I feel like I'm a position of knowing just enough to make me really dangerous! My kindergoat doe is FINALLY kidding. She lost her cervical plug this morning at about 10:30. Since then, she has lost a bit more plug, but nothing else has visibly happened.

When I got home from church and she was losing her plug I was all excited that birth was imminent and when nothing happened in an hour, I did an internal exam. She was dilated only the size of a golf ball, so I backed off thinking I was premature. Then I emailed a friend who sent back the information that cervical plugs can be lost quite a bit before the real event and that a doe can lose cervical plug material up to 5 times. So, I stopped worrying and sat back. At about 2:30 I decided to do a little more research and found a site that talked about ringwomb just enough to make me nervous but not enough to give me any actual information. The same site stated that delivery should occur within 1-6 hours from the time the doe lost her cervical plug. So, at 3 I decided maybe I should check to see if she had progressed at all and did another quick internal. Her cervix was not open any more, but seemed different. When a goat cervix dilates, does it thin like a human one does? If so, that's probably what the difference was.

Well, I decided at this point to call my vet (which they always appreciate on Sunday afternoons, I'm sure). He said that since she was not pushing yet that she just wasn't ready yet. I did talk to a breeder from Massachusetts on Goat 911 and she said that it sounded like ringwomb to her and that the doe would have to have a c-section.

So, here's the rub...am I really micromanaging this labor too much and should I leave the poor girl to set her own pace? Or am I worried rightfully. This is the doe's second kidding. The last time she kidded while I ran in to eat my dinner, so this is taking A LOT longer.

Sheryl in ME

-- Sheryl in ME (radams@sacoriver.net), March 10, 2002

Answers

Take a deep breathe....and exhale !!! You will be fine. I have goats that lose their "plug" days for kidding. If she is comfortable you should be too. And since she has kidded before and seemed to have no problems I wouldn't worry. Do you have a couple of good goat books to help you through andy problems ?? I have never given a goat an "internal" exam before kidding. After kidding and during yes when the little kids seemed to be tangled up together and I needed to undo them but only did that quickly and left her deliver fine after that. Go into the house, have a cup of coffee and probably when you go back out to the barn the stork will have arrived !! Good Luck !!

-- Helena (windyacs@npacc.net), March 10, 2002.

Sheryl, what is the state of her ligaments, the ones that rub from the rump's midline to the pinbones? Are they soft or seem to be missing? What about her udders, is it full and tight? I have never had a doe dilate unless she was in labor. I have had does that actually had feet protruding, and then sucked them back in and stopped laboring because they were disturbed. If you are certain that she was dilated, I would say she is in labor, the mucus can fool you but the dilation should not. Could you feel a bubble through the part of the cervix that was dilated?

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), March 10, 2002.

Rebekah, not only could I feel the bubble, I could even feel a little hoof inside that bubble! I could see labor contractions rolling across her side when she was laying down. She has been up and down and pawing and nesty since yesterday afternoon.

Helena, I had to laugh when I read your response! When my husband gets upset I'm always telling him to breathe through his nose so he won't hyperventilate!!! The doe is not in any major distress, but I wouldn't call her comfortable. However, in her same position a few years ago I didn't call me comfortable and I spit out my kids perfectly well so I suppose she will also! However, if I go into the house and have one more cup of tea, I'll probably burst...I've actually been trying to follow your advise all day!

-- Sheryl in Me (radams@sacoriver.net), March 10, 2002.

In that case, if it were my doe, I would go back in, with short fingernails, plenty of lubricant (I use olive oil) on clean hands, and go to work. If the doe labors too long without success, the cervix will begin to close again. I would gently massage the center of the cervix and try to get it to dilate again, and if you can feel a hoof, see if you can feel two and a nose, is the kid in the right position? If the kid is in the right position, I'd gently pull it towards the cervix, assuming it has dilated somewhat, but you don't want to break the bubble until she has opened up some more. Just gently run your finger around the margin of the cervix, don't apply too much pressure, just a little, firm but not forceful. She will not like this! You will have to tie her into a corner or restrain her. Another thing that will help is to strip the plugs out of each teat, this will stimulate labor. If she doesn't dilate, don't try to pull the kids through the partly dilated cervix, she may need to go to a vet. The part about her not being in labor unless she is actively pushing is baloney. One of the symptoms of milk fever is that the doe doesn't progress in her labor, they can be in labor and just don't push or contract.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), March 10, 2002.

