"Mega-churches" dropping AME from the title

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I am sure this topic was covered in another discussion, and if so, please direct me there. But I noticed in the December, 2001 issue of Ebony magazine that Great Allen AME Church, Jamaica Estates, NY (Rev. Dr. Floyd Flake, pastor) is called "Greater Allen Cathedral of New York". The beginning of the article states that Rev. Flake has been pastor of the Greater Allen [AME] Cathedral (notice that "AME" is in brackets). This is becoming a new phenomenon, not with just megachurches. There are a few churches in Chicago that are calling themselves "centers", and are dropping AME from the title, or are saying in small print and brackets (an AME church). Does it really matter if AME is included in the title or is this the new millenium order of the day?

-- Anonymous, November 24, 2001

Answers

It matters if you want your church to grow. For too long, we have put the emphasis on denomination instead of Christ and Ministry. All major denominations are learning from the exodus of members to Bible Churches and non-denominational ministries.

Blessings, Pastor Paris

-- Anonymous, November 24, 2001

Pastor Paris could you explain a little more about what you mean, when you "say it matters if we want our church to grow" My church is in a state that is 98 percent white. And our church is growing because it has the hand of God on it and we are proud to be an African Methodist Church. One of the things that attract people to our church is the A.M.E mission statement. Our church is multi-racial and multi- generational and one of the things that makes our church unique is the name recognition. For people who have moved here from other cities, know the work of the A.M.E church and know they will be welcomed. I have been in other denominations and I can't think of another denomination that is as Christ centered as ours. The Call to Worship is powerful, the Apostle's Creed is liberating. We are proud to be the only A.M.E church is town of 100 churches. It will be interesting to hear your response and other responses on the importance of a denominational name. I for one hope we keep A.M.E in our church names.

-- Anonymous, November 24, 2001
Some, not all, of our churches spend more time praising our leaders than they do praising God. Some, not all, of our churches spend more time raising money than they do tithing. some, not all, of our churches have lost their first love, Christ Jesus. Due to declining memberships, some of our pastors must resort to every scheme imaginable just to "raise" the budget. In many ways churches are much like people. When young and full of the Holy Spirit and zeal they grow very rapidly just as our babies grow so fast you can see changes from day to day. Likewise, old churches tend to lean on traditions, and refuse, sometimes deliberately not to grow (I might lose my position, etc.) It does not have to be that way. We can look at our Lord's messages to the seven churches, find our church there and then apply the Jesus solution. God Bless you in your efforts. God is in you raising up an example for the remainder of the AME Church. You mention that your church is multi-racial; that is the kind of church God wants us to be. My family would be happy in a church such as yours.

Blessings, Pastor Paris

-- Anonymous, November 24, 2001

This is not just an AME happening. Many denominational churches are dropping the denominational name, or putting the name or initials in parenthesis. Sometimes it's so small on the sign you can hardly see it. Other times they'll use a denominational seal or logo.

By doing so they accomplish several goals. The first is they attract those who prefer a non-denominational environment, or at least one where denominational affiliation is soft pedaled. Surveys show that many younger generation Americans, beginning with baby boomers, have little or no denominational loyalty. They are interested in finding out where God is moving, regardless of denomination. Some, rightly or wrongly, may actually see denominational affiliation as a hinderance to the Spirit's move. Minimizing affiliation tells this group that this church is less tied to the rule book. "Give us a try."

Also, this group is less interested in tradition than their parents. Denominational labels indicate some type of tradition.

Finally, after seeing established churches get stale, become involved in scandal, or engage in splits, many Christians would like to start on a blank slate with God. They want to remove dogma from their lives, and the first thing they'd like to get rid of is a book of doctrine. They want to examine their beliefs all over again, and some believe this is most easily done in a non-denominational setting.

At the same time those who are interested in denominations can still seek out these churches rather easily. While the unitiated may not know what the logo or initials stand for, those who are looking for that type church will. A chuch will also have itself grouped in the phone book with other churches of its denomination, even with the denominational name removed. So it's a good way to split the difference. If you want a denomination, you can find it at this church. At the same time it's a way to minimize the denomination to those who are turned off by them.

