Twice in the last month I have been admonished to make a biblical stand againt the lottery and gambling.

OK....no problem.....give me the Scriptures to stand on.....because neither Preacher did so.

Back in 1997 or '98 I recommitted myself to the principle of "Where the Scriptures speak, we speak....and where they are silent...we are silent."

With that in mind....I have found myself "making stands"....on a whole lot fewer issues and I have found myself more in line with Campbell's admonition to not make anything a test of fellowship that Scripture does not clearly enjoin as such.

Do I play the lottery?? Nope. It's poor stewardship.

However.....upon what basis do I preach against it???

-- Anonymous, February 08, 2002

Answers

We might preach against the foolishness of messing with the lottery ... and we are told not to be fools. We can certainly show how it is not the best stewardship. But of course, there is no thus saith the Lord about the lottery, bingo, etc., etc.

-- Anonymous, February 09, 2002

So Darrell.....while I agree with you....would you agree that Campbell....WOULD NOT.....make it a test of fellowship....because it is not clearly enjoined in Scripture??

-- Anonymous, February 09, 2002

What about speeding? Would you disfellowship unrepentant speeders because of the verse that says to obey those in authority?

-- Anonymous, February 10, 2002

Danny --

A Campbell certainly would not have made it a test of fellowship ... heck, he didn't make the owning of slaves a test of fellowship either, even though he was against it.

My opinion -- he would have been opposed to the lottery on any number of levels, and might have brought it up via the pulpit, and certainly via the pen, but would have left it in the realm of "Where the Bible is silent ..."

-- Anonymous, February 10, 2002

Duane -- As a rule, we don't disfellowship people for ANY sin, no matter what that sin might be. There might be some exceptions, but most congregations don't ant to fool with it anymore.

-- Anonymous, February 10, 2002

I didn't ask what "we" would do. He's currently barred from the Forum.

:)

What would you do? What sins would YOU consider a basis for disfellowship? Just those explicitly condemned in Scripture, (adultery, murder, etc.) or those 'non-mentioned' or 'inferred' sins like smoking, drinking, speeding, cheating, etc... ?

-- Anonymous, February 10, 2002

The last couple of congregations I've been in have disfellowshipped people for gross sin, so there are some congregations that still fool with it.

-- Anonymous, February 11, 2002

John -- Why just the "gross" sins? Why not all sin?

And where do we draw a line ... if indeed we should draw a line?

-- Anonymous, February 11, 2002

Perhaps the disfellowshipping should only occur in the face of flagrant, "in-your-face" refusal to deal with sin. An attitude of "I'm gonna do it and I don't care what you say because you have no authority over me". THAT would require disfellowshipping, I would think. But in the case of "Look, I'm having a real struggle with this. I don't want to keep falling, but I do", more nurturing, teaching, praying, and challenging support is called for, I think.

-- Anonymous, February 11, 2002

To me....the answer is very simple. Disfellowship those involved in sin that the Bible specifically calls for disfellowshipping to take place.

Sexual sin.....I Cor. 5 False teachers....a plethora Divisive People....Titus 3:10-11

Following the principle "Where the Bible speaks...etc."....these are sins for which we have firm biblical ground to stand on for disfellowshipping.

However....remember....the purpose of church discipline is always restorative....not punative.

Why does the N.T. call for discipline is these areas?? As I look at these sins...I see the answer as obvious. The potential for harm to the whole body....and a disruption of the unity God gave us is great as a consequence of these sins. Therefore....the call to action.

-- Anonymous, February 11, 2002

Question . . . ITo what extent is there validity in the idea of "disfellowshipping" in a public way, for the public impact, but behind the scenes, sticking with the guy with the purpose of restoration? Is that two-faced hypocrisy, or is that the way it's supposed to work? DAre we supposed to work on the quiet to restroe, or is the "disfellowshipping" to be relied on to do the work itself?

-- Anonymous, February 11, 2002

Darrell: I agree with both Danny and Sam's posts which followed yours, and I think they sufficiently answer your question.

-- Anonymous, February 11, 2002

For whatever it's worth:

I read a great article in the Restoration Herald on this issue of the lottery once. I have it somewhere, but I have a headache today and don't feel like looking for it. I'm sure that if you go to their web site they can tell you the date of the edition. It convinced me anyway!

-- Anonymous, February 12, 2002

Philip...I saw the same article...plus the one put out by Standard.....plus I've listened to the sermons.

Very unconvincing!!...because most are based on "leaps".....rather than clear, declarative commands.

Is the lotter stupid? Yep. Does it attract a criminal element? Yep.... (but so does organized sports). Is it addictive?? Yep. But so are "Twinkies, Ho-Ho's and McDonalds"....all when doen to access kill you.

