

I remember that every we had a Q & A session during any given one of the workshops, the subject would inevitably come up in discussion. Views similar to those already presented in this forum were presented and defended. Needless to say, the topic (as well as that of the gifts of the Spirit) were hot subjects.

Back to the night scene, I was trying as best I could to concentrate on what the speaker was saying but the distractions were legion (no pun intended). The lights in the auditorium kept flashing off and on, the torrential rain was causing flooding in the streets, and the flashing light of the thunder and lightning was enough to give anyone the proverbial goose bumps. Then, all of a sudden it happened.

Unknown to me, this girl from Culiacan was sitting just two rows directly behind of where I was sitting. As I recall, she let out a loud shrieking sound and dropped to the flour overcome by convulsions. As best they could, several people took her out into the foyer in order to avoid the unavoidable - distract the group. I tried as best I could keep my focus but more than a third of the congregation followed the group to "watch the show". I stayed inside.

Those who witnessed the whole ordeal spoke with me afterward and told me the same story. Once out in the foyer, the girl took on a supernatural force that not even several of the better built men were able to deal with. It took a tremendous amount of effort just to keep her from attacking those around her. The white of her eyes turned dark read and a low men's voice began speaking through her words of blasphemy. I could hear the commotion all the way into the main hall.

A well-known preacher by the name of Ernesto Fuentes was attempting to deliver this girl from the demon, but his efforts were totally useless. At one point, this girl pointed a finger straight into his face and with an angry look growled, "you hypocrite, you adulterer; who do you think you are? you have no power over me!" Ernesto was dumbfounded and knew not what to say, so he just stood there speechless. He would probably deny this today, but the dozens of witnesses that were there could testify otherwise.

After that, they took this girl to a local hospital for attention but the doctors wouldn't have anything to do with her suggesting that her problem was not of a medical nature.

For next couple of years or more, the church in Aguaruto, Culiacan fell under the burden of constant disruption by this demon-possessed girl and her family. Brother Dionicio Atondo (who had planted that church years before this case) had to travel 1000 miles from Mexicali to Culiacan in order to deal with the situation and teach the church. His solution may seem unorthodox to some of us (it does to me) but it seemed to work at least to some extent.

Atondo taught that, by praying in silence the Devil (who is not an omniscient nor omnipresent being) could not gain knowledge of what the believers were saying. Therefore, they could ask the Lord to deal with this evil spirit without giving away what they had prayed about. Well, he at least got them to pray and things seemed to quiet down for a while. To my knowledge, however, this girl was never fully delivered.

Now, I know that you can probably poke all the theological holes you want into this true story, but those of us who were there know beyond a shadow of a doubt that this was a genuine case of demon possession (I can't say the same thing about many of the modern "cases" of deliverance).

The fact that not even our top preachers could do absolutely nothing about it cast a long shadow of doubt on our sterile conservatism. This case, along with many other factors, was largely responsible for getting me ready for a short-lived personal incursion into the Charismatic Movement years later. Another element was a conversation I had with Don Buttler (former preacher from Yuma, AZ. and director of the Rancho de los Nińos children's home in Ensenada) who vehemently denied any modern cases of demon possession relying pretty much on the same argument that Scott has set forth in this forum already. His statements sounded as hollow to me than as Scott's statements sound to me know. To argue against any modern day existence of demon possession doesn't make them go away folk.

Once God mercifully delivered me from the Charismatic Movement in the mid 80's, I had another experience that was quite an eye opener. The unsaved girlfriend of a young man whom I had brought to Christ, had fallen ill with a huge tumor on the outside of her abdomen. The doctors said that there was nothing they could do for her as it had no "natural" explanation or medical cure. Convinced that she had come under a curse of some kind, she and her family wanted her to consult a local witch doctor in Guadalupe Valley.

Golfredo, the young man, pleaded with me to give him a ride out to see this person. At first I objected, but I finally decided to go with him all the time trusting in God for guidance. Knowing that I did not have any apostolic gift of "exorcism", I asked the group of brothers who were with me to pray for her, which we did fervently. After that, we left the scene to visit with the people at the orphanage nearby.

