I brought in some "Martha Stewart" eggs - you know the araucana eggs mixed with regular brown eggs and a white one to show the different beautiful colors.... Well, my boss announces to everyone that she wouldn't eat the eggs that I brought in because she can't verify how they were handled and would rather buy them from a store. I ignored her outburst of course because I am very polite. I was giggling hysterically inside thinking of the big chicken farms and what they feed them and how they are handled. Another co-worker went on about home milk and how she wouldn't drink it at all. She'd rather buy it from the store. I wonder if those folks knew how their meat was handled and fed would they eat it anymore? Folks here are horrified when I say I shoot or kill my animal (humanely) & butcher it myself. Ah, well, they'll starve during the revolution!! :)

-- Gailann Schrader (gtschrader@aol.com), December 14, 2001

Answers

Gailann, I know exactly what you mean--my daughter in law won't eat chicken at my house either! And, I've had egg customers whine that the yolks are so dark yello--must be something wrong with the eggs! Oh, well, can't convince everyone to eat healthily--more for the rest of us! Jan

-- Jan in CO (Janice12@aol.com), December 14, 2001.

That is so funny! I have 'converts' that wont eat anything but my eggs. I did have a co-worker that wouldn't eat anything I brought in for pot lucks because he was convinced it had been named and he'd heard stories about something it had done. I would often lable my food, after that: Chili con Bart, Bill the rabit stew, etc. I got sucha big kick out of the look on his face when he saw it. A grown man so completely horrified over meat - and he wasn't vegan.

-- Wendy A (phillips-anteswe@pendleton.usmc.mil), December 14, 2001.

Bill the rabbit stew is GREAT! Cracks me up!! We have a carry-in Taco Bar for Wednesday's Christmas luncheon (Nuthin' sez Christmas like Taycos, huh?!) and I was considering bringing Spicy Goat meat from a pet goat I had to put down. Could be festive...

-- Gailann Schrader (gtschrader@aol.com), December 14, 2001.

A friend of mine owns a dairy farm, and they sell raw milk. At a recent inspection, the inspector tested the raw milk and a gallon of milk from the local super duper food store. The store milk had more bacteria in it than the raw stuff from the farm!

-- Christina (introibo2000@yahoo.com), December 14, 2001.

I eagerly awaited my first araucana eggs, for the variety I would be able to pass along to customers. The first one took one look at the egg and said "What's wrong with THAT one?" I could not convince her the egg was fine, just like the others. I'm sure she took it home and threw it away! Somehow, the pristine "factory" that produces white eggs is less suspect.

-- melina b. (goatgalmjb1@hotmail.com), December 14, 2001.

I know what you mean...my sister from the "big city" brings her owned canned veggies when she visits me. She doesn't like to think that the fresh veggies from our garden have manure in the ground. Is this girl for real or what. ??? She's a great sister otherwise and I love her dearly but how sad that she just doesn't want to understand organic foods. As long as she doesn't have to deal with all the reality of eating meat etc.

-- Helena (windyacs@npacc.net), December 14, 2001.

Gailann, I think that every family and work associates have at least one person who thinks that anything "home grown" isn't as good as "store bought", if only they knew. hehehe

My SIL would not eat meat we raised and put up when we lived on the farm in NYS her reason was it didn't have the purple stamp from the government on it. I know what our animals were fed does she know what the store bought meat was fed. Think not, but then she brought her own towels and bottled water to take a bath in we had a well and surly the water must be contaminated.

What she doesn't know is on one of her visits we didn't have money to buy "store bought" meat so my husband took her for a ride to "show" her something while I got a ham in the oven before she could see that it wasn't from the store then when it was time to get it out and cut it up he took her to his workshop to "show" her something . Once the ham was cut up who could tell where it came from, wanna know what she said at dinner "this is about the best ham I've ever eaten". Just goes to show you it's all in their mind.

Sally

-- (mallardhen67@hotmail.com), December 14, 2001.

