What do you do when the small church has been run by a family for years, and now run behind the scenes by the women. Due to women usurping power and the leadership formerly a board system, 2 elders have resigned (father and husband of one of the women to be censured), and we are down to 2 elders that want to lead the church as God intended. Unfortunately the women and their families are threatening to leave. Any ideas on making peace, but firmly asserting the elders leadership and keeping people from leaving?

-- Anonymous, January 18, 2002

Answers

Bill...

As Mark said..."Been there...done that"....but instead of the t- shirt....I got the scars.

My advice?? Leave. It ain't worth it.

Let me tell you what will happen.

The church will split.....feelings will be hurt. Things will go alright for a year....maybe two. Then...old members will begin talking to members that left....and everyone will come to the conclusion..."It was the Preachers fault."

Then....you'll end up having to leave anyway....your fellow preachers will talk about you at their meetings.....as "causing trouble in the church." Your reputation will be tainted because in everyone's eyes....you caused the problem. Friends in the church that stand by you now....will later turn against you when they disagree with something you do. They will throw it up in your face that "YOU caused people to leave."

So in my opinion....and in my practice from now on....it's better I think to take the words of Jesus when they will not listen to sound teaching...."brush the dust off your feet" and move on.

Does it get old?? Yep!!

But then...the longest ministry Paul ever had was three years.

I assure you Bill...it's a no win situation.

I'm a "realist." I hope you appreciate honesty.....forthrightness....and the experience of someone who has been there.

-- Anonymous, January 18, 2002

Marc....

Reality Marc....reality!!

There are too many preachers who have been strewn along the wayside because they tried to "stick it out" during the tough times.

Change?? Fine! Let the Elders do it. They'll still have a life, a job, and a reputation afterwards even if it don't work out.

-- Anonymous, January 18, 2002

"They say they are behind me"

Yep....heard that one. It's always amazing just how far "behind" they are once the fur starts flying.

Like I said....when they get up in the morning after the fur flies....they still have reputations and jobs to go to.

-- Anonymous, January 18, 2002

Marc......

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!

And....it is something you get better at as you get older (and get burned)i.e., letting the elders handle the problems.

I've got a simple rule....I stay at a church as long as I can respect the Elders. The day I lose respect....is the day I start looking.

When do I lose respect?? When they start "politicking" as opposed to leading.

You hit the nail on the head Marc and you understand the gist of what I was saying.

-- Anonymous, January 19, 2002

That's a tough situation, Bill.

Been there, done that, & brought back the T-Shirt!

Unfortunately there is probably no way that you will keep the dissenting families from leaving if you stand for what is right & proper. And that may not necessarily be a bad thing.

The Bible is clear on what the elder's plan of action should be. Romans 16:17, Titus 3:10-11, Matt 18:15-17, and even I Cor 5:1-5 plainly state that such factious people must be confronted with their error privately, then with witnesses, & then before the congregation. This is what is best for both the congregation AND those who are in error. To continue things the way the are does nothing but encourage the foolish pride of the erring ones and break down the faith & witness of the church. And remember, this process isn't for punishment - it is to be done to bring about repentance so that the erring ones will submit to God's will.

Yes.....it will probably be an ugly scene. Yes..........it will be unpleasant. Yes........there will be hurt feelings. Yes............some people will leave the church.

But with God's blessing on your intent for good, there will in time be repentance, healing, learning, and GROWTH. Yes growth. The Lord does not bless a church that is not following His word, but when you align yourselves with His ways...........expect big changes - growth in spirit & in numbers - because His Word "WILL NOT return void".

I wish you the best in this & will keep your church in my prayers!

-- Anonymous, January 18, 2002

Danny,

I am not saying that I disagree with you... you have much more experience in this than I do. My only question is, if no one is willing to stick it out through the tough times, how will these congregations ever turn around. Perhaps changes need to be made... perhaps Bill can make that change... perhaps God has someone else in mind?

I quess what I am saying is that before leaving I would spend a lot of time in prayer asking God's will.

-- Anonymous, January 18, 2002

Also been there, done that. The powerful woman and her family ended up gaining control of part of the eldership and voted out the pastor and the head elder in secret, at which point about 40 people left, myself included. *Sigh*

-- Anonymous, January 18, 2002

Thanks for your thoughts. I am soon to have a meeting with the remaining elders. They say they are behind me but have things to tell me I may not like.

I want to stay here and try help turn things around. But most of you agree with what I have been told. It is probably better that I leave. So I am lifting this up in much prayer. Asking God to open hearts and give direction is the best I can do at this time, I think.

-- Anonymous, January 18, 2002

And Bill, remember this.....

It is the ELDERS job to solve this problem, not the Preacher/Evangelist's. Don't let them try to push their responsibilities on to you. If you choose to "duke it out" with the women - guide the elders and support the elders; but make them do their job. Otherwise, what they do (or don't do) is no beter than letting the women run the show!

-- Anonymous, January 18, 2002

Maybe I just realized how lucky I am to have elders like I have at the church I serve... more than once they have told me not to take the responibility or blame myself but to pass it on to them!

Not that these guys are perfect, but from what I hear from others, there are few elders out there really willing to do their job... maybe we should show more appreciation to those who are!

