I've seen occasional talk of the PK movement, but little to no talk on men's ministry.

I've been studying the men's movement stuff of the 90s (PK), and have discovered that even higher ups in the Promise Keepers organization will admit they have failed, primarily because PK events can get one worked up, but it doesn't help with commitment. A number of their former officials are now pushing for churches to take responsibility, to establish ministry to men within their own walls.

What of your church? I can't see the justification of a men's ministry in a small slow growth church, but large or rapidly growing churches probably could use a church ministry focused on the discipleship of men. Does your church have an organized way of seeing to the growth of men that recognizes their distinction from women?

Please don't turn this into a bash the PKs thread. I'm not talking about a ministry that takes some guys to a PK rally. I'm talking a process and relational driven ministry to help men be men of God.

-- Anonymous, January 22, 2002

Answers

I'm with Darrell on this one.

That's why I never saw the need for PK.

We should have been doing this stuff for years.

-- Anonymous, January 23, 2002

I'm with Darrell on this one.

Truth is truth.....WHEREVER....it comes from.

There is a lot of good material out there....and part of the job of a good leader is being able to sift the good and discard the bad.

-- Anonymous, January 24, 2002

Mark,

It doesn't matter how big a church is or isn't......we have GOT to concentrate more on the men. The biggest problem our churches have had over the last 20 to 30 years is that the men have bowed out & let the women run things. THIS IS A BAD THING.....as Bill Umstetter will testify to in his recent thread.

Our churches need MEN! Not males, but MEN. Men who love the Lord, and want to serve Him in His church and in their own homes. This won't happen overnight or even very naturally. We need to be trained better (just ask any woman...Ha!) Seriously, I think many women would gladly "bow out" if more men would rise up & be MEN.

We don't need to have meetings in stadiums to get us "hyped up". It needs to be preached from our pulpits every week. It needs to be discussed in Elder's (Bored) Meetings. Men need to come together more often in fellowship AND fun in order to help encourage one another (like in our Preacher/Elder Hog Hunts). The trials of History have shown that Christianity ain't for wimps - it's for "mighty men of valor".

It's interesting that in the Old Testament, men who were emasculated or castrated (whether by choice, accident, or birth) were not allowed to enter into the tabernacle or temple to worship - illustrating the point........church ain't for wussies! ___:~)

-- Anonymous, January 22, 2002

How about this? When we start preaching the Word, and the entire Word, the men in the congregations will be taught re: their responsibilities, and over time will come along and take their rightful positions in the home and in the church.

Not trying to make it any more simple than it needs be, but ...

-- Anonymous, January 23, 2002

Ahhh, but ...

Canadian geese fly 70% faster in formation than they do flying solo.

Mere knowledge doesn't cut it. It's not enough. I know of someone who has to be in the top 4 all time in his knowledge of scripture, yet it hasn't done him any positive good. He even believes in God. Perhaps you have heard of him, for his name is Satan.

-- Anonymous, January 23, 2002

I understand, Mark, but it is certainly a beginning place. Once the Word is being preached, then the current leaders (if there are any) can take the men under their wing and begin to mentor them biblically.

Men's Bible studies, prayer times, any chance to meet ... the women have been doing it for years, and maybe that is why we see them in "leadership" roles men should be taking.

-- Anonymous, January 23, 2002

Brother Darrel:

I am happy to notice that you and I agree very much concerning your following words:

“How about this? When we start preaching the Word, and the entire Word, the men in the congregations will be taught re: their responsibilities, and over time will come along and take their rightful positions in the home and in the church. “

To which I a hearty AMEN AND AMEN! For this is exactly what the scripture themselves teach us. I will quote a few of them, which demonstrate this truth.

“For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.” (Romans 15:4).

“And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Tim. 3:15,16).

And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, [and] mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.

For he mightily convinced the Jews, [and that] publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.

“These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.” (Acts 17:11).

Jesus taught from the scriptures and one special occasion after his resurrection states the strength of such teaching and the effect that it can have upon the Lord’s disciples as follows:

“And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and he made as though he would have gone further. But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them. And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed [it], and brake, and gave to them. And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight. And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?” (Luke 24:27-32).

The inspired word of God is where the POWER resides today for it is the means of the guidance of the Holy Spirit. And the Lordship of Christ over our lives is executed through the “word of God”.

