It’s not just Promise Keepers anymore, folks, it’s also WOMEN OF FAITH. Get a load of their history as they have stated it themselves:

The History of Women of Faith After devoting nearly two decades to assisting individuals grow spiritually, mentally, and physically, Stephen Arterburn, Chairman and Founder of New Life Clinics, the world’s largest provider of Christian mental health care, felt compelled to focus his attention on the specific needs of women. It became his goal to develop a program designed to meet the spiritual need of women in America. He desired to create an event that would be unique and inspirational, helping women celebrate life through God’s love and grace. The result of Mr. Arterburn’s vision was Women of Faith and the “Joyful Journey” conference series. These weekend events for women became a reality on January 1, 1996. The Women of Faith conferences were held, and sold out, in seven U.S. cities during 1996, with a total attendance of 30,000 women. Due to the overwhelming response to the conference, thousands of women had to be turned away during this initial season. As a result, the 1997 tour was expanded to encompass fifteen U.S. cities. Attendance at the conferences also required moving the events from church facilities in 1996, to civic arenas and coliseums in 1997. The total attendance for the 1997 season exceeded 159,000 women. With a cry from women across the country to continue, Women of Faith’s “Bring Back the Joy ‘98” conference toured 28 cities, with 320,000 women in attendance. The 1999 Women of Faith’s “Outrageous Joy” conference toured twenty-five cities, and continues to provide women with messages of abiding hope, perfect peace, outrageous joy, uncompromising grace, revolutionary freedom and unconditional love. What started as a simple idea, has since evolved into one of the most significant and powerful women’s movements of this decade. It’s a movement that is spiritual, emotional, and relational.

-- Anonymous, November 27, 2001

Answers

Response to WOMEN OF FAITH CONFERENCE

AND THERE IS MORE:

Women of Faith: "Outrageous" or Joy?

By Debbie Dewart, MA

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All over the country, women are emerging en masse to attend the "Outrageous Joy" conferences sponsored by Women of Faith. Nearly twenty thousand turned out for the September 1999 event at the Anaheim Pond, with another fifteen hundred viewing videos in overflow rooms at local churches. The names sound inviting and innocuous. After all, as believers we have real reason to rejoice over our promised heavenly inheritance, even when devastating trials tear through our lives (1 Peter 1:6-7). Christian women are indeed "woman of faith," faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

But titles can be deceiving. Lurking behind the scenes is a big, powerful industry that wreaks havoc in today’s church: "Christian" psychotherapy. Steve Arterburn, founder of New Life Clinics, is the mastermind behind these round-the-country events. The psychological undercurrent is hardly hidden, as both New Life Clinics and Remuda Ranch have displays and representatives advertising their allegedly "biblical" programs of psychotherapy, in-patient and out- patient. New Life Clinics are scattered all over the United States, claiming to offer therapy that is biblically grounded. Remuda Ranch, located near Phoenix, Arizona, offers intensive psychological treatment programs for women suffering from bulimia and anorexia.

"Anorexic Christianity." Perhaps it is modern Christianity that suffers from "anorexia." The writer to the Hebrew compares God’s Word to physical nourishment, admonishing his readers that by now they should be ready for the "solid food" of that Word, moving on from the "milk" of baby Christians (Hebrews 5:13-14). Paul wrote to Timothy that he had been "nourished" in the words of faith and sound doctrine (1 Timothy 4:6). Today’s church, sadly, is malnourished, starving for that sound doctrine. Speakers at "Outrageous Joy" briefly noted a verse here and there, but the presentation was primarily entertainment directed toward the senses. There was no intellectual stimulation, no intensive teaching from any text of Scripture, and no mention of sin, repentance, or man’s depravity as presented in the Bible. It seems that the real "anorexia" is the appalling lack of biblical nourishment in today’s church. Instead of sound doctrine, believers are fed the "junk food" of contemporary psychotherapy, couched in Christian terminology that deceives the unwary.

