I have had this thought for a long time, it is one of those thoughts that you ask yourself time and again but can't come up with a good enough answer to please yourself so maybe some of you have some ideas on this.

It seems that anytime there is something major that happens in the world alot of people start talking about how they are going to move to the country and live off the land. My question is, If something did happen so that you would have to live off the land and you only had small acerage what would you grow to survive (livestock, vegetables etc..)? Also If in that situation I would think alot more people would start bartering. What do you think you would have to barter?

-- george (bngcrview@aol.com), January 11, 2002

Answers

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-- Kevin (kevinmail@earthlink.net), January 11, 2002.

We have pondered the same thought and just bought our new homestead with that in mind. We have an alternative water source (a capped spring) and alternative heat. We have a huge garden and can or dry everything. We also raise our own beef, pork and chickens. Cow comes next month for will have milk, cheese, etc. We have 16 acres but could get by on much less if the pastures are kept up well and rotated. We also have a large orchard with peach, apple, plums and hazlenuts. Also have a pond and a grape arbor. We have been stocking up and have a good size part of the basement lined with shelves so along with the canned goods we have stocked up on paper products, cleaning stuff, deodorant, first aid supplies, coffee, etc. I make my own laundry detergent. We also are buying a generator next month.

As far as bartering, we plan to begin purchasing gold coins in the next few months. Gold is always good no matter what happens to the economy or what rule your country comes under. Also, in an economic collapse, gold is the only currency that is good. We purchase in coin form because it is easy to store, in useable denominations, and easy to get rid of. Never, never invest in gold bars or boullion. You can't get rid of them in a severe circumstances such as economic collapse. Silver coins in early mintings is also a good second backup - but will never be as good as gold. The only risk you have with gold is that the government calls in all gold. This happened during WWII; although many people hid thier gold at that point and lived off it by "underground" sales and bartering with it. We also could barter with food, personal products, etc.

I am not a survialist, nor am I a gloom and doom person; however, it only takes one thing to set the spark and any person living in a country that has had a collapse of any type will tell you that it happened faster than they knew what happened and before they could prepare in any way for it. Look at the impact Sept. 11 has had...and that was only one day, a few minutes and 3 buildings.

If nothing happens, what are you out? Hey, there will always be lay offs or hurricanes, etc. If something does happen...you have peace of mind that you are as ready as you are able to be. Just something to think about.

-- Karen (db0421@yahoo.com), January 11, 2002.

Karen, I am not a doom and gloom person either but I knew alot of them the following few days after Sept 11 and guess who these people where? They were the same people who on Sept 10 thought I was foolish for raising a few hens, rabbits and having a generator for back up and growing vegetables. Funny how all of a sudden my place was the place they wanted to come to if they felt they needed to go to someplace safe where there would be some food and other things that on the 10th of Sept were foolish but after 9 a.m. on Sept 11th seemed like the smart thing to be doing. I told most of them to just go right past me and look for there help from someone else. Of course I couldn't say that to my family though.

-- george (bngcrview@aol.com), January 11, 2002.

You will have to store some food, especially grains, beans, fats (most important because hardest to grow or make yourself), canned goods and supplies, salt, medicines, etc. On small acreage one cannot be fully self-sufficient, but certainly can do a lot.Having perennial vegetables, herbs, and fruit, especially transplantable like raspberries, could be the start of a small business supplying others with the stock to grow their own. Ditto with small farm animals. What can you make, or fix, or do? Skills are tradeable. Collect the tools you will need.

Establishing good relations with your neighbors now is very important- perhaps take over a plant for their garden, establish a small trade with them (eggs for tomatoes? etc.)

Get your garden space prepared and prepare more, and yet more. Plant fruit trees, berries, medicinal and culinary herbs. Learn how to use them. Identify and try wild edible plants around you. Learn, learn, learn. Learn how to carry water, heat your house with wood, cut wood, wash clothes, make soap, work a kerosene lantern, etc. Do it now! The learning curve in an emergency can exhaust you, or be fatal if you make a mistake.

Consider what you will do if a person demands your goods- think about it now.

Good luck! A little preparation (or a lot) can go a long way to helping you, your family, and your neighbors meet whatever challenges life throws you.