We raise all different breeds of chickens, therefore we have all different colored eggs. I sell them where I work and I have one customer that only wants white eggs because the brown & green ones taste "funny" to her. She didn't get the joke when I asked her if she was eating the shells. It takes all kinds!!

-- Charleen in WNY (harperhill@eznet.net), December 14, 2001.

Boy! People can be so bizarre! Funny thing is, where I live in the country nearly everyone has some kind of garden or livestock, and even they won't eat half of what they produce. One neighbor raises cattle for slaughter, but buys his meat at the local grocery store. Another has goats which average 24 to 30 kids each year, yet he has never even tasted goat's milk - thinks it would be "nasty"! Still anoyher raises chickens because he thinks they are so pretty, but allows the eggs to rot and buys only the white ones from the store.!!!

-- Deborah Stephenson (Wonkaandgypsy@hotmail.com), December 14, 2001.

I have had folks say they won't eat "those eggs" because they must have gone bad. We're talking Araucana (actually Americauna) green eggs here. Conversely, a neighbor gets eggs from us regularly, and the "green" eggs are usually mixed in. She had a visitor who had to get his camera and ask her to get a ham for the picture as well. Big "Green eggs and ham" fan! GL!

-- Brad (homefixer@SacoRiver.net), December 14, 2001.

"Bill the rabbit stew"! Sick, sick, sick! ;)

-- Shannon at Grateful Acres Animal Sanctuary (gratacres@aol.com), December 14, 2001.

My sister wouldnt eat the turkey for Thanksgiving because "it was walking around." When I asked her if she new what was fed to the store bought turkey she said it didnt matter as long as she never saw it alive. The funny thing is that my homeraised turkeys she never say alive to begin with becuase she is only at my home once a year!

-- tracy (murfette@stargate.net), December 14, 2001.

You know, we're all getting a good giggle over how clueless these people are, yet they are the reason that animal rights groups are able to prosper!

-- Gail (Quadrupets@aol.com), December 14, 2001.

I know what you mean. I have a veggie stand on the edge of my property near a busy road on the edge of town, and we occasionally sell my mom's brown and pink/green/blueish eggs there. Now, I'm a plain old white girl, and nearly none of the other plain folks will buy the eggs, but the hispanic's that buy my peppers and zuccini's can't wait to get the nice fresh brown eggs. I can't even give one away to the folks who look like me. LOL. I also have some very nice vietnamese (sp?) who buy duck eggs (my moms, my hens and duck weren't laying yet last summer) from me, because they like them better than any nasty old chicken egg. I guess those who were raised with fresh stuff understand and won't accept less.

:-)

-- Marty in KS (Mrs.Puck@Excite.com), December 14, 2001.

Now waaaaaait a minute. Gail, how is it that clueless city people help the animal rights people? As an animal rights person, I truly don't understand your comment. We AR folk simply want animals to be treated without cruelty, and unfortunately, commercial meat-making involves lots of cruelty and indifference. And while country people do kill animals for meat, they generally provide a much nicer life for the animal beforehand. So, if we can't get everyone to "go veggie!", we at least hope that the home-raised animals who are eaten by country people suffer less than those from the factory farms. So, anyway, how is it that city folks who prefer factory meat, milk, eggs, etc. are helping the animal rights people??

-- Shannon at Grateful Acres Animal Sanctuary (gratacres@aol.com), December 14, 2001.

My husband has a very sick side to him ,he always writes the animals name on the package. He thinks its so funny to be able to say "tonight its.... for dinner" Guess i'll never figure that out LOL

-- renee o'neill (oneillsr@home.com), December 14, 2001.

Shannon: There are Radical Muslims and moderate ones. The same, I believe, goes for Animal Rights Advocates. I have gathered that you are moderate, and I do like your sense of humor. I'm sure you, being a vegetarian (vegan?) could not even countenance this site if you were one of the radicals I think Gail may have been referring to. Have a great day. --Deb

-- Debbie in Mo (risingwind@socket.net), December 14, 2001.

