I wanted to publically post my apology for my commercial post earlier. I had missed reading the Forum rule under Income.

I do have a question though. We are officially classified by the State as Wterfowl-Exhibition-BackYard breeders because we aren't considered a commercial operation - we don't have the number of birds for it. We really don't make money on our poultry - we mainly do it for genetic preservation and to provide small numbers of birds to local farmers/4-Hers etc and are happy if we get enough to cover the cost of their feed once in a while.

I am confused about how is is OK to post all sorts of links to larger commercial sites that sell this or that but if small farm operators who try to sell a few of their extra birds post info we are called commercial.

I imagine this post will soon be deleted also but I am trying to better understand this Forum and the rule. I know that there are many of you out there who have been on this forum longer than I and better understand the rules. Please enlighten me so I do not make the same mistake again when posting.

-- Trisha-MN (coldguinea@netscape.net), January 16, 2002

Answers

Trisha, did I miss something? I could see it if someone was a used car salesman, but what is the differnce if we purchase from you or refer folks to Ideal Hatcheries instead? I would love and do all the time, refer folks to others on the board. It is a different story when it is new folks, who are only here or on other forums to push their wares. But then I am probably not the one to ask, I don't seem to be able to get along with many rules :) Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), January 16, 2002.

Could you post them as "for trade" and if someone wanted to buy them, well, cash is a trade item along with other items. Hmm, maybe thats why my rabbits for sale post never got any replies. Didnt check if it had been deleted. Or howabout "weve got a bunch of extra XXXX type birds- anyone know what to do with em?" hehe find a loop hole!

-- Kevin in NC (Vantravlrs@aol.com), January 17, 2002.

It was a judgement call on my part solely on the wording of the thread. There is a very fuzzy line between a sideline and an activity for profit. General guidelines have been if someone has livestock for their own use, they can offer surplus or extras, such as buck kids. If they have something like registered stock and the prime activity is to sell breeding stock, then that falls into a commercial activity which should be a paid advertisement in the magazine, not a free one on the forum.

A thread recommending say Murray Hatchery is different than a thread from Murray Hatchery letting people know about upcoming specials or something.

From your description above and your two e-mails to me I would say you are borderline. You are a breeder, but do so not for commercial gain, but rather to perputate breeds within species so they will still be available to those who wish to raise their own. You are also willing to sell in small lots. In your e-mails you indicated you basically try to recoup your costs rather than making a profit.

Repost, but please make it clear your website is available as a service, not for commercial gain.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), January 17, 2002.

Thank you for the reply Ken. No, I don't want to risk breaking the rules on the forum and since we are borderline I will just let it go so not to confuse the issue. I was just asking for clarifcation. We do have extra birds/eggs since the birds lay many more eggs than what we ourselves use in a season, even as replacemnts for our flock.

I appreciate the response and look forward to learning more about homesteading on the forum.

-- Trisha-MN (coldguinea@netscape.net), January 17, 2002.

So if someone posts something like 'Looking for a good registered buck', I can't reply? But a backyard goatkeeper with two goats, who may have lesser quality stock and happens to have a buck kid born can?

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), January 17, 2002.

Rebekah:

In all likelihood I would not delete post against threads like that because it is a response against a specific request, besides you can contact them by private e-mail if they left a valid address. If you started a thread saying you had registered bucks for sale and it appeared you were a commercial breeder, yep, I would probably delete it. Someone who had registered stock for their own use, were offering excess to their needs, and registered their offspring thread may stay. Basically in the wording.

An example: Someone brought two posts against a thread in the archives by someone looking for mulberry tea. One was just pretty well saying they sell it with ordering information. The second was basically an infomercial on the special tea they offer, how it is blended and how wonderful it is - and only they offer it. First one stayed, second was deleted.

Trisha:

You seem to fall on the OK side of borderline, so go ahead and repost.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), January 18, 2002.

Thank you Ken. I will post my info if it fits as a response to a inquiry. I appreciate your clearning it up - I guess I was confused (again ). I appreciate all you do on the forum to keep it running smoothly and also taking the time to respond to my inquiry.

-- Trisha-MN (coldguinea@netscape.net), January 18, 2002.

You can find Trisha's website from the thread titled "Check out this family-farm website".

-- Bren (wayoutfarm@skybest.com), January 18, 2002.

So since Rebekkah, Bernice and myself are able to make a profit off of our homesteads, we are not able to offer up kids or milkers for sale? Is it not more important for new folks to see that their animal hobbies when they start on the homestead, can and will make them a good second income? I certainly don't put my sales list up on the board, but if I have a family milker or my first fresheners buck kids for sale (starting in March ;) for 50$ the day they are born, I would certainly hope that this is fine. Or perhaps a special deal, answer 100 questions and get your post cut some slack :)

-- Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), January 18, 2002.

Vicki:

Again, each situation is different. Sounds to me like you are selling your excess critters, but are not in the business of being a breeder specifically to raise animals for sale.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), January 21, 2002.

Ken, I'd question that. Seems Vicki makes HER income principally from selling stud stock. However, everyone pretty well realises that. With Rebekkah and Bernice people obviously also realise they could/might be sources for goats. I've never seen any of them overstep the bounds of ethics and do something on this forum that could be construed as trying to get free commercial advertising instead of paying for it in the magazine. Their presence on this board obliquely serves a commercial purpose, although obviously that's not why they're here - they're here to help people and to occasionally get some info themselves, like most of the rest of us. Still, if pushed by an IRS audit, they could point to their presence here to justify claiming their internet connection as a business expense - call it advertising.

If people respect their knowledge, and realise that they could supply stock and want to e-mail them directly - well, that's fine. I'd say from what you've said that if they answered on a thread saying "yes, I'll have registered kids available in two month's time, at a price of $xxx" then that would simply be answering an enquiry, supplying information. Seems to me I've seen Vicki do that, along with saying "this is where you can find listings of other registered breeders". Can't be fairer than that, can you?

-- Don Armstrong (darmst@yahoo.com.au), January 21, 2002.

Well said Don. I use my herd name as my e-mail address, just because that is how I first set up my account with Yahoo cause I was selling goats, which was the big reason I wanted the computer in the first place. If someone in my area has looked for goats and I had what they wanted, I told them by private e-mail. If not I gave them the link to ADGA or others that I knew had them for sale near them. I frequently get private e-mails and have never posted ANYTHING for sale on this site. I have never liked to see it done, but it is not my personal forum so I have never said anything about it.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), January 21, 2002.

Hmmmmm this one is tricky. OK, as I understand you Ken, I can sell excess kids but not breeding stock as that would be for a breeder for sale. So for example, our kidding season kicks off in 3 weeks. I have my show stock and milk string stock. I may have a buck year and since all my bucks would be closely related I couldn't use them. But their genetics may not be desirable. Or, I may have posted to AlpineTalk and no interest (not established breeder yet or have yrs of proven background stock) so I want to sell as excess, would selling such stock be permissable then?

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), January 21, 2002.