Okay -- this is an "extension" of the two-services / contemporary service thread.

I have noted that many congregations, especially over the past 20 years or so, have made the Sunday morning (and now Saturday evening) worship service the primary tool to be used in reaching the lost. Because of that, changes have been made (be they good, bad or indifferent) to what was traditionally the "layout" of the Sunday service ... and style of music is the least of these changes.

There are a few (imho thankfully only a few) congregations who have moved the Lord's Supper out of the service and into a side room, so that those who attend on Sunday and are Christians can partake of the communion without having it served throughout the congregation, where there are people who don't have a clue what it is all about.

The message being preached many times has moved from being a tight, exegetical study of a passage of Scripture to something more akin to pop psychology, feel-good type stuff that is provided at a "seeker" level.

With the question raised, "Can a non-Christian or a seeker truly worship God through song?" some congregations have changed their praise and worship to only a couple of songs (be they hymns, contemporary music or ???).

Many congregations who have moved to using the "regular" service as an outreach tool then hold a time of praise, worship, and Bible study/sermon to, say, Wednesday evening or another time, since committed Christians will come out more than just once a week.

So .. after all that ... what IS the purpose of our "weekly" gathering, be it Saturday evening or Sunday morning? Is it (biblically) to reach the lost and be a tool for evangelism, or should it be more for the edification of the saints?

Me thinks if our people (i.e. Christians) would be doing the evangelizing they should be doing at work, home, schools, neighborhoods, etc., then they would be bringing folks into the services who have been witnessed to, and then the edification could take place.

If we are going to continue to use the "main" service to evangelize, then how do we reach out to seekers, non-Christians, and Christians of varying maturity through the praise and worship and preaching?

-- Anonymous, February 19, 2002

Answers

Darrell,

I think Paul has something to say about this:

(1 Corinthians 14:21-25) In the Law it is written: "Through men of strange tongues and through the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people, but even then they will not listen to me," says the Lord. {22} Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers. {23} So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? {24} But if an unbeliever or someone who does not understand comes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all, {25} and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare. So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, "God is really among you!"

Paul very clearly shows that the worship service was to be used as an evangelistic tool. In this case, the use of tongues would cause the seeker to turn away, but prophecy would cause them to repent before God. There is no doubt that Paul is talking about a worship context here.

Of course, seekers can, and should, be led to the Lord outside of the worship service also. The service is also supposed to be used as a time to edify the saints. I do not see this as either/or but both/and. There is no reason why a worship service cannot minister to both seekers and saints.

-- Anonymous, February 19, 2002

Darrell....

I can only speak from my experience.

As you know....I have always preached with an emphasis on those who are already Christians...i.e., the edification of the saints.

I have done this for basically three reasons: 1) It is Scriptural. 2) It is historical...from a 1st century sense...and a RM sense. A. Campbell thought it extremely ridiculous that most of the denoms. of his day preached the same salvation message over and over again to the saints every Sunday. 3) It is a sure fire way to see some growth in people as they are fed the word of God.

It has worked for me....as I have enjoyed good growth in my previous 3 ministries. It is working tremendously well here in my current ministry where we have had 87% growth in the last three years.

My experience....(underscore my experience)....is that non- Christians....or those looking for a church....come looking for something. And when the Word....is proclaimed forceably....it accomplishes what it says it is...."power"...Greek word "dunamis"....and it "divides the heart"....Hebrews.

Now that being said....I kind of like the "Seeker Service" mentality that some churches have.....where one service is SPECIFICALLY...to introduce people to the basics of the gospel and answer biblically some of the basic questions of life. In fact...this is the only context in which I have a "good conscience" about a Saturday evening service. I would not even serve communion at such....because that is not what it is designed for. It is a "seeker service." Some congregations I have heard of.....have it on Wed. night. Not a bad idea.

In in my humble opinion....we starve our people if they are not fed something greater than "the milk" of the Word on Sundays. I think the purpose of our Sunday worship should be....education....motivation....and edification.

Does that make sense?

-- Anonymous, February 19, 2002

The question still remains, how to reach out to both? Personally, I enjoy a deep sermon, which will really make me think and challenge me. But most sermons like that would be over the head of non- Christians or even those who are seeking, and might (MIGHT) turn them off to returning.