We are to be governed today by the authority of Christ. (

“Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, [that] every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.” (Acts 3:19-23).

And Christ said that all authority had been given to him in heaven and on earth.

“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.” (Matt. 28:18).

And Christ authority was executed through the apostles of Christ. (Matt. 19:27,28; Matt. 28:18-20; Matt. 16:17-19; John 20;22,23; 2 Cor. 5:8,9; 1 John 4:6).

And the Holy Spirit guided the apostles. (John 14:16,17;John 14:26; John 16:13; Luke 24:49; Acts 1:8; Acts 2:1-4).

And the teaching of the apostles, which they received from the Holy Spirit, is therefore the teaching of Christ because the Lord so confirmed it to be such by accompanying their teaching with miracles. (Mark 16:15-20; Heb. 2:3,4).

And therefore, through the teaching of the word of God received from the apostles of Christ our Lord Jesus Christ, the head of the Church and King over the Kingdom of God executes his authority, power and control over the church of Christ. And the church, both men and women will be what Christ wants them to be if they know HIS WORD and obey HIS WILL in all things. And nothing greater can be done to achieve this objective then to make sure that the WORD OF GOD is taught. Make sure that the “whole counsel of God is taught”. For in doing so persistently, aggressively, faithfully, powerfully, and without ceasing. For by doing this we shall not only “save ourselves but them that hear us” as well. For this Paul taught Timothy in these words:

“Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine. “ (1 Tim. 4:13).

And again he said:

“Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.” (1 Tim. 4:16).

Now, frankly, I believe that I understand Brother Mark’s pint that “knowledge of the scriptures is not enough. But I do not very much like the insinuation made when people talk as if one who has a great knowledge of the scriptures is more like “Satan” than Christ. And I state now that I am aware that Brother Mark did not intend to convey such with his remark. But a few examples from the word of God would have made the point far better than his remark. For those remarks sound so much like those who complain in debate of the other person using a “lot of scripture” to establish the truth of their teaching by seeking to make a comparison between their opponent and Satan because they know and use the scriptures. Such a point often overlooks the fact that Satan knows the scriptures so that he can lead men to “wrest them to their own destruction” and also overlooks the truth that only by a great knowledge of the scriptures can one counter Satan’s tactics in this regard. It would have been much better to see Brother Winstead use the word of God to demonstrate to us that mere knowledge of God’s word is not enough. These are his words to which I am referring:

“Mere knowledge doesn't cut it. It's not enough. I know of someone who has to be in the top 4 all time in his knowledge of scripture, yet it hasn't done him any positive good. He even believes in God. Perhaps you have heard of him, for his name is Satan.”

Now, none could know that “mere knowledge of the scripture is not enough except by having enough “knowledge of the scriptures” to understand that such is in fact the truth. And the fact that Satan knows the scriptures may prove that point. But, if anyone would take that statement to mean, as I have seen some do, that they are better off than Satan if they simply love God and try to be good people while remaining IGNORANT of the scriptures they are woefully mistaken. The following scriptures would have made the point that knowledge of the scriptures is not enough without insinuating however inadvertently that knowing the scriptures is next to being like “Satan”.

“Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth [it] not, to him it is sin.” ( James 4:17).

“And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, [do] all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.” (Col. 3:17).

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” (John 8:31,32).

And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.” (Luke 6:46-49).

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Matt. 7:21-23).

“But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth [therein], he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.” (James 1:25).

So, a person who knows the word of God is doing the will of God for it is God direct command that we KNOW HIS WILL. “Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord [is].” (Eph. 5:18). And it is IMPOSSIBLE to DO GOD’S WILL without KNOWING HIS WILL. So, those who know the will of God are nothing like Satan by knowing it. They become like Satan only when they deliberately disobey it and reject it and rebel against it and “wrest it to their own destruction”! It is good and right to be “mighty in the scriptures”! And may God grant us more men who are “mighty” in their knowledge of the scriptures and that obey God’s will by teaching it to other “faithful men” whom shall be able to teach others also. For this is right. But those who know God’s will only so that they can ignore it, reject it and pervert it so as to prevent others from knowing these are the ones who are like Satan. But they are not like Satan because they KNOW the word of God. They are like him when they despise, reject and rebel against what they KNOW to be God’s will.