-- seraphima (gardener@com.post), January 11, 2002.

Same thing I do now. A wood heater, greenhouse, 2 gardens, a chicken tractor, small rabbit hutch,worm bins, fruit orchard to make wine from and my engineering skills. Barter surpluses for things I couldn't produce of this acre and a half. For me "the something major" happened last August when I was laid off. The job market is still depressed in my area and I am in ultra consevative mode to preserve my available resources. Barter is producing about 2/3 of my budget now. The scary thing is every day I srvive with the current situation on the homeplace, I like it more and the dread I feel about returning to the rat race engineering market I was trained in grows proportionally. Every day I encounter people who view those rat race jobs as a penny from Heaven and a God send and the only path to the good life and to me its about as appealing as a slimy green hoss turd in hand. If I hear one more smart boy preach on the importance of an engineering degree in todays society, I may end up projectile hurling.

-- Jay Blair in N. AL (jayblair678@yahoo.com), January 11, 2002.

Since the attacks, my family has made it's way back to our homestead high in the Rockies. We've carved out forty acre parcels for each of our kids in which they can make it or break it. Giving them access to the machinesheds and barns, they have managed to begin construction on five, three room cabins. Admittedly they are small, but functional, and additions can be easily accomplished. Logs are easily cut, ripped and pegged into place. PermaChink will eventually be required. Composting toilets are in place. Spring water is nearby and cisterns have been dug, which can also be used for a shelter (when empty). Septic system, I just finished for each homesite is completed and inspected.

Planting gardens next Spring and participation in auctions will help them get over the rough spots. It's possible that the grandkids will find there way here, and that's expected next summer.

I'd thought about gold and quickly dismissed it. Can't barter with it, b/c no one could peg a value on it, if the banking system goes down. We hoard silver coins, which everyone understands the value of.

Yep, it's possible to do it on small acreage, but you might be better off with more than you need, depending on how many relatives plan on making your place their next summer destination.

-- matt johnson (wyo_cowboy_us@yahoo.com), January 11, 2002.

At my age I am not going to worry too much. Let me tell you what actually happened. In 1930 I was 11 years old . We visited my aunt and uncle in Michigan. They had a 40 acre farm in southeast Michigan ., livestock 3 horses for work 3 cows 40 sheep 3or 4 pigs a few chickens .He had a large garden and a small orchard . He planted quite a bit of corn for livestock feed. had a pasture forsheep and cows . the horses were never allowed to run in pasture . they were fed corn ,oats and hay in their stalls . He sold a fat pig and some sheep to buy Kerosene and what groceriest that they needed. They were completely indepent. they swapped labor at harvest etc . one time while we were there he hooked up the team to a bobsled and took all us kids to town. i thought I was in heaven. I have dreamed of this ever since . Big George

-- George Wilson (cwwhtw@aol.com), January 11, 2002.

Note: the value of one troy ounce of gold (1/14 pound by weight) has been equivalent to the value of a quality men's suit of clothes throughout history.

-- Kevin (kevinmail@earthlink.net), January 11, 2002.

Hey there George, potatoes and greens. The Irish survived on these alone when times were hard. Here's a little story....when the first Scotch-Irish came to America, the original settlers that were here thought potatoes were poisinous (although the Indians ate them). The Irish had a settlement and survived the first winter eating nothing but potatoes. Word got out and the the rest of the people (especially in the South) gave the old spud a try and the rest is history. That's why I always plant 2 crops of potatoes and have greens in the garden too. Kale will even withstand snow! And for good measure I have some perennial veggies in the garden too.

-- Annie (mistletoe6@earthlink.net), January 11, 2002.

Hi Annie! I,m Irish-Scotch and grew up in potato country in Maine. I eat them almost everyday. I'm curious what are your perennial veggie crops. I think I remember one crop as being asperagas (sp) never could spell that lol I planted some and did it by the book and have yet to get any it has been three years since I planted. I think I'll start all over again since I know moles have been at the sun chokes and these two plates are close to each other.

-- george (bngcrview@aol.com), January 11, 2002.