When we came back, we were all surprised to find this girl completely healed and rejoicing. I was concerned that she may have been deceived by the which doctor, but further testimony of those who where there with her confirmed otherwise. They said that as soon as her turn was up and she entered the room where this man was doing his thing, he looked straight into her eyes and said something like; "leave - you don't belong here". At that moment, she turned to leave and the tumor was gone. It so happened that at that precise moment, we had been praying for God the heal her and He did - no doubt about it. At that point all of us joined in to praise God for having manifested his mercy that day.

I don't always know why God allows certain things to happen and at other times he seems to be silent. All I know is the we live in a real world, with real people and a real Devil. But God is more real than anything that has ever existed and he is more powerful than all the evil in the world.

I hope that helps! Wishful thinking I suppose...

-- Anonymous, May 24, 2002

It is amazing that our movement is so afriad of the Pentecostals and charismatics that we try our hardest to deny what happens every day in our world we live in. Our fight is not against those who rely on the Holy Spirit but those unseen forces who curse Him.

I just had a tiring weekend where I was in a long deliverance session. Let me tell you a bit. A girl came to me, she was a believer (immersed), yet she was having problems. She began to had bad dreams, yet they were not dreams but more like memories. If fact theses visions of her past were strange to her, because she could not rememeber from age 10 to 0. Something was blocking her memory. As she told me her dreams, they appeared by all signs to be flashbacks. Weird things like being hung upside down as a little girl-while people in black robes marched around her chanting things she could not understand. Horrible things were done to her. Eventually we discovered she is a victim of SRA (Satanic Ritual Abuse) as a little girl. In the ceremonies she was married to Satan.

During deliverence we found out this girl was fragmented into many pieces (MPD or DID) to help her survive. The adult girl is saved and loves Jesus. But all the other pieces were not and very much bound by demons. During one session, a demon came forth and named itself as Baal. Then another Death, Sorcery, Torment, Torture. Some big name demons appeared such as Jezabel. Also Nebulous and Mecklazar (I do not know the origen of these names). THen we found a demon who named itself as Beelzebub- could this be the same as the lord of the flies? Could be since she was married to him as a girl. The sessions were intense to say the least. It seems the demons associated with sin will leave easily if a person renounces and repents of behavior. But, the demons associated with the occult are a bit stronger and need but prayer and fasting. Also, for a person to attempt deliverence it is wiser to have a team of intercessors (prayer warriors) to give you support. And above all you must rely on the power of the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:8).

In the end she is doing fine and trying to piece back her life- it is going to take several years for her to totally intergrate her personalities.

Currently, Satan's power is being loosened in the city in which I minister- we are going head on against the occult and against witches. BTW- weird as this sounds. Pray in your churches against any curse or spell that covens place on you, your family and the congregation. We found that in our city satanic groups and covens are going to each church during the night to curse them. Through the blood of Jesus you can break every curse! They hit our church usually between the hours of 12 to 1:30 AM. This is right before their meetings which generally start around 3:00 AM.

May the Lord bless you in your fight against the evil one. Also, whether you believe me or not is not the issue. It appears at least in this forum, that very little is being done in our movement in the area of deliverance- no wonder churches are splitting and fighting in record number in our movment. The enemy is trying to destroy our movement and in many places (the majority) he is winning. I hope and pray that the RM wakes up before it is too late.

-- Anonymous, May 24, 2002

Scott, anytime you want to see these things first hand- let me know.

-- Anonymous, May 24, 2002

AKelley,

While I do not judge your heart in these matters, your methodology of deliverance presents several serious problems in light of the Biblical data on spiritual warfare. It is evident that you have been deceived by modern day false prophets of deliverance. Allow me to address some of these central issues.

1. No where in the NT do we find the kind of detailed procedures you describe regarding your deliverance "ministry". Things like multiple deliverance sessions and so forth are totally foreign to Scripture and smack more of the Roman Catholic version of exorcism than anything we read in the NT. The apostles new nothing of "deliverance sessions", MPD or DID. This psycho-babble is what is being produced by integrationist psycho-heretics and neo-Montanist mystics but cannot be supported by God's Word.

2. No where in Scripture to we find demon's names directly associated with specific sins like "torture", "torment", etc. This pure fabrication on your part. Who are you going to trust on this? The demons or the Bible?

3. Since you admit that you do not have any apostolic gift of casting out demons, on what basis do you argue that those of us in the RM are amiss regarding so called modern day "deliverance ministry"? James says that the prayer of righteous man avails much, why do you minimize the power of simple prayer in favor a complex system of "deliverance" ministry?

