The question on MANDATORY RETIREMENT posted on December 22, has invoked much discussion and suggestions. I am posting the same question on a clean sheet from a different perspective (or let me say from an overseas District - the 15th Episcopal District, Cape Annual Conference). The General Conference in 1996 has put in place the A.M.E.C. RETIREMENT PROGRAM for Pastors and Presidng Elders. Under this program, the CHURCH will make contributions for eligible participants (we had to fill out a form and return it to our Bishop - which we did). On of the answers asked and answered on a Q and A sheet specifically referred to age (75 and over) and participation in this program which said yes.

Subsequent to this, the General Conference in 2000 legislated that ministers older than 75 shall not receive an appointment in 2004. The spirit of this legislation was that those who are already 75 and those that will be 75, must have at least 4 years to prepare for retirement.

Now, the most senior Presiding Elder, who has reached the retirement age, did not receive an appointment at our Annual Conference and has no other income. He has served the church faithfully for more that 54 years! Can anybody shed some light on the overseas District's participation in this sponsored program and will the retired P.E. receive any benefit from this program?

God Bless

-- Anonymous, December 26, 2001

Answers

This is not an easy question to answer. Has the retired been discussed before? or any indication given that this step will be taken? How much older than 74 is the Elder? Is he capable of serving a charge or perform the required duties on an Elder?

-- Anonymous, December 27, 2001

The person in question, is 85 years old and has still been very effective. As a matter f fact, his Presding Elder District has made a 100% financial report with no controversial matters in his district. This however cannot be said from some of the other districts in the Conference. I am at no time trying to make comparisons as it is not the matter in question.

It must however be said that the Bishop has asked the P.E. to retire (reason unknown - as I have said his work was in order). The P.E. however, felt that his health was/is good and that he wants to continue and indicated in the conference the same. When the appointments was read out, his name never surfaced to the amazement and disappointment of the majority of the Annual Conference. Questions now are asked, how is the P.E. (after giving his life for 54 years to the church) going to live? He has not received a cent from the Conference. Is this how the Church is going to do with all our Elderly and Elders?

Can anybody tell me (us) what is happening and going on in the Sponsored Retirement Program for Pastors and Presiding Elders? I am asking this, for I can see no other way this particular matter is going.

God Bless

-- Anonymous, December 29, 2001

As sad as this situation is for the former Presiding Elder, at 85 years of age it is time for him to retire. He should have retired at age 75 in accordance with the law of the church. If we are to have a church law, we must all obey that law. If you make exceptions, the law becomes of no effect. Provisions ought to be made for this man but you can't give him an appointment due to his personal need. The needs of the church supercede all the individual needs. This problem is not Mandatory Retirement, but the lack of an adequate Retirement System and lack of planning on the part of the individual.

Blessings

Pastor Paris

-- Anonymous, December 29, 2001

Yes, the gentleman is 85; however, the discipline says that this retirement law will take into effect in 2004, not 2002. (AME Discipline, p. 137) Accordingly, the discipline further states that if the Annual Conference has a need, that person may be retained.

It would appear that this gentleman has grounds to challenge this non- appointment.

As for the law, if Jesus followed the law to the letter, no healing would have taken place by him on the Sabbath, and the lepers would not have been healed either because, according to the law, they were unclean. It is the spirit of the law that really counts.

-- Anonymous, December 29, 2001

Jesus didn't have presiding elders either. Check out what Jesus said to the Pharisees is a better comparison my friend. The AME church is not a welfare organization for people who do nbot plan for retirement. The bishop was right in leaving this man without an appointment. There is no way that an 85 year old man or woman can be an effective pastor or presiding elder. What happens is that young men and women will not enter the AME Church ministry and we as a church get old and die.

Blessing,

Pastor Paris

-- Anonymous, December 29, 2001

I still stick by my words and those of the discipline. Based on the post, the gentleman in question was/is a good elder and it appears that there were no health issues, just his age was the only factor. If the elder was healthy and was a good leader, until 2004 he could/should have be retained. THAT'S THE LAW!!!! (at least for now)

As for young persons entering the AME ministry, after this law goes into FULL effect in 2004, there should room for others, which is one of the reasons for the law. The problem with the young ministers thing is the educational requirement mandated by the church without any financial backing, which is a personal soap-box of mine. The educational requirement is wonderful and necessary, but without financial assistance from the church, ministers will be less apt to uproot their families and be financial contributors to the household to attend an accrediated seminary. I have been a victim of this and I don't have the "liabilities" of a family. I am enrolled in seminary and it has taken me years to complete, between part-time and full- time studies, part-time and full-time employment. I sat out of school two semesters and I promised God that I would not ever sit out again until I graduated. Thanks be to God, come May 11, 2002, I will walk across the stage of the ITC with a M.Div., ready to serve God, the church and God's people. I'll have loans to pay back, but I will have done what the Lord asked me to do.