Hey George, I've got a big bed of asparagus, gonna have artichokes which will last for 5 years, and strawberries which I should have identified as a fruit. Oh, and plenty of poke growing on this hill if I get desperate! :) (Although I have learned how to cook it so I wouldn't get sick on it or kill myself). I tried to grow rhubarb once, but it's too hot on this hill and let's say it didn't like it up here. It looked pitiful. You all are lucky up North, I love rhubarb. I'm really starting to get into researching the way the old mountain people survived year after year around here and on what kind of foods and how they stored and kept enough to replant the next year. Trying to get in the mindset of not ever to have to buy seeds, but keep em going year after year. Wish I would have known both my grandmas. They were great gardeners and knew how to do all the old time stuff I'm trying to learn. It would be so much simpler to just buy the seeds, but hey, that would be too easy! :) I am going to try an experiment with my tomatoes before the first frost come on here in early Nov. I've got a south facing hill and they say tomatoes are a perennial......

-- Annie (mistletoe6@earthlink.net), January 11, 2002.

I'm a beginning homesteader, and I, too am wondering how to make it when the economy or government crumbles. I just purchased the "Emergency Preparednes and Survival Guide" from Backwoods Home and find it very informative. As I contemplate making that huge investment in a year or more of food and supply storage, I wonder how to plan for me and my husband when I know that 2 years supplies for us will dwindle pretty durn fast when my UNprepared, but much loved extended family, and his, flee the cities to our rural place; hungry, possibly sick, hurt and desperate. How can one prepare for that?

-- Debbie in Mo (risingwind@socket.net), January 12, 2002.

I believe that NAFTA is causing our standard of living in the USA to more closely match those of what we used to call 3rd world countries. I believe that life in the 3rd world countries really is homesteading at its best and one can learn a lot by living in Central America for a month or two.

In addition, when you don't have much, you learn to do without. Who ever said that we have a natural born right to running water and in two different temperatures??? It does not take one long to learn how to adapt.

This leads me to my next item which is: "So what if you learn how to be a super duper homesteader and the bottom falls out?"

All it means is that you will have more to share with those who are in need.

The alternative solution (not sharing) of living fat and happy sounds too much like the life of the fat guy in the bible who would not share even with the beggars. He might have had a happy stay on this planet, but eternity was a real bummer.

-- Gary from Mn (hpysheep@midwestinfo.com), January 12, 2002.

Hey, George, my post bounced back from your e-mail address and it said it was because you were not accepting mail from me. Don't you like me??

-- Debbie in Mo (risingwind@socket.net), January 12, 2002.

George, I think the answer to your question would vary a lot depending on geographic location and personal knowledge. My husband got laid off last January and we lived in North Centeral IL on 3.28 acres. We were homesteading there and had a booming meat goat business, sold produce and eggs at the local farmers market and to various friends. When it came down to the question of if we could survive there off the land, our answer was NO, on that little land. We were blessed and my husband got a job in western Washington, including a raise and a paid move. We were also able to buy 13 acres here. We have stayed out of debt and once again are facing possible layoff. Here we are confident we can survive off the land. Part of the land is wooded, we have a spring for H2O, goats for milk and meat, a pig, chickens, and ducks and a large garden. We both have many skills that lend to homesteading. Hubby grew up on a farm in MN and I grew up in the wilds of Nepal where electricity, motors of any kind, and things that are considered normal here didn't exist. It is amazing what can be made with sticks and stones. I know we could build a threshing floor and equipment to thresh grain by hand if necessary or build a hand mill if needed. Bartering, not only goods, but services were the norm and I am very greatful that I watched and participated in the life around me as I grew up, and I learned many skills that may be invaluable someday. We are in this for the long haul, regardless what happens and hope to be able to help others along the line if we can. Darlene

-- Darlene in W WA (tomdarsavy@cs.com), January 12, 2002.

IMHO, having a small amount of land (10 acres or less) and raising beef is mutually exclusive. If you want meat and don't have over 10 acres you are much better off with rabbits, chickens, even goats. Their is a good book about this written in 1864 called "Ten Acres Enough."

-- fred (fred@mddc.com), January 12, 2002.

Remember: Everyone thought Noah was nut....until it rained!