4. I agree that Jesus said that certain kinds of demons require prayer and fasting in order to be cast out, but he never once gave us the kind of detailed methodology you seem to espouse.

I urge you to re-examine your so-called "deliverance" methodology in light of Scripture and submit yourself to the pure Word of God.

-- Anonymous, May 24, 2002

Philip, regardless of your reasoning - I am not blinded nor am I decieved. Your lack of expereince in this issue does not negate the fact that deliverances are real. MPD is real. SRA is real and goes on every day. Your response is typical in our movement. We often in the RM like to put our head in the sand.

Also, I never once stated if I have or have not a gift or anointing for this ministry. Perhaps, if I am involved in this ministry and I am casting out demons- pretty much everyday lately; would that tell you that the Lord has empowered me for that.

I have stated before in this forum my belief that the gifts of the Spirit never once ceased nor passed away. Regardless of my view or yours- if you want proof that such ministry goes on. I would offer two suggestions first ask the Lord to give you cases so you can encounter this ministry yourself. As with wisdom, I feel the Lord will give you a person to deal with who truly is demonized. Second, you are more than welcome to contact me via email and help me first hand in this ministry. Be prepared it is not for the faint hearted.

The way or methodology I conduct my ministry is not unbiblical or does not contradict the scripture. There are many things that the RM colleges and churches have refused to face- such as how to cast out demons and the fact we live in a real world filled with evil.

-- Anonymous, May 24, 2002

A Kelley,

Your flamboyant disdain and disregard for those of us who do involve ourselves in spiritual warfare on a daily basis in a very REAL way, is very typical for those who engage in modern “deliverance ministries”. You think you have a superior knowledge just because you have engaged in this non-Biblical methodology for any given length of time. If anything, it is deliverance gurus like yourself who need to be delivered from the spirits of pride, conceit, and anger towards those of us who have not been “blessed” with a similar cognition. I have dealt with types like you before and their spiritual pride is telling. I even encountered one guy who wanted to bribe my radio announcer to take me off the air because what I was saying didn’t jive with his ideas on “deliverance”. As to how “real” is MPD or SRA is debatable. In any case, you are using psycho-heretic terminology to refer to what appear to be cases of demon possession. That in itself speaks of your misplaced loyalties in relation with the Word of God. You have opened yourself up to the convoluted thinking of the integrationists’ mindset. As for hiding one’s head in the sand, that is pure incendiary rhetoric and you know that. At best it is a poor substitute for Biblical exegesis.

Since I assume that you do not have the apostolic gift of miracles (or casting out of demons), on what authority I pray do you base your sophisticated non-Biblical methodology on? All of you so called “deliverance ministers” remind of the sons of Sceva in the book of Acts who attempted to cast out the evil spirits on an unauthorized authority. God is most certainly not silent on this matter as attested to in the epistles of Judas and 1Peter and 2Peter. If you would have been empowered to cast out demons, I would expect you to do it in the exact same fashion as the apostles and Jesus did – namely to cast the evil spirit out instantly and permanently by the mere mention of the name of Jesus.

I notice that you admit to being a Charismatic. I should have known this to be the case in the first place but I wanted you to state it clearly for the benefit of all. There is a fatal flaw in Charismatic theology at its very core. If you believe in the continuance of the apostolic gifts, you will inevitably succumb to the heresy of modern- day prophets and apostles, as well as extra-biblical revelation. Since the Bible clearly contradicts this fallacy, I hold to the conviction that the apostolic or foundational gifts were never meant to be permanent in the Church throughout history, but were intended to cease as Paul clearly states.

You state “I have stated before in this forum my belief that the gifts of the Spirit never once ceased nor passed away. Regardless of my view or yours- if you want proof that such ministry goes on. I would offer two suggestions first ask the Lord to give you cases so you can encounter this ministry yourself. As with wisdom, I feel the Lord will give you a person to deal with who truly is demonized. Second, you are more than welcome to contact me via email and help me first hand in this ministry. Be prepared it is not for the faint hearted”

Sounds more like a threat to me than an invitation. It sounds like you really enjoy the attention you get by trumping your deliverance abilities for all to see. It’s just like those who like to let everyone know that they are fasting although Jesus specifically forbade such hypocrisy.