Of course, that's why preachers get paid the 'big bucks" in order to do just that ... reach all the people, no matter their maturity level. :)

-- Anonymous, February 19, 2002

Yes Danny that does make sense, and it might be the way to go. I don't think we will see a shift culturally that will make the seekers "seek out" on other times than Sunday AM or maybe Saturday PM. That being the case, we have to work extra hard at those times to reach out to those who are seeking, as well as feed those who are Christians. Hopefully those who are Christians are mature enough to find other avenues of "advanced study" such as home study groups, small groups, etc.

-- Anonymous, February 19, 2002

HERE'S SOME FOOD FOR THOUGHT!

CHARISMATIC CHURCH WORHIPPING TO VAN HALEN ROCK SONG. Friday Church News Notes, March 1, 2002 (David W. Cloud, Fundamental Baptist Information Service, P.O. Box 610368, Port Huron, MI 48061, 866-295-4143, fbns@wayoflife.org) This month I received the following note from a professor at Southern Baptist Seminary: "A couple of my students recently attended Rod Parsley's church in Columbus, Ohio, on a Sunday morning. They said that the call to worship was a tape playing, over and over several times, Van Halen's 'Jump!' Every time David Lee Roth sang, 'Jump' the people all jumped. My students remained in their seats, and summarily were the recipients of lots of glares from the crowd." In an interview in 1978, David Lee Roth boasted, "We celebrate all the sex and violence of television" (Circus, Oct. 17, 1978, p. 39). In the Friday Church News Notes for February 15, we described how that some Charismatics are using Beatles songs in worship. In fact, in one case, they are performing "I Wanna Hold Your Hand" as if God is singing that rock song to His people. When the walls of separation are broken down between the things of Christ and the world, there is no end to the weirdness and blasphemy that results.

-- Anonymous, March 02, 2002

Phillip,

That is the exact point Danny & I were trying to make in the other thread concerning music. All music is written for a specfic purpose - whether that purpose be like what you had posted or even if only to make money off of it. I think it behooves us to be mindful of that original purpose and reconsider what "levels" we cross just to get people through the doors.

One other thing to consider on the topic of music.........I think most here (especially those with a music background) would agree that music originates deeper than from just the hand & the mouth and it penetrates much further than the ears. Music exists as a window to the soul, on the part of the writer, the performer, & the listener. And to use a previous example from that other thread, if I hear "Christian" lyrics applied to a previously known song like "Highway to Hell".....what picture is going to pop up into my mind FIRST?? It won't be Jesus on the cross - it'll be what I have already been accustomed to seeing with those chords....dark, gothic, & nasty.

Obviously....not good for worship.

-- Anonymous, March 03, 2002

And yet -- how many of the timeless hymns we now sing came from just that kind of beginning? Good old Irish, German and English drinking songs, where the music was used (since so many of the people knew the songs) with new lyrics written.

Did those folks have the kind of problems mentioned above? Maybe so, and yet those songs became, as i said before, timeless.

It may not be our cup of tea, so-to-speak, but it may just reach someone that we can't.

My neice worked for some time in the five Corners area of Atlanta, with the "throw away" kids ... runaways and childred kicked out of their parents homes. Skaters, punks, and more. Their music was "out therre" to say the least, and the Christina bands that ministered to those children were "out there" as well. I found that I couldn't worshhip with that hard style of music, but who am I to say the children used to that music couldn't? They did, and any number of children were reached for the Lord.

-- Anonymous, March 04, 2002

Darrell.....You wrote.."And yet -- how many of the timeless hymns we now sing came from just that kind of beginning? Good old Irish, German and English drinking songs, where the music was used (since so many of the people knew the songs) with new lyrics written."

And how many people are alive today....who would remember that?? And just how many songs are we talking about?? All of them?? Hardly.

At one point does "conversion" take place??? Just how far are our worship services stooping under the guise of "evangelism??

Pretty low. One of our churches.....in a 75 mile radius from me....actually had "bingo" brought up at their last board meeting as a form of outreach to the older people.

Why not man!! It's all for Jesus!!! Win the lost!!

Fortunately.....after much discussion (they actually discussed it)....the idea was tabled.

Where do we go next??

-- Anonymous, March 04, 2002

Ditto to what Danny said.

Darrell........not to say that the "throwaways" you mentioned aren't on the right track - but I would be real interested in seeing where they are 5 & 10 years from now. Was this type of "worship" benefical in the long run, or was it merely a temporary diversion from their current circumstances.............in essense, one type of "drug" replacing another type of drug? (And music is a "mind altering drug" of sorts - notice that historically, just about all types of destructive & abusive behaviors are accompanied by certain types of music........sort of a rallying cry.)

