A topic which I have often been fascinated with is the concept of Scriptural Innerancy of Biblical Infallibility. This concept puts forth the argument that the Bible is without error, contradiction or historical imprecision. It represents the foundation of "Fundamentalist" Christianity. I will go public and express my skepticisms of such an idea because of some passages in the Bible I find to be extremely problematic. I accept the Bible as God's revealed truth to humankind, but everything in the Bible is clearly not literally true. Truth can be expressed in different ways one being the art of metaphor and simile. The first 11 chapters of Genesis I believe are not literally true but the TRUTH is definitively communicated. As Einstein said, he didn't think God played dice with the universe. Translated into lay thinking, we live in a universe where order and immutable "laws" are the norm and not random serendipitous occurences. The dual creation accounts in the first two chapters of Genesis, the paradox of Cain's wife, or the "city" he built after his self-imposed exile are just a few of the challenges for the literalists. Did Balaam's donkey really talk in Numbers or is this simply the inspiration for the humorous sit-com Mr. Ed? Did the "minor" prophet Hosea really marry the prostitute Gomer? But, on second thought if my wife could marry me, a well known womanizer in my "youth", I guess the posssibility is there for a Hosea-Gomer nuptials. Zechariah 8:14 states emphatically Yawheh never repented yet Genesis 6:6 puts forth a different view. Which view is correct? None of Jesus' parables were understood to be historically true but the truth they contained was clearly indisputable. I have looked diligently for an official AME position on this issue of inerrancy but to date I have been unsuccessful. Is any such position outlined in the Discipline? The integrity of our corporate witness for Christ depends on a clear and succinct theological message. We should not shy away from touch questions about our faith. QED

-- Anonymous, February 04, 2002

Answers

Due to my careless proofreading I need to make a few editorial changes to assist the reading of my prior post. The first sentence should have an "or" as oppossed to "of" after Inerrancy. The last sentence shuld have the word tough as oppossed to touch. Upon reflection I should have used several paragraphs. However, my attempt to go back to the original post and insert paragraphs was unsuccessful. In future posts I will avoid the annoyace of one long paragraph. QED

-- Anonymous, February 04, 2002

Professor Dickens,

I believe that the Bible is true and there is no doubt in my mind that you believe likewise. However, I have noticed some questionable aspects in the Bible. For example, Moses is believed to be the author of the first 5 books of the Bible. Clearly, he authored some of the books but there had to be other authors to give an account of his death in these same books. Also, the biblical account would suggest that the earth began about 6000 years ago. I find it difficult to believe that in light of the overwhelming anthropological evidence dating back to 3.5 million years ago.

I attribute these inconsistencies to man's fallibility. I recall reading somewhere in the new testament that even the angels make mistakes. I was shocked the first time I read it because I thought the heavenly beings were perfect. Therefore, if an angel can make a mistake certainly a man who writes down the word of God can do likewise.

The book of Genesis is believed to have been written about 1200 to 1400 BC. Therefore, it was written after the 400 year captivity of the Hebrews in ancient Egypt. Moses led the Hebrews out of Egypt at about age 80 but because of their hard headiness they wandered in the desert for 40 years. Even if Moses' account was precise, I would imagine that after scribes had transcribed his manuscripts over the years, that some took poetic license and added or deleted things at will. I also question how literate were former slaves in Hebrew during the exodus. Was the original Mosaic books written in demotic/hieroglyphic Egyptian and then later translated to Hebrew? When did the Hebrew language emerge?

JazzMan

-- Anonymous, February 05, 2002

A question or maybe 2:

If you can believe that God has the power to resurrect Christ from the dead, why can't you believe He can create a universe that may appear to us to be millions of years old but is really only 6000 or so years old? Again, if Christ be risen from the dead, why can't that same God inspire men to right an accurate account, the Bible? Now you may notice I said "accurate" not "true". That's because when a character lies, or speaks untruth, the Bible records. Another question: Was God aware that you and I would be having this discussion? If so, perhaps it is not an accident that the universe appears to be so old? Is there purpose in the "discrepancies" some folk find?

