To One and All,

Do you foresee another big split in the RM between "conservatives" and "progressives" in the near future? What will be the proverbial straw that will break the camel's back (no pun intended). What will be the central issues?

-- Anonymous, November 25, 2001

Answers

Mark....good to hear from ya!!! You obviously have been lurking!!

Anyway...you are right in your assessment of the "non" churches.

A freind of mine in Orlando...who is currently out of the ministry....attends a "non" church....which features of all things.....a Praise Band for the youth.

When he went to the church, which I believe is a rather large one....he asked for a meeting with the elders for the purpose of knowing if he could place his membership with that congregation since he was from an instrumental church.

They quickly held out the right hand of fellowship to him and were quick to point out...that their reason for being "non" had nothing to do with Scripture. They simply felt there was a need/place for that style of worship.

He and his family were very satisfied there the last I heard.

-- Anonymous, December 11, 2001

Philip,

If we are not a denomination, how can we split? Of course, we are a denomination, so I guess it is possible, in the sense that their was a split with the Disciples and the "Anti" sect. I would probably be considered in the progressive camp, which I believe is actually more conservative than the "conservative" camp. While they claim to be conservative, they are actually adherents to the unwritten Campbellian creed. The progressives are truly restorationists, willing to go where the Bible takes them, even when it breaks with sacred tradition.

-- Anonymous, November 25, 2001

You don't have to be a denomination to split. A family can split, a team can split, a church can split, and a movement can split.

-- Anonymous, November 25, 2001

Duane,

First, we would have to identify who is a part of this movement? So, who is and who is not a part of this movement? What criteria would you use to make that determination? Would it be the name of the churches involved? Their history? Their belief system? What are the determining criteria that would make up this movement? I think once you come up with the criteria you would find the Christian Church/Church of Christ denomination.

-- Anonymous, November 25, 2001

I was just pointing out a minor fallacy in your first sentence, not disagreeing or agreeing about the tendency of congregations to act like a denomination...

You said: "If we are not a denomination, how can we split?" and so I merely pointed out that your question assumes that the definition of denomination includes the ability to split or not to split.

-- Anonymous, November 25, 2001

Duane,

Do you view us as a denomination? If not, what are we? We're certainly more than a loosely knit fellowship. Wouldn't you agree?

-- Anonymous, November 26, 2001

I cannot speak for a denomination, I am not a part of one. To an extent, Barry, I would agree that there are some who have set out to create and C/C CoC denom, and I'm sure in their mind they are succeeding. But there is a solid brotherhood of Churches that will have nothing to do with anything denominational.

There are 3 faithful Churches here in Seattle that I know of, but many more that carry the name Christian Church or Church of Christ. They wear the name but have abandoned the faith. They are not a part of my brotherhood and I and this congregation do not have fellowship with with them.

Just because there is a particular name on the sign does not place a congregation in a denomination.

My daughter is in the Air force and is having a terrible time finding a faithful Church where she is stationed. She has been to several that had the name, but none so far, have had the faith.

Philip, to answer your question, I believe a split has already occurred, but since we are not a denom, to Barry's chagrin, there is no way of making it official. The central issue is what it has always been: The plan of salvation.

You know, in the last generation, what you call "progressives" were called "modernists." From them we have the Disciples movement. Now Barry, there's a denom for ya!

-- Anonymous, November 26, 2001

Barry,

If by “us” you mean the Church of God. Then no “we” are not a denomination.

We are called, we are to be separate, we are sanctified, and of course we are more than a loosely knit fellowship. We are sanctified by the TRUTH which is what separates us from others.

But your concepts of “denomination” and “sanctification” seem to be a bit mixed up.

For a biblical view of sanctification see the following:

2 Cor 6:14-18 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will dwell in them and walk among them. I will be their God, and they shall be My people." Therefore "Come out from among them and be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, and I will receive you." "I will be a Father to you, and you shall be My sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty."

John 17:18-21 "As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. "And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth. "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; "that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.

1 Cor 1:2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

Heb 2:11-12 For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, saying: "I will declare Your name to My brethren; in the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You."

Heb 10:12-14 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

Jude 1:1 Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:

Now after having read that I hope that you will still not persist in calling the Church of God a denomination as you seem so insistent upon doing

-- Anonymous, November 26, 2001

D. Lee,

Know, I don't mean the "Church of God" mentioned in the NT. I'm talking about the modern (in terms of church history) churches of the Restoration Movement. That is the denomination of which I speak.

-- Anonymous, November 26, 2001

In order to split there needs ot be a demarcation line that's easy to measure. A "shibboleth" for easy labeling.. With the instrumental/acappella split it was easy. Walk into the chuch and scan for pianos. When a group of churches decided to create a fromal denomination (Disciples)it was easy again. Is the church listed/not listed in the Disciples directory. In the christian church now, I don't see a split coming. There is no easy demarcation line.