-- Karen (db0421@yahoo.com), January 12, 2002.

First get to know your land, what is already there, and what it's possibilities are. Learn the uses and to use what is already there. Always know the use of whatever you have.

Second, when landscaping, landscape with edibles first, then ornamentals. People will always be willing to pay for beauty in their life (like entertainment), but only after they have eaten.

-- R. (thor610@yahoo.com), January 12, 2002.

There are a lot of good answers here. Any of us that raise our own meat and veggies already have a big start on the rest of the world. Right now, I trade fresh pork and eggs for a number of things. Labor is a good trade too. Seems like neighbors and friends are always willing to help each other. I'm afraid that if the world got really bad, I would welcome everyone and try to feed everyone. I couldn't turn anyone away!

-- cowgirlone (cowgirlone47@hotmail.com), January 12, 2002.

Yes, Yes. Small acreage. Well, when the Y2K thing came through, that wass the spark that ignited the ddessire to homesteadd. At that time, my place was 1/2 acre and was in suburbia. Moved since then to 3.65 acress, which would be defined as a small homestead by all means. On it, there are 100 rabbits, 8 chickens, 2 dogs and 2 cats, 2 goats (milkers) and a horse. Now the homestead is not self sufficient- but pretty close to it- in fact, 1/2 the land here is untouched- just wood lot. In my approach to self suffiency, there are a number of things to consider. Heat. Needs to be for cooking and heating, reliable and relatively parts free. Wood is the obvious choice, and thats what I did- installed a potbelly stove for 100 percent of heating, easily 100 percent of cooking. Light. I would say this is by far the hardest. I mean real live long term self suffiency doesnt mean truck 200 gallons of lamp oil to premisis. Or buy stock in Duracell. Light would best be provided by up at dawn, down at dusk. Perhaps a backup wind mill capable of powering some emergency bulbs. Food. Garden, raise meat (rabbits can eat grass and hay and leaves aand do ok), milk goats (also able to almost support themselves), and harvest wild edibles. Food is actually a pretty easy one, canning preserves, Drying preserves, etc. The rabbit manure feeds the garden. Water. Boil it if need be, you can carry a fair amount from a stream on your back or a bicycle pulled cart (or horse). Tools. Lots of manual powered tools for all those jobs you took for granted (drilling a hole, sawing down a tree, etc). Barter goods? The BEST barter good is one you dont have to store. Its your mind and your body. If the proverbial shot hit the fon, you might want a skill. Like having the know how to blacksmith, or get a water powered gristmill (or sawmill) up and running. Or the knowledge of wild plants- you sell/ barter your skills for food, hay, tools, etc. AND honestly, if someone told me they would pay me in gold coins if only I showed them what plants to gather, I would tell them to buzz off- might do it for free, but gold, for actual useful items, wouldnt work in my book. I mean look at it this way: if you had all the gold in Alaska and tried to buy you neighbors last can of beans, he/ she wouldnt sell it. You might be able to do some limited things with gold, but skills are MUCH more valuable. AND, perhaps the most debatable: defense. My thought on that one is: is someone really really needed my food so bad that they would die without it, they would find a way to get it. Try to get them to help you, show them how to get their own food. Defend it if you have to. Run away if you its time to run. Your homesteading skills will work elsewhere... as long as you are alive.

-- Kevin in NC (Vantravlrs@aol.com), January 12, 2002.

Hello George,

One of the tragdies the the small farmer suffered during the depression was the fact that he could not pay the mortgage on his land. Loans were only short term usually five years or less. To make money to help pay the mortgage people invested in a program that allowed them to, own ten shares of stock for every one they actually bought. The difference was held by the broker. This lured many people into believing that they could make a lot of money. When the stock market crashed, so did their investments. Since they depended on the dividends to pay their short term mortgages, they lost their land. Point being, it is better to own your land free and clear before anything happens as you may not be able to pay for it during a time of distress.

