To summarize my previous threads:

We had two babies born about two weeks ago that were about four pounds each (my understanding is that most baby goats are about eight pounds each). They were alive, but barely moved. Three days later they were dead.

Querying many sources, we got the idea that a lack of selenium in the mother during pregnancy was most likely the problem.

We had avoided selenium because we had mixed information. Some people said you had to have it. Some people said they could see no difference - so they don't bother. Some people said you should use it only if you are drinking the milk, otherwise the milk tastes funny. We were attempting to be the least intrusive and the most organic with all of the animals. We were wrong.

Note that we were feeding the goats loose salt with selenium in it. We had also fed some help to the animals periodically which is apparently very rich in selenium. Some people told us this was no enough, and I now beleive that they are correct.

We bought selenium shots and gave all the animals except the chickens shots. We're going to offer more kelp to the chickens.

One day later, another goat had two babies. They had lots of energy at first, but never enough to stand. At two minutes old, they would try to stand, but never did. When they got to be an hour old, they were still breathing, but did not even have the energy to raise their heads. We gave them selenium shots, nutra drench, called a half dozen "goat people" .... We brought them into the house and wrapped them in towels to keep them warm. We decided to spend the money on going to the vets. The vet pointed out that their body temperature was so low that he didn't have a thermometer to measure their temp. Putting them on a heating pad warmed them up.

After getting home, we took their temp regularly and force fed them.

Once or twice a day we would take them out to visit with mom. This REALLY perked them up! With a little help, they would stand for a while on their own and wag their little tails. But they would start to get cold.

After four days, one died. The other came close.

Now the last baby goat is a week old, stands on his own, walks and sometimes tries to jump. We leave him out all night and all day and he is holding his own, normal goat temperature (about 102). I would call him "nearly cured" of "white muscle disease" (white muscle disease is the result of low selenium in unborn animals and can sometimes be reversed).

The moral of the story: Selenium is required if you plan on having your animals reproduce. It is possible that after years of injections, the food/hay produced on your land may contain enough selenium so that you might be able to reduce the selenium dose or eliminate the injections all together. This is from selenium rich animals pooping and peeing on the land.

You don't "have" to bother with selenium shots if, for example, you are keeping goats strictly for clearing brush and do not plan on having them reproduce.

The flavor of the milk from cows and milking goats can be "off" without selenium. I think I remember reading somewhere that the taste of the meat could be off too (but I may be mistaken on that).

I have heard that general health of some animals improved dramatically by not only giving the animals selenium shots, but by testing their blood for selenium content and properly adjusting the amount in the selenium injections.

As if this all is not coplicated enough: selenium supplementation is only for areas that are seriously defecient in selenium. Some areas of the world have plenty of selenium, some even have too much. There is a fine line between selenium deficiency and toxicity. It can be very difficult to get just the right amount. This drives home the point that some animals survive in the wild only in certain parts of the world. The breeds of goats that we keep would not survive here without human intervention. But some animals in my area (deer, coyotes, etc.) have adapted to the lack of selenium.

I hope that by posting this here, some people might not have to experience what my family did. I also hope, that some people with greater expertise can perhaps fill in some gaps and double check to see if anything I have said is not correct.

-- Paul Wheaton (paul@javaranch.com), February 09, 2002

Answers

Paul, I have given Bo-Se injections to weak kids due to low selenium levels and it brought them right out of it. Only had the experience with neighbors who were raising Boer and percentage Boers for the first time. But it might be worth a try if you have not already done so. Tube feeding them warm colostrum and putting a blow dryer on them to warm them and dry the fur works for me. There is some recipe for a jump start that includes molasses and and coffee, but have not tried it and there are more ingredients. Perhaps another reader would have the whole recipe. It is so sad to try so hard and loose babies. It happens in raising any livestock what you will loose them and usually the ones you like the best. Good luck.

-- Karen Mauk (kansashobbit@yahoo.com), February 09, 2002.

Hopefully we'll be better prepared for the next batch and shouldn't have any troubles with selenium again.