-- Anonymous, November 24, 2001

This is such a good discussion, for after I posted, I just got a call from a new member who is white and she said she felt uncomfortable with the word "African" in our name. For she felt it was not inclusive. It was a wonderful discussion for she asked if I would remove African Methodist Episcopal from our church name, since we are in Montana. I said NO!!!!!! I shared with her God was very intentional about planting A.M.E churches in Montana. God has a plan for this state and it includes the A.M.E church. One of the things I told her is that Christianity is not about being comfortable, it is about looking at sin head on and asking God to heal it. I was able to listen to her talk about her own racism. And I was able to allow the Holy Spirit to work on us both. Montana is a state that ranks no. 2 for white supremacist activity in the country. Montana is a state that Neo-nazis in Germany say they would like to imigrate. Montana is a state that God has planted 3 A.M.E churches. I might add my member called me back after talking to a trustee, who told her he liked the name of the denomination for all life began on the continent of Africa. Our church is the only integrated church in my town. I do believe it is even more important than ever for the banner of the African Methodist Episcopal church to be held high. I believe very, very strongly that our doctrine and social witness should be shared. Oh, by the way that member I told you about has volunteered to be the President of our Women's Missionary Society. She was moved when I told her our denomination is studying about Vietnam. They will know us by our name!!

-- Anonymous, November 24, 2001
Sagemont Baptist Church (Houston, TX), dropped Baptist from its name. Founded 35 years ago, it now has 14,000 members (plus).

I think the "classic" definition of Megachurch (2000 members attending per sunday) may be outmoded. Many of the new megachurches, including our own Allen Cathedral and Ebenezer, Ft. Washington, have membership rolls in the five figures. Perhaps 10,000 should be the new bar.

-- Anonymous, November 25, 2001

The Games People Play.

Imagine a church, which bears he name ALLEN not BODLY and PROUDLY proclaiming to be an African Methodist Episcopal Church. Imagine again the claim to salvation being even remotely implied to be based on numbers, names, or even the appeal thereof.

Imagine a church not headed by a bishop being called a cathedral. While it is true that Bishop Ming was elected from Allen, his official headquarters is in Philadelphia--not even at Mother Bethel.

None of our churches accurately fit the description of home of the Bishop or seat of a diocese, even if the Bishop is officially a member of its congregation, and therefore they are not truly cathedral churches. This is like the often miss used, "Reverend Doctor".

Imagine Jesus returning and not finding "ANY FAITH IN THE EARTH", only hype and pompous arrogance. Praise be to God for his people wherever they may be of any size and church affiliation. For He has promised to be ONE in their midst.

Perhaps we ought to revisit and rethink the statement, "For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear".

A careful study of the time-tested Doctrines and Disciplines of all major denominations will prove them to be SOUND and securely based on the word of God. So what does it mean when these are rejected by some of us in order that we may become like the proverbial JONES?

While I have no intention of condemning or attacking anyone for what they believe, It still gives me great cause for imagination and in my imagination, I WONDER?

-- Anonymous, November 25, 2001

Praise the Lord for the freedom to choose and the freedom to disagree. Time will tell if the denomination is important. Sister Rogers, I respect your judgement and agree that God is using you. However, I disagree with the idea that He wants you to champion the AME and become a defender of our denomination. For example, in my study of Jerimiah, it seems the prophet disagreed with God when God revealed that His people would be taken captive. He did get out of God's way and accept his will. Likewise, I believe the AME Church is being taken captive because as a denomination, we have lost our first love, Christ Jesus. You see the church as Jesus saw it was not to fight racism but to preach Christ.

Blessings,

Pastor Paris

-- Anonymous, November 25, 2001

One of the biggest steps I took forward with God in the last few years was to become involved in a city-wide prayer group. Together with other Christians with a heart for revival we pray with a city and regional focus. Out of this God has taught me that it's not a denominational thing, but a Kingdom thing. God isn't interested in building a denomination so much as His Kingdom, region by region.