Where in the world is the church? It is hard not to ask WHY so many thousands of woman are compelled to battle crowds and traffic in search of "outrageous joy," competing for autographs and time with a few select "celebrity" Christian women. Where are the women of the church? Whatever happened to the book of Titus, where Paul instructs the older women to teach the younger women to follow God’s Word? I couldn’t help but think of my dear friend Beverly, my "big sister," diagnosed four years ago with colon cancer. I’ll never forget the day I stopped by to give her my love just prior to her first surgery. She was on the phone, cheerfully telling a friend that "God will use this for good." Then she was making a list of people she could pray for during her recovery, and she wanted to know, "What can I put down for you?" [Who, me? You’re having cancer surgery and you want to pray for me?!]

Four years and three surgeries later, this dear lady has two tumors in her lung and is on her fourth round of chemotherapy. But her "outrageous joy," in a truly biblical sense (James 1:2-4), never ceases to amaze those who love her. Beverly has never seen a psychotherapist in her life, but she has immersed herself in God’s Word. Her "outer man" may be decaying, but her "inner man" is being renewed day by day, so that she never loses heart (2 Corinthians 4:16). There’s something about actually watching a godly woman walk through a trial, week after week, year after year, that can’t be captured in a thirty-minute speech on stage by a person you don’t know and may never see again. Where are the women of the church? Why are so many women, thousands of them, rushing to a conference to seek what they ought to be finding in their local churches?

"Unconditional love" versus condemnation. The underlying conference theme is God’s "unconditional love." The general presupposition is that most of us feel unworthy of that love. God’s love, of course, is a key truth that runs throughout Scripture. But to understand and appreciate that amazing love, we must first be confronted with the reality and horror of sin. When the prophet Isaiah realized that he was in the presence of a holy, righteous God (Isaiah 6), he was terrified. In fact, he literally stated that he was "damned." God restored the man and sent him out on a prophetic mission, but not once did He tell the prophet that he was "worthy." God has provided atonement for our sin, satisfying divine justice. The gravity of man’s sin and depravity is precisely what makes God’s love so awesome. When modern speakers shrink back from the mention of sin, exalting God’s love while neglecting His holiness, they actually diminish the intensity of divine love. If we were truly "worthy" of God’s love, it would hardly be worth all the fuss. It is the fact that we are unworthy, that Christ died for us while we were yet sinners (Romans 5:8), that makes God’s love so incredible.

One of the speakers (Barbara Johnson) talked about her discovery (in 1975) that her 20-year-old son was a homosexual. After she had condemned him, he disappeared from his family for about eleven years before a reunion occurred. The speaker said nothing about homosexuality being a sin and nothing as to whether her son continues to practice this sin. She now maintains a ministry to parents of homosexual children (Spatula), but she picks and chooses the verses of Scripture that are acceptable for that ministry. Texts describing homosexuality as an "abomination" are quietly discarded, while Scriptures that talk about God’s love are the ones she presents. But people need the whole counsel of God. It is wonderfully true that there is now "no condemnation" to those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1). Nevertheless, homosexuality is a sin, an abomination in the eyes of God. We are to respond to homosexuals as we would to any other sinners, with love, gentleness, and humility. We are called to restore those entangled in any sin, whether it be homosexuality or something else (Galatians 6:1). Compassionate ministry doesn’t mean that we overlook or redefine sin, but rather that we act with humility in view of the fact that we are all sinners, equal at the foot of the cross (Romans 3:23).

Casting out the moneychangers? When Jesus found merchants buying and selling in God’s holy temple, He immediately cast them out. Today’s current buzzword phrase seems to be: "What would Jesus do?" I can’t help but wonder, indeed, what He would do at the "Outrageous Joy" conference. Twenty thousand women paid approximately $50 each to attend, and there were fifteen hundred in overflow areas paying $25 each. Do the math; it adds up to well over a million dollars! Every speaker had a table selling books and/or tapes. Women of Faith sold t- shirts and other conference souvenirs. New Life Clinics and Remuda Ranch offered high-priced "professional counseling" to replace the free Word of God (Isaiah 55:1-2). What would Jesus do? Would He cast out these moneychangers?