There is another thing I should point out in the "lessons learned" department: feeding alfalfa to goats. I was against it because when I grew up on a cattle ranch, I saw too many dead steers that had bloated on a 50/50 mix of alfalfa hay and grass hay.

My more recent research shows that pregnant/nursing/milking does can be okay oξԏŠšΤž“™ž“™žΤ—ž†ΡΤΤ«—ššΤ–ŒΤŒ‹–““ΤžΤ–Œ”Ԑ™Τ“ž‹ΪͼԝŠ‹Τ–‹ΤΪΟ»ΪΟΎ–ŒΤŒ’ž““ΡΤΤ·ˆš‰šΪͼԈ–‘‹š–‘˜Τš˜‘ž‘‹Τ˜ž‹ŒΤ‘Τ•ŠŒ‹Τ˜žŒŒΤ—ž†Τž‘›ΤΪΟ»ΪΟΎ˜ž–‘Τ’ž†ΤšΤžΤ“š’ΡΤΤΈž‹ŒΤ‘šš›Τ‘‹Τ•ŠŒ‹Τ‹š–‘ΪͼԝŠ‹Τ‹—šΤΪΟ»ΪΟΎŒ‹š’’–‘šŒŒΤ™Τž“™ž“™žΤ—ž†Τ–ŒΤ˜›Τ™Τ‹—š’Τ‹ΡΤΤΎΤ—–˜—ΤŽŠž“–‹†Τ˜žŒŒΤΪΟ»ΪΟΎ—ž†Τ’–˜—‹ΤšΤžŒΤ˜›ΤžŒΤžΤΤŽŠž“–‹†Τž“™ž“™žΡΤΤΪΟ»ΪΟΎΪΟ»ΪΟΎΆΤ‘šš›Τ‹Τ›Τ’šΤšŒšžœ—Ԑ‘Τž“™ž“™žΤž‘›Τ˜ž‹Τ‘Š‹–‹–‘ž“ΤΪΟ»ΪΟΎšŽŠ–š’š‘‹ŒΪͼԝŠ‹Τ™Τ‘ˆΪͼԈšΪΝȍšΤŒ‹ž‹–‘˜Τ‹Τˆ”ΤžΤ“–‹‹“šΤ–‹Τ™ΤΪΟ»ΪΟAalfalfa in to what the goats eat. Future pregnant/nursing goats will probably get a 50/50 mix of alfalfa hay and grass hay. Other goats will get 10% alfalfa.

(yes, I'm still worried about bloat!)

-- Paul Wheaton (paul@javaranch.com), February 09, 2002.

Paul I not an authority on goat raising, but I've noticed that about 8 weeks before kidding my goats start getting an increased appitite and 6 weeks before kidding I gradually change the the hay from rolls of pasutre to straight alfalfa.I also increase their grain .They always have access to mineral salt for goats.I had one pygmy goat a few years ago that constantly cried for more grain and I was afraid if I let her have too much , she'd get bloat.Her kids were born skinny and one didn't make it.I now feed the goats as much grain as they want 6 weeks before kidding time and haven't had problems with does giving birth.I live on steep land and the goats walk alot up and down hills and probably burn more energy with the added weight of kids inside them.Therefore they may need more grain then is suggested , then a goat that's on flat land and is in a confined area that doesn't allow for lots of exercise.

-- SM Steve (notrealmeal@msn.com), February 09, 2002.

Hmmm...Paul all we feed our goats and sheep (other than grain I mean) is alfalfa, and I feed them all they want of it. We've done this for 3 years now with no problems at all.

-- CJ (cjtinkle@getgoin.net), February 09, 2002.

Well like I said in the first post to you, get blood work done. Selinium can be a problem (and no amount of years of poop is going to correct it, at least not in our lifetime) but I'll still wager a blood test will show a lack of copper. So if you want to double check get the blood work done and know.

-- Ross (amulet@istar.ca), February 09, 2002.

Is it just my puter or does Pauls post have a core of puter symbols about 12 lines deep?