I am not worried about the older preachers being in my way. God will make a way for me . . .

-- Anonymous, December 29, 2001

In every profession, one is required to prepare themselves for that profession. Albeit, they earn scholarships by various means. Engineers must provide for their Engineering degrees, Teachers must provide for Education degrees, Doctors must pay their way through medical School; why does some preachers want others to pay for their education? Most of the pastors that I know with advanced degrees paid their own way. Am I missing something?

Blessings,

Pastor Paris

-- Anonymous, December 29, 2001

If there is a way that we could help seminarians I would love for that to happen. I received my M.Div degree from Princeton Seminary and when I entered seminary I was a single mother with a 12 year old daughter. We literally left all of her furniture in our New York apartment to move into 2 rooms in family housing at Princeton. I could not afford to store it and go to school. I carried a full load, worked and was assistant pastor at a church. Plus being a mom. It was exhausting. I thank God for my daughter who loved me and understood. Now at 24 she is the co-founder of our church in Montana. There are sacrifices that we must make to serve God, but he always provides a way for those he has called to ministry. I am thankful for my seminary education and now that I am pastoring full time again, realize that I must continue my studies in order to be the best pastor that I can for my congregation. Rev. Paris is right many of us payed for our own education, I did receive academic scholarships, but I took out loans. I have no regrets. By the way my daughter will be pursuing a PH.D in theology. I was worried that she was missing out on things when I was in school, because she would spend hours in the library with me. Now I realize this was all part of God's plan. The question of seminary financing will become even more of a hot topic, now that it is mandatory to have a seminary degree in order to get elders orders. Do not dispair. God always equips those who seek after him.

-- Anonymous, December 30, 2001

One other thing, Mr. Hill mentioned uprooting families to attend seminary. Our families will be uprooted for that is the Methodist tradition. As clergy we will be moved at some point. You also mentioned families "as a liability" families give pastors strength, love and encouragement! And when God calls one to ordained ministry he does so with the family in mind and will provide for everyone. I have seen this so clearly with my own daughter. Since she was 12 she has said she wanted a PH.D in theology. And now that she is A.M.E she has a Bishop who is offering guidance.

-- Anonymous, December 30, 2001

Rev. Paris, I think you are totally missing the point here. THE LAW (for now) stays. He should have received an appointment. His work was more than satisfactory. His health was excellent. Yes, Rev. Hill. you are right: we cannot push aside our Elders. We, the younger ministers must wait for the Lord to bring opportunities and not connive our way in. This man has really toiled for so many years. Fortunately, I know him as family-member. My Grandfather, my Dad, and four more Uncles (including the Elder in question), a nephew of myself, has given more than 200 years of Pastoral service to the Church in South Africa!

It is also significant that the question as to the sponsored Retirement Program is not been addressed.Is there anybody (including the Rev. Paris) that can shed light on the matter. Are we in the Fifteenth Episcopal District included in this program or is just for the American Districts? Can we submit requisitions as to the benefits?

Rev. William C Legolie, II

-- Anonymous, January 01, 2002

One answer to the issue of newer ministers not having sufficient opportunity to pastor is to church plant. The church's mission is to make disciples, and a large part of that is to plant new churches and increase the membership of old ones. Between new churches being established, and older ones growing and thus requiring additional associate pastors, new positions should be opening up all the time. Older and younger leaders need not compete.

Take the example of my father's church plant. I grew up in rural northern California in the country. Now the area isn't the country anymore. Urban sprawl has ensured the place is now full of people and traffic jams. As new communities were built, businesses and infrastructure were included in the plan...but very few churches. So a church 15 miles away mothered a new one which my dad pastored. Places like California are exploding with population. New churches should be sprouting up among the new arrivals all the time.

And did I mention the constant need for missionaries overseas? The 10/40 window is that area of the world between 10 degrees latitude north of the equator, and 40 degrees south. Much of the world's population lives here, and there has been virtually no Gospel preached there since the 1st century. Ministers of all ages will have more than enough chance to work until Jesus comes.