This conference was surely something of a mixture. The psychological undercurrent was sometimes unmistakable, as when Sheila Walsh described her journey to the psychiatric hospital to be treated for "clinical" depression. It seems, for her, that life began after psychotherapy even though she trusted the Lord as a young child. Speaker/comedienne Chondra Pierce never mentioned psychotherapy, but offered an encouraging testimony about how her mother praised and trusted God despite the death of two daughters and desertion by her husband. On the whole, the presentation was one designed to appeal to the senses, with little biblical depth and a not-so-subtle enticement to seek answers in psychotherapy.

(PAL V7N6)

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PsychoHeresy Awareness Ministries, 4137 Primavera Road, Santa Barbara, CA 93110 www.psychoheresy-aware.org

-- Anonymous, November 27, 2001

Response to WOMEN OF FAITH CONFERENCE

Arterburn Sues Minirth

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Steve Arterburn filed suit against Frank Minirth in the Superior Court of the State of California in Orange County. The case is listed as follows: 95 CV 00330, Stephen Arterburn v. Frank B. Minirth. In his action against Minirth, Arterburn was seeking damages in excess of $550,000. The file on the case indicates that Arterburn’s complaint was for defamation, "slander per se," and that "a jury trial [is] demanded."

Arterburn alleged that Minirth said the following words to at least Dr. Paul D. Meier and Nancy R. Brown (Meier’s sister): "He [Arterburn] is a murderer and adulterer." It is stated in Arterburn’s complaint that Minirth’s statements exposed Arterburn to "hatred, contempt, ridicule, and obloquy" and impugned Arterburn’s integrity both personally and professionally. Arterburn contended that Minirth’s statements were slanderous and jeopardized Arterburn’s financial livelihood, which included book revenues and speaking engagements. Arterburn reported that he had received during the prior year $500,000 in book revenues and over $50,000 for speaking engagements. Thus, Arterburn was seeking over $550,000 in damages.

The following quotations are from Minirth’s response to Arterburn in the case file:

[Minirth] admits that he had a private conversation between himself and another business associate, Dr. Paul D. Meier, wherein Dr. Meier questioned the propriety of [Minirth’s] decision to terminate the contract between New Life Treatment Centers, Inc. and New Life National Corporation on the one hand, and Minirth-Meier Clinic, P.A., Dr. Minirth, and Dr. Meier on the other hand. [Minirth] responded to the effect that [Arterburn’s] judgment and actions were being affected by his previous actions (by his own admission in nationwide print) in getting a woman pregnant out of wedlock and then being responsible for her having an abortion. [Minirth] admits that his statement was true and was based upon and was a reference to [Arterburn’s] own admissions to nationwide audiences that he had committed adultery (sexual relations outside marriage) and had been responsible for an abortion, which in his own words and in the Christian community is the killing (murder) of an unborn child. [Arterburn] told a nationwide audience in January 1994:

[. . .] "When I was in college . . . it was a sexual relationship and we produced a child and we made a decision out of feelings completely out of feelings to have an abortion and I lived with that for I guess two years until I finally was able to accept that God had truly forgiven me." (Emphasis added).

[Arterburn] called such action (abortion) the killing of a child (murder) in his co-authored book to a nationwide readership:

Induced abortion is a procedure performed on a pregnant woman that causes the fetus (unborn child) to be killed so that the pregnancy is ended. . . . We firmly believe that abortion for the purpose of birth control cannot be justified from a Christian point of view because abortion kills a human being. ... Moreover, from a scientific point of view, we know that an unborn fetus is not just an "unviable tissue mass," nor is the unborn fetus part of the woman’s body. It is enclosed in the woman’s body, but it is a fully distinct human being.

Minirth, F., Meier, P., and Arterburn, S., The Complete Life Encyclopedia A Minirth-Meier New Life Family Resource, p. 8-9 (1995). (Emphasis added). In his own book, [Arterburn] called such an action the destruction of a child (murder):

"You see, I had paid to have another woman abort a baby I was responsible for. . . . I felt I had destroyed a child."

S. Arterburn, Hand-Me-Down Genes and Second-Hand Emotions, p. 8 (1992). (Emphasis added). In the same book, [Arterburn] told a nationwide readership that his actions (committing adultery while in college) were "sexual promiscuity," which is synonymous with adultery. S. Arterburn, Hand-Me-Down Genes and Second-Hand Emotions, p. 12 (1992). (Emphasis added).