Exactly, we think radicals. Most of us bird people trying to keep a breed going are encountering difficulties because "animal rights" people lobby to get shipping restricted. Not better, mind you, just more expensive. There have been numerous stories about people letting animals out of secure pens to be free...and they get killed. How this stops the big companies, I do not know, since they truck their poultry.

-- hopper (hopper@aol.com), December 14, 2001.

I have one customer who tried to sneak store bought eggs to her husband when she ran out of mine. He said, "These aren't Dee's eggs!" She can't fool him. Our school had a pancake breakfast and asked if I could donate some eggs. I was able to give them 20 dozen which they mixed with store bought so people wouldn't flip out over the orange color. Everyone said they were the best eggs they've had. I had to throw in a couple of little greens eggs too.

My sister-in-law refuses to eat my pork. She also never met the animal but refuses. I had to show her the package from the supermarket before she would eat it. She also won't let her son eat the venison we shiskababed. He loves it and looks for it every time he comes over and sneaks most of it for himself.

-- Dee (gdgtur@goes.com), December 14, 2001.

Shannon, since you seem to be a reasonable person, please help me understand something about the AR movement.

By way of putting out the flames before they start, I'm not trying to say that ALL Animal Rights people believe this or that,

We purchased a farm two years ago, my first. I like animals a lot. I'm a pretty soft-hearted guy, too, when it comes to them. I'm not much of a hunter, preferring to shoot animals with a camera rather than a gun.

So, right there, we probably have lots in common.

I will shoot an animal to provide for my family, though its too bad smoked venison doesn't grow on trees instead. I'll also quickly dispatch a fox that is stealing my chickens, and face other unfortunate realities of farm life. It kind of comes with the territory when you live in the country.

Perhaps what Gail is saying, (in context with this thread) is that city people (many of us once were..) tend to separate their perceptions (supermarkets are where food comes from) from OUR reality (animals and plants are where food comes from). Sure, city folk 'know' that, but in a detached sort of way. Farm life brings us face to face with the reality of where our sustenance comes from.

This brings about some humorous disparities in the way that we think...My sister is one of those, can't bring herself to eat anything that she has seen alive.

Now to my question. You say that AR folks just want to stop cruelty to animals. Then you mention that commercial meat-making involves lots of cruelty and indifference.

Okay, I can agree with that, for the most part, however, who sets the standards for what's 'cruel' or 'indifferent'? This is where this issue gets thorny in my head.

It seems to me that nature is pretty cruel and indifferent. Ever watch "wild kingdom" when you were a kid? Yikes! Gazelles getting torn limb from limb by a pack of cheetahs...

Some folks think that it's cruel for me to keep my chickens penned up. It's not 'natural'. However, foxes are pretty cruel to my chickens when I don't pen them up. The rest of nature seems pretty indifferent about it. I'm not going to be able to feed them, however, if they can't somehow pay their freight. When I hatch a brood of ducklings, about half of them will be male. Male ducks can't lay eggs, as you know, and It only takes 1 drake to keep four ducks satisfied...so 49 days after they are born, the surplus drakes get slaughtered. If I kept them all, I'd be broke in a hurry. I suppose I could turn them out into the wilderness, in which case they'd last about two days, if that. Is there anything wrong with my profiting from their short lives? Doesn't that at least give a little MEANING to their existence? Would it be less cruel if I killed them at birth, or if possible, before? (Duck egg abortions, there's another thread altogether!)

What I'm getting at is this: Death is part of life. So is suffering. Do you know ANYONE who has never suffered? Who says that animals, or people for that matter, deserve to live a long, painless life and die of natural causes? Do you say so?

Please don't think I'm saying that I believe suffering is good, or that animals deserve to suffer. The reality is, we live in an imperfect world. Death is part of life. Life is often brutal, painful, and rarely fair. That goes for people and animals.