Now here's the catch: As long as minsters compete for the wealthy churches, the safe churches, the big churches, the comfortable churches, we'll always be trying slice the same old pie more and more thinly. Sister Denise Rogers has the right idea by "boldly going" where only a few have gone before.

This type of ministry requires cross-cultural skills and a pioneer toughness, as well as a huge reliance on God. But it is what the 1st century church did. The Jerusalem church was only the first in a movement that in time encompassed the whole Roman world.

-- Anonymous, January 01, 2002

I have read, with much interest, the various opinions raised on the issue. The fact of the matter is that we discriminate not on the basis of skin colour, race, etc. but that we discriminate against the elderly in the ordained Christian Ministry. Also, we completely miss the core discussion point raised by the Rev. William Legolie: Are clergy in the overseas districts also included in the connectional retirment program, and can our elderly clergy also apply for the benefits???? That is the question. The fact of the matter is that all of us are guilty of sins of omission and commission. Every 4 years we meet and make laws for the Connection, but we are guilty of selective morality. Certain parts of the AME Discipline, that suits bishops in a particular situation, are applied as the so-called positive law and in some equally deserving situations nobody pays any attention to these laws. When my late paternal grandfather (Rev. Dr. Willem Moses Jod) reached the age of 70 years (after he had retired as a schools language subject advisor 5 years earlier), the family met at their residence for the Thanksgiving Day that year and discussed with him considering retirement from the ordained Christian Ministry at the seat of the next Annual Conference. He was enjoying good health but we had realised that nowadays congregations and (even old bishops) prefer younger and more energetic ministers with modern skills (such as computer literacy). Thank God that he retired as the family requested. A couple of years later, 3 Presiding Elders (peers of my grandfather) were forcefully retired. Their families were crossed and angry with the church, alleging that the church has humiliated these stalwards of faith. When this happened I was pastoring in London, UK but deep in my heart I was thankful to God that our grandfather heed to our plea. To this date, the said 3 Presiding Elders and their families are still to make peace with this compulsory retirement. The pastorate is a powerful position and we know that power is sweet, but families must be in constant dialogue to read the early signs and encourage relatives to retire before the family is hurt by similar non-appointment.

-- Anonymous, January 02, 2002

This is an excellent discussion which points out several areas of our church that are in desperate need for revision. 1. We need a retirement system for ministers that will be able to support them in their retired years. Participation in this system must be 100% and mandatory for all ministers. 2. We must adher to the law of the church or change the law.

I suggested that "Retired but not Tired" ministers be encouraged to plant new congregations based on my experience in planting an AME Church, Cornerstone AME of The Colony, Texas. A fruitful area, Cornerstone was planted under Bishop Pruitt and PE A. L. Brown; I was blessed to be the founding pastor. The Holy Spirit inspired Bro. David Glass and myself, simultaneously but seperately, (we did not know each other at the time), to organize and AME Church in The Colony, Texas. Cornerstone was founded on the first Sunday in July 1990. Bishop Pruitt, Presiding Elder A.L. Brown and I as the pastor and David as the Chairman of the Steward Board organized the Church. Bishop Pruitt, PE Brown, and Bro. David Glass have all been called home to the Lord. The church grew and prospered in both ministries and money. I made mistakes as a young (in ministry) pastor, however the Lord blessed and we made tremendous progress. Satan came and I fought the devil with natural weapons rather than the Spirit. For the good of the church, I accepted a transfer after seven years and the current pastor took over. The Church continues today. As a young (in ministry) pastor, I needed the guidance and counsel of several older more experienced (read that retired) ministers as members of the church to minister to ME, (emphasis mine). Simply put, they would have been able to recognize the devil and counsel me to use the Spiritual weapons rather than the natural. Simply put, one needs the wisdom and experience of the aged and the vim and vigor of youth. To make a long story short, I lacked the wisdom on how to handle Satan; and Satan will come to any church that is doing the work of the Lord. Make no mistake about that. Had I used the weapons of the Spirt but that is a long story. I and my family was wounded in spirit but God was and is good. He placed me in a place of healing; sent people into my life to restore and reinvigorate; and then sent me to my current assignment which I accepted with some degree of reluctance at first. Looking back, God took care of me and my family althiugh we did not think so at the time. I tell this part of the story to share with you what I learned about planting churches, the strength of youth and the wisedom of the elders make an excellent team. My greatest lesson was that I learned to trust in God. God is good, all the time; and all the time God is good. Thsi is not the whole story, but it would take book to tell it all.

Blessings, Pastor Paris

-- Anonymous, January 02, 2002