Gold USE to be a good investment up until about seven years ago. The measure of gold's value can be measured in value of bread. During Jesus's time you could buy 300 loaves of bread with an ounce of gold. Today, I am not sure. Gold has been fluctuating around the $300.00 range for awhile. There are two reasons that it has not moved past the $300.00 range. The first one is when USSR collasped. The Russian government in its attempted to restore the economy, sold its gold bullion. USSR held on temporarily using its final resources but, eventually failed. The market however, became flooded with extra gold. The second and probably the main reason for gold not going up in value in the mining operations in the western USA. A system was developed and made economical enough that could extract microscopic pieces of gold from old mines. This system has been so successful that USA became number one in gold production for the first time since the turn of the century. Africa is now second! So, with an extra million pounds of gold brought into the market every year, gold is not going to be worth much more than it all ready is.

If a person takes his acreage and grows opened pollinated crops for himself and his livestock. Raises a small variety of animals for food and reproduction, I am sure that he will survive even the hardest of times. One would have to give up some of the customary luxuries but, these would depend on your bartering skills.

As we look at the world events today, we all can see a considerable bit of uncertainity. A person would have to be completely niave not to realize that his survival may soon only depend on his ability to become self-sufficient. Recently Enron Industries filed for backruptcy. Enron paid its employees with stock. When the employees learned of Enron's upcoming demise, they of course attempting to cash the stock before it became devalued. Enron's contract agreement with the stock option deal did not allow the employees to cash in their stock until retirement. When backruptcy was filed the stock went from $85.00 a share to just under $1.00 a share.

Ford just laid off 35,000 employees and closed five plants in North America. They will no longer produce the luxury car, the Lincoln Contential.

How will the people from Enron and Ford recover. Many of them were making $30.00 or more an hour in wages. What about the trickling down within the economy of Enron Industries and the Ford Plants. The localities of these businesses will suffer emmensily as no longer with the employees be able to buy the things they are use to. Pretty soon those areas will turn into ghost towns!

Hoarding and stockpiling is only a temporary way of combating the imminient future. Once your extra rolls of toilet paper run out or that year's supply of emergency foodstuff is gone, then what? That is why you should focus your energies, monies, and efforts on getting your acreage ready to be self producing. If you keep animals, you will have to be able to feed them. If you do not have money, how will you provide for the livestock. If you have enough land you should plant the grains needed to substain your animals. If not, just raise a small amount of them like I do for food and reproducing. Grow with open pollinated seeds, so that you can save the seeds from each harvest. Next year, you may not be able to afford seeds or maybe the will not even be available. Grow as much as you possible can. Dig up your lawn and plant potatoes, if you have to. But, do not depend on what you have hoarded or stockpiled. Times may be so hard that even those supplies will quickly vanish!

Sincerely,

Ernest

-- http://communities.msn.com/livingoffthelandintheozarks (espresso42@hotmail.com), January 12, 2002.

We've seen flatlanders (polite term for city people) try to survive in alpine environments and failed. I've seen people surrounded by wheat fields unable to conceive of eating grain that doesn't come from a box. There will be a certain number who don't want to live off the land, but rather take from others that have already done their part.

You must be able to grow crops that are easily converted to immediate food supplies....wheat, corn, hay, alfalfa.

For those who asked about composting toilets, there are three good mfgrs. www.envirolet.com, www.biolet.com, and www.sun-mar.com

-- matt johnson (wyo_cowboy_us@yahoo.com), January 12, 2002.

Annie, what is poke?

-- george (bngcrview@aol.com), January 12, 2002.

I bet Annie meant Poke Salad. :o)

-- Kenneth in N.C. (wizardsplace13@hotmail.com), January 12, 2002.

Hey George, Kenneth was right, I was referring to poke salad, or as us Southerners say, poke sallet. Before you make the sallet, it's commonly refered to as poke weed. The only time it is to be eaten, is in the spring time. The early first shoots should be around 3 inches high when you harvest them. Par boil them about 3 times and then "fry" them in a skillet with a little bacon grease and onions. The poke weed is in the nightshade family and the roots should never be eaten. The leaves, when large, can also be quite toxic, along with the berries. (although I think birds will eat them and what a mess). You know when ya think about it, these early settlers had some guts to try out these wild plants. There had to be some adventureous type who tried to eat the root of the poke weed and probably got really sick or worse!

-- Annie (mistletoe6@earthlink.net), January 12, 2002.

