Frankly, in the short period I have to exchange viewpoints with participants in this forum, I have found that discussion invariably break down into personal squabbles that are far from enlightening or edifying. Is there anyplace where I can go to engage in honest open discussion without falling from someone’s grace?

-- Anonymous, November 28, 2001

Answers

Heaven.

-- Anonymous, November 28, 2001

Duane

Loved It.

-- Anonymous, November 28, 2001

I have noticed ALOT of you lurkers coming out of the woodwork lately and saying hello. It is well known that most in most Forums that 95% percent or more of the readers actually post. It's good to hear from y'all now and then!

-- Anonymous, November 28, 2001

Can, rather will anyone answer Philip's question? I too would like to know of any other Christian Church sites. It would really be great if there was a Remnant site!

-- Anonymous, November 29, 2001

Lisa....who would be allowed on "the" Remnant site??

-- Anonymous, November 29, 2001

The remnant, of course.

-- Anonymous, November 29, 2001

Here is another Christian Church Forum

-- Anonymous, November 29, 2001

Danny,

You ask: “Lisa....who would be allowed on "the" Remnant site??”

I wonder why you ask? Does it even matter? I mean considering this site only allows folks with certain beliefs/background, what is your point?

The following is from the “New Rules for the Forum” thread started by you on July 22, 2001…

Dear Folks.....

Duane has given me the permission to be an Administrator/Editor of the Forum.

In other words....there is a new sheriff in town....and things are going to be different!!

For one....this will be a Restoration Movement Forum, limited in use to only those who are a part of the Restoration Movement, i.e., Christian Churches and Churches of Christ.

What that means is......if I can't tell from your posts that you are a member of a Christian Church/Church of Christ....I will delete your posts and or threads.

I have personally wearied of trying to convince people who have no intention of being convinced. If I do not know you....and I find your posts to be questionable....I will e-mail you and ask you what church you are a member of....and I will call that church, if necessary to validate.

The original intent of this forum was for people in the RM to discuss issues related to and of importance in our fellowship of churches. It was a place to discuss/debate ideas within our fellowship.

It was never intended as an evangelistic tool to convert the plethora of Calvinists out there.

Next....I will do my best to keep threads on the subject. For instance, if a discussion on computers turns into another diatribe on the elementary teachings of baptism.....I will start deleting unrelated posts.

Lastly, while some may view this editorial priviledge as harsh....I hope you can appreciate the attempt to get this forum back on track. There are a number of people on here whose views I respect and I would like to have a sounding board to go to when dealing with some of today's issues.

And.....I would like to do that without having individuals who do not have the RM's best at heart....interjecting devisive comments. The above changes will go into place immediately. I check in often.....and will delete as often as necessary.

I trust, however, it will not take long to get this place back into a more constructive tool.

-- Danny Gabbard, Sr. (PYBuck12pt@cs.com), July 22, 2001

You said: “There are a number of people on here whose views I respect and I would like to have a sounding board to go to when dealing with some of today's issues.”

“And.....I would like to do that without having individuals who do not have the RM's best at heart....interjecting devisive comments”

I for one don’t see much difference here. When we kick off people like Connie, Barry Hanson, etc. and not folks like Barry Davis who hold the same beliefs…what is the point anyway? Evidently the criteria for being able to post here is some sort of claim (ANY CLAIM) to the RM, even if your beliefs are faith only. And if that is the case why censor at all??

-- Anonymous, November 29, 2001

D. Lee,

Again you lie about me. I have never stated a "faith only" position on this board. Why do you feel justified in spreading lies about me? Are you a Christian?

-- Anonymous, November 29, 2001

Not for just doctrinal discussion but you can go to the Encouragement Forum for all sorts of positive messages.

-- Anonymous, November 30, 2001

D.Lee:

More co-moderators needed to help organize the topics in this Forum and keep things on track. Danny is now one of several. He came in with the intention to "clean up" and he has done a good job; but he has eased off somewhat from his original intentions, and I think that is a good thing. But your point at the beginning of your post is well taken.

-- Anonymous, November 30, 2001

Barry,

You do believe that Billy Graham is your Christian brother don't you?

As per the Billy Graham thread you are in agreement with him concerning his teachings which are "faith only".

Hey, I thought you believed it was wrong and unchristian to call someone a liar???

-- Anonymous, November 30, 2001

D. Lee,

Yes, Billy is my Christian brother and I praise God for his ministry! No, I don't agree with every position Billy takes. I simply stated that Billy preaches the Gospel.