In the first century there was no question which denomination one came from, though the beginnings were seen ("I am of Paul, Peter," etc.) All believers belonged to one worldwide church, and the only question was, where do you live? What little patch of the earth has God made it your responsibility to evangelize? Ephesus? Corinth? Jerusalem? Since the book of Acts is our model, anytime I see a step towards restoring that environment I cheer. Bring on the tongues, the miracles, the mass conversions, and please refer to me as simply a follower of Christ.

The second part of this lesson came when I saw my pastor ask other pastors of our denomination to get involved. No interest. Their focus is working within the structure of their denomination. Each little group, operating independently, building their own little empire. Very little interest in building the Kingdom with churches outside our denomination. As a result my pastor says he feels more kindred to the pastors in the city-wide group than those in his own denomination. I feel about the same.

Don't get me wrong. Denominations are useful for sharing strength within their group. They can combine resources to build colleges and send missionaries more easily than non-denominational entities. They provide a system of accountability for ministers (though that can be abused). They also let people know (to a degree) what they can expect when they walk in to one of their churches.

Unfortunately they are also prone to a rather narrow vision that ignores the other brigades in God's great army. That's why the older I get, the more I want to label myself as simply "Christian".

-- Anonymous, November 25, 2001

Rev. Paris it is a joy and pleasure to champion the A.M.E church. For God has called me to this denomination. It is odd that you would say it is not my place to fight racism. Our denomination was born from the acts of racism. Racism is evil! And as Christians we are called to stand up to evil with Christ as our protector. I love my state and this is where God placed me. I have been here almost ten years and there are others like myself who have answered God's call to stand firm so he can work through us. One thing I have never done is to be silent in the face of injustice. I am not a new pastor, just new to the A.M.E denomination. I am 49 and every ministry I have been involved has included social justice. For that is what Christ calls us to do. No one can understand another's call and I do not ask that of you. But rest assured that the work God is doing in Montana will effect others in this country. The largest White Supremacist group in the U.S is in Missoula, Montana. It is headed by Matt Hale of the World Church of the Creator. He has his own hate TV show. And it is this group that killed 4 people in the chicago area two years ago. I love the A.M.E denomination and I have seen lives dramtically changed because we are here. To go to a food bank and talk to poor people about God and to tell them they are welcomed in our church. Is the work of the Holy Spirit. To see them show up and feel accepted, is power of Jesus Christ. We all have our personal experiences with God, mine is different than yours perhaps but I know what God has planned for town using this church will be amazing. To God be the glory! And to God I will always turn. I told my Bishop recently that I want to be "in the one million club" for I want to spend the rest of my life winning one million souls for Christ! I know this is off topic, but I felt it important to share. As for me I am A.M.E and I will remain A.M.E for this is what God has told me to do. It is not my will but his.

-- Anonymous, November 25, 2001
I was a little bit hesitant about raising this issue! But, I am glad I did. God's blessings to all of you and your honest responses!

-- Anonymous, November 26, 2001
What a wonderful discussion. To a degree, I have to agree with Pastor Paris, we've put a lot of emphasis on the denomination and not enough on the mission of the church, which has its substance from Luke 4:18.

Because the church is to be inclusive, it is important that the local church make itself known as a member of the Body of Christ, while not compromising it's heritage. Our emphasis should be on what we believe as AME's (All Scripture and the Apostle's Creed) not on the denomination's hierachy, etc.

In response to Brother Matthews, the doctrine and discipline of the AME Church seems to be doing okay on paper, but it gets tough when you try to get the spirit of the law off the pages and into practice. Unfortunately, pastors and lay persons get into conflicts over the interpretation of the law. Do we use the Methodist polity for interpretation and clarity?

So, where in the discipline does it allow an AME church to change it's name? If the church is connectional, does the local church have to submit a name change to the trustee board from local church, district, conference, up the hierarchy? Just how does that work? Just another hmmmmm?