But we will never have anyone who obeys God’s will who is ignorant of God’s word. And no congregation of the Lord’s people will ever rise higher than their knowledge of God’s word. For it is God’s word that moves them to obey and provides them with the proper understanding or reasons for obedience and it gives them the proper motives for obeying God. And I would venture to say that it is ignorance of God’s word that is at the core of the weakness among the MEN and WOMEN in sadly too many of our congregations of the saints! May God grant that we will return to the Old Paths and ask for the ancient way and know the will of God and by faith obey it all of our lives. And may we once again have among us real men who are indeed “mighty in the scriptures” And women who are as mighty. So that as “Pricilla and Aquilla” who taught Apollus, a man mighty in the scriptures the “way of the Lord more perfectly so that when Christ returns he will indeed find “faith on earth” for “faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God” (Romans 10:17). And the increase in faith among us will therefore be directly proportional to the KNOWLEDGE of God’s word among us!

And you have said:

“Not trying to make it any more simple than it needs be, but ...”

It is indeed a simple as you have put it, Brother. Though gaining the kind of knowledge of God’s word required to become one who is “mighty in the scriptures” is not by any means simple or easy. But it is indeed powerful for we are told:

“For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.” (Heb. 4:12).

Therefore let us arm ourselves with the “sword of the Spirit which is the WORD OF GOD” (Eph. 6:17). And let us pull it out of its sheath. And not put it back until the battle is won and with our victorious Lord Jesus Christ has given us that precious crown that “fadeth not away eternal in the heavens, which we shall cast down at his feet to his praise and eternal glory”!

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, January 23, 2002

BRethren:

I do detect from this call for a "special ministry for men" a possibility of a shift in the PK strategy from persuading men to come to their meetings to one where they shall ultimately seek to infiltrate our ranks with their "teaching materials" by starting such ministries.

Now, I do not believe this is the case with Brother Mark nor do I think that it was the purpose of his remarks. I do not even believe that he has been infulnced by such to make his remarks. I am simply saying that when we try to start a special program in the church to "meet the needs of a specific group" we can be vunerable to efforts at infiltration from without. Be careful for many "change agents" are "walking about as roaring lions seeking whom they may devour"! I am saying that Brother Winstead's suggestion may come again from persons with other motives than his good ones.

WHen we seek to resolve problems in a congregation more by "programs of man's design than by PRECEPTS of God command we are heading the wrong way from the begining.

Just a brief warning for all of you to consider in connection with my previous post. Something I wanted to say in that post but did not do so.

Your Brother in CHrist,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, January 23, 2002

I couldn't agree with you more Brother E. Lee.

I have absolutely nothing to do with the PKs, their movement, or their materials..........The LAST thing I need in my life (or anybody else for that matter) is to be told what to do in a Spiritual sense by those who can't even accept the simple teachings of the Gospel........believe, repent, confess, & be baptized.

And if one were to choose to implement some programs to better enable men in the church, it must be Biblically based, for how else could you possibly help them become men of God without using God's Word.

The recent fiasco over the "Weigh Down Workshop" ought to serve warning about where, & from whom, we choose to get materials.

-- Anonymous, January 24, 2002

One thing to remember Mark -- there are some good materials and programs out there that, once we "baptize" them, are very useable. There are, for the most part, no publishers around any more that include immersion for the remission of sins in their material (there might be some small ones, but not many, I am sure).

So, what do we do? We can choose to write our own material. That can be very difficult for some SS teachers, etc. And, truth be told, that can get a CE department in trouble quickly if not watched closely.

Or, we can use "whats out there" and "baptize" the material as needed. I have done that for years.

Even our "beloved" Standard Publishing has moved away from including immersion in their materials, esp. VBS stuff. I remember when they used to include it, many moons ago. Now you don't see much of it in their material, and that ensures they can sell their stuff to all the different denoms out there.

Same with any PK material. If it is basically good stuff re: men and their responsibilities, needs, etc., then MAYBE it could be used, just adopted as needed.

-- Anonymous, January 24, 2002

Brother Mark:

I appreciate very much your following strong and accurate statement:

“I have absolutely nothing to do with the PKs, their movement, or their materials..........The LAST thing I need in my life (or anybody else for that matter) is to be told what to do in a Spiritual sense by those who can't even accept the simple teachings of the Gospel........believe, repent, confess, & be baptized.”