-- Anonymous, November 30, 2001

Thank-you D.Lee, I could not have said it better myself! Why, instead of name calling and bickering, can't all of you just ignore those who aggravate you. (You know who they are). They obviously aren't going to go away. You certainly are not going to change their minds. I keep telling myself I should stay away from here because the anger that is always rearing it's ugly head here makes me sick!!! But I keep coming back, there is alot to learn here. It just would be much more so if it weren't for all the negativity.

D. Lee that was not directed toward you. I think you know that!

Now why don't all of you stick to the subject at hand or take your discussion about Billy Graham elsewhere. Isn't that how this is supposed to work? Take him to a Baptist site! That would be even better. :)

-- Anonymous, November 30, 2001

LOL :-)

That was pretty good Lisa, it got a laugh out of me anyway!

-- Anonymous, December 01, 2001

What these godly souls are actually looking for is a place where they never hear a discouraging word, where no one ever disagrees with their interpretation of the old myths, and those who don't buy the church dogma are booted off, or at least unwelcome, for they might challenge the supernatural beliefs of the faithful.

Isn't it amazing that Christians cannot tolerate discussions-- fragile, very fragile faith I'd say.

-- Anonymous, December 11, 2001

Gilda,

You have no idea of what you are talking about.

Have you even read any of the discussions in the archives??

-- Anonymous, December 11, 2001

Gilda is apparently an athiest who doesn't want to critically examine the claims of Christianity or the facts behind those claims, she just wants to propagate stereotypes and religious bigotry and stir up trouble. It's obvious she has never read any of this forum if she can ignorantly say that Christians cannot tolerate discussions. I see only one person being intolerant here, and it ain't us.

-- Anonymous, December 12, 2001

Kind of new to the interactive. It is a refreshing site. Hope to offer something to the group. Yes I'm a member of the Seguin c of C. We have, however, loosened up a little on more tradional items. But have moved more toward bringing people in and then as they mature a little, help them grow to a fuller understanding. So, I am very interested in being constructive in the R.M. The true battle is out there and not in house amongst basic christians. Amen? L. John

-- Anonymous, December 15, 2001

I must say, Mr. Saffold, for someone with no time to go into detail you sure have a lot to say. However, you are still quoteing a lot of scripture on your point and miss the others which talk about being accepted with out mentioning baptism. Remember when Peter spoke to the Cornelius and his family, they apparantly recieved the Holy Ghost and then Peter asked why they should not be baptised. Of course many other places that could be mentioned, if I had the time. But moreover, I would just remind you of the motto, "Where the bible speaks, we speak and where it is silent we are silent." It seems that where the bible does not say anything about instuments, and other subects, many are willing to judge the position of other saints all to willingly. Love in Christ, L. John

----------------- Up front you mentioned checking e-mail addresses. I tried to respond to a Mr. Saffold, at gdragon007@mindspring.com, however I recieved a mailer-daemon telling me it could not find a mindspring.com I hope you don't mind posting my answer. Hopefully he'll see it for what it's worth. Love , L. John

-- Anonymous, December 20, 2001

John Duncan,

You must have posted this in the wrong thread...E. Lee has not even posted here in this thread at all. The email address you used is an old one. His current one is: gdragon007@yahoo.com

-- Anonymous, December 20, 2001

Mr. Duncan:

You have said:

“I must say, Mr. Saffold, for someone with no time to go into detail you sure have a lot to say.”

And are we to assume that such is a problem for you? It makes good sense to anyone who has been reading my post in this forum for the past approximately two years. I do not know which post you are referring to in particular since I have not posted in this thread at all. But, when I say I do not have time to go into detail I mean exactly what I say. And if you will go to the archives and read some of my postings wherein I did go into detail and compare them with the one where I said I did not have time to do so. Then you will find that the one’s with the details say a LOT MORE that the one’s in which I do not have the time to get to the details. But in either case we do not know why you bring it up. Are you making some feeble attempt to criticize or are you just complaining that the length of our posts involve entirely too much work on your part to make them worthy of your attention? No matter, If you do not like our post then ignore them. If you want to answer them we recommend that you read them closely so as to avoid making a complete idiot out of yourself in your response. But we are not writing to please you and therefore do not take you into consideration when we write. So we do not care if our posts are long, short or in between. We do not care if they please or satisfy anyone. We care only that what is stated in them is the truth. If you can correct any of our errors in that regard it would be greatly appreciated. But do not imagine that we care anything of you opinion of our style of writing because the truth is that we simply do not.

