Sorry, guess I've got brain damage from lack of sleep, waiting for kids, but sent hubby in for some Ivermectin injectable to worm the does after they kid. One one post, I believe Patty stated she uses it orally, not injected. The vet about had a fit, told DH that you can't use it that way!! Now, I'm going with your experience, DO I inject it or not? I've tried using Safeguard and Panacur as some here do, and feel at least the buck needs to be wormed with something more effective. Can someone walk me through "Worming Goats for Dummies" please? Have 4 pregnant does, due any second, one buck and one little doeling, born January 5th. The vet also said he didn't recommend using CPMK for calcium treatment, as "goats get abcesses from injections too often". Didn't want to give us Epinepherine, as "If you don't have it drawn up and ready immediately when you have a problem, the goat will die instantly" Is he just a pessimist, or what?? Not the usual "goat and sheep" vet at that clinic, so had to make do with what he would prescribe. He gave DH what I sent him in for, but thought we were nuts. Opinions?? Thanks, Jan

-- Jan in CO (Janice12@aol.com), March 13, 2002

Answers

I use the injectable orally all the time. Never had a problem!

-- Wendy (weiskids@yahoo.com), March 13, 2002.

I've always given it sub Q. Getting anything like that down my goats mouths is such a hassle compared to sticking them with a needle, and this way I know it is actually in there.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), March 14, 2002.

Jan, when I first wormed my goats, I used the Ivomectrin SQ. They SCREAMED! It HURT A LOT, evidently! Then, I discovered that because the metabolism in a goat is so fast, the Ivomectrin won't stay in the system long enough to do the job if you inject it. I have used it orally ever since, and my Nubian has almost forgiven me now. Besides, VICKIELONESOMEDOE says to do it, and she's ALWAYS right.

-- Judy in IN (whileaway3@cs.com), March 14, 2002.

Thanks, everyone. Being a "newbie" to goats, it's hard to know what's good advice and what isn't! Even harder to find a vet who knows what they are talking about. This one had to go look in a book for the recommended dosages, etc. He cautioned about using the ivermectin on pregnant goats, telling my husband it would surely make them abort. I appreciate the input, and thank you all! (No kids yet, but the girls are HUGE) Jan

-- Jan in Co (Janice12@aol.com), March 14, 2002.

Thanks everyone. Being a "newbie" to goats, it's hard to know what's good advice and what isn't! Even harder to find a vet who knows what they are talking about. This one had to go look in a book for the recommended dosages, etc. He cautioned about using the ivermectin on pregnant goats, telling my husband it would surely make them abort. I appreciate the input, and thank you all! (No kids yet, but the girls are HUGE) Jan

-- Jan in Co (Janice12@aol.com), March 14, 2002.

Geeze Judy :)

Jan the only opinon I have is to get another vet, or at least see if he would like to perhaps continue his education? All wormers are given orally to goats unless you are going after specific problems. Texas A&M has really good information he could get about worming. And ditch your vet for a good jeffers catalog 1800-jeffers or jefferslivestock.com and buy your own epinepherine! You would want the CMPK gel to give orally unless your goat is so far gone she can't swollow then yes you have to give it subq. Honestly if you every get to the point you have to give shots of calcium you should be at the vet so he can monitor her heart rate, to much calcium to quickly can cause them to arrest. Well......................that is if he knows what the heart rate on a goat is :) Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), March 14, 2002.

I'm probably just being overly cautious, but I'll get the CMPK gel too. None of mine seem to be having problems, so far, I just wanted to be prepared, as I live a long ways out from town, and if problems happen on a weekend, forget it! The regular "goat/sheep" vet at that clinic is a woman, and was on vacation or something, so this goofball was covering, and didn't know much! Now, on using the ivermectin orally, do they accept it alright? (I have visions of a goat spitting it back at me!) I'm so glad for all of you, and for Marilyn and Mary who help me through all my crisis! Keep those kids coming! Thanks again, Jan

-- Jan in Co (Janice12@aol.com), March 14, 2002.

The problem with vets who don't see a lot of goats is they tend to go strictly by book learning. Since I'm sure the literature says to use Ivermectin as injectably-only, in their minds an oral application is a cardinal sin. I tend to bank more on the advice of goat keepers who've had tons of experience in this department. I've heard too many horror stories from bad vet recommendations. They don't think too much "out of the box." Another thing - I'm sure there's a lot of "You lay people are NOT vets" arrogance going on in their heads. Afterall, we don't have a license to practice vet medicine!