Annie: Nightshade, aka deadly, part of the atropa belladonna family. Poisonous plant with reddish flowers and black berries. Active principle of atropine. Used mainly for sedative and spasmolytic effects on gastrointestinal tract.

I'm certain it killed a few settlers, before it's good effects were learned.

-- matt johnson (wyo_cowboy_us@yahoo.com), January 12, 2002.

I have to add to something Ernest said. I have the utmost respect for him and really enjoy his input in the forum. He is correct about investing in gold as an investment for today; however, it is the BEST investment in bad times or in economic collapse. You don't want to invest for the sake of investing...you need to buy gold coin in usuable denominations for FUTHER use. In all the history of the world, gold has been the only consistant monetary unit that is useable in economic collapse. It is especially important since the US is no longer on the Federal Reserve System (gold held to backup its currency). When the money is gone..the only thing to financially bargain with is gold. Gold will also increase in value enormously at that time -- history has shown that as much as 300%. Gold could be used to buy feed for those animals, pay the mortgage, etc.

As far as feeding your livestock goes, remember that years ago everyone had a horse or cow and not all the people lived on 50 acres and were capable of making grain. There are lots of alternatives. For one, despite what people will tell you, livestock can do very well on small acreage. One acre of good pasture, fenced off in smaller plots and rotated, can sustain a cow, or a horse, or 3-4 goats. You can also feed any type of livestock sugar beets, magels, chard, etc. that can be grown in your own garden. This is what people did in the winters when pasture was not available. Not everyone could make hay! Look at some the older books on raising livestock for some excellent ideas on feeding them on small acreage.

Planned well, 5 acres could give you all the self-sufficiency you need. Don't let anyone tell you it can't be done. I know because we did it when we lived in NC -- probably did it better than here on our 16 acres in VA because it was planned out so much better. If in doubt just ask one of the old timers -- they can tell you how it was done in the depression.

-- Karen (db0421@yahoo.com), January 12, 2002.

By the way, Ford has not layed off 35,000 employee nor closed plants yet. This is going to be done over the next 3 years and includes its foreign holdings as well. It is part of Ford's reoganization for bringing it's holdings back into the Detroit area. Downsizing of sorts.

It is bad..but not as bad as what you might hear at this time. Oh course, if you work for Ford at one of the plants that are closing, I am sure it is bad for you. There will certainly be a trickled down effect since lots of other companies do business with Ford...but we have several months before we see the impact. One more reason to start getting prepared.

-- Karen (db0421@yahoo.com), January 12, 2002.

Gold won't buy a thing, if no one will accept it. Call your mortgage company and see if they'll accept your payment in gold. Or take a Kruggerrand, Maple Leaf or American Eagle to your little local bank (outside of big city & suburbs) and try to cash it in. People keep believing this crap about how valuable gold is. Platinum is rarer and more valuable than gold, but there's no market for it. No one will accept it for payment. Silver is acceptable everywhere.

-- matt johnson (wyo_cowboy_us@yahoo.com), January 12, 2002.

George, I haven't read all the responses yet to your question, but will!..My answer to your "What could you do to survive on small acreage?" is PRAY (lol)........seriously, faith in yourself, faith in the REAL powers that be. I wish you the best and will be thinking of you as I do what you are concerned about. I will be living on 8 acres beginning Spring 2002. Job disappeared. Animals need home. I need home. Guess the wooded acres I have will have to do! Remember, there is plenty to go around. You will NOT do without what you REALLY need. Guess that's called faith, but if that's whatcha got that's whatcha got. Best to you,

-- Susan in Northern Michigan (cobwoman@yahoo.com), January 12, 2002.

It seems as if plenty of God-fearing people have starved to death in the past. George, better put away some open-pollinated seed to go along with your faith!

-- Elizabeth (ekfla@aol.com), January 12, 2002.

I've been homesteading most of my life. I don't understand why people would live any other way, but I suppose we all have our epiphanies at different times ;-)

I did pretty well all along, but it takes years to become easy. I have been on my current farm for 15 years. Every year it gets better ;-) It's not easy to have great garden soil, learn optimal planting ideas for your microclimate, do food preservation, sew, cut wood, build, etc. Everything has a learning curve. Sooooo....the sooner you start, the better off you will be!