-- mitch hearn (moopups@citlink.net), February 09, 2002.

It is not just selenium you have to worry about - copper, vitamin B12 and iodine deficiency will all result in poor kid survival - some infectious diseases may also look like what you have seen.

Did you get any blood testing done?

if not I strongly suggest you do some blood testing of your animals. Know your problem (don't guess!) and put a preventative medicine/supplementation program in place. Selenium deficient areas need ongoing fertiliser or animal supplementation.

-- Cowvet (cowvet_nz@hotmail.com), February 09, 2002.

Goats are naturally browsers - they are used to a varied diet containing all sorts of "herbs and spices" in the wild. As soon as we intensively farm and animal and restrict the variation of the diet we are bound to run into mineral nutrition problems.

I doubt those in the wild are "adapted to deficiency" - it is more likely that their diet is still varied enough to provide everything they need.

-- Cowvet (cowvet_nz@hotmail.com), February 09, 2002.

We have raised Pygmy goats for about 12 years. Selenium is very important for healthy animals. It will increase productivity & easier kiddings. We live in a deficent area, we have selenium added to our feed, provide it in free choice minerals & vaccinate. If you have kids that are very cold at birth a good way to warm them quickly inside & out is to put them in a sink tub of body temperature water( keep heads up!), our vet told us this & it really works. Then we keep them in a box with heating pad, unless they are good & strong back to mom they go. Hope this helps.

-- Gail Brinkley (dinsmore@qtm.net), February 09, 2002.

Hi Paul, sounds like you are on the right track. If I can add something to your post, selenium injections are very low in E. You may want to have your grain mix supplemented with additional E, and you need to supplement with selenium, not just give shots. Shots give you a boost quickly, for pre breeding and pre kidding, but a diet with very low levels of E and then just the two shots a year is likely not to give you the results you want. I would also ditch the salt. Loose minerals are much more important, and if your goats are eating salt also, they may be eating less of the loose minerals. We use a good loose cattle mineral, we have to keep our ppm of copper in the mineral over 1000 and want our copper in the grain at the max they allow. Did you know water troughs made of the galvanised metal are coated in zinc, they can bind the copper absorption of your goats. Use plastic. If you have high amounts of molybellium in your pasture, same thing. Sulfur in your water, same thing. One bloodline amongst all the other goats in my herd is given 1/2 a copasure bolus/capsule for calves twice a year. Regular supplementation cured the rest. Use the death of the next older goat on your place for a liver sample. It is the only way to know what is really going on with copper on your place. In goats blood samples for copper tell you nothing. Selenium levels can be found in a blood test and ask about the E. I would bet you could fine tune your feeding program and fix the majority of your problems. You wouldn't even have pregnant goats if the selenium problem at your place was as bad as you think. Bucks would have no sperm and your does would not cycle. You do get pregnancies, just weak kids, selenium yes, but also E, copper and a bad diet to the moms will do this. Remember that the babies grow from the size of jumbo shrimp to 8 pounds in just the last 50 days, you can't do that on poor quality hay and a pellet and salt. If the does are on good pasture when they become pregnant then move into the barn for winter, kidding on poor hay, you get the idea. Scan your feed tag, scan your mineral tag, this is my favorite subject, nutrition. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), February 09, 2002.

I agree with Vickie. When I was reading your posts previously I got the distinct feeling you may have been underfeeding your does. Pregnant animals needs LOTS of groceries, and the only time in all the years of raising goats that I had similar troubles were when I was an inexperienced raiser of Nigerian Dwarfs and didnt get the moms enough feed. Never had a problem after that. Goats (or cows or sheep) will not likely bloat on a reasonable amount of grain as long as the amount is increased gradually. A dairy goat can easily assimilate a couple pounds a day, even twice a day, depending on how close to kidding she is, quality of hay, etc. She should be allowed free choice good quality hay, and mine always contained half legume, half grass. A hungry doe cannot be expected to grow strong babies and sustain herself too.

You have my sympathies, Paul, I know how heartbreaking it is to lose those babies.

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), February 09, 2002.