-- Anonymous, November 26, 2001

Rev. Wiggs,

I have known a few churches that easily changed their names on the vote and recommendation of the membership. One in my conference recently did so because they moved away from a locality reflected in the original name. However my question here pertains to the inappropriate use of the term "cathedral" which literally means a church which is the home of the bishop and the official seat of the diocese. None of our churches qualify to fit that description.

Cathedral churches are not based on size or location of the congregation. As an educator, it gives me great concern when folk-- who ought to know better--loosely employ inappropriate terms such as "Cathedral" or "Reverend Doctor", among many others I could list. It also gives me concern that the name ALLEN is not proudly proclaimed to be A.M.E.

Finally, I will restate that the Doctrines and Disciplines of all major denominations represent sound (Bible based) doctrine even though some folk fail to allow this doctrine to work and would rather keep up with the Jones than to seek God's will wherever He allows them to be.

-- Anonymous, November 26, 2001

Dear Sister Jackson This is a most noble question and worthy debate. I am in complete agreement with Brother Robert Matthew on the playful use of words like Cathedral. I also agree with Pastor Paris when he correctly states we have (in some areas) lost our first love which is Christ Jesus. What concerns me more is the unnecessary profiling of Churches in magazines. Christianity is the"in thing" today. It is the social and political place to be seen. But without the conversion power of God it has little substance. We have lost sight of the call of the Church when we become to caught up in names and advertising.

May God Bless You All This is a great discussion

-- Anonymous, November 26, 2001

Brother Matthews, I do understand your frustration with the use of words that are inappropriate. Is that called a "misnomer"? I may have one that will hurt your heart as it did mine. The word "chancellor" is the name of one of the choirs in an AME Church in my fair city. Please forgive them!

Let's remember that when the head hurts, the body hurts and that our job is to "fast and pray" for the opening of blinded eyes and deaf ears.

No doubt other churches will change their name but, the question is; what is the basic premise of the church? The church's mission, vision, and goal should be explicit.

-- Anonymous, November 26, 2001

The name change comments toggled my memory so let me share this with you all. A Baptist Church that if affiliated with the Southern Baptis Convention solved this problem by planting and triming their shurbbery so that the SBC could not be seen unless you went right up to the sign and movved the bush. It just appeared that one limb had grown mor than the others. (Smiles)

Pastor Paris

-- Anonymous, November 26, 2001

I am truly blessed that so many thinking persons of faith have taken the time to address such an important topic as this. As an African- American preacher and former pastor in the African Methodist Episcopal Church I wanted share a few thoughts. 1. I believe it is important that we know what we call ourselves. The AFRICAN METHODIST EPISCOPAL CHURCH has a rich history and legacy that I need not go into. Other denominations are sure of their theological and philosophical faith traditions. Our history and tradition is rooted in the very fabric of what it means to manifest in-spite of faith. Tradition gives us identity, integrity and authenticity. That being said, we should not be held captive to tradition. God is doing a new thing in Churches that are free enough in spirit to trust in the Lord. 2. On Church growth; the 'megachurhces' of today became that way because they were structured on a small interconnected cell system that provided intimate fellowship and accountability to its members. This is at heart, the basis of the class leader system. Non Denominational churhces with neo-pentecostal flavor are a revival of the Azuza explosion that came out of the Methodist tradition!! In a market culture, where large church member numbers are hungrily sought after, it is important to remember that quality of relationships demonstrating the love-ethic of Jesus the Christ is the paramount paradigm thinking Christians of faith and good will should display. We need to remember not only who we are but, Whose we are. Growth comes from integrity, inspiration, and celebration. Not, gimmicks and tricks to get numbers without love and faith in action.