We have some folks staying here right now. They want to find a homestead by June and start their own place. I will be very surprised if they manage to become and remain homesteaders. They remind me just how far my normal life is not at all like the rest of the US. I tend to forget that ;-)

A mindset of frugality, creativity, enjoying hard work, PLANNING, practicality and stuff like that is necessary for the long haul. I made mistakes along the way. It's a good thing my life did not depend on getting everything perfect on the first try!

One of my happiest moments was paying off the house and farm last October...that feels like true wealth ;-)

You can see pics of my underground house, the farm, the house my daughter is building and find zillions of good links at my website... http://www.homestead.com/peaceandcarrots/

-- Wendy S Martin (wsm311@aol.com), January 13, 2002.

I just wanted to add to Ernest's post about Enron. The people that were already retired and living off of the income from their Enron stock have been hurt the most. Enron did not pay their employees in stock, but they used the stock as bonuses, and retirement. The employees were allowed complete control of their retirement stock several years ago, thankfully most of them (not everyone) moved their stock, didn't keep it all in one basket. (I do have one friend that lost all of his retirement) Last October, the employees were handed a memo that said they could not cash in any of their stock for about a month. Meanwhile the top hands at Enron were selling theirs right and left, over a billion dollars worth. All of the employees have suffered, the young ones might be able to find work. But the others that depended on that money to live on, will suffer the most. I don't think it is just Enron, it's hard to find a company that actually cares for it's employees. Everyone should be ready for a downfall. It is not too soon to prepare for a disaster. The more you do for yourself, the better. Good luck to all!

-- cowgirlone (cowgirlone47@hotmail.com), January 13, 2002.

Gee whiz George, I would love to sit you down and listen to you talk about your life, what things could be told? I try to read everything about how folks survived the depression years, and here you are , such a resource right at our fingertips! I think about this question often, even so much as training my kids in things that most other kids do not know how to do, spinning, weaving, sewing, cooking -these sorts of things. Although I am not yet homesteading to the degree I'd like, I try and maintain the right outlook in my life. I have managed to purchase 13.5 acres just this past summer. I don't have any money to develop it, but I do have a camper, and if pressed to it could stay in the camper on the place. It is partially wooded, and has about 7 liveable acres. I could barter clothing manufacture, lessons, or spinning wheels or looms. I also plan on learning how to build shaker style chairs and rockers with woven seats. Defending my property will have to be done with the only weapon I have at my disposal- the Bow and Arrow, and ingenuity. Thanks for asking this question, I have enjoyed the responses, and by the way I am Scots- Irish as well.....is there a pattern here?

-- Sandie in Maine (peqbear@maine.rr.com), January 14, 2002.

Hi George, tried to respond to your e-mail but it keeps bouncing back saying that you are not accepting mail from my e-mail? I will try again later...

-- Sandie in Maine (peqbear@maine.rr.com), January 14, 2002.

I have been watching this thread with interest to see what all people would have to say. After spending quite a bit of time in Haiti, I am convinced that anything is possible if you have a small holding and a little inventiveness and are willing to work.

I have seen people get by with so very little that I find I am no longer threatened by the thought of a big collapse. I am trying to improve my foraging skills, since I would not be willing to shoot anyone who would come to my place hungry. Beans, corn, some greens and a pot to cook them in......the ability to make fire and a few hand tools to make shelter. Everything else is extra.

As far as bartering, let's not forget our skills and knowledge. IMHO hoarding gold is useless because I can not use it as a tool and I can not eat it. If we are reduced to needing to be real survivalists, gold would be just something to have to carry around, worry about or defend.

I believe that anyone who is not taking a look at their seed supply and how secure it is, needs to get educated and start saving seed. It is under a great deal of threat and will be the ultimate control issue of all times. I do not consider myself a doom and gloomer, just a realist who looks at what is happening in the world and realizes we are walking a tightrope.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), January 14, 2002.

You're going to have to come up with cash to pay lot rent(taxes). You know you never really own YOUR land.

-- Brian (notiller64@yahoo.com), March 01, 2002.