Personally, my background includes some time in acappela circles, conservative instrumental circles, and some of the more "progressive circles" (if that's the term you want to use). Other than a few people whose theology owes more to the pharisees than Jesus (always sitting around trying to figure out who in and who is out according to their interpretation of scripture rather than accepting that only God is holy and the rest of us depend on grace...) most people could overlook the interpretive differences and love God together.

About ten years ago the Oregon Christian Convention managed to get the restoration movement to come together for a change. The four days of the convention had one subgroup provide the program. One day the accpella Church of Christ, one day the instrumental Church of Christ, one day the independent Christian Church, one day the Christian Church, Disciples of Christ. I'm sure that there were many people who didn't come becuase THEY were there. They being a different group depending on who We was. But many people came and celebrated a movement that was intended to break down devisions between Christians.

-- Anonymous, December 10, 2001

Dear Richard,

With all do respect, brother, I beg to differ with your assessment of this here situation. THERE IS A CLEAR LINE OF DEMARCATION and it is called BAPTISM. In other words, those who will continue to hold to the historical view of the RM (immersion is for the forgiveness of sins) and those who want to party it up with mainline Neo- Evangelicalism. That is as clear a line of demarcation as you will ever find if you ask me.

True, it is unlikely that the sign in the front will undergo any changes, but neither did the sign of the anti-instrument Churches of Christ. Not at least in the earlier phase of the separation. What will happen is that we will continue to ware the same names of Christian Church and Church of Christ (after all, why mess with the legalities?), but certain churches will be known for their stand on Christian baptism and others will probably merge in to mainline bliss.

I wouldn't be surprised if hundreds of Christian Churches and Churches of Christ would eventually drop the name in favor of some generic name like "Grace Community" or "Church on the Way". That is the fad among some of our people even as I speak. I'm no prophet but I have learned to observe a little. As long as we are on the subject of names, may I suggest one for apostate brethren?

"Welcome to the Willow-creek Wanabee Church Over The Hill"

Ouch!

-- Anonymous, December 11, 2001

To the orignal question:

IMO, there is already an ongoing big split already underway among acapella churches of Christ. It's admittedly hard to see and the line hard to define -- it's not like a denomination where there is a national or global organization to split up. It's hard to see because of the independence of each congregation.

I don't know if I would label it as being between "conservatives" and "progressives", however. I would say the real division is among those who adhere to Restoration doctrines and traditions (as they have emerged in the acapella churches) v. those who adhere to Restoration principles. Interestingly, a number of the latter have introduced occasional use of instruments into the worship, either a guitar or up to three piece band on some songs or every other week or so. Some have even introduced music ministers, quite a step for an acapella background.

-- Anonymous, December 11, 2001

Thank you Philip!! I coudn't agree with you more!! Except for the part of renaming:-)

Our local congregation now calls itself Christ's Mission Church. Some of our supporters at the time checked to see (and rightly so) if our doctrine had changed. It did not.

-- Anonymous, December 11, 2001

Philip -- at one time we were thinking of naming a new congregation here "The Church in Indiana" (Indiana, Pennsylvania). Thought that was about as biblical as it could get, i.e. the Church at Corinth, the Church in Sardis, etc.

-- Anonymous, December 11, 2001

Hey Danny,

Really just lurking for the past few days, about the time I had to start bringing my lunches to work rather than go out and at about the same time, a hit a lull in planning our church's men's retreat (I'm chairing).

If I ever get my act together, I'll be starting what I hope will be (easily tranferable) correspondence courses soon and then I'll probably disappear from site again. Through a bit of "luck" or precisely God's good blessings, I got laid off from my last job and in a few days ended up in a job that gets me 4 weeks + of vacation and "personal days" per year -- great opportunity to take compressed courses or whatever they call those.

-- Anonymous, December 12, 2001

Philip,

Thanks for your above post. You hit the nail on the head. Yes baptism is the line of demarcation. The split has been ongoing for 2 decades+ and shows no signs of going away. Even on this forum, notice how some try to amputate baptism from the Gospel message. And for what? Only to be able to hang with the Willow-Creek gang.

Several years ago I heard a well-known preacher from KY speak at Lake Aurora (FL). He said that baptism was "our doctrine" and that we had no right to impose "our doctrine" upon other Christians that didnt hold to "our doctrine." He said that we are saved by Jesus and not doctrine. The only thing that amazed me more than the audacity of his statement was the fact that so many people were in agreement.

-- Anonymous, December 12, 2001

BTW, Roger Chambers wrote an article you may want to read concerning this. You can read it here: http://www.cccflorida.org/Asimov.htm

-- Anonymous, December 12, 2001

Scott,

I take those folks have not looked up the word doctrine the Bible?!!

-- Anonymous, December 12, 2001

Mark, is that a real email address? It bounced back.

-- Anonymous, December 13, 2001

Duane,

Sorry, I entered it wrong once, and forgot to expire the cookie when I corrected it.

My sincere apologies.

-- Anonymous, December 13, 2001