Minirth contended that his own statement was "qualifiedly privileged" because Minirth made the statement to one or two of his business associates (Dr. Paul Meier and possibly Meier’s sister, Nancy Brown). Minirth said, "Dr. Meier understood the statement was not intended to mean that [Arterburn] currently or recently engaged in adultery or murder/abortion and it was merely repetition of what [Arterburn] had already told a nationwide radio audience" (pp. 7,8).

While this suit was dismissed, we do not know if a settlement was made prior to dismissal. This lawsuit raised questions in our minds about whether or not Matthew 18 was implemented. We wrote to both Arterburn and Minirth asking this question. Arterburn replied that "The principles of Matthew 18 were carried out by me and my co- workers in an effort to help Frank see he had made a mistake and needed to repent." Arterburn indicated that Minirth was unwilling to respond to himself and other Christians, thus causing him to engage in the lawsuit. Arterburn also indicated that he never intended to get money from the suit or to drag Minirth into court. Thus far Minirth has not responded. If he does, we will publish his response in a future newsletter.

(From V4N6)

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PsychoHeresy Awareness Ministries, 4137 Primavera Road, Santa Barbara, CA 93110 www.psychoheresy-aware.org

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-- Anonymous, November 27, 2001

Response to WOMEN OF FAITH CONFERENCE

Psychoheresy Abounding

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How much of the church is involved in psychoheresy and how might you detect the shift from Christ-centered faith to a quest for a psychologically satisfied self? Are you hearing more sermons on how to feel better about yourself than about the holiness of God? Are you hearing about the importance of "being" over "doing"? Are you encouraged to get in touch with your feelings? Are you learning new techniques to deal with stress? Are you hearing about how to improve your self-image, raise your self-esteem, and forgive yourself? Are codependency groups and other twelve-step programs being offered in your church?

Sometimes the language of psychotherapy is barely detected because we live in a psychological society, heavily influenced by the counseling industry. Moreover, the language of therapy is broadcast daily over "Christian radio" throughout America.

Gustav Niebuhr, in his article "Evangelical Christians see value of psychology," calls it a "cultural shift" and gives his "visit to a Christian bookstore" as one example:

In the section devoted to the "Christian life," once the province of books on prayer and devotions, you can now find guides on how to stop worrying, overcome codependency, manage stress and live free of guilt (Santa Barbara NewsPress, February 15, 1997, p. D2).

Niebuhr points out that evangelical Christians, who previously "viewed psychotherapy as hostile to religious belief, have largely put aside their suspicions of the profession" (p. D2). In other words most evangelical Christians do, indeed, embrace psychotherapy and its underlying psychologies.

We have witnessed this shift over the past 30 years, and it happened in spite of the research revealing the inefficacy of psychotherapy. Niebuhr quotes Steve Arterburn of New Life Clinics (previously Minirth-Meier New Life) as saying that Christians have accepted the "Christian counseling" form of psychotherapy "because people see the results" (p. D2). But, that can only be by individual testimony and by hype advertising, because the research on efficacy does not support the idea that treatment from psychotherapy is superior to other activities in which a person may participate (see Bobgan, PsychoHeresy, pp. 182 ff.). But research does reveal negative results from psychotherapy. It has been demonstrated that psychotherapy can harm.

Prior to the advent of psychoheresy in the church, preachers taught people about the powerful, sufficient grace of God during times of trial and affliction. But, now many seem to assume that people are "hurting" and thus needing some kind of psychological wisdom and help. Rather than preaching the power of the Gospel both to save and to sanctify, they offer an insipid solution to the latest trend of psychological ills that surely must be debilitating the flock.