People who live in the country seem to sometimes get a better handle on this fact, that's all. Anyone who's owned an animal for livelihood or sustenance would naturally have a real issue with somebody, (especially city folk) who said they were cruel or indifferent about their animals. You don't haul water in the winter to animals that you are indifferent about. You don't risk your savings on purchasing a rabbitry so that you can be cruel to the rabbits.

Just as farmers were the first environmentalists, Animal rights are nothing new to them either.

I really don't think that farmers and AR folks would be that far apart in opinion if they could agree on the definitions of the terms that they use.

There really was a question in there, I promise. :-)

Shannon, you make a good point that folks who buy food grown by commercial farms don't really help those who are against commercial farms. I hadn't thought of that before. I don't think that's what Gail meant to say. I think she meant that SOME city folks, because of their idea that food comes from a store, try to apply that perception in ways that can be humorous. And you have to admit, some of the stories on this thread ARE amusing!

Ok, I'm ready for the responses to this one!

-- chuck in md (woah@mission4me.com), December 14, 2001.

Oh chuck, I have just got to learn how to put the little pictures in...........LOL (trying to do it softly cause the hubby is sleeping)

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), December 14, 2001.

A wonderful woman who goes to my church does after-school care for my children. On Thursday I was going to be a little later than usual and this woman and my husband had a church meeting after dinner, so I made a crockpot dinner and she and her daughter ate with us. We had Irish stew made with some of this year's lamb. She and her daughter were quite impressed, saying how good it was. Then, after we'd eaten, I see the lights go on (so to speak) and she says, "Oh, did we just eat one of those cute little lambs from last summer?" I said, yes, and wasn't he delicious! She looked shocked for a moment, then she and her daughter both burst out laughing. I suspect that if I invite her for another lamb dinner, she won't turn me down! I snuck goat milk into once too, and she expected that to be awful and thought it was great. You see, they can be taught!

-- Sheryl in Me (radams@sacoriver.net), December 14, 2001.

My brother and his wife were here last week from California. My sister-in-law said she'd never put sugar in green beans but they were so good all the same. I thought, what the heck is she talking about. Finally we got things straightened out. She thought I'd opened a can of store bought green beans and added sugar as I heated them. When she found they were canned beans from my garden with absolutely no sugar added at any time she was floored. She'd never tasted such good greenbeans in her life.

-- Anna in Iowa (countryanna54@hotmail.com), December 14, 2001.

Good one Chuck! Speaking about feeding city people home grown goodies, one Easter I fed my company fried rabbit. The kids sure had odd looks on their faces! I don't think they were ever convinced it wasn't the Easter bunny!

-- cowgirlone (cowgirlone47@hotmail.com), December 15, 2001.

,,,, I thought "AR" meant Shannon was from Arkansas,,

-- stan (sopal@net-port.com), December 15, 2001.

Excellent post, Chuck. Take a bow!

Stacy in NY

-- Stacy (KincoraFarm@aol.com), December 15, 2001.