Those who are not even in Christ Jesus should surely not be teaching those who are in Christ how to live as faithful children of God. In fact, we are not supposed to “have anything to do” with those who are in the church of Christ that cause divisions contrary to the doctrine that we have received from the apostles. Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. For your obedience is come abroad unto all [men]. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil. And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you. Amen.” (Rom. 16:17-20).

How much more then should we avoid those who are not even Christians and mark them? The beloved apostle John made this quite clear from the following inspired words:

“Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into [your] house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.” (2 John 9-11).

Now just how on earth can anyone justify using material from those who are teaching contrary to the doctrine of Christ? And there is simply no excuse for not teaching the truth of the word of God in the churches and there is no excuse for taking materials written by those who are opposed to Christ and the truth and teaching from it in the church of Christ. The weak and feeble excuse that no one is writing any materials in the church is pathetic indeed! Get up and write some good materials if none are doing it! Let the elders of the church and the evangelist write materials themselves and insist that the teachers teach from it and follow the curriculum designed by the elders or at the very least by brethren who, know, love and teach the truth.

Brother Darrel:

You have said:

“One thing to remember Mark -- there are some good materials and programs out there that, once we "baptize" them, are very useable.”

Now, I know Brother Darrel that your intentions are good in what you have said above. But I cannot agree that we should “baptize” the material written by those who do not teach the truth about baptism and have not themselves even been baptized into Christ. Instead we should be working to baptize the people who write those materials! We do not need for those who are not Christians to be teaching by any means in the church of Christ. We are the one’s that have been commanded by the Lord to teach and therefore we are not to merely modify material written by those who are not Christians. Instead, we as Christians need to be “diligent” and write our own materials taken from the word of God to teach in the church. Listen to these words:

“And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.” (2 Tim. 2:2).

And what excuse is there among so many men among us who have so many “advanced degrees” that we must depend upon those who are not Christians to write the lessons to be taught in the kingdom of God. Why would the “citizens of Troy foolishly invite the Trojan Horse” into their mist?

Is it not down right SAMEFUL that some actually believe that we must depend upon those who are not Christians to teach those who are? And if it is shameful why do we yield and give way to such nonsense instead of doing something about it?

Then you say:

“ There are, for the most part, no publishers around any more that include immersion for the remission of sins in their material (there might be some small ones, but not many, I am sure).”

Now Brother I must tell you that may be true among you and the brethren that you know but it simply is not true among us. You can find plenty of material from the Gospel Advocate that teaches the truth about baptism. And why would you avoid having any material from your Brothers in Christ just because they do not use instruments in worship? And prefer instead to get materials from those who are not even in Christ Jesus? I cannot understand that thinking in the least bit. And if you would check with your brethren who do not use instrument of music in the worship you would find much good material written by good men who are faithful to Christ. You can contact many of our very good Universities and Christians Schools who provide much good material for teaching in the churches. So, there really is no good excuse for using, materials written by those who are not in Christ Jesus.

They you say:

“So, what do we do? We can choose to write our own material. That can be very difficult for some SS teachers, etc.”

Yes, you can choose to write your own materials. And no one says the “SS Teachers” have to do it themselves. For the faithful men in the church can write it. Or the Elders can write it or the Evangelist can write it or all of them together can write it and give it to the “SS teachers” just as they currently give materials written by false teachers without even reviewing it to them now! And just think of what an indictment it is against one that would purport to teach but does not have the ability to write lessons designed for teaching! Can you imagine what would be said to a person who wanted to teach in a university that admitted that he could not develop and write lessons plans or materials for his class because it was too “difficult for him”? Why would we allow such a person to teach in the church if we would not accept such in any of our secular or Christian schools? Is it because we perceive of the teaching in the church as being of far less importance than teaching in our Christian schools or public schools? And how pathetic this is during a time when Christians must educate their own because of the opposition found in government and public Schools to Christianity! Brethren, if this is the situation among us then we had better stand up NOW and change it and very quickly!

Then you say:

“And, truth be told, that can get a CE department in trouble quickly if not watched closely.”

You mean to tell me that it would get the “CE” department (whatever that is) in trouble quickly if it is not watched but providing materials written by those who are not even Christians would not get this “CE department” into trouble?