Then you say:

{“However, you are still quoteing a lot of scripture on your point and miss the others which talk about being accepted with out mentioning baptism.”

I tell you what. If you will agree to quote the scriptures that prove the opposite of what is taught by the MANY scriptures that we have quoted teach then we would be happy to entertain just how they might be harmonized so as to prevent anyone from seeing that God has contradicted himself. For if the scriptures that we quoted actually teach the truth that we have been asserting then it is a fact that they cannot be contradicted by any other scriptures now can they? But, if they do not teach that which we have asserted that they teach. Then why have you not taken it upon yourself to show us just what they do in fact teach? Why have you deliberately ignored the passages that we have quoted and explained to us how they do not support our assertions? Are you incapable of doing such a thing?

Then you say:

“ Remember when Peter spoke to the Cornelius and his family, they apparently received the Holy Ghost and then Peter asked why they should not be baptized. Of course many other places that could be mentioned, if I had the time.”

You did not even mention this place. It is found in Acts 10:45-48 in case you ever want to read it again yourself. Peter did not “ask why they should not be baptized?” as you claim. Instead he said, “can any man forbid water that these should not be baptized as well as we”. Which would mean that they would have been baptized for the same purpose as the apostles, which was “for the remission of sins” (Mark 1:4;Acts 2:38). Now the reason that Cornelius household received the Holy Spirit before being baptized was to demonstrate to Peter who was Jewish that the Gospel was for all including the gentiles. Because with out his realizing this fact he may not have even offered salvation to them through the gospel and may have even refused to baptize them. And this explains why Peter said what he did. Read (Acts 11:15-18). Now only two occasions was anyone ever baptized in the Holy Spirit and it was the apostles on the day of Pentecost and the house of Cornelius. It never happened to anyone else unless it was the apostle Paul but we have no record of it. But every one else received the Holy Spirit through the lying on of the apostles hands (Acts 8:14-23; Acts 19:1-6).

Then you say:

“But moreover, I would just remind you of the motto, "Where the bible speaks, we speak and where it is silent we are silent."”

What makes you think that we have forgotten it? In fact, if this “motto” we not scriptural I would forget it. But it harmonizes with the teaching of God’s word (Rev. 22:19,20; 1 peter 4:11). So, we not only have not forgotten it we understand the scriptural reasons behind it and follow it consistently at all times.

Then you say:

“ It seems that where the bible does not say anything about instuments, and other subects, many are willing to judge the position of other saints all to willingly.”

Brother, there are many subjects whereof the bible does not speak but music in the worship is not one of them. The Word of God commands specifically vocal music in the worship of God in the church of Christ. (Eph. 5:19; Col. 3:16) and it is as silent as the tomb on the use of instrumental music in the worship. So, we preach that we should sing as God commanded and that instrumental music should be absent entirely because it is absent from God’s word. And those who argue to justify it are the one’s who are speaking where God has not spoken. When we teach that we are to sing we are teaching what God commanded. Now you tell me just how anyone could introduce instrumental music into the worship of God with out “speaking where the bible is silent”? And you assumption that we are “all too willing” to “judge” is just pure nonsense! You have judged that we are “all too willing to “judge” now haven’t you? So, how is it that you have some special authority to “judge” that we are “judgmental” while we have not the authority to “judge” between right and wrong and obeying God and not obeying him? That weak statement of yours was quite simply pathetic.

Then you say:

“Love in Christ, L. John”

Jesus said, "if ye love me keep my commandments". And do not think that any one is going to believe that you really love them if you do not judge when they are straying away from the truth and warn them to turn from their error. Now that is real love. Anything less than this are hypocrisy pure and simple. Those who turn a soul from error will “save a soul from death”. (James 5:19,20). Now that is love brother and one must make some righteous and just judgements in order to accomplish such a thing. And yes this we are indeed very willing to do and you should be as well. If you are not you should be ashamed of yourself.

Then you say: “----------------- Up front you mentioned checking e-mail addresses. I tried to respond to a Mr. Saffold, at gdragon007@mindspring.com, however I received a mailer-daemon telling me it could not find a mindspring.com I hope you don't mind posting my answer. Hopefully he'll see it for what it's worth. Love , L. John”

I have seen it Brother John and do not think that it was worth much. And D. Lee has already informed you of my correct email address. In fact, this email address has been with me for over a year now. You must have been responding to a very old post that I had written. But again I tell you that my email address is gdragon007@yahoo.com

For Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, December 25, 2001

Brother Duncan:

You have said:

“Kind of new to the interactive.”