Haha Stan, nope, I'm in Michigan. And Chuck, I do love that picture! OK, I did have a little trouble discerning what the exact question was. But I think I get the gist of it. It all boils down to a person's view of where people and animals fit in the entire scheme of things. The majority of people today, (and for all of history, probably) see humans as being "superior" to any other life forms. Some people even say that this is made clear in the Bible. (Please, let's not go there, I can match you quote for quote. I'm just illustrating that many people believe in inherent human superiority because it's "in the scriptures"). Ok, so anyway, this human-superiority thing has gone unquestioned for eons. It basically means that since we are #1, anything we want or need, we get, regardless of the effect it creates on any other living things. Because, who's gonna stop us, right? Animal rights people don't buy this "inherent superiority" crap. The only reason people have deemed themselves 'King of All' is because we can. It's as simple as Might Makes Right. AR people are trying to change this view. Our goal is to have people consider that animals are NOT here merely to meet our needs. The value of an animal's life is NOT just in how it can benefit human beings. Animals have an inherent value, completely apart from human beings AT ALL. Ok, so where does meat-eating and hunting and all that figure in? Well, I think that AR people do wish that tomorrow, everyone would wake up and go vegetarian. But since that ain't happenin', we all have slightly differing views on what we would like instead. Speaking for myself, I wish that everyone who chooses to eat meat would take the responsibility of raising the animal and killing it. (Humanely, of course.) I think that eating meat from the grocery store is hypocritical. If an animal is going to be killed for your meal, let the blood be on your hands. Hunting falls in here somewhere. I personally DO understand why people hunt for meat. Now, people who hunt for FUN, or sport, or trophies, well, that kind of bloodlust is frightening and repulsive to me. I understand raising animals for food on the homestead. I don't do it, and I don't quite get how someone can kill & eat something they've had a relationship with, but aside from that, it's not that difficult to understand. And yes, Nature is merciless. I hate to think of animals starving, preying on one another, etc. but I respect that this is the way of all living things. Suffering is an unavoidable part of being alive. Contrary to the stereotype of animal rights people, we don't hold a Bambi-view of the world. We just wish and hope that people would be kind to animals whenever they can, to spare animals whatever suffering they can, and to lose the idea that humans are the end-all, be-all of life forms. Without going into a litany of why humans are bad, let me just say that we really have become a cancer on the planet, more-so than any other living creature. We foul our own nest and the nests of everything else, and are self-righteous about it. We really don't have much to be proud of, and would do well to lose some of this smugness and self- importance.

-- Shannon at Grateful Acres Animal Sanctuary (gratacres@aol.com), December 15, 2001.

The really sad part about it is-- not only do the adults not know how the animal is slaughtered and the meat is processed, they cannot identify fruits and vegetables unless they are on a refrigerated counter in the F&V section of the grocery store; children really think milk comes from plastic bottles and eggs from styrofoam cartons. Unless brought up on a farm or have farm relatives, the concept of finding and cleaning your food is incomprehensible. I learned late in life how to kill and clean a rabbit and how to kill and clean a chicken, and 3 - 4 different ways to fix cat tails, and how to identify other wild edibles. I sure do laugh at these survivor shows!! MissJudi

-- MissJudi (jselig@clemson.edu), December 15, 2001.

Most people have only a bare clue about how scary modren industrial agriculture and food processing is. Tell your friend that the FDA allows eggs to be sold as "fresh" for up to 365 days! Give her a copy of "Fast Food Nation" for Christmas, which was a bestseller. It is very readable, and very enlightening.

-- snoozy (bunny@northsound.net), December 15, 2001.

MissJudi-Are those cat tails meat or veggie??? :-} Bettie

-- Bettie Ferguson (jobett@dixie-net.com), December 15, 2001.

Years ago after I got out of the service,I took a job as a lab tech. at a creamery(milk prossesing plant)and learned first hand how bad factory farming can be.My uncle had also started a layer operation witch I visited. After having lived my earlier years on and around farms that had an old fashioned sense of responsability I was shocked to see what some farm operations had become.I feel that we all have a responsability to the care of our livestock, but still remain amussed at tha attatudes of some,not all, members of AR.

-- Tim Allen (www.goathillfarm50@aol.com), December 15, 2001.

hey there mr. chuck,

The differance for me as an AR-tree hugger person, between a pack of cheetahs tearing apart a live gazelle and 'processing' livestock comercially, is that we have the ability to provide decent food, shelter & a quick death to the livestock we have raised due to the opposable thumb & high brain to body ratio.

Whereas those cheetahs ,[ btw. it looks like we may be the last generation to see live cheetahs. :( ] are just using the tools available to them. Nature is red in tooth & claw after all.

That many slaughter houses are too big/shoddy? to manage for the animals' or OUR health is a shame.

-- bj pepper in C. MS. (pepper.pepper@excite.com), December 15, 2001.

chuck! and Shannon!--both great posts. Both informative and thought- provoking. Thank you for your calm and respectful approach to each other. Proves that the forum approach can be educational and fun if people just keep calm and reasonable. Thank you both.

