We have started doing or own fecals and have a question.I noticed on some fecals I did yesterday that along with the eggs there was a red worm. I think it must be a Barberpole worm (Haemonchus).We were wondering if this good or bad, to see adult worm in the fecal? This is the first time that I have noticed a adult usually we just see eggs. Thanks. Jack Murdock MO.

-- Jack Murdock MO. (jrm@salemnet.com), February 18, 2002

Answers

Could you share with us how and what you need to do your own fecals. I'm interested as I have dogs and goats. I am getting a high quality microscope later this year for our homeschool, what else would I need?

-- Anita in NC (anitaholton@mindspring.com), February 18, 2002.

Good Morning: Any worms or eggs are BAD NEWS. You should worm now and recheck the fecals in a couple of weeks.

For the person asking how to do a fecal test: You will need a microscope and some fecal floatation solution (this is a saturated salt water solution) Take a couple of poop pills and mash them up in something like a 35 mm film container or old pill container then add the flotation solution and stir it well. the container must be filled to the top so that a slide will fit over it and contact the liquid. after the solution sits for 5 minuits take the slide off and look under the microscope to see if any eggs are present. My Vet says ONE egg is TO MANY and keeping up a good worming program will pay for its self in goat health. Trust this has helped answer the question.

God Bless.

C & C (Charles & Celia)

C & C Boer Goats Santa Fe Tx and Stilwell Ok

-- Charles Steen (xbeeman412@aol.com), February 18, 2002.

I probably didn't make the question clear.What I was wondering is if seeing the adult worm meant that they were being expelled. Would this be a good sign that the wormer is working? Thanks. Jack Murdock

-- Jack Murdock MO. (jrm@salemnet.com), February 18, 2002.

Yes Jack, good that they are being expelled. I would recheck later. Charles, if everyone wormed until there were no worms and no eggs, I am not sure that would be a good thing. IMHO the overuse of wormers is why we are finding more and more resistance. The trick is to prevent worm overload, not achieve worm free status.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), February 18, 2002.

"My Vet says ONE egg is TO MANY and keeping up a good worming program will pay for its self in goat health"............ .................................................

All goats have worm and cocci in their systems. If your goal is to have a sterilized system, then worm with any eggs or worms you see, you are actually harming the animal and just making super worms who are resistant to everything. I have already talked with Jack about this, but buy a McMasters chambered slide, this allows you to count eggs, and only accpet info on fecal from your vet with a counted slide. http://www.advancedequine.com/veterinary/mcmaster.html

I know that each area of the country is different but here we worm only if the fecal count is 2000 eggs per gram fall and winter, but in the spring and summer, out worst worm time, we worm if the numbers get above 200 eggs per gram. Fecaling on a normal slide will tell you "yes or no" what you have but certainly not how bad it is, which is really no answer at all.

On saanendoah.com she has info on learning to do your own fecals with links to sites that show what you are looking at. Karen Christensen has some of her great line drawings up.

Jack, honestly not a clue. Adult worms are rarely killed by wormers, they simply abandon ship, waiting to be reingested. Put an email out to Sue Reith on the saanendoah.com site. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), February 18, 2002.

Anita,

Here are a couple of sites on doing fecals: This link, Fecal Culture and Pictures, http://www.lasvegas-dog.com/worms.html, site has microscope pictures. This fecal culturing, eggs of nematodes , http://www.missouri.edu/~vmicrorc/Lab/Culture.htm, site has three authoritative links: Georgi, Parasitology for Veterinarians , 6 th ed. (1995), Dunn, Veterinary Helminthology , 2 nd ed. (1978), and Levine, Nematode Parasites of Domestic Animals and Man , (1980).

-- BC (desertdweller44@yahoo.com), February 18, 2002.

I guess I am still a little confused.I undertand the reasons we need to worm but I haven't got a clear picture in my mind what really happens when we do worm. Does the chemical kill the eggs and/or does it kill the adult?The info I find on internet does not explain this.My vet told me the eggs are not killed by the wormer.Which if he is correct would mean that the adults were either killed or expelled. Maybe that's it.Vicki mentioned that the adults were not killed but expelled. Just wondering. Jack

-- Jack Murdock MO. (jrm@salemnet.com), February 18, 2002.

Perhaps this link may be able to answer your question: Wormers, http://www.attra.org/attra-pub/livestockipm.html “There are three main classes of wormers—the benzimidazoles, such as fenbendazole or Safeguard ™ (white); the imidazothiazoles, such as levamisole (yellow); and the avermectins, of which ivermectin (clear) is a member.

It is critical to reworm three weeks later, especially with newly weaned animals. This kills those worms that were ingested and matured following the initial deworming. This has been shown to significantly reduce pasture contamination. Strategic deworming is discussed in detail in the article "Alternative Approaches to Managing Small Ruminant Gastrointestinal Nematode Parasites" listed in Suggested Reading.

All the dead worms, with very viable eggs in them, will be passed to contaminate the pasture. Instead, deworm, hold animals in their same location for 12-24 hours, and then move them to a clean pasture. Appropriate management minimizes re-infection.

Getting rid of all worms all the time is not essential for the health of the animal, is rarely cost effective and can actually be detrimental since the immune system of the animal is an important defense mechanism in managing parasite effects.”

-- BC (desertdweller44@yahoo.com), February 18, 2002.

In the parisitology classes I have taken a great many of the worms abandon ship. The "mother" worms are actually able to put their babies asleep (arrested development) in the goat. These eggs are the ones that overwinter in your goat, to multiply in huge numbers during times of stress, or at kidding time. The problem with pasture rotation is unless it contains a down time of heavy freeze or multi species (for goats cattle are great) vacuming up the worms and eggs that float to the top of the grass with rain, moving pastures here in the south every few months isn't doing anything. Worms can live under small particles of sand even in the heavy heat we have here, we have frost but not true freeze so we don't kill worms in the fields this way either, and the worst are those who worm and then allow their does access to their barns, the worms love to live all winter up under the bedding! The reason you see so few eggs after worming is the abandon ship and kill. We are lucky in that our pastures are mostly browse and worms can't crawl, or float up with the rain into the brush, so some of our pens are very worm free. And Jack honestly other than tape segments that were specifically showed to me, and slides premade by the paristologist, I have never seen an adult worm on a normal fecal. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), February 19, 2002.