Rebekah, the first time I did the internal, I did what you suggested. I ran my fingers around the cervix gently. Does a goat cervix thin like a human cervix does as labor progresses? I don't want to be too invasive here but I don't want to lose the doe either. I have also already milked her out a little bit to try and stimulate oxytocin production. Why do they always do this on weekends and holidays?!

-- Sheryl in Me (radams@sacoriver.net), March 10, 2002.

I have had true ringwomb with sheep last year, her water bag came out but couldn't get your hands in at all. Took her to the vet, never could get her to dialate. I don't think you have because you have been inside and even felt the hoof. In true ringwomb I couldn't have gotton that far down and I have small hands. Now, last week, my ewe lost her water and it took us two hours inside to get the lambs out. 'Generally" and I mean only generally when the water bag is leaking that implies a problem with the position of births not that the cervix will not dialate. Good Luck. Let us Know.

-- debbie (bwolcott@cwis.net), March 10, 2002.

Debbie, thanks for that response. She hasn't produced any of the bubble outside the cervix yet so maybe she's just progressing slowly. Her water hasn't broken yet, she has just been producing a lot of mucus so far. She seems to me to be getting tired so I'm going to give her some warm molasses water. She's not eating any hay or grain, but she was quite interested in eating the apple I took her. Incidentally, I took the advice of someone on here who suggested setting up crossties in a corner of the birthing stall so I was ready with that. Well, I'd better go get my dinner...I think I may need my energy tonight also!

-- Sheryl in ME (radams@sacoriver.net), March 10, 2002.

Hi Sherly, I will add this to the private email. She can't be tiring from labor if she isn't pushing! I agree with Debbie, you would have lots of fluid from labor through the opening cervic with no kids presented in ring womb. She would be pushing against a closed cervic, then you would reach in and find that the cervic is only open a little, but the fluid, slime etc. would go through. She is tired because it is night! And she wants you to go to bed so she can have these kids without you bugging her! :)

I actaully think it is very good practice to know what a closed, now open cervic feels like. And like I wrote to you earlier yes the cervic thins like in a woman, so much so that once she delivers you can't feel the rings in it. I do think you a rushing things, but then you know your doe better than us. If you become distressed, or you can tell your doe is truly having a problem than manually open the cervic by applying pressure to open it, around and around, you fingers instereted into the cervic with pressure on the neck of the uterus will cause her to bare down. With all the horror stories going on this year, weak labor, no labor, two monsters born in our area, and we had a huge 14 pound buckling born the other night that had to be taken out in pieces to be delivered because of a horrid presentation, even though the doe was 4! I would be gunshy also! Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), March 10, 2002.

Off! What a night. Well, she had triplets with the last one born dead and appeared to have been dead for a few days. I suspect that's what was holding up the works. I checked on her several times but didn't bug her too much. She finally popped them out after I had given up and gone in for a little shut-eye. I went back out to the barn between the birth of the dead kid and the passing of the afterbirth. The live kids (they were all does, by the way) were chilled and had to be warmed up and have a little colostrum put into their bellies, sweatshirts put on, and returned to Mom. She wanted nothing to do with them, so I put them in a dog crate in her pen and they went to sleep. I gave her a penicillin shot (as a preventative since I did 2 internals, although I'm not sure if that's necessary), a vitamin B shot and some warm water with molasses, and I put a blanket on her. I'll go out after this post and see how everyone's doing, feed some more colostrum and milk out the doe. I also have to bury the dead kid. :( Oh well, such is life.

-- Sheryl in ME (radams@sacoriver.net), March 11, 2002.

Sorry about the lost kid. Hope the other 2 & Mom are OK. Glad your ordeal is over for you.

-- Stormy in SC (tstorm@prtcnet.com), March 12, 2002.

Actually I could learn a little from you. I tend to go in to fast and probably make more of a mess out of things. Good Luck, Debbie

-- debbie (bwolcott@cwis.net), March 12, 2002.

Well, mother and daughters are doing quite well now. The doe was begging me to let her out with the other does by this afternoon, but I figure an extra day of R & R won't hurt. Now there's one more to go at the end of the week and I go back to work full-time tomorrow so I have hit instant insanity here. Life's like that!

-- Sheryl in Me (radams@sacoriver.net), March 12, 2002.