-- Anonymous, November 26, 2001
From what Rev Alexander says, and I agree with him, the churches that are growing (recasting the discussion from mega-churches to growing churches) have taken the fundamental doctrines of the AME church, relabeled, repackaged and marketed them to a hungry world. That's all that any of us AMEs ought to want. If we allow tradition to blind us we are destined to go the way of the Pharisees and Sadducees that Jesus had so many problems with. All of the gospels teach the evils of tradition for tradition's sake. Somebody needs to tell the story of the woman and the Christmas ham.

Blessings

Pastor Paris

-- Anonymous, November 27, 2001

Rev. Paris,

I've never heard the story of the woman and the Christmas ham. Why don't you tell it? :)

Great discussion, by the way. I'm tending to agree with Rev. Paris. Miracles never cease! :)

Peace and blessings!

-- Anonymous, November 27, 2001

The Christmas Ham

A family was gathering for their annual Christmas celebration. As dinner was being prepared, the husband noticed that the wife trimmed off a corner from the Christmas ham. "Why do you do that?" he asked. "Is it to increase the flavor? Shorten the cooking time? Why"

"I'm not exactly sure," his wife replied. "My mother used to do it, and I learned it from her. She's setting the table, perhaps you can ask her."

The husband, his curiosity piqued, sauntered into the dining room and besought his mother-in-law. "I just saw that my wife trimmed a corner off the Christmas ham, and I was curious as to why she did that. She said she learned it from you. Is it to increase the flavor? Shorten the cooking time? Why?" he inquired.

His mother-in-law reflected for a moment and replied "well, I'm not really sure why I do that. But I do it because my mother always did it. She's sitting in the living room - maybe you should ask her."

The diligent husband continued his quest for the mystery of the trimmed Christmas ham, and went to his wife's grandmother. "Grandma," he pleaded, "I just watched my sweetie trim the christmas ham, and it got me to wondering why she does that. Is it to increase flavor? Is it to shorten cooking time? She told me to ask her mother, and Mother has now directed me to you."

Grandma rocked back in the recliner and mused, "Well, when Pa and I got married, it was in the Depression. We couldn't afford a Roasting Pan, so we had to cook our ham in a pot. But the pot wasn't big enough for the ham, so I cut the corner off so that it would fit in the pot."

This story is also sometimes called "Grandma's Hams".

-- Anonymous, November 27, 2001

Rev. Paris reminded me of my time in seminary. Regarding traditions. I am a graduate of Princeton Seminary which is a presbyterian seminary. And often times when a new idea was proposed for a program. The answer was no! We do things decent and good order, was the response. So often times there was the tradition and no joy. At the time I was in Seminary I was United Methodist. And all students were required to take a polity class (the history and doctrine) of the denomination. Right next to the UM polity class would be the presbyterian polity class. One day one of my presbyterian friends said she always wondered what was going on in our class for their was lots of singing, prayers and testimonies. She wanted to know how we got any work done. I laughed and told her that singing, praising, God and prayer was our polity! For the history of the denomination was told in song and creeds, our testimonies demonstrated the power of God. And our laughter showed that we trusted that he would take care of us! Our polity class was a worship experience. Tradition is important but God, Christ the King and the Holy Spirit have to be the hub on the wheel, tradition, reports, etc are spokes on the wheel. One of the things I discussed with my congregation is to look at Jesus as king, he did not have a palace, he did not have others serve him. He walked and lived among the poor, he wore no crown with jewels, and he did not oppress people. This king, this son of God presents a new model for those of us who are called to be clergy. If we do the things that Christ did, we will grow!! Everything he did was done in love, he always gave the glory to his father. As we are looking at church growth, let us remember that Christianity is the ONLY religion where God comes down to us. He comes daily where we are. We do not have to meditate and hope we find our path to get to him, we do not have to reincarnate to get to him, we do not have to rub crystals to transport ourselves to God. God continues to join us where we are! Rev. Wiggs reminds of what the prophet Habbakuk said when he climbed to the top of the tower and asked how long. For Habbukah had been obedient to God, and everyone else around him was not living the ways of God. God tells Habbukah I am coming, I see all and I will deal with it.(paraphrase)God's time is not our time. Be strong, pray and trust for God will take care of the evil.