Your last statement:

“The way or methodology I conduct my ministry is not unbiblical or does not contradict the scripture. There are many things that the RM colleges and churches have refused to face- such as how to cast out demons and the fact we live in a real world filled with evil.”

Is nothing more than a childish circular argument. You have not proved your methodology to be Biblical so I maintain that it is unscriptural until proven different. I care not what RM colleges teach or don’t teach, -that is entirely beside the point. What does God’s Word in fact say? Furthermore, a lot of heresy and unbiblical teaching is readily abundant in most Christian schools today so I wouldn’t necessarily put any stock in what they teach anyway, unless they can support it from Scripture.

Fact is, you are a neo-Montanist whether you know it or not. You actually enjoy the notoriety of being admired as a “deliverance minister”. You pompous attitude is no different than that of Seminary professors who stand on the opposite end of the spectrum and deny the existence of the supernatural. May God have mercy on us all.

-- Anonymous, May 25, 2002

Phillip -- it is obvious you disagree with brother Kelly ... and that is fine. I have some real problems with some of his posts on this subject as well.

EVEN SO ...

His invitation to you (and he offered one to Scott, and I would guess to the rest of us as well) to participate in what he is speaking of was an invitation. I certainly couldn't see any hint of a "threat" in what he said ... just a warning for the faint hearted.

I also don't read his posts to be pompous. I am sorry you do. It is great to have a forum such as this to offer each of us an avenue to share ideas, beliefs, etc. Most of the folks who post here do so without name calling, or "reading into" other peoples posts.

You certainly have your own POV regarding any number of subects. That is great. Most of the time I enjoy reading your views, even if I don't agree 100% with what you may be saying. Try doing the same with other folks. Scott may disagree whole heartedly with brother Kelly on this matter, but his posts are civil in nature, and a joy to read.

I look forward to continued banter on this subject, and I look forward to learning more.

-- Anonymous, May 25, 2002

Darrell

Thank you for your complimentary comments. They are refreshing indeed. I deeply respect what you have to say and intend to correct my pointed rhetoric. If I have appeared to be uncivil to you, I sincerely apologize. I would also agree that Scott has been a true gentleman in his presentations for the most part.

Nevertheless, I believe that you are mistaken to suggest that I have read into Mr. Kelly’s post. On the contrary, I believe we haven’t even begun to consider all the overwhelming ramifications of his un- Scriptural doctrine of “deliverance”. For example, he states “Perhaps, if I am involved in this ministry and I am casting out demons- pretty much everyday lately; would that tell you that the Lord has empowered me for that.” Do you realize, Darrell, what this implies? If he is casting out demons every day that means that demon possession is commonplace where he works. Furthermore, why even stop there? The whole country must be demon-possessed and that would certainly include true born-again Bible-believing Christians. In fact, that is precisely what deliverance ministers preach and teach, namely than even true Spirit-filled believers can be “demonized” (which is the term they prefer using because in muddies the waters of clear Biblical thinking). Be prepared to deal with this teaching that true believers can be “demonized” as that is most certainly where this thread is leading to. Also get ready for some really bizarre explanations of how the Spirit and a demon can cohabitate in the same person. I could say a lot more on this subject but I will save it for later.

By using Mr. Kelly’s own pattern of reasoning, I could as easily suggest that you (Darrell) do not know what your talking about because you haven’t had experience dealing with deliverance ministers like I have; but that would be disrespectful and unkind to do so. However, how is it that when Mr. Kelly does it to me it’s quite OK? Somehow, we have a double standard going on hear.

-- Anonymous, May 25, 2002

Philip -- sorry -- I wasn't stating that anyting anyone did was okay ... just pointing out we all need to be careful how we word things in the forum.

And I certainly agree that "experience" cannot be held over biblical teaching ... if that were the case, then we would have no biblical say-so over the Mormons, or many others involved in "experience" based cults

Brother Kelly ... I am in no way comparing your experiences to those of the Mormon followers, so please don't think that of my post.

I DO have some real problems with anyone who believes a Christian can be possessed. In another thread, it reads something like "Can a real Christians be possessed"? Biblically speaking, of course, there is no such thing as a "real" Christian ... you either are, or you aren't, though I am fairly sure I understand the reasoning behind the use of that term.

-- Anonymous, May 26, 2002