I have been very nervous about posting about this to the list about our current goat situation, but as I'd like to consider all considerate opinions from all you experienced and educated goat folks, here's the situation:

I purchased a seemingly healthy 24 month old Saanen/Nubian X doe from a goat dairy nearby. I did not ask about CL. That was very dumb on my part, and I've been beating my self up for the last 5 days, (I haven't slept since last Thursday...). We've had the doe for 5 weeks and have been drinking the milk, mostly raw. She had 2 small bumps under her chin when we bought her and the dairywoman said they were probably from splinters. I didn't question it. Last Thursday, one of the bumps came to a quick head and burst before I realized what was happening. I found it slightly open and some thick pus showing. I put on gloves, got the betadine cleaned the abscessed area and flushed it out, both that morning and then again in the evening. She has been isolated ever since, but I don't know how much contact our other yearling doe had with her before I found the open abscess, so I assume the yearling has been exposed (she's dry).

So, the options we consider at this time are what? I talked with 3 vets and the woman at the dairy (who has a license to sell raw milk!) and she downplayed the seriousness (all the info In found on the internet made me very scared of this disease!), as did the veterinarian I spoke with from Cornell. The vet at Cornell said ALWAYS pasteurize, and the woman at the dairy as much as said it was okay to drink the raw milk from an infected goat.

We can a) cull her (really goes against my nature -- we only want a few goats for family milk and meat and had planned to use A.I. since we don't want to cart goats all over creation for breeding purposes.... but I know this is a decision a farmer/homesteader has to face); b) sell her at the auction barn and make her someone else's problem (not a real or fair option); c) build a second goat barn on the other side of the property and firmly establish a clean and a dirty flock, and be rabid about sanitation and wait for the infected doe and the exposed doe to die or get to a point where they need to be put down for humane reasons.... d)????

Words of wisdom and experience are greatly appreciated. Please don't yell at me... I've done that enough for all combined....

Thanks.

-- Andrea, Big Flats NY (andreagee@aol.com), April 15, 2002

Answers

Paging Vicki......Miss Vicki, you're wanted on the Countryside Forum....and after you help Andrea tell me what the heck my goat's hooves are doing....

-- gita (gita@directcon.net), April 15, 2002.

I can't answer your questions, but I can tell you how sorry I am that you're having to go through this. Don't beat yourself up, yes it is rough but you didn't know the goat was infected so you're not to blame. That woman who sold it sounds like a winner though, it makes you wonder how many others she's shipped off to new homes with abcesses. Take care of yourself and good luck on making any decisions regarding your doe.

-- Kathy (beckoningwinds@yahoo.com), April 15, 2002.

Andrea, sorry for you troubles.........been there and done that (not drink the raw milk thing.....the RN in me was just too paranoid of disease!!!)

Have you considered feeding sea kelp free choice?? I know that people poo-poo it, but I swear that when I started feeding it to the doe that showed up with the abcesses, she never had another one. I do pasturize all milk for my kids and that doe has died many years ago, but I still feed kelp and I have never had another abcess on any goat on the place and they are in the same barnyard where she was.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), April 15, 2002.

Here is a post from Vicki from 2 April 2002 perhaps the information will be of use, I'm sure Vicki will have more to add when she posts:

Hi Gita, perhaps you can go and visit the thread we talked to Susan about this? goatworld.com has a good photo of what a CL abscess looks like, and also information on it on http://www.ag.auburn.edu/dept/ads/sheep/ The National Goat Handbook and 50 more informative sites have links on this site, in the NGH is another link to the information on CL. Yes it could be from a tooth, yes it could be from a sticker, I certainly wouldn't be taking a chance with my herd, quaranteen her, have the vet aspirate the contents out and send it to UC Davis (only) and find out what you are dealing with! Can you send a digital photo? Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (Nubians) (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), April 02, 2002

-- BC (desertdweller44@yahoo.com), April 15, 2002.