Through the years we have encouraged believers to minister God’s grace to one another, both because the Bible calls us to do so and because research demonstrates that, on the average, nonprofessionals do as well as or better than highly trained, experienced professional counselors (PsychoHeresy, pp. 179 ff.). Now others are echoing the call, with words such as these: "A New Testament approach to ministry demands that we [pastors] allow trained church members to assist in counseling." (Ministries Today, September/October, 1996, p. 61). The author of the article declares, "I teach a 32-week, Scripture-heavy course designed to disciple team members in a Spirit-led, prayer- centered, biblical approach to ‘one anothering.’" That sounds great, but later in the article he reveals his confidence in psychological counseling and its underlying psychologies. He advises pastors "to have a trained, professional Christian counselor available as a consultant to you and your team of counselors" (p. 62).

We commend those who desire to help and encourage believers to minister to one another, but here again trust is placed in psychology for difficult cases. It is as if to say that Christians can help one another with little problems, but they cannot help with the big ones. We continually find that, underneath all the external verbiage, most professing Christians maintain a dual trust. They rely on the psychological theories and therapies of unregenerate men and they also rely on the Word of God and the work of the Holy Spirit. Their allegiance is divided, and their leaning towards one or the other will depend on the severity of a problem.

This attitude is repeated from church to church, so much so that people write to us and ask, "Are there any churches that are free of psychoheresy?" We generally answer that there are very few. We recommend that people look for a church where at least the senior pastor carefully preaches the Word, trusts in the sufficiency of the Savior for living the Christian life, and warns people about the dangers of following the wisdom of the world.

Another publication read by pastors is Your Church, in which a clinical therapist encourages pastors to protect themselves from people in their congregation. Why? Because he says, "Today’s church member springs from a therapeutic culture" (November/December 1996, p. 44). Here is some of the advice given:

Use a professional therapist as a consultant if you have a counseling program in your church. Lay counselors should be under the supervision of a qualified counselor. . . . Make a referral to a qualified therapist when dealing with long term counseling. Personality types that run the greatest legal risk often require long- term counseling (p. 47).

The expression "qualified counselor" refers to a psychologically trained and licensed counselor.

Some pastors become so impressed with secular psychological theories and therapies that they leave the pastorate, go back to school, and become psychological therapists themselves. One such former pastor declares:

I really believe the counselor serves a priestly role. . . . I think (spirituality and counseling) go together. Truth is truth. There are just different languages for it ("Ministering to the Mind," The Bakersfield Californian, January 25, 1997, p. A14).

We wonder about which truth this pastor-turned-psychological-priest might be referring, since there are now around 500 different and often conflicting theoretical systems of psychological counseling. Such an idea of truth is like the New Age definition of truth being "whatever is truth to you"—completely subjective with no standard. Psychological counseling and its underlying psychologies are not based on the one secure foundation of truth, the Holy Bible. Instead, psychological counseling is based on systems of human opinion.

Christians do recognize certain shortcomings to psychology and thus attempt to add a spiritual dimension, but when they do so they are still compromising their trust in God and His Word and placing their confidence in the psychological wisdom of man, human effort, and professional intervention.

Yes, psychoheresy is abounding. In one form or another, it is more prevalent in the pulpit and the pew than ever before. Many have already placed their trust in the false gospel of psychoheresy. Yet, we know there are others who would listen and respond to warnings about psychoheresy if the information were made available to them.

(PAL V5N3 * May-Jun '97)

For a book revealing the failings of psychotherapy, see PsychoHeresy on the Study Materials page. For a book uplifting the biblical approach to ministering to life’s problems, see Competent to Minister. Both books can be obtained through this ministry.

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PsychoHeresy Awareness Ministries 4137 Primavera Road Santa Barbara, CA 93110 www.psychoheresy-aware.org

-- Anonymous, November 27, 2001

Response to WOMEN OF FAITH CONFERENCE

Debate?

by Martin Bobgan

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Recently I was asked if I would be willing to debate the psychology issue with someone on the other side. My position would be anti- psychology, meaning anti-psychotherapy and its underlying psychologies. The other side would of course be pro-psychology. The title of the debate was to be "Can You Trust Psychology?" which is the title of a book by Dr. Gary Collins, president of the American Association of Christian Counselors (AACC). I accepted the invitation.

I suggested that he ask Collins if he would debate me. Or, if he would not, to select one of several people listed on the AACC stationary. I named several from their alphabetical list, beginning with Steve Arterburn and ending with H. Norman Wright. The person setting up the debate inquired. Collins’ response was negative.

