I find it interesting that the AMEC takes personal pride in advancing educational opportunities for its members yet the one area which is founded on Christian education and church training is curiously the least attended, i.e. local Lay meetings. Individual members would better understand their role and function if they took the time to learn about church polity, theology and AME history. As many of you already know the Lay Mission is quite simple - teaching and training members to become effective AME church workers. Church School focuses on discipleship. Missionaries focus on proselyzing/evangelism. Only, the Lay is charged with providing church training. Church growth can be accomplished with a literate lay population working together with a spiritually enlightened clergy.

Perhaps if we devote more time in our Lay meetings with actually training our people as oppossed to a disproportionate time alloted to talking about upcoming meetings and a myraid of business matters, more of our members would find it interesting to attend. My local Lay organization meets once a month. Time for training is typically exhausted after coverage of the business matters. Does your local lay meet only once a month? I'm thinking about proposing meeting twice a month. One meeting would be reserved strictly for business (as I 've stated before certain business discussions can be handled via teleconference) and the other strictly for training members about the inner workings of the AMEC. If the lay is about training, then let us train our people and dedicate our call and purpose to that objective. QED

-- Anonymous, December 19, 2001

Answers

Bill, as you know, the Church was founded by Jesus for the Lay folk to be served by the clergy. (Now of course Jesus made no divisions between lay and clergy.) But the point is this: In the early Methodist Church the Lay was the driving force in the church. The Itinerant Clergy provided spiritual leadership primarily in preaching the Gospel. The Local Clergy provided most of the pastoral functions. The administrative responsibility was with the Lay. We would be far better off if we went back to that type of system. A strong Lay Organization will yeild a strong Church.

Blessings,

Pastor Paris

-- Anonymous, December 19, 2001

Dear Pastor Paris, I have no problem with the Lay being more involved in the administrative peice of the local church as long as they are qualified to do so. In The First District where I serve I have been blessed to pastor in 3 Annual Conferences where the Lay were and are very active and present in the life of the local church and the conference as well. I also feel that we as pastors must encourage the Lay organizations in our churches to go to the next level in their mission. I prefer to lok at the Lay as not an organization but a MINISTRY.

-- Anonymous, December 19, 2001

Rev. Gregory, That seems to be a paternal approach that assumes the Lay to be something less than the clergy, perhaps children. In Texas, I suspect the Lay are better educated than the clergy and overall better qualified in the administrative aspects of the church. I know that the Lay is more amenable to change than the clergy. It is essential to our future as a denomination to make some serious changes to utilize the talents and gifts of the Lay. One definition of insanity is this: "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." For example: One would have to be insane to continue to plant peas while hoping to grow corn. The Bible says that you must plant the type of seeds you hope to harvest; Genesis "After its kind"; and again in Galatians: "You reap what you sow." This is not negative. It is a good system because we are able to control our harvest by our planting. Sometimes we appear to sow discord and try to reap peace. If you study our discipline and then take it as a whole, I detect a theme of "Protect the pastors from the Lay and the Bishops". These things ought not to be. We should be in ONE Spirit, Bishops, Pastors, and Lay; different offices but all equal in the sight of God and man. Am I off base here?

Blessings,

Pastor Paris

-- Anonymous, December 20, 2001

i agree with you Bill the Lay organization should be meeting more than once a month and should devote one meeting to training. In my church our lay president has no clue how the AME church is structure, he is sort of a figure head and there are certain members running the lay . The sad thing is some of them serve on the conference and episcopal level. The pastor has no clue of how to teach the members the importance of the Discipline. I am fasting and praying for God to move in a mighty way in my church. I know he will and I am waiting on him to do what he does best.

-- Anonymous, December 20, 2001

Bro. Dickens, Your comments on the uninformed, uneducated laity, especially in our part of the world (Florida), is so timely. All of our conferences need to be educated not only regarding our history but on the discipline, polity, duties of officers, auxiliaries, ministries, and the building up of God's people.

So many of our churches don't have "active" lay organizations. People show up to the meetings to represent their church, but they have no input basically because they haven't been taught exactly what the lay organization is all about. Two years ago, when the lay of this conference were electing their delegates to the General Conference, the then Bishop F. C. Cummings, threw out the report because it was tainted with innuendos. It was grievious then and funny now. The newly elected president was making motions, nobody other than his comrades were given access to the floor. Ahhhh! What a farce. So, I understand full well the sister who made the remark (in another thread) about the politicing in the church. That is a legitimate concern. When the head is sick, the body is sick.