-- Tomas (bakerzee@hotmail.com), December 15, 2001.

Now waaaaaait a minute. Gail, how is it that clueless city people help the animal rights people? As an animal rights person, I truly don't understand your comment. We AR folk simply want animals to be treated without cruelty, and unfortunately, commercial meat-making involves lots of cruelty and indifference. And while country people do kill animals for meat, they generally provide a much nicer life for the animal beforehand. So, if we can't get everyone to "go veggie!", we at least hope that the home-raised animals who are eaten by country people suffer less than those from the factory farms. So, anyway, how is it that city folks who prefer factory meat, milk, eggs, etc. are helping the animal rights people??

-- Shannon at Grateful Acres Animal Sanctuary (gratacres@aol.com), December 14, 2001.

Well, heck, what homesteader would *knowingly* be cruel to their animals? For that matter, what factory farm would? Being cruel to your animals is counterproductive which directly translates to being counterprofitable.

The problem is that we're all operating with different definitions of what is "cruel" and "inhumane." I have a co-worker who thinks I'm cruel to my dog because I'm not willing to spend the same money on medical care for her as I am for my daughter. From my point of view I think it's insane to spend many hundreds, possibly thousands of dollars on medical care for an animal that will never have sufficient economic value to justify such an expense. I won't even dignify the discussion by allowing an animal to be entered into an equation concerning how much medical care I think is sufficient for my children in relation to what I'll spend on my animals. I think it's a reasonable assumption to say that *most* homesteaders aren't in love with what we commonly refer to as "factory farming" and would like to see it change but the methods that many of the animal rights group choose to use put us right off. When the animal rights groups begin to turn their ire on even us homesteaders it gets our back up in a hurry and the battle is on!

Of course animal rights groups are no more homogenous across the board than we homesteaders are or even the factory farmers. Unfortunately it's the more extreme groups that catches the media eye and thus our attention and draws the hostile responses. Some of the AR groups are fairly moderate in their cause and I could support them in at least a few of their endeavors where the more extreme elements will get naught but the back of my hand.

As for how the "city folk" aid the cause of the more extreme AR groups it's fairly simple and can be summed up in one word - ignorance. I use the term "city folks" here though I've met plenty who consider themselves to be "country" who have never had food that didn't come from the store or was given to them by their neighbors who are nearly as bad. When you haven't a clue as to the reality of how that pork chop or steak got from a gleam in its papa's eye to your dinner plate you're far more likely to fall for some line of baloney that isn't the whole truth or any part of the truth at all and end up giving at least your tacit support to causes and organizations that are working against your own interests if you had known enough to even know what your interests are. This is hardly limited to animal rights but applies to any cause anywhere when you have large numbers of people who know nothing of what they are being asked to support, condemn, finance, vote for and so on and so on. Making a decision based on ignorance is just plain dumb and when you make decisions that way that other people have to live with it becomes either a tragedy or high farce and I'm not sure which is worse.

={(Oak)-

-- Live Oak (live-oak@atlantic.net), December 17, 2001.

Shannon; As a fellow Animal rights activist and vegetarian, I was all set to rush to your defense! Then I read your response - great job!

To all of you who have a hard time understanding "our side" of this issue, please reread CAREFULLY what Shannon had to say. We aren't trying to stop anyone from humanely keeping - or even eating - animals. (Although obviously we would prefer that people did not eat them!) The point is that as fellow creatures on this planet, they should be treated with respect, dignity and kindness. It is the QUALITY of the care during life, and the HUMANENESS of the death that are the chief concerns.

Like Shannon, I have no real quarrel with hunters who need to provide food for their families, but I very strenuously object to the idea that there is anything sporting about it - particularly when there is no extenuating circumstance like hunger to legitimize it. (Especially in the case of threatened and endangered species! But that is another story.)