-- Anonymous, November 27, 2001
I don't mean to clog the discussion board with this but I am not making the "Christmas Ham" connection with church growth. I've never heard that parable/story before. Please, please make the connection for a sister! (SMILE)

-- Anonymous, November 27, 2001
Thanks to Pastor Paris for bringing up the story of grandma and the ham and thanks also to Bro. Payne for sharing it with us. Traditions in and of themselves are not wrong until we allow traditions to overshadow the powerful truths of God's Word given to us through His Son, Jesus - it's in the Book.

I must agree to some extent with Pastor Paris, however, in my area, the mega churches that have sprung up are not AME churches. They are non-denominational, one has just celebrated 10 years here, one has been here for about five years (an off shoot of Crefelo Dollar) and the other has been here about three years and all of them have memberships in the thousands in comparison to 14 churches in this district that combined might have a membership of 3000 and I might add that may be stretching a bit.

The pastors of the district will say "they've taken our discipline and brushed it off, used what is relevant, and they've grown." My question to them (and naturally nobody wants to hear this) "so, where have we gone wrong?" Nobody will answer the question. I believe it can be summed up in two words "the budget". For some reason, the prevailing thought of AME churches in this area is "the budget". Not soul-saving, not spiritual growth, not out reach ministries, but "the budget".

In this area, I must admit, our people perish for a lack of knowledge spiritually, fundamentally and ecumenically. Where the Word is preached, taught, and practiced with accountability as a by word, people's lives have been changed and the church has grown. When pastor's spend time in the Word studying to show themselves approved a workman rightly dividing the word of truth, the church grows. When integrity and moral values are upheld, the church grows. When the Shephard has a vision and the vision is in line with the TRUTH, the church grows.

In this area, I've seen churches go so far from the Word, until I'm ashamed and I rush rush rush to the comfort of God's Word to be refreshed. Yes, I'm one who will cry out like Habakkuk, O Lord, how long? Yet, I have hope that God who knows our need will supply what we need according to His riches in glory. Therefore, I can sing loudly - Blessed is the man whose hope is in the Lord.

A final thought on the matter, taken from my friend Peter "Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-controlled; set your hope on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed". 1 Peter 1:13 NIV

Will you to pray, fast, and feast with me on The First Epistle General of Peter?

-- Anonymous, November 27, 2001

Belinda I can't speak for Rev. Paris but when I have heard the Christmas Ham story. It is cited as an example of how people do the same thing over and over without questioning why they do. It is as if they do it by rote. The Christmas Ham story illustrates how we can be caught up in a tradition or ritual that in some ways can become a "bad Habit" the implications regarding church growth are interesting. 1.) Are we doing the same thing over and over or are we reflecting the times that we live. Are we using the media, are we focusing on good preaching and sound bilical studies. etc. Or are we doing what we did in the past. Just waiting for people to come through the door. I am sure Pastor Paris will add to what I have said, but I hope this helps a little.

-- Anonymous, November 27, 2001
The lack of growth in the AME church, I believe, is because we are caught up in our traditions, being AME instead of Christians; using the Discipline instead of the Bible. At Macedonia, I stress that we are Christ-like first, called to ministry second and AMEs last. Of course it gets me in trouble with the PE and the bishop, but I have discovered that if you pay all of your claims early, no problem. No, Macedonia is not a "mega-church" but it is growing, people are being saved, former members are returning to the church. And as soon as I finish teaching through the Bible to every member, I will teach the discipline. Oh by the way, as a freshman in college, in an English class (Short stories) we read The Lottery by I believe Shirley Jackson. It is sort of required reading for the University of Texas system. It expresses the same thing. Each year the people in this village selects one person by lottery....I won't spoil it for someone who wants to read this short story.

Blessings,

Pastor Paris

-- Anonymous, November 27, 2001

I am please to hear that there's so many poeple in our connection that feel the same like me and my fellow acf-mates. Will you believe that our local church is almost 100 years in town, the oldest church in town.