I won't fuss at you Andrea. You are doing the best you can with what you know. The decision to keep her or cull is entirely yours. There are several threads on this forum from the past few yrs that mention and discuss CL. You are off to a good strat by contacting Cornell. See if you can talk to Dr. Mary Smith there, she is a goat vet and specialist. You won't know exactly for sure if the lumps were CL or not unless you test. You mentioned under the chin, can you describe the location a little more specifically?

I would personally sell her specifically for slaughter, but then not all places will accept goats with CL, you don't want someone else buying this goat and then coming back on you for it later. Protect yourself. I'd say put her down, instead of slaughter. You can choose to manage it the method you are thinking of, but CL as I mentioned earlier gives me the shivers.

First test and see if she has CL, then take it from there.

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), April 15, 2002.

I don't claim to know squat about goats, but I looked up CLA and it said the pus was a green color. Was you goat's? Do you vaccinate your goats for it? Just trying to help.

-- Gayle in KY (gayleannesmith@yahoo.com), April 15, 2002.

I don't claim to know squat about goats, but I looked up CLA and it said the pus was a green color. Was your goat's? Do you vaccinate your goats for it? Just trying to help.

-- Gayle in KY (gayleannesmith@yahoo.com), April 15, 2002.

oops! Don't ask me what happened...

-- Gayle in KY (gayleannesmith@yahoo.com), April 15, 2002.

Hi Andrea, remember that as of right now unless you didn't write a thorough post, you still do not know that she has CL. Under the chin is not a lymph gland, just like if you were checking your child for swollen lymph glads, when they say they have a sore throat, that is where the lymph glands start.

Secondly you can't diagnos CL from what the ooze looks like, a fresh abscess that is burst because of a doe scratching it, will be not as gross or green, more cottage cheesey :) And older abscess may be nearly dried out and the classic onion skinned look like you could peel many many layers out of it before you get to the cottage cheese. IF she has CL than she has already infected anything the exude touched which means the feeder or fence post, or wall of the barn, or fellow herdmate she rubbed this abscess on to burst it. So quaranteening her isn't necessary at this point. I would blood test the whole herd, only using UC Davis. Quaranteen and culling is the routine, if she has abscess in her lungs she is also coughing this on her herdmates, in her udder and its in the milk, in her bladder and its in her pee. Blood test, and then hand the results to the dairy who should be very interested to know that their doe is either clean, a staph abscess, or CL positive. Only after you know can you begin to make any decisions. You might want to simply use these goats you have now as brood does, clean this barn thoroughly, let it rest and glean clean kids off of these which you have raised heat treated and pasturised. Good luck with this. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), April 15, 2002.

Hey, Andrea. I empathize. I just had a huge weight lifted off my shoulders by having my LaMancha doe's bloodwork done. Like you, I didn't know what CL was when I bought her. She had 2 lumps when I first met her, didn't think anything of it. The owner said it was "some kind of infection". Bought her as a pet & have had her 5 years and now have 21 other goats as I got into raising colored Angoras. Subsequently, have read a LOT more about goats & their health since then. Thinking back, I went, "uh-oh". So, over these 5 years she's had maybe 2 episodes of lumps, both just went away. Last fall she developed one on her neck, stayed the same for 3 months. I discussed it with a vet; he said it was PROBABLY (key word) a staph infection, the way it acted.. but I needed to have her tested for sure. Put it off... put it off... (think YOU feel stupid??). While moving my household in January, I casually noticed that it had burst. Once again, I went, "uh-oh... well, that's it. There goes my whole goat operation". However, after the dust settled from the move, I did have her tested and the anxiety was KILLING ME!!! After 2 weeks I dropped by and asked about the results. The office gal casually went over to the desk. "Ah yes, here it is... not sure if I know how to read it..." c'mon, c'MON... it can only go two ways.... "Looks like it says negative." I nearly scared everyone in the office with my rebel yell! It's good to be able to breath again! Hot diggidy, I can sell goats with a clear conscience!

Andrea, isolate her and have her tested; it's not expensive but it will be the best insurance policy you'll have for the future. And, I wish you good luck. You are not the only one out there that feels like a total dufus! debra in nm

-- debra in nm (goatgirl@unm.edu), April 16, 2002.