You will learn quickly of that I am sure.

“It is a refreshing site.”

Remember that you said this when or if you begin to criticize those who speak the truth a little too harshly to suit your taste.

Then you say:

“Hope to offer something to the group.”

If you bring the truth from God’s word you will be “refreshing” as well. But if you bring nothing but your opinions and the doctrines and commandments of men you will assuredly be a disappointment as far as offering anything of value.

Then you say:

“Yes I'm a member of the Seguin c of C. We have, however, loosened up a little on more tradional items.”

Well, we hope that this statement has some good meaning. But we are not sure. For if you have been holding onto the “traditions and commandments of men” for any length of time you should have long since let go of them for they transgress the commandment of God. Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?” (Matt. 15:2,3) “And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.” (Mark 7:9). “Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.” (Mark 7:13). SO, if you have any traditions like these why have you only “loosened up a little more” on this foolish traditions of men? DO you lack the courage to LET GO OF THEM COMPETELY?

But, if you are talking about the traditions received from the Holy Spirit through the apostles of Christ then you had better tighten up your grip and find out why your are so foolish as to consider even for a moment loosening up on them at all. For the scripture says, “Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.” (2 Thess. 3:6). If you are losing your grip on these traditions you had better WAKE UP and take hold for you are turning away from the traditions of God. You should let go of the traditions of men since they act to make void the word of God but the traditions received from God through the apostles of Christ must never be let go, NEVER.

Then the scripture says, “Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.” (2 Thess. 2:15). Note the warning, “Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.” (Romans 16:17). Heed it. Then we are told, “Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith, which was once delivered unto the saints.” Contend for it and do not “loosen your grip upon this tradition” received of the Lord. And remember, “And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. Yet count [him] not as an enemy, but admonish [him] as a brother.” (2 Thess. 3:14,15).

Now we admonish you brother to be careful of the traditions upon which you are loosing your hold. If it is the traditions of mere men then we urge you to not only loosen your hold but that you immediately release them completely for they will cause you to transgress the commandment of God. But if you are referring to the traditions received from Christ our Lord through the Apostles then we admonish you to hold to them as if your life depends upon them for your soul most assuredly does! DO not even consider a relaxed grip on these things. Cling to them brother CLING TO THEM!

Then you say:

“But have moved more toward bringing people in and then as they mature a little, help them grow to a fuller understanding.”

You cannot bring them into Christ without leading them to obey the gospel of Christ (2 Thess. 1:8,9) since Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all them that obey him (Heb. 5:8,9). And you cannot “sneak up on people in this way. They are either converted to Christ in the beginning or they are not. And once they are converted to Christ they will yield to anything that he says so that you do not have to wait for them to be more “mature” before you teach them the truth on any matter. Now they may need to mature before they will be able to consistently follow what is right but they do not need much maturity to be taught that which is true from God’s word on any matter.

Then you say:

“So, I am very interested in being constructive in the R.M. The true battle is out there and not in house amongst basic Christians. Amen? L. John “

Only those ignorant of the facts as they are among us today could say amen to that statement. There are those who have “crept in unawares” who have perverted even the very gospel of Christ. And if you think that we can work in harmony with those within who walk disorderly and not according to the traditions received from the apostles you are woefully mistaken. (2 Thess. 2:15). So, there are enemies of Christ both in and out of the Kingdom of God and we must stand for the truth against them all.

Peter warns us in these words:

“For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?” (1 Peter 4:17,18).

So, all is not so well even inside the “house of God” which is the “church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth”. (2 Tim. 3:15). And this is because there are some who are adding new traditions of men and “loosening their grip upon the traditions of God. There are false teachers our there and the “devil as a roaring lion walketh about seeking whom he may devour”. We are to “prove all things and hold fast to that which is good”. SO, do not expect anyone at all knowledgeable in the word of God and the facts among us to agree that there are no battles being fought or yet to be fought “in house” as you say. For the time is coming when Judgement will begin “in house” and the “righteous will scarcely be saved”. Think about it brother. There is a battle going on in house and you had best follow Christ so that you do not end up on the wrong side and lose when the judgement begins at the house of God.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, December 25, 2001