Most of the poeple in town use to be members of our local church but left the church cause of traditions. Some older memebers use to sing the song 'give me the AME spirit'and it troubled me alot cause what about the "holy spirit'.We use to be the smallest congregation in town but with the help of the Lord things is busy to change.

I don't say that tradition is bad but if the Holy spirit is in charge of that tradition it can do great things for the church. And PLEASE think about the young people when you practice tradion. You MUST fills the need of the young poeple cause the more young poeple in a church the faster it grow, believe. It's working for us why not for the greater church. Just see it for yourself, if young people leave the church, the church starts to get emptier every day but more young poeple the stronger the church.I am sorry I know that some off you might disagree but I speak from experience.

God bless you all --Jerome

-- Anonymous, November 28, 2001

I applaud you, Pastor Paris, for having the agenda of the church prioritized. The church's foundation is Christ - all other ground is sinking sand. There's no doubt in my mind that you will get some flack from those who are AME's first; those who fit Christ in at their convenience. A story is told of a class in a Christian school whose daily devotions included the Apostle's Creed. Each student repeated a line. Not long after they began, there was silence. The teacher asked what was wrong and a student answered "the boy that believes in the Holy Ghost ain't here". When we get so caught up in traditions, we forget to believe in the Holy Ghost.

My passion for equipping members for service within the Church is wrapped up in Christian Education. My very first pastor in the AME Church would say to us "we have to be sure to educate folk because we have a tendency to take them in with a shout, leave them on the pew in doubt and pretty soon they'll be out". Not only does the preacher have to be equipped so does the pew.

-- Anonymous, November 28, 2001

This has been a great discussion and I have enjoyed reading the responses. First I wish to say that We really need to define or even redefine "Mega" What is a mega church is there a yard stick that helps us measure that? I have some concerns when one of our AME Churches that has 10,000 members are treated differently than the church with 10 members. Or why is it that the pastor at the mega church church isnt held accountable like the pastor at a mission church? I feel that we have done the itineracy of the church diservice when we allow mega pastors to be lone rangers apart from the structure of African Methodism. It is sad to know that some of our megas pastors feel that they can leave the connection whenever they feel they want to because they have 5 10 or 15 thousand members. Richard Allen left St. George because of the inequality of worship that was afforded them and years later there is inequality within our church as it realates to mega churches and mega pastors "whatever" mega means. The AME Church has a lot to offer our youth and every other age group, we must simply have to get back to the basics of out own Mission Statement, because if we uphold those 8 statements there can and will and even must be growth in all our churched whether you pastor in Cito, Pa. or a Harlem NY. The AME Church has one of the most complete and inclusive mission statements that I have come across in a long time and if we use what is ours we will continue to grow has a denomination and a faith for the people of all ethnic backgrounds. I have no problem with the assestments as long as their is annointing, I have no problem with the budget as long as there is power filled bible study, I have no problem with the connection as long as there is conversion happening in the pews I have no problem with the Discipline as long as the Doctrine of the Holy Ghost is taught in the local church. I love Richard Allens Church that has been breathed on by the Holy Spirit to be a vehicle in which people of color , disinfranchised people could hear the word of God grow in His grace and live in Victory and not poverty perversion and pain. Yes thank God for the Mega church but thank God also for the church with 5 members but every Sunday there is a move of God in the house that will turn those 5 into 20 then 70 then 90 then 250 then 300, that is what God can do in our churches if we allow him.