Then you say:

“Or, we can use "whats out there" and "baptize" the material as needed.”

This “baptizing material” is silly. Why must you “use what is out there” instead of DETERMINING what is out there to be used by Christians among you and elsewhere? This is absurd. If you are indeed “apt to teach” you should be able to prepare your own lesson plans submit them to the elders for approval and then teach them.

Then you say:

“I have done that for years.”

This is sad indeed, Brother. For years you have “baptized materials” written by those who have never been baptized into Christ instead of providing materials to be used by those who have not been baptized into Christ in their Classes and you wonder why they have not be baptized? Ha! We need to be writing materials that are considered to be so good that those who have never been baptized into Christ will feel the urge to use it in their classes and then we will be baptizing THEM instead of their materials. And if you say they would not ever use materials that were written by us. Then I would say why would we ever use material written by them? And I would ask why are they more faithful to Satan than we are to Christ? And this use of their material may explain why I have found so much ignorance in this forum concerning the baptism of John and the necessity of baptism to our salvation even among some of those who have been baptized and are Christians.

Not only would the church benefit from your writing your own materials. You would benefit as well. And most importantly those who are not yet Christians may benefit and you would be baptizing them instead of their materials! For there is no benefit to be derived from baptizing materials. But a soul is saved when a person is baptized! Do something about it, Brother! Go, teach all nations as Christ commanded (Matt. 28:19,20) and stop searching for all nations to teach you after you have “baptized their material”.

Then you say:

“Even our "beloved" Standard Publishing has moved away from including immersion in their materials, esp. VBS stuff. I remember when they used to include it, many moons ago.”

This is not only sad it is shameful and that the “Standard Publishing” is still “beloved” after so departing from the faith once delivered as to not even be teaching it anymore is even more sad.

Then you say:

“ Now you don't see much of it in their material, and that ensures they can sell their stuff to all the different denoms out there.”

Now we reach the “crux” of the whole matter. It is the MONEY isn’t it? I do wonder just how much material we could get written by Christians for use in the church if we were to DANGLE SOME MONEY out in front of those who currently have no desire to “write” such materials themselves?!

Then you say:

“Same with any PK material. If it is basically good stuff re: men”

No, it is not “basically good stuff” because it is written by men who are not in Christ Jesus. We are not to bid Godspeed to such men. It is not to be used in the church of Christ! The word of God teaches men how they should behave and no person who is not a Christian is qualified to teach how Christian men should behave. And I detect from your words, “basically good stuff” the implication that there are some things within that material that is not good and therefore you could not say it was really good only that it is “basically good”. Well, it will never be as good as that written by a faithful Christian who is walking in the light. Ask yourself what fellowship hath DARKNESS WITH LIGHT”?

It is shameful indeed that anyone in the church would look to the sectarians who are not Christians for material to teach in the Kingdom of God. It is shameful.

Now, where I worship we have a curriculum written by our Elders and the preacher and several faithful teachers among us, which takes us through the entire Bible every three years. And we are constantly improving it. It is not as difficult as you might think to do such things. And I will tell you that they work very hard on it and take their teaching responsibilities seriously. In fact, they even write materials to be used by missionaries around the world and send it out to them at their own expense. And if you were to tell them that they could get some “basically good material” written by those who are not Christians and save themselves the effort and energy they would look at you as if you had denied the faith and was worse than an infidel! And you know what, their feeling would be very close to RIGHT!

Shame on all of you that use these materials written by those who are not Christians because you are incompetent or too lazy to write the material yourself. And worse, because some of you would prefer to get materials for those who are not Christians than to seek materials from those of us who are Christians just because we do not use instruments of music in our worship to God. We have plenty of materials written by many faithful Christians and you will not have to “baptize the material” because those who have written it have been “baptized into Christ”!

And I will be more than happy to help any of you out there who need teaching materials to find such written by Christians so that you will not feel this unjustified need to use materials written by servants of Satan to teach in the HOUSE OF GOD. It is shameful that you even contemplate such things!

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, January 24, 2002

As Danny stated:

"I'm with Darrell on this one. Truth is truth.....WHEREVER....it comes from."

-- Anonymous, January 24, 2002

Interesting that this thread seems to be gravitating towards becoming a "baptism" thread. Kind of reminds me of the preacher at my church for jr high through high school -- no matter where the sermon started, the last five minutes were one of four variations on baptism.