-- Anonymous, January 19, 2002

Brethren:

Just a few passages from the inspired word of God for your meditation while thinking of these serious problems that you sometimes face:

“The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight [thereof], not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; Neither as being lords over [God's] heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away. Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all [of you] be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble. Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time: Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you. Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world. But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle [you]. To him [be] glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.” (1 Peter 5:1- 11)

“And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church. And when they were come to him, he said unto them, Ye know, from the first day that I came into Asia, after what manner I have been with you at all seasons, Serving the Lord with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations, which befell me by the lying in wait of the Jews: [And] how I kept back nothing that was profitable [unto you], but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house, Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there: Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me. But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God. And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more. Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I [am] pure from the blood of all [men]. For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God. Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified. I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel. Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me. I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive. And when he had thus spoken, he kneeled down, and prayed with them all.” (Acta 20:17-36).

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, January 19, 2002

"They say they are behind me"

Most backstabbers are. ;-)

-- Anonymous, January 19, 2002

John;

You said: "They say they are behind me" Most backstabbers are. ;-)

I must say you are right. I have been through power struggles before. But today we had a meeting and it confirms what you said. I felt very strongly that this one elder was not against me per se, and would not ask for my resignation. But reading between the lines, you could tell he would like me to resign but just doesnt want to have it said about him that he asked for my resignation. That message came loud and clear to me.

In that meeting I kept asking for direction and developing a vision and all I got was status quo. Something to the effect of let's make sure we keep the doors open.

I just dont know what the future holds for them, but I have put it all in the Lord's hands. WE seek his will, and direction for our lives and ministry. We are contemplating part time ministry so as not to have to rely on the church for our income.

-- Anonymous, January 19, 2002

Bill,

It unfortunately sounds like the elders are making the decision for you in this matter. To be honest.........that's OK. When we ask the Lord to show us the doors we need to go into, sometimes the most beneficial ones to heed......are the closed doors.

Fortunately, when He closes one door........there's always another opened somewhere else. Keep your eyes and your options open and keep praying for the vision to see the door He will open.

-- Anonymous, January 19, 2002

Brethren:

I now present for your consideration more verses to meditate upon as you face these serious problems. I send them with a fervent prayer that God will grant that peace, joy, truth, Love and a total surrender to the will of Christ our Lord may be found where the word of God is believed, obeyed and diligently taught. And that it shall ever be so taught, believed and practiced among all of the churches of Christ.

“Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of [their] conversation.” (Heb. 13:7).

“And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.” (Acts 6:7).

“So mightily grew the word of God and prevailed.” (Acts 19:20).

“For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.” (Heb. 4:12).

“I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him [that is] from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.” (1 John 2:14)

“And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified. “ ( Acts 20:32).

“Every word of God [is] pure: he [is] a shield unto them that put their trust in him.” (Proverbs 30:5).

“But he said, Yea rather, blessed [are] they that hear the word of God, and keep it.” (Luke 11:28).

“The word which [God] sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)” (Acts 10:36).

“And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: Neither give place to the devil. Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with [his] hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.” (Eph. 4:24- 32).

“But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and [to] the evil. “ (Luke 6:35).

“Charity suffereth long, [and] is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,” (1 Cor. 13:4).

“For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, [and] hating one another. But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. [This is] a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.” (Titus 3:3-11).

“Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened [bread] of sincerity and truth.” (1 Cor. 5:8).

“Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.” (1 Cor. 14:10).

“Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: If so be ye have tasted that the Lord [is] gracious.” (1 Peter 2:1-3).

“Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.” (1 Peter 2:5).

“But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past [were] not a people, but [are] now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. (1 Peter 2:9,10).

“For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:” (1 Peter 2:15)

“For this [is] thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully. For what glory [is it], if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer [for it], ye take it patiently, this [is] acceptable with God. For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed [himself] to him that judgeth righteously: Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.” (1 Peter 2:19-25).

“For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.” (1 Cor. 14:40).

“Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.” (2 Cor. 13:11).

“Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things [are] honest, whatsoever things [are] just, whatsoever things [are] pure, whatsoever things [are] lovely, whatsoever things [are] of good report; if [there be] any virtue, and if [there be] any praise, think on these things. Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.” (Phil. 4:8,9).

“Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do. And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you; And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. [And] be at peace among yourselves. Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all [men]. See that none render evil for evil unto any [man]; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all [men]. Rejoice evermore. Pray without ceasing. In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you. “ (1 Thess. 5:11-18).

“Follow peace with all [men], and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:” (Heb. 12:14).

“My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation. For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same [is] a perfect man, [and] able also to bridle the whole body. Behold, we put bits in the horses' mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about their whole body. Behold also the ships, which though [they be] so great, and [are] driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor listeth. Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth! And the tongue [is] a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell. For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind: But the tongue can no man tame; [it is] an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be. Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet [water] and bitter? Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so [can] no fountain both yield salt water and fresh. Who [is] a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom. But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth. This wisdom descendeth not from above, but [is] earthly, sensual, devilish. For where envying and strife [is], there [is] confusion and every evil work. But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, [and] easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.” (James 3:1-18).

” Finally, [be ye] all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, [be] pitiful, [be] courteous: Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing. For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile: Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it. For the eyes of the Lord [are] over the righteous, and his ears [are open] unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord [is] against them that do evil. And who [is] he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good? But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy [are ye]: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled; But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ. For [it is] better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.” (1 Peter 3: 8-17).

“Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. “ (James 1:19,20).

“Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.” (Romans 14:19).

“Now the God of peace [be] with you all. Amen.” (Romans 15:33).

“And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you. Amen.” (Romans 16:20).

“Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you.” (Romans 16:16).

For Christ and those who love the truth in him,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, January 20, 2002

Bill, having gone through it myself, being a close friend and advisor of the pastor in question, I fully empathize with you and my prayers are with you. I'm also sending this thread to the pastor in question, so that he too may know he is not alone. Iron sharpening iron, bro. :)

-- Anonymous, January 20, 2002