-- Lynn (moonspinner@bluefrognet.net), March 14, 2002.

Yrs ago when we started in goats it was suggested we give ivomec orally because it stings like heck. so we give it orally. I recently learned that if you slap the area before injecting you confuse the nerves so the goat doesn't feel the sting.

I agree, hard to find a good goat vet.

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), March 14, 2002.

This vet sounds like he has real issues with owners doing their own vetting. I have worked for some who were very helpful to breeders, some who HATED breeders and absolutely refused to work with them, claiming the breeders were taking their business away and taking food off their (the vet's)table. I also agree that most vets don't have a clue about goat medicine. May I make a suggestion? This may have already been done somewhere, but can we get a comprehensive worming/vaccination schedule, complete with brand names, dosages, etc. All on one page, in one place. I find myself having to search all over the place to find what I want, and feel like I'm missing something or not getting the big picture.

-- melina b. (goatgalmjb1@hotmail.com), March 15, 2002.

I use the ivermectin injectible on our horses and goats....just did the goat that kidded, and it is easy.

Just syringe the ivermectin over a cup or so of sweet feed and let them eat it. That is what my friend in vet school recommeneded, and not one of them (not even the goat) has turned it down.

-- Tracy (zebella@mindspring.com), March 15, 2002.

Oooooooo.k. I'm really wondering about this?

I have certainly heard of using Ivomec inj. orally, but we always just injected it. As someone stated above, drenching can be a bit tricky, at times. ;)

The statement that it may be more effective orally because of metabolism...is this true? Any additional input on this?

You know, before I "knew better" I gave it (ivomec) to the milkers right after they kidded, the milk went back to the kids for quite awhile anyway (months), and home use wasn't an issue at that time. As there is no stated withdrawal, this was not the greatest idea. I know I know. :) Haven't done that for years, not since we started raising the kids on Jersey milk and selling the higher priced goat milk.

But, this year is different for a multitude of reasons, suffice it to say, things got a little away from us last fall and through the winter...ugh. Late kids, which I hate, etc. etc. I don't have a microscope...or I'd do a fecal, but I "know" the girls are probably wormy, and I like worming "well" after they kid. I've GOT ivomec+, so I REALLY would like to use it. Would it be ok orally? If you HAD to guess (I realize that's exactly what it would be) how long would you think pulling milk (?), again, this year milk isn't an issue...I can wait, at this point I want the girls in tip top condition. They have been wormed with panacur a couple of times...last fall, and this spring (I treat for three days), but I'm sure that isn't cutting it.

If you strongly recommend against the ivomec, I'll listen, but like I said...things are pretty tight and I have alot of the + on hand. :)

Thanks in advance!

-- Patty (SycamoreHollow1@aol.com), May 13, 2002.

Patty you certainly don't have to take our word for the Ivermectin injection vs oral debate. Texas A&M has lots of info out as do most teaching universities about the use of all wormers orally, whether they are for drenching, injecting or now pouring on. It slows down the amount of time it is in the goat so it works better. The next time you purchase your Ivermectin, unless you specifically need the liver fluke control just purchase that plain Ivermectin instead of the Plus. The plus is harder on the girls liver (according to my vet ;) Milk withdrawal is another of those guessing games, never have I seen a real study where they monitored, some folks say 10 days some folks say a month, even Goat Medicine is way up their on withdrawal. On a Valbazen milk study we sent in, it was the carrier found in the milk not the benzasole anyway, but Ivermectin does bind in the fat and that is why their is a milk (butter fat) and meat withdrawal with it that has to be longer. Even having said that, in the olden days of Ivermectin being the New wormer (I started in goats when TBZ was the wormer of choice :) we injected it, and used the milk even selling the milk after 48 hours! So at least do 10 milkings, I would think that even the poorest of milkers could flush the wormer out of her milk in that long.

Remember that Ivermectin is a clear wormer so you will want to use a white wormer, especially on growing kids at least once in the year for tapes. But now that you have switched to Ivermectin stay with it for a season or two. Being up north your spring worming will be the most important. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), May 14, 2002.