Now, foundations are fine and dandy, but I wasn't talking about a program that becomes a church within a church. And horrors, Lee, I didn't use a scripture to make a point when I could have -- I must be a heathen (hmmm, no, maybe I'm used to dealing with non-Christians and baby Christians). (I guess this thread is official -- it's been Saffordized).

No, what I am talking about is "it was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers to prepare God's people for works of service until we all ... become mature". We have an obligation to help others mature. Many here in the thread have acknowledged that men have unique roles (mmm, don't need scripture to know that, but we could use it if we needed to) and it doesn't take a biblical scholar to know that men can be taught in unique ways.

Are we opposed to men meeting in small groups? Four guys meeting weekly to help each other "do life" responsibly, sounding out each other, helping to hold each other accountable? Or a small group of new male believers meeting weekly with a mature Christian man mentoring them?

This is what men's ministry ultimately is at the churches I have studied from afar, with a few other activities to funnel men into such groups and some leadership accountability/training activities. All of this organized by God-equipped men gifted to equip others, all for the purpose of transforming men from a worldly view of success to a God-given view of significance.

But, horrors, the Bible didn't model men's ministry for us!!! Yep, and the Bible didn't model bible colleges or seminaries. Instead, the preachers of the first century can typically be viewed participating in a small group, being mentored by a more mature believer or Christ. Let's see, Peter, James, John et al were in a small group with Christ; Paul was in a small group of men led by Barnabas; Timothy, Titus and Luke were seen at times learning in a group with Paul ...

-- Anonymous, January 24, 2002

Mark,

You say the Bible doesn't model men's ministries, then go on and talk about the small group aspect....the EXAMPLE that we have from Scripture! That's it....not to difficult. "men's ministry" should be all about discipling....one who is mature in the Lord teaching another...saying "follow me as I follow Christ!"

Don't sweat the modern church paradigm...be confident it doing what the Bible teaches....where it is silent, exercise your liberty. Be creative! If you have 2 men in your fellowship, then work closely with them. *numbers* do not determine validity when it comes to Christian work/service.

Remember the parable of the talents...the person with 5 and the person with 2 each received the same blessing...just not in the same amount. Ultimately, the person with one that did nothing had even that taken from him....

-- Anonymous, January 24, 2002

Brother Darrel:

You have said:

“As Danny stated: "I'm with Darrell on this one. Truth is truth.....WHEREVER....it comes from."”

Now, we also agree with Danny, and Darrel, that “truth is truth” where ever it comes from. But truth taught by a liar is usually designed to establish trust so that when he tells a lie he will be believed. And those who do not bring the doctrine of Christ are not to be given GODSPEED. (2 John 9-11). And those who are not Christians have no business teaching the church of Christ anything about the will of God. And you must remember that errors are often mixed with a measure of truth and it produces deception. And it is not more difficult to simply allow the Christians to write their own lessons taken from the word of God. Than it is to depend upon false teachers to send us their material to be taught in the churches. Hoping that everyone will do a good job of “sifting” the truth from their many errors and case it away without “spilling” any of their lies into the body of Christ.

Satan has always used truth, provided that he could mix in a few errors with it to lead men away from God. Satan appears as an “Angel of Light” but he is the master of darkness. Beware Brethren and do not be lead away by this foolishness just because you know that truth is truth no matter who speaks it. The problem with those who are not Christians is that they do not know and speak the truth concerning how to become Christians. And they cannot know much about how to live as faithful Christians. But if you get people used to trusting them to teach some truth and they read their writings outside in other times and places they made be heard because they have been so highly recommended in the church. And the things that they teach outside just might be a lie. But you have trained the brethren to trust them and they read their other writings and learn error. I have seen it happen and so have you. As Brother Mark Wisniewski has so ably pointed out. “The recent fiasco over the "Weigh Down Workshop" ought to serve warning about where, & from whom, we choose to get materials.” He is right. She may have said some things that were true but she eventually began to teach lies and she was already in the church and it seems that you had a very hard time with what she had done!

DO not forget brethren that liars must speak enough truth to make their deceptions invisible otherwise you would not believe them. This is why Satan is wise enough to never appear as Satan but rather as an “Angel of light”. Beware and do not be mislead by his craftiness.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, January 24, 2002