Blessings

Pastor Paris

-- Anonymous, February 06, 2002

Oh, I forgot; one more: What did Jesus mean when He said everythig written by Moses spoke of Him?

Blessings,

Pastor Paris

-- Anonymous, February 06, 2002

What an exciting topic. Growing up in the church I've found myself being really confused and discouraged since I have started going back to school to continue my education. But I started praying especially hard before I would go to many of the classes and asking God to guard my heart against distractions; but at the same time I asked him to open my heart and mind so that I can learn and not reject things that are contrary or of a different viewpoint.

You know what has happened..when I come from these classes my faith in God just grows stronger. One example is from my astronomy class. The professor one day said when we see a star it had already been in existance thousands of years before we see. There was a time I would have been closedminded and just said they don't know what they are talking about. But my heart rejoiced because my God is a big awesome God. It could have taken him 6 days to create the heavens and the earth; but from human perspective in writing it may appear to be 6000 or so years ago. I believe that is why we are finding fossiles and such. We are learning, and God is proving everyday through our knowlege just how awesome he is.

No we should not shy away from tough questions about our faith. And I think we should encourage our youth to learn and learn and learn. It's been exciting for me and God's Word still stands firm and true.

Jesus saying Moses was speaking of him...Yes I believe that. The burning bush....we know had to be Jesus. He is and always has been our mediator. The Bible says "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (I Tim. 2:5) Jesus is the fulfillment of every experience in the wilderness. He was the rod Moses lifted up, the blood covering over the doorpost. Jesus himself said "If I be lifted up, I'll draw all men unto me." Jesus was the cloud by day and fire by night. He's the rock from which the water was drawn. That's why the consequences of Moses' striking it was so great. He was the manna from heaven. And we can go on.

The Cannon Bible (I'm not pronouncing or spelling that correctly) was written by I believe 72 men as they were inspired by the Holy Spirit. "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." II Peter 1:20-21. Moses could be the writer and the Spirit told the men of his death. That was so significant because in order for him to be present in the transfiguration, an explanation of his burial was very important.

To me, the Word of God is exiciting. It's regenerating. Can read The Lord is my Shepherd today, and tomorrow a brand new meaning comes from it.

I like what the pastor on the board said. If God can raise Jesus from the dead, he can do anything. And you know what...If He can change a vile heart (like myself) into a clean heart, anything is possible.

I tell you what is really sad. A preacher told me there was a poll taken from Christians, and a very large percentage did not believe in a literal ressurection of Jesus. Now this is the basis of our faith.

I've enjoyed this, but better stop.

In Christ,

Carmen

" It is not of any private interpretation, but was written by men as they were inspired the the Holy spirit.

-- Anonymous, February 06, 2002

If one does not believe the literal resurrection of Jesus, then that person has no hope.

Blessings.

Pastor Paris

-- Anonymous, February 06, 2002

I believe every word written in the inspired, infallible, inerrent Word of God called the Bible. There are some mysteries there that we will not have the complete answer to until we see Jesus. If he had given us all knowledge then we'd be like that devil he threw out of heaven, trying to run heaven and earth our way.

There are many stories in the Bible that cause people to have doubts about it's truths, but the fact of the matter is, I find it hard to believe that a mere man like me could write something so profound without the help of a greater power than himself. Where is the author of the Bible? Why doesn't he step up and let us know who he is? There are folk who spend their life trying to prove that the Bible is fallacy.

Yes, Balaam's a$$ did talk and there are a$$$$$ talking today. The difference is that Balaam's a$$ was trying to tell him something for his own good.

Yes, Hosea married a prostitute and the woman brought in outside children then left him with the children and went back to her old ways. When Hosea got word of her condition, he took all that he had to get her back. What a marvelous picture of how much God loves us. No matter how low you go, Jesus can pick us up out of the muck and mire of life. Read your Bible then read 'Pilgrim's Progress'.

God does not repent in the sense that you and I must repent. God was angry because of the way man was acting, therefore, he was 'sick' of their ways and sorry that he had created us because we just wouldn't listen. God hates the sin but loves the sinner. It just happened that that generation in Genesis 6 was beyond saving,except Noah's family, they didn't want to hear any sound doctrine. So, God had to judge them. Sound familiar?