Like Ross P. used to say.....the proof is in the pudding! And since this raucus style of "Christian" music has been around for a number of years - most all of the pudding I've come into contact with hasn't had much "TRUTH" in its list of ingredients.

Sure there are exceptions, but typically I have found that more are permanently won by the rule, not the exception.

-- Anonymous, March 04, 2002

Mark,

I'd be interested in what "pudding proof" you have that people that are won to Christ at churches that use hymns have a stronger faith, etc...than those that are won at churches that use punk, ska, reggae, or other types of non-traditional church music???

-- Anonymous, March 04, 2002

Well Barry.....

Look at the age of the "average" church goer and also those just in your own personal experience that you consider to be people who are well-founded in the Faith.

I have found much fewer "Dedicated" Christians younger than my generation (sub 40's) than I have amongst the ones older than my generation. Sure, there is some wisdom that comes with age.........but dedication is based on much deeper things and can occur at ANY age. And in my experience, people I've talked to and had to deal with, have proven over & over again that "shallow" worship, based on "shallow" principles (specific music or programs) - produces shallow "Christians". And typically (not always) the bombastic music churches have people that feel great at the end of service - but don't know an ounce of Bible.

Such feelings are worthless! Jesus didn't come to make us feel good! He came to seek & save the lost. He came to defeat the works of Satan. He came to bring a sword into our midst. He came to judge the world in Righteousness.

ANYTHING (music, programs, personalities, prejudices, etc) that water downs or prevents this truth from being spread must be avoided at all costs - as it is counter-productive to the mission of Christ.

Music is a much more powerful tool than many people believe it to be - and like ANY power tool......one must use great care while handling it!

-- Anonymous, March 04, 2002

Well Mark,

It sounds like you're basing everything you believe on ancedotal evidence. I have found the exact opposite to be true. If you have any hard facts, please post them. Until then, I think you're simply posting your own subjective opinion, just like I am.

-- Anonymous, March 04, 2002

Danny -- my point was that the people around WHEN the songs were written would have to work through the problems that Mark mentioned, and I agreed with him, but saw that it did work out.

Mark -- would the people who sang the "drinking song" hymns when the were written less likely to "stick with it" like you believe those who listen to the rock music today might be less likely to stick with it? I don't know the answer to that. With regards to the folks my cousin worked with, those in the bands have been ministering their way for any number of years now, so yes, they've stuck with it. She has mentioned that others have been coming to the services, making decisions for Christ, and serving the Kingdom for at least the five years she worked with them ... how long after that, I can't answer.

-- Anonymous, March 04, 2002

Barry,

You're right. My comments are very subjective - based upon both personal preferences and personal observation. Really, since there are no clear "thus saith the Lords", what else is there to go by?

I may be making a mountain out of a molehill on this because of personal experience. Maybe I'm just a wimp because I am extremely susceptible to musical influences (just don't call me that to my face when my muzzleloader is close by :~) ). But I realize the power music can have due to my earlier experiences in the area of musical performance and that makes me very leary of what I use for specific purposes - especially where it concerns the teaching of the Faith.

-- Anonymous, March 04, 2002

Mark,

We definitely agree on one thing -- music does have a powerful influence on people.

Please don't think that my defense of much of today's modern Christian music is an acceptance of all of it. Some of it is horrible, just as some of the old music is horrible (I'm talking about lyrics).

-- Anonymous, March 04, 2002

I can agree with that, Barry.

I definitely like a lot of the new choruses, while others I loath due to either the false doctrines in them or due to the raucousness of them.. Likewise they are many old hymns I love and others I refuse to sing....again because of their false doctrines or even their tonality.

I see the old adage, "moderation in all things", as being very appropriate when it comes to our worship music. I personally prefer a blended platform - Such gives everyone a shot at being comfortable with some of what is being sung, plus it slowly teaches new "favorites" that will come to the forefront of their thinking somewhere down the line.

-- Anonymous, March 05, 2002

Somewhat off-topic, but ...

The year I was at Pacific Christian College, our basketball team was doing really well. A bunch of us who were in band in high school decided to get together and form a pep band for their games. But we had no music. So we got out the old "standard hymns" hymnal (I forget the full name of it, but its the old red one everyone uses) and found the oldest, driest "funeral dirges" we could find, that no one ever sang anymore and so probably wouldn't recognize ... and played them dixieland style! :-) Everyone was wondering what this great music was we had come up with, and then we'd show them the hymnal and it would be something like "bringing in the sheaves" played in cut time.

Oh, for those crazy days of college again. Too much fun. :)

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2002