Again I come back to the question...if we are going to take serious the admonition of Paul in Ephesians 4 to "be diligent to preserve the bond of peace".....and to follow the principle of "Where the Scriptures speak....etc".....can we preach against the lottery...and make "thus saith the Lord" stands.....and in essence...by our preaching....cause divisions in the body between those who do...and those who don't?

-- Anonymous, February 12, 2002

Here's a thought I had, for what it's worth. The Lord in His parable about the talents got highly upset with the man who did not manage well what was entrusted to him and didn't even have the forethought to invest it, but instead hid it away and hoarded it, and he threw that man outside of the Kingdom (basically he went to hell). How much more would he be angry at someone who didn't even bother to hide it away but instead squandered it all foolishly on games of chance?

-- Anonymous, February 13, 2002

"How much more would he be angry at someone who didn't even bother to hide it away but instead squandered it all foolishly on games of chance?"

Or squandered on baseball or basketball games...hunting...fishing....or any other form of "leisure."

Respectfully John.....you are making my point....by "reaching."

-- Anonymous, February 13, 2002

Danny,

You seem to have the knack of making a big thing out of whatever I have to say, in this thread or elsewhere. I am sorry that the info in the RH didn't convince you -that is your problem of course, not mine - I don't have a personal struggle with the lottery. That is not to say the you do either, but since you are so insistent on this issue, you make it sound like someone who needs an excuse to keep playing.

I would suggest that there are many things in this life about which the Scriptures are relatively silent. Tobacco, marihuana, porn, etc. If the Bible had to include a "thus saith the Lord" on every aspect of moral or immoral behavior, no one would be able to fit it in their pocket :)

How do we know if any of things are good or bad? Well, the NT gives us parameters within which we discern. Paul makes it clear that moral choices are sometimes based on direct commands, and sometimes on overriding principles. The church must deal with these issues with a spirit of restoration and discernment. James says that God is able to give us plenty of wisdom for any given situation if we ask Him. Have you asked Him lately?

-- Anonymous, February 14, 2002

Phil said...."That is not to say the you do either, but since you are so insistent on this issue, you make it sound like someone who needs an excuse to keep playing." My Response: I have never spent a single cent on the lottery or any form of gambling. In fact, the lottery is not "the issue." "The issue"....is....how many things have caused rifts in the brotherhood over things that violate the early premise of our movement....i.e., "Where the Scriptures speak....etc?" It seems you too want to forsake this saying by your following statement.

You said: "I would suggest that there are many things in this life about which the Scriptures are relatively silent. Tobacco, marihuana, porn"

Tobacco?? I agree. So why make an issue over it. Marijuana?? I believe a case could be made that by looking at the Greek word for sorcery in the N.T. which is "Pharmakia"....which refers to the fact that in sorcery mind altering drugs were often used. Any drug that alters the ability of the mind to think clearly should be taken seriously by the Christian. I will admit that we have a hyprocrital society that outlaws marijuana.....but condones drinking....which has killed many more people. "Pornography".....isn't fornication clearly prohibited in Scripture??

You then say...."Paul makes it clear that moral choices are sometimes based on direct commands, and sometimes on overriding principles."

Please scripturally direct me on this....since I don't seem to be able to recall what you are referring to.

Finally you state..."James says that God is able to give us plenty of wisdom for any given situation if we ask Him."

The wisdom of His word is all the wisdom we have been given. The question again becomes.....Have we....or are we in the process of forsaking the principle....."Where the Scriptures speak....etc"....because I see many today....who have forsaken that....and our brotherhood has suffered many a rift because of it....something that would have greatly distresed A. Campbell....and I would imagine the Lord too in light of His prayer in John 17.

-- Anonymous, February 15, 2002

Danny,

I appreciate your concern over needless division in the Church, and I agree whole heartedly with your assessment of the history of the RM. I am also relieved to hear that you do not play the lottery.

Regarding your Sola Scriptura stance, I couldn't agree more, although I would remind you that this has always been the position of the true church throughout history and was not invented by the RM.

It is the same Scripture that tells that there is a certain measure of direct Spirit-led guidance in the practical application of Biblical principles. Since you asked, here is what the God-inspired Scripture has to say about it:

ROMANS 14 12So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. 13Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother’s way. 14I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died. 16Let not then your good be evil spoken of: 17For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. 18For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men. 19Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another. 20For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence. 21It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. 22Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. 23And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Cleary, here is one situation where a practical application of universal principle is apropos. What is the universal principle? Conscience - pure and simple. To violate a God-given conscience is sin, regardless of the "rightness" of our argument. This is also a situation where our dear RM has missed it big time.

JAMES 1

2My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; 3Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. 4But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing. 5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. 6But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. 8A double minded man is unstable in all his ways. 9

Clearly, this is another situation where Spirit-led believers need to request special practical guidance and discernment from God for those situations that have not been dealt with in Scripture

-- Anonymous, February 15, 2002