-- Anonymous, November 30, 2001
Rev. Nelson:

Your 11/30/2001 post addresses an important issue, differential treatment within AME congregations. I would submit however that the treatment of every AME church as "equals" paradoxically fosters inequality in outcome. An application of Rawlsian justice (John Rawls, Theory of Justice Harvard Univ Press circa 1980) is my basic model. Larger churches should be treated differently because their resources allow for expanded benefits for the AME Connection. Following Prof. Rawls this promotes "public welfare improvements". Smalller churches at the time should not be held to the same standards (i.e. assements, budget, etc) because this would represent a severe financial constraint and lower the public benefits of the Connection. I have no problem with "mega" churches provided that the public benefits of the Connection are equitably redistributed to all who claim part of the umbrella body. This would meet the Rawlsian litmus test of fairness. The itineracy is not compromised provided that all AME clergy are assured of equality of opportunity to minister. Outcome measures (i.e. differential church size) can and will yield unequal results hence diffenrential treatment is warranted. This is another way of restating the tried and true statement, "To much is given, much is required". QED

-- Anonymous, November 30, 2001

Rev. Nelson makes some excellent points about priorities in ministry, but his points are exactly the things that have created our megachurches:

There are other churches in our Zion with similar stories: St. Phillip, Atlanta; First, Los Angeles; St. Mark, Orlando; Oak Grove, Detroit; churches both old and new that are experiencing growth - either spiritually, numerically, or both.

What would greatly benefit our Zion would be the sharing of "Lessons Learned" from all our churches, small and large. This should be an underlying aspect of all our many meetings. When I go to Annual Conference, amidst the "roof repaired" and "new carpet" reports, I often hear how life is breathed into dry bones - men's ministry, home building, family bible study, teen night, prayer nights - programs that bring people together to work together and be concerned for each other that all might grow together in the Lord. Let's encourage these testimonies among our churches, that none may be left behind.

-- Anonymous, November 30, 2001

Well, I guess one of the lessons that all pastors can learn is that all pastors have different "gifts". This may be a controversial thing to say, but I believe church "growth" to "mega proportions" is a gift that not all pastors share. Some pastors have the gift of evangelism, some healing, some administration, others the gift of teaching, pastoral care, and the gift of church growth. Everyone does not share that gift. Some pastors have the gift of growing churches and attracting people to churches but they do not have the gift of "retention" -- i.e. the gift to keep those people that they bring on board. Some pastors may have the gift of "mega church growth", however, they may be lowsy communicators and lowsy administrators. (I know that everything should not be on the pastor). Everyone is not going to grow a mega church, no matter how hard they try and no matter how much info they receive. However, I do think more stories need to be shared and more workshops need to be conducted on the subject. I also agree that "mega church growers" are often more respected than those that do not grow churches to those proportions.

-- Anonymous, December 03, 2001
Your comments are so thought provoking I could not resist adding mine. I realize that I am entering this discussion late but I still must comment. It matters to me. In my experience, churches that remove the AME designation are on a "slippery slope" and some eventually slide right out of the Connection. (I have a couple of examples that I will not share in this format.) My other comments are: 1) I agree with aj that not everyone can grow a mega-church and add that not everyone WANTS to grow a mega church - especially if it means dropping A.M.E from the name. 2) Churches calling themselves Non-Denominational churches do indeed constitute a denomination! 3) Non-denominational churches are composed of people from many faith traditions. They bring with them the various doctrines, theologies and religious practices from their former denominations - even so- called converts picked up from the street have some semblance of religiosity. The result is a "mishmash" of sometimes conflicting theologies and goals which can lead to physical and emotional conflict and "cognitive dissonance." 4) Being a traditional A.M.E and a spirit filled Christian are not mutually exclusive. 5)The AMEC doctrine and polity are scripturally based, orderly and tested by time and scholarship. Although, because of human weakness, they are not practiced perfectly, it is within our power to make them work. Finally, I intend to hold the line, conduct worship services that combine traditional and contemporary worship styles, stand on the Word of God. When those who have been lured away by popular religion, false doctrine and empty promises; when their "itchy ears" have been scratched to the point of bleeding, they will look for churches where they will be fed the pure Word of the gospel, be empowered and liberated. God bless you all. Peace! Rev. Jan

-- Anonymous, December 05, 2001
Rev. Jan

Amen! Amen! and again I say Amen!

-- Anonymous, December 05, 2001

I say Ament also Rev. Swift. Thank you.

-- Anonymous, December 05, 2001
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