The person setting up the debate then asked me who else I could suggest. I named Hank Hanegraaff, who heads Christian Research Institute, or Bob and Gretchen Passantino, who were the subjects of our book CRI Guilty of Psychoheresy? The person called Hanegraaff’s office requesting his participation in a debate and was referred to the Passantinos. He then contacted the Passantinos and their response was negative. However, the Passantinos suggested Dr. William Backus. This person called Backus’s office and left a message. Backus called back and declined.

We have made efforts over the years to engage in public dialog over this important issue with those whom we critique. Thus far the results have been negative. Others such as Dave Hunt have also tried with the same negative responses. At one time John Ankerberg actually set up a debate with three psychologists on the pro side and three of us on the anti side. At the last minute the three psychologists backed out. Maybe someone could explain why this is so.

(From PAL V6N5)

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PsychoHeresy Awareness Ministries, 4137 Primavera Road, Santa Barbara, CA 93110 www.psychoheresy-aware.org

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-- Anonymous, November 27, 2001

Brother Watkinson:

I just want to say AMEN and AMEN to your following words:

“"Anorexic Christianity." Perhaps it is modern Christianity that suffers from "anorexia." The writer to the Hebrew compares God’s Word to physical nourishment, admonishing his readers that by now they should be ready for the "solid food" of that Word, moving on from the "milk" of baby Christians (Hebrews 5:13-14). Paul wrote to Timothy that he had been "nourished" in the words of faith and sound doctrine (1 Timothy 4:6). Today’s church, sadly, is malnourished, starving for that sound doctrine. Speakers at "Outrageous Joy" briefly noted a verse here and there, but the presentation was primarily entertainment directed toward the senses. There was no intellectual stimulation, no intensive teaching from any text of Scripture, and no mention of sin, repentance, or man’s depravity as presented in the Bible. It seems that the real "anorexia" is the appalling lack of biblical nourishment in today’s church. Instead of sound doctrine, believers are fed the "junk food" of contemporary psychotherapy, couched in Christian terminology that deceives the unwary.””

Indeed you have hit this nail squarely on the head and driven it with one masterful stroke into the very heart of the problem! If we are to remedy this pathetic and sad condition we will have to do as we are commanded. WE must teach the word of God. And in many places we must teach these again what is the “first principles of the oracles of God”. For indeed on can see in too many places men who at a time when they “ought to be teachers” have need that someone teach them again about the first principles of the oracles of God”.

If you will read our thread entitled “Christian Expositions of the word of God”. If you will notice our proposal to have such expositions in this forum, our willingness to do such, and our request to have others to join with us in this activity you will see much of the reason that this condition exist. We have already begun writing expositions of the word of God and will soon begin to post them in this forum. But we wanted to thank you for those words which you have stated and state our agreement with them.

For many have actually made it appear that Christianity is only for those who are too emotional, and psychologically weak and unstable to face the realities of life. And nothing could be further from the truth. Christianity is for all men, weak or strong, for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23).

I would like to say more but I have not enough time at the moment. But I thank you very much for your excellent and clear observation of what is the cause of this pathetic “anemia” which is apparent in all too many places among the saints. It is indeed caused by a severe malnutrition. And the poor nourishment is the result of a distorted diet of the doctrines and commandments of men mixed with the fluff of emotionalism and the craving for self-pleasure in the form of entertainment. Without which even the “standing in the very presence of God” would bore this wretched camp of spiritual refugees pouring into the PK conventions groveling at the feet of false teachers, deliberate deceivers, psychoanalyst, a plethora of untalented writers seeking to sell their useless wares! It is a shameful place for a Christian to be found unless the Christian is vigorously opposing what he sees there!

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, December 01, 2001

another big Amen here.....

ENOUGH of the 'sheep' with wolves breath being allowed into the fold...

-- Anonymous, December 03, 2001

Here's the problem with "Anorexic Christians" - they make God Bolemic:

Rev. 3:15-16, "I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I would that you were cold or hot. So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will SPEW you out of My mouth."

Sounds pretty definite to me!