Okay, theologians, please help us to get a better understanding of God's truth on the questions that our Brother has raised.

And by the way, I believe, the 25 articles of religion would probably be the only official AME position on this issue of inspired, inerrant, infallible.

Brother Matthews and other lay and pastors. Is there an official AME position on this matter? And the question posed below, as well.

However, I have to wonder why we (AME's) do not believe in 'washing feet'? And please don't answer with that's a PB thing (Primitive Baptist). Oh, oh!! Pandora don't you open up, girl!! Why not?

Blessings and Peace to all.

Rev. J

-- Anonymous, February 07, 2002

Well Rev. Paris,

I must say that I find it hard to counter your argument based on your strong statements. However, although I believe that the Bible is basically true, I must say that even you or any other theologian would find it difficult to explain how Moses could have written the whole book of Genesis after he died. All I am saying is that over the 1600 year period in which the Bible was written plus the present time that men throughout the ages have tampered with the translation of the scriptures.

JazzMan

-- Anonymous, February 07, 2002

Jazzman's critical commentary regarding Mosaic authorship is widely accepted by modern theologians. AME pastors who are seminary trained are exposed to such critical scholarship during their seminary studies. Why the disconnect when we receive pastoral appointments? QED

-- Anonymous, February 07, 2002

Now Brotha Dickens,

I cannot beleive you came on here and made a statement like this??? My question if you have doubts with the uncompromised WORD of God then why even be a Christian??? 2Timothy3:16 clear states that ALL SCRIPTURE IS GIVEN BY INSPIRATION OF GOD AND IS PROFITABLE FOR DOCTRINE FOR REPROOF FOR CORRECTION FOR INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTEOUNESS"

The Word also states in John 1:1 IN THE BEGINING WAS THE WORD AND THE WORD WAS WITH GOD AND WORD WAS GOD. And the Word dwelt among us"

Numbers 23:19GOD IS NOT A MAN THAT HE SHOULD LIE, THE SON OF MAN THAT HE SHOULD, HATH HE SAID AND SHALL HE NOT DO IT? OR HAVE NOT SPOKEN AND SHALL HE NOT MAKE IT GOOD?

This why I say OVER and OVER again, the Church of Jesus Christ CANNOT be built on the basis and thoughts of man. For centuries, man has taken the Word of God chopped it up to accomidate themselves, but the Word cannot be chopped up not watered down into some miltose version to pasify uncirmcised, uncompromised Christians. Jesus said to Peter after Peter gave the revelation of "Who do men say that I am"(paraphrased) Jesus, said to Peter, (paraphrased) FLESH AND BLOOD

-- Anonymous, February 07, 2002

Now Brotha Dickens,

I cannot beleive you came on here and made a statement like this??? My question if you have doubts with the uncompromised WORD of God then why even be a Christian??? 2Timothy3:16 clear states that ALL SCRIPTURE IS GIVEN BY INSPIRATION OF GOD AND IS PROFITABLE FOR DOCTRINE FOR REPROOF FOR CORRECTION FOR INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTEOUNESS"

The Word also states in John 1:1 IN THE BEGINING WAS THE WORD AND THE WORD WAS WITH GOD AND WORD WAS GOD. And the Word dwelt among us"

Numbers 23:19GOD IS NOT A MAN THAT HE SHOULD LIE, THE SON OF MAN THAT HE SHOULD, HATH HE SAID AND SHALL HE NOT DO IT? OR HAVE NOT SPOKEN AND SHALL HE NOT MAKE IT GOOD?

This why I say OVER and OVER again, the Church of Jesus Christ CANNOT be built on the basis and thoughts of man. For centuries, man has taken the Word of God chopped it up to accomidate themselves, but the Word cannot be chopped up not watered down into some miltose version to pasify uncirmcised, uncompromised Christians. Jesus said to Peter after Peter gave the revelation of "Who do men say that I am"(paraphrased) Jesus, said to Peter, (paraphrased) FLESH AND BLOOD HAVE NOT REVEALED THIS YOU BUT MY FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN AND UPON THIS ROCK (meaning DIVINE revlation not MANS) I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH AND THE GATES SHALL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST IT.