We are animals as much as any other, and as such we have a need and responsibility to feed ourselves and our families. We have a very large garden. We raise chickens for eggs; goats for milk and manure. I do not really see the harm in this although I know that there are those who feel that no animal should be "kept". I love each and everyone of them. They have all the freedom that safety allows (My goats have large range areas, but are fenced to protect them from dogs and coyotes. The chickens go anywhere they want.)

From time to time, we have probblems with deer and rabbits in the garden; foxes, owls, and hawks make off with chickens. I just plant enough to allow for sharing the harvest, and enjoy the opportunity to watch the creatures who come to my garden. I would prefer the predators did not eat the chickens, but I try to be philosophical about it. When I look around and see how much of the planet we have claimed for our own at the expense of all the other animals who live here, I wonder that they don't do it more often - there is so little left in the natural world for them to eat.

You all have heard (possibly even said yourself) that animals like weasels like to "kill just to be killing" (said with disgust); or that only a [fill in blank with your personal favorite distasteful animal] would "foul it's own nest"... did you ever stop to think that those same epithets could be applied to us humans? Add that we "breed like rabbits" and you get a picture of a very selfish and nasty critter!

I guess what this comes down to is just doing what's right. Remember the Golden Rule, "Do unto others..."? We AR people just think it ought to apply to OTHER animals as well.

-- Deborah Stephenson (wonkaandgypsy@hotmail.com), December 17, 2001.

Deborah,

In the main I agree with your sentiments. I think most everyone here believes that animals should be treated humanely. The problem mostly seems to lie in that we don't all define "humanely" the same way. We all have assumptions of what constitutes humane treatment and when someone tries to redefine what it means there can be difficulties.

We aren't trying to stop anyone from humanely keeping - or even eating - animals. (Although obviously we would prefer that people did not eat them!)

Perhaps YOU aren't and perhaps SHANNON isn't but there are AR groups out there that want to do just this (the "meat is murder", "fur is murder" crowd) and they are the ones who are getting the media coverage. If you call yourself an animal rights activist then you'll likely get a reaction based on the groups who get the coverage.

Like Shannon, I have no real quarrel with hunters who need to provide food for their families, but I very strenuously object to the idea that there is anything sporting about it - particularly when there is no extenuating circumstance like hunger to legitimize it. (Especially in the case of threatened and endangered species! But that is another story.)

If a person is hunting because they seriously need the animal for food then it is not sport hunting (where the sporting part comes in) but survival or subsistence hunting. That kind of hunter can't afford to be sporting, he's hungry and needs to eat or feed his family and any means you can use to take the animal is legitimate. Fortunately, the vast majority of hunters in the present day U.S. are not in this category because they can simply buy their food, often far more cheaply than what it's costing them to go hunt it. For them hunting IS sport and as with any sport has certain accepted rules to make it a contest. It is the following of those rules that determine whether a hunt is or is not "sporting" not whether the person really needs the animal for food. If my child is hungry and hunting is my best chance of providing her with nourishing food then I'll shoot ducks on the water, jacklight deer and use any sort of trap that I can think up to take game to feed her with. None of which is considered "sporting" but all of which are very effective means of providing food.

Now when you involve rare or endangered species it's not a matter of whether their method of hunting is sporting or not but a matter of game management. Only a fool hunts a species to the point that it cannot continue to reproduce itself. Not that we don't have plenty of fools in this country.

={(Oak)-

-- Live Oak (live-oak@atlantic.net), December 17, 2001.

I have not eaten meat since January of last year....I am not radical and not an extremist.....and I AM a homesteader of long standing....

-- Suzy in Bama (slgt@yahoo.com), December 17, 2001.

Even tho the town we live near is small & there are farms all around, many of the town kids still think the best food comes from the store. The jr. high has apple & pear trees in the school yard. The kids use them for "ammo". A friend's son picked up a pear & ate it. The other kids were horrified, convinced that he would be poisoned because it wasn't a store pear!

-- Bonnie (stichart@plix.com), December 18, 2001.