-- Anonymous, December 03, 2001

This is a quote, I just can't remember who said it, but I believe it. "Much of what passes for the Judeo-Christian religion is either psychological distortion or full-blown pathology."

All major wars are fought over this wonderful atrocity called religion and women seem to be a tad bit more suceptible to the craziness than men.

Someone once prayed, "Jesus plese protect me from your followers."

-- Anonymous, December 11, 2001

Gilda,

You are obviously a half-baked pseudo-intellectual, struggling to defend your version of "faith" in whatever it is you have faith in.

To play your game, a Princeton University Nobel Prize winning chemist once said "I can't go to church without bumping into someone from the physics department".

A famous mathematical physicist once said "If you want an atheist, go look in the philosophy department. You won't find them here in the physics department".

Where I serve God, there are no fewer than about 3 dozen PhDs, and most are among the most dedicated members we have. Including myself (Mathematics, University of Virginia, 1993).

So stop embarrassing yourself. If you want really want to discuss the evidence objectively, write me. My e-mail address is legit.

-- Anonymous, December 12, 2001

Opps, now this is the legit one. Sorry, slip of the fingers

-- Anonymous, December 12, 2001

Mark, I don't care to discuss anything with a person who begins his first paragraph with, "You are obviously a half-baked, pseudo intellectual, struggling to defend your version of "faith" in whatever it is that you have faith in."

OK, I'll play that way, for you are obviously a half-baked, pedantic intellectual, bragging about your credentials in an effort to convince everyone, including yourself, how brilliant you are and how many holier-than-thou PhDs serve your "Lord."

First, I don't flaunt my credentials, and I've had mine much longer than you. And I don't feel the need to trot out friends and associates with PhDs to shore up my non-belief in your God.

Religion is nothing more than supernaturalism. It comes from pagan- human, myths that generates models of cultural cohesion. There are thousands of religions and thousands of gods all forumlated or constructed of supernatural beings with supernatural powers. Or as Carl Sagan so aptly said, they provide a "God of the Gaps," for things that cannot be explained. Science is not supernaturalism. Yet religion never misses an opportunity to discredit science or else to make a dubious merger between science and religion.

And as far as discussing anything objectively with you--don't make me laugh. Your whole attitude is condescending and arrogant, which is typical of so many Christians.

"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers useful." Seneca

-- Anonymous, December 12, 2001

... and then God Himself entered human history ...

-- Anonymous, December 12, 2001

Gilda wrote: ... I don't feel the need to trot out friends and associates with PhDs to shore up my non-belief in your God.

No, then why are you doing pretty much the same thing: you just have to quote like crazy others and justify yourself with the opinions of the intellectual class. Me thinks you are mad that others can use the same weapons as you.

Darwin himself said that if there was no explanation of the human eye forth coming, then his theories would be bunk. Microbiologist and one time evolution theorist Michael Behe studied something much simplier, single cell organisms. He extrapoliated back from modern single cell organisms what the possiblilities for the first living, reproducing single cell organism looked like. The possibilities were still so complex that the odds that random chance could assemble base proteins into such a cell were longer than the odds that a tornado could whip through a junk yard and assemble a fully functional Boeing 747 (Behe's own analogy, described in Behe's book "Darwin's Black Box"). Based on his own research, Behe concluded that there had to be an intelligent designer of the universe.

I can cite a lot more cases than this. Even dedicated evolution theorists admit that for every hole they fill in evolution theory, 10 more open up. The scientific evidence behind an intelligent design is building to quite a case, while the scientific evidence behind random emergence has a pretty facade, but the structure is crumbling. Would you care to discuss that, Gilda?

-- Anonymous, December 13, 2001

"Man/Woman of a few words Award"

-- Anonymous, December 14, 2001

What sorry, pitiful jerks you are. I posted a real answer, was cut off and told to type in that swil of Woman/Man award. I guess it might make your little bootlicking Christian hearts flutter too hard to read a real answer. Adios you kindly Christians. NOT!

-- Anonymous, December 14, 2001

Gilda,

Maybe it has something to do with your fake address. listbot shut down months ago, a victim of the economy.

-- Anonymous, December 15, 2001