This is the result when we allow such thinking go in the Church. The Word say, not to be swayed to EVERY wing and doctrine. The grass fadeth, the flowers wilters but the WORD of God shall stand forever. Heaven and earth may pass away but the Word of God shall never pass away. I challenge you go one without the Word of God and see where you be. It is like air, you cannot live without it, but learned men and women want to thrive and preach in our churchs without the Word of God, doing this, is the same as operating in witchcraft. Without His spirit operating through the Word manifested, we are in our minds. We are nothing.

Dickens, all I can say on your issue, you have allow to let satan deceive you, putting a spirit of confusion in your mind, cause the Lord doesnt operate in the spirit of confusion. Get a one on one personal realtionship with the Lord and allow him to tell you the Word. The Word is revealed. He that have an ear let him HEAR what the SPIRIT says to the Church.

-- Anonymous, February 07, 2002

There can be little doubt that Moses probably did not write all of the first five books. And if he did, it was not first hand such as Isaiah. Moses is associated with the Law as Jesus is associated with Grace.So as the first five books reveals the Law to mankind, the age of Law if you will; and Jesus reveals the age of Grace, which as He himself tesyifies does not repeal the Law, but soes what the Law could not do, that is give life. Consider Ezra, the one who could be called the father of Judaism as praticed in his time and even now. Ezra forbade marriage of the priesthood to non-Jews. Those who would not divorce their wives lost their place in the priesthood. Now I ask was that God or Ezra? I suggest that Ezra was sincerely wrong and his bias gives us insight to his character; and says nothing about the character of God. I believe the Apostle Paul is revealed in the scriptures as a work in progress. He changed his mind about the status of women preachers, you see.

blessings,

Pastor Paris

-- Anonymous, February 07, 2002

It's okay to have questions, most especially questions about things you just don't understand. There are, certain places in scripture that we, with our finite minds, just cannot and will not comprehend. I believe those areas are God's way of saying "nun-nah", that is, 'none of your business', it's not expedient for you to know.

What good is it for us to know if there was one or two creations? What good is it for us to know if Noah is Canaan's father or if Ham is the youngest son or the middle son? How really significant is it that Moses didn't write Deuteronomy 34? There are so many things that we just do not know, but we spend a lot of time speculating about. I suppose it does make for good debate. But,does it change the fact that God is sovereign?

When I see Jesus, one day should I have a break from my daily act of praising Him, I want to ask Him, does it matter if Moses wrote his own obituary and preached his own eulogy? Is it significant because you wrote your obit (my mother and sister and brothers are those who do the will of my Father) and preached your eulogy from the cross (Father forgive them for they know not what they do)?

Will you revisit Deuteronomy 32 with me? Moses, a man on a his final mission writes a hymn which was designed to motivate Israel to be obedient and to teach them (reiterate)that God will judge sin. Did we learn? Still doing our own thing? Oh, well.

There are a lot of things that I don't know, but one thing I do know is that our God is awesome and that He does what He wants to do and how He wants to do it and that He chooses and uses whoever He desires. I just want to be available when He wants to use me. I just want to be ready to say, "yes, Lord, Your will and Your way."

Yes, it's okay to have questions and believe me I have many about lots of things, just don't allow doubt to catch up with you and overtake you because "they entered not in because of their unbelief."

Some of our great theologians will probably be able to give us a more thorough look into the various questions that you posed. I hope so.

Brother Dickens and all of you who post on this site, I long to meet you because all of you pose such thought provoking questions and insights and it would be so good just to be able to personally share with each of you. Let me just leave you with one, one of my favorite hymns.

