need ideas on causes of deaths.Lost 2 3week old bottle calfs,1 10 day old goat kid,1 3 day old goat kid,1 2week old goat kid, 1 week old kid,all in the past 3mos.All but last death were on calf formula,vet ruled a poisen in the formula,after that last death.(guessing)This last kid was raised on goat milk..no formula.All had similair symptons,normal until last 24 hours,then scours but acting ok until 3 hours prior to death.Now am wondering if it's something in the water,last kid just started getting water,also,female owner just lost a 6week along pregnancy,for no apparent reason,all but last goat kid was in the house,last one was in for last day.Am posting this last one,since we know it could not be the calf formula.There has to be a tie somewhere,symptons were too similair.Am thinking to have water and soil tested,but what in the house could be poisenous?Any other ideas out there?Tubed last kid with baking soda to nutralize any poisens,before sending to the vet,but am sure it ended up dying,awfully far gone.Thanks for ideas guys!(this young couple are having horrid luck this year!!)

-- Michelle (davmic25 @hotmail.com), April 04, 2002

Answers

As a general rule, goat kids should never be raised on calf formula. Not sure what the cause of the deaths is though.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), April 04, 2002.

I am certainly not an expert, but I agree with you, the very next thing you need to do is test your water supply and the soil. Sounds too fishy to ignore! Best of luck, and let us know what you find out...

-- K Phillips (Philli@Peoplepc.com), April 04, 2002.

So they have no other stock, just buying infants to raise? I would bet that either they are purchasing kids and calves who are receiving no colostrum, or sadly they simply don't know what they are doing. Just with the phrase "they tubed the last kid with baking sodda to nutralize any poisons" baking soda wouldn't do anything for poison. This high of mortality in young stock is usually management. Couldn't be a disease process, except perhaps ecoli, which yes could be in their water, because of the age of the dead kids, but with ecoli you have horrid smelling poop. Even blaming soy milk replacer on all the first deaths, loosing a week old kid on goats milk, makes no sense. I would bet if you really looked into this and how they were taking care of these infants, you would find another common thread. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (Nubians) (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), April 05, 2002.

Your vet could do a necropsy (autopsy) to determine the cause of death, see what was in their stomachs, look at the organs, test the blood, etc. I don't know how much they charge to do this but it wouldn't hurt to ask. Sorry for all the trouble, hope you figure it out.

-- Jeff (lorianandjeff@aol.com), April 05, 2002.

If the owner also aborted her pregnancy, any chance some type of toxins or whatever people can get from stray cats, or even house cats etc? Don't have any idea how that would related to the animals, unless you had a bred one abort. Might want to look at the water if they were on a replacer formula.

-- Leslie (sundaycreek@gnrac.net), April 05, 2002.

Could it be all these animals came from the same livestock auction/sale barn? I was wondering if they picked up something in the soil,atmosphere before arriving on their farm. I've never experienced anything like this, but the folks we bought this from bought all their animals at a sale barn, out of over 60 calves & goats bought they only were able to save 5, most were over 6 days old when bought so the colostrum issue is unknown. It turned out that most who bought animals from that sale barn were having a hard time keeping the animals alive. I don't know if they ever found out why they were dying, just knew it appeared to be something that started at the barn. It's just a thought, maybe they should check with other buyers if they are buying from one particular livestock place, see if others are having higher than normal mortality. Michelle, I would suggest not bringing anymore animals onto the same land until you find out if it's something in your'e soil,water,etc. It is so heartbreaking to lose an animal plus expensive. Good Luck & let us know what you find out.

-- Kathy (beckoningwinds@yahoo.com), April 05, 2002.

Without a whole lot more info about where the young came from, exactly how they were kept, and without the symptoms of how they got sick in the first place we can make a lot of guesses. Water isn't as likely to be the culprit if your drinking it and not getting sick, soil is pretty remote on young animals too. Improper mixing of formular can be a big problem on it's own, no colostrum early enough, salmonella, Ecoli, you need to give more details for even a half close guess. I get suspicious deaths posted (autopsied) by the vet, not to find out why it died but to find out why the next one will get sick. Poisonous milk formula???????? Was it moldy???? They don't all have to be related deaths either; toxoplasmosis can be a problem with pregnancies and is present in fecal matter, but it isn't a prime suspect in the young stock's deaths. Sorry to hear of so many problems but a few more details might jog lose a better answer.

-- Ross (amulet@istar.ca), April 05, 2002.

If most came from sale its probally lack of colestruem .

-- Patty Gamble (fodfarms@slic.com), April 05, 2002.

Michelle, Could it be a colostrial disease? This bacteria is in the soil, calves or kids eat the soil and become infected. Our calves died within a few hours, bleeding internally. Only symptoms were a stomach ache.If you opened them up the bowels were a bloody mess. We started giving antitoxin and haven't lost another yet.(Knock on wood) Hope this helps

-- Joni (jjdenton@st-tel.net), April 05, 2002.

All but one,that died,were purchased at an early age at the same auction,so don't know colostrum intake.One was born at their farm,was weak at birth and house raised calf formula after getting moms colostrum.They have had other does raise their kids okay this year.But they also had 2 does kid with dead kids,1 kid with weak kids.They do have a cat in the house!After vet said it was the formula they didn't get another until they could feed goat milk,fealt safe with that.That last one came from same auction as a day old..maybe no colostrum?They all seemed fine until last few hours,the scours were not foul smelling,just plain yellow scours.I am not sure of all their technics to raising,i do know they said last one was getting 8oz. goat milk 2xday,seems rather scant for an alpine kid,but had access to hay.I know,it would not be eating hay at that age!!I wonder if they were very inconsistant with amounts and feeding times? They always call me when it is already near death,i am at a loss as to what is going on,and suggested they have this last one posted,and NOT to bring another one in until they figure out WHAT is going on! Her husband is thinking the water,cuz of her loosing her baby also.But the other animals are drinking the same water,no deaths out of the live born kids being mother raised..so.Could simple scours cause dehydration and death in less than 12 hours in all of these age groups?Seems awful quick to me.I do know last one had free run of the barn,but was awfully young.Will let you know what autopsy shows.Thanks for helping out.Also,none of them had overeating shots,but were not bloated prior to death,i think death from entertoxemia causes bloating in final stages,(?)Sure feel at a loss to helping them!!

-- Michelle (davmic25 @hotmail.com), April 05, 2002.

Most of the time miscarriages are for no reason that you can put your finger on, something went wrong somewhere, and you never know. I've miscarried at least five times myself, and there were never any really good clues why some pregnancies went without a hitch, and some ended this way. As to the cat, the important thing for her is that she not be the one to change the litter box during pregnancies. As awful as it is for all these things to happen at once, I would doubt very much that the miscarriage is related.

-- mary (mlg@mlg.com), April 05, 2002.

If they are giving them free run of the barn perhaps they need to make sure they are not getting into something. An old fertilizer bag could eaisly kill them if they are licking something off of it. I also, would advise them not to add additional animals until they find out what is going on. Any other symptoms besides the scours prior to death? Cocci can kill pretty fast also as can entro.

-- Leslie (sundaycreek@gnrac.net), April 05, 2002.

8 oz of goat milk 2x a day? Sounds like the kid died of starvation. I have 2 orphan lambs a week old, getting bottles 5-6 times a day , 12 ounces each. Hay at that age is of no nutritional benefit.

-- Kate in New York (Kate@sheepyvalley.com), April 06, 2002.