My former pastor used to say, "we have an educated pew". For the pew to be educated, you need a body on the pew. And "what kind of education does the pew have"? Anything remotely resembling knowledge of God the Father, Christ our Redeemer, Man our Brother? the Holy Spirit? the 25 articles of religion? the doctrine and discipline and polity of the AME church? what we believe as AME's (the Apostles Creed)? Just exactly what is an educated pew?

I have to repeat "our people perish for a 'lack' of knowledge".

I agree that our laity needs to be taught and dispense with meeting to meet. One of the main reasons why I commend the work of Pastor Dwayne Gaddis, former pastor of Greater Mt. Carmel, Tampa, is because his focus was on teaching his congregation how to handle the spiritual and temporal business of the church.

My own church has no active lay organization. I must admit,they are highly educated (secular), but their knowledge of spiritual and AME matters is limited. That hurts my heart when you know that these folk have been the 'educated' pew for many, many years but are without any working knowledge of Christ or His church.

However, I'm happy to say that our new pastor is already in the process of making a difference in this area. Being a retired educator, he saw the need after the first day he was here and in two weeks folk know more today than they've known for all of their tenue on the pew.

I have hope that our people will grow in grace and in the knowledge of Jesus Christ.

The KING IS COMING! -- HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO THE NEW BORN KING!!!

-- Anonymous, December 21, 2001

For all of you who have "uneducated and undereducated Lay": Have you driven all the "educated" Lay out of the AME Church to other denominations with your attitudes? Are the "educated" Lay not joining to your church because of you and your attitudes? When you were a Lay person, were you "undereducated"; or were you born clergy? If I were a Lay person in one of your churches with that attitude, I'd be gone in a microsecond.

Again, you reap what you plant. If you have an ignorant Lay, you are planting Ignorant seeds.

Blessings,

Pastor Paris

-- Anonymous, December 21, 2001

Pastor Paris, I'm so glad you asked the question. No, the educated (secular) lay are still there because they want to know the truth about God, His Son, the Holy Spirit and the AME Church. They have friends in other churches and they knew that what was happening in those churches was not happening in theirs. For a long time, the church I refer to was the number one or two church on the district, it went down, came back to being the third church, went down again and is now trying to come back under a new pastor who sees that God's people have suffered from lack of knowledge. They did not leave their church, but they began visiting other churches and saw and heard things that was not happening at home.

Unfortunately, under the pastor who was there too many years preying on God's people, they were supressed and therefore regressed. Having transferred to the church I call the uneducated laity about a year ago, and finding God's people in disarray, my heart was saddened because this church, which I knew from a child, was in dire straights. They know that what happened, happened because of their failure to become enlightened and proactive regarding Christ and His church. In other words, they didn't stand up for Jesus - they fell for a man who led them down the road of ignorancy and they became in their own words "educated fools". Foolish for a man and his name wasn't Jesus.

Fortunately, when I became a member of the AME Church, I had a pastor who taught not only the Bible, but the doctrine and discipline of the AME Church. The lay organization was headed by a man who was full of the Holy Ghost and knowledge of the church. I'm proud to say, that as a lay person, I worked diligently with all facets of the church, from a School School teacher to Stewardess.

With our new pastor, prayer meeting and bible study has begun. Every meeting has on it's agenda some form of Biblical, mission oriented and/or lay teaching. It was a joy to sit in on the missionary meeting the other evening.

I'm so glad to know that you and others have taught your congregants well. Unfortunately, that has not been the primary concern in this conference. I pray to God that our people will get to the point of knowing what the church is to be - ABOUT OUR FATHER'S BUSINESS. For so many in this area, it's purpose is to have a program and raise the budget - that's the turn off. When we begin to "seek ye first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness, all other things will be added to us. We are not nieve enough not to know that it takes the budget to run our Church, but when that supercedes Jesus, we have a problem.

God bless you during this birthing season. My prayer is that Jesus will be born/reborn in all of us. Glory to the New born King.

-- Anonymous, December 21, 2001