When you walk with the Lord in the Light of His Word, what glory He sheds in our way. When we do His sweet will, He abides with us still and with all who will Trust and obey. Trust and obey for there's no other way to be happy in Jesus than to trust and obey.

blessings and peace to all

Rev. J

-- Anonymous, February 08, 2002

Greetings Minister Crawford:

First let me express my appreciation for you practically making me a cause celebre' regarding my thoughts on this subject. While I have been publicly rebuked by some of my critics for leading the "masses" in the wrong direction on matters pertaining to economics, science, law and public policy, this is the first time ,in recent memory, my commentary has been interpreted as being Satan "inspired". Let me kindly reiterate my thesis on this topic. I raised the question regarding wheter everything written in the Bible is true. I expressed my reservations about "everything" based on my critical understanding of Scripture, theology and science. I believe the Bible is the TRUTH but everything contained within the sacred text is not literally true. When Rahab was asked about the whereabouts of the two spies Joshua and Caleb she resonded by denying any knowledge about their identity or location. Now did Rahab "perjure" herself or did she state the truth? You be the judge. Apparent differences in theological opinion are present in the NT. The Synoptic Gospels are not plaigarized texts of Christ's events, as they should be. Are the views of Paul and James regarding justification irreconciliable? I think not, but it would be somewhat naive to conclude that doctrinal matters are always clear-cut. QED

-- Anonymous, February 08, 2002

I believe it all. I can't explain it all, and I don't understand it all, and I may even change my views on what I believe over time. But one thing won't change, and that is my belief in the inerrancy of Scripture. What it says is true. Now if you'll just wait on my understanding and ability to explain it to catch up.

-- Anonymous, February 08, 2002

Bill,

I applaud you for using the brain which God gave you to admit and ask these questions. I am certain you represent countless others who have the same questions as you have, and other questions as well. However they simply do not ask them for fear of being trampled on or called names by those who claim to have been born with perfect faith and never any doubt. As educators you and I both know that all meaningful knowledge begins and may often end with a question.

J. B. Philips once wrote a book entitled, "Your God is Too Small." I am glad my God is BIG enough to answer any questions I may have. Nor do I think I must necessarily wait for some future state of heavenly bliss to receive an answer. God is in no way diminished by our questions. Such questions may in fact be His own way of saying, "Learn of Me."

Once again I am reminded of C. S. Lewis who may have remained an atheist except for the fact that he admitted having and asked such questions as these. The result was his writing such major works as "Mere Christianity" and other similar writings which led not only himself but countless others to Christ.

Thank God He has given us the intelligence to say, "Lord I believe, help my unbelief."

-- Anonymous, February 09, 2002

Robert Matthews should be a candidate for the AME Bishoprick in 2004. He brings intellectual integrity, dedication and passion for effectively serving the people of God. We may not agree on everything (musicology, war to name a few) but I know beyond doubt that my interests as a lay member will have an ear (removed from all political wax)if Bob was on the Bench. The sometimes adversarial relationship between clergy and lay could be ameliorated if the Lay had a seat on the Bishop's Bench. The Board of Directors for Fortune 500 publicly-traded corporations have diverse members. The AMEC should be no different since our objective is to serve humanity. Oh, one thing Robert, do you guys in GA still sing that great song We'll Understand it better Bye & Bye"? :-) QED

-- Anonymous, February 09, 2002

Brother Bill, I applaud your interest in the workings of the church. However, you threw a curve into the discussion when you introduced your idea of lay membership on the bench of Bishops. That is a term (i.e., "bench of Bishops") which is rarely used. There is lay involvement via the lay organization. This organization could be effective if persons were elected as delegates to the general conference based upon ability and not merely being a "team player." Similar to clergy, there are members of the lay who are just as complacent and satisfied with the status quo. There is equal representation from both clergy and lay when electing delegates to the various conferences, as well as lay representation on the General Board. We must recruit, nurture and encourage new blood for this organization. It is a worthwhile cause and one that is needed. It is embarrassing to attend the lay convention(s) or activities when you see the same persons year after year, doing the same thing year after year.If there was an effective arm such as the Lay organization, then there would be a greater chance of accountable on both sides of the fence. An informed lay organization is an effective organization.

-- Anonymous, February 11, 2002

Ahh, brothers and sisters. Questions, questions, questions. Brother Bill, your last two sentences in your original discourse, should impress upon us that we need to take a look at ourselves as a connectional church. Dr. James Cone pointed that out to us in 1969/70.

Here's another question to ponder, what are we connected to and for what purpose?

Pastor Allen, exposes another misnomer that I have addressed in another thread, that of the educated pew as seen from the perspective of the lay organization. Who is responsible for educating the pew? Pastor Allen gives us a glimpse when he says, "when we (operative word "we")recruit, nurture, and encourage new blood for this organization". Lord, help us to do so.

What happens when the pew and the pulpit are/are not connected? What happens when the doctrine and discipline of the AME Church is interpreted using the proverbial (a former pastor's assessment) discipline way, AME (traditional) way, and "my way" of interpretation? Although, it is from another century, what happened to the use of the Methodist Polity by H. McNeil Turner as the source of intrepretation? Why haven't our learned collegues updated, rewritten, explained the polity? Because the doctrine and discipline of the AME church is subject to the intrepretation of the one using it, it's ambiguous verbage leaves it subject to various interpretations.

I too, have many questions Brother Bill regarding portions of scripture that the Holy Spirit hasn't revealed to me, as yet. But I keep asking and studying and meditating and in due season, what I need to know will be revealed to me.

Keep those questions coming, Brother Bill. I'm still seeking to find out 'who Cain's wife was," as well. As I said, previously, some things just aren't expedient for us to know. It's a MYSTERY! It's God's plan?

Blessings and peace,

Rev. J

-- Anonymous, February 11, 2002

Bill,

Interestingly enough there are known (human) errors, which were made by scribes or even CREATED by redactors in telling the story. Today I came across one of these, which I had forgotten but it is one, which is well known by Bible scholars and teachers of small children. I only remembered because I am teaching the story of David and Goliath tomorrow at my church. The error occurs in the inconsistency of the texts found in many modern translations of I Samuel 17:50 and II Samuel 21:19 as compared to I Chronicles 20:5. The story is the same so they are not talking about two different Goliaths. WHO KILLED GOLIATH?

The overwhelming research shows that the Hebrew Scribes originally made this error and thus it was never caught in many modern translations.

Therefore, I think two things emerge from this:

1). In all of our reading and understanding of biblical texts we must read the Bible as a whole in order to get the entire picture. When this is done it is obvious--as every child knows--that David killed Goliath and Elhanan slew his brother. Proof-texting or lifting verses from the context in which they are written can often lead to gross error and distortion of the TRUTH.

2). Errors such as these make a strong statement in favor of those of us who believe the King James Version to still be the most accurate English translation to date. This version caught and corrected the errors mentioned above even though Hebrew Scribes DID NOT catch it. So in reading other translations, we would do well to always compare them to King James.

-- Anonymous, February 16, 2002

Brotha Dickens:

If you BELIEVE everything in the Word of God, then why question it? I feel that we as ministers and saints alike have too full of education and not of the Spirit. It appears that we want to perform an autopsy on the Bible rather than taking Word for what it is. It appears that man has decided to rationize the Word of God, breaking it down his own purpose just to accomidate his own shortcomings, bring God down to their level rather than following the Word to the letter. We want to always find an alterative way to excuse our sin, by twisting the Word of God. We don't call sin sin anymore, rather call them weaknesses and try to find scripture to pacify the sin in which we are in. We should not tamper with the Word of God. A few years ago I attended Hood Theologically Seminary,(an AME Zion school) working on my Doctorate in Divinity. The things my professors taught did not go with what the Lord revealed to me in the Holy Scriptures. It appeared that we were taught to discredit the Word of God, because you should not believ everything that is in the Word. I couldn't live with this teaching, so I dropped out of cemetary, I mean seminary, and haven't looked back since. Alot of people may wonmder why I am so hard nosed on this format, this reason is, I see that for the most part the church is in bondage. We want to do what we think God wants us to do, but in the end, we are playing ourselves. Our offerings, what we think is a wonderful sacrifice to the Lord, is garbage to his nostrils. We have to line up with His word and His Spirit. Judgement begins in the house of God. God is starting to correct us, the ministers, prophets, teachers, etc first once He correct us then He will use us to correct the rest of the body, but how can He correct us when we out right refused to be corrected? I am through with this, your thoughts or comments are appreiciated.

-- Anonymous, February 19, 2002