After Danny posted the quote from the Robert Schuller interview of Billy Graham I decided to check with the BGEA to see if this was true. Here is there response that I received today:

Dear Barry, Thank you for corresponding with us. It is good to know that you were able to locate us. We appreciate your interest in and concern about the interview with Dr. Graham which was conducted by Rev. Robert Schuller in 1997. Some have expressed the concern that Mr. Graham is now endorsing the view that God's salvation extends even to those who do not yet know or follow Jesus Christ. We want to assure you that the intent of your message has been directed to Mr. Graham. As a ministry, we take the comments and concerns we receive seriously. We hope to clarify Mr. Graham's position. Shortly after the interview Mr. Graham responded in his newsletter: "In all our Crusades we place a prominent banner with Jesus' words, 'I am the Way, the Truth and the Life.' We put that verse there because people live in a confused world, with so many competing religious voices calling men and women to follow them. But Christ is distinctive and exclusive about the way to God. There can be no true Christianity apart from Him. While some of the ethics and idealism of other religions may run parallel to Christian teachings, the fact remains, as stated by Jesus Christ, 'No man cometh unto the Father but by me' (John 14:6, KJV). "Over the years I have met people with many religious and philosophical views. Many of them have had deep commitment to their beliefs. But I have become even more convinced of the uniqueness and the truth of Christ and His Gospel. And I want to continue preaching it as long as possible." In addition, Mr. Graham followed up with a message printed in DECISION magazine: "Only because Jesus is God and only when we have confessed Him as Savior and Lord, can He bestow, and we receive, this blessed assurance and hope." (If you have Internet access, you can read Mr. Graham's entire article "The Only Way" on the DECISION magazine Web site at www.decisionmag.org). He has also said, "The Bible says all men have some light given by God, both in the Creation and in the human conscience. Whoever sees the footsteps of the Creator in nature can ask the God he does not fully know for help, and I believe God--in ways we may not fully understand--will give that person further light and bring him to a KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH THAT IS IN JESUS CHRIST so he will be saved. He may use our preaching or He may use any other way He chooses, but ultimately it is God, not we, who saves men." At the time of the interview, Mr. Graham was struggling with physical symptoms related both to Parkinson's disease and a then undiagnosed problem involving fluid on the brain. These issues, in addition to his age, were evidenced by a weariness and instability in many areas of his life. We believe that, under the pressure of a live interview, Mr. Graham may have become sidetracked and acknowledged something he has never believed. Perhaps these observations will make certain to your mind and heart what is the essence and direction of Mr. Graham's ministry. We recognize that our world is full of "false teachers." Mr. Graham would be among the first to take a stand against anything that would threaten to weaken or discredit the truth of the gospel. His earnest desire and life commitment has been, and is, to present the gospel clearly and accurately. Be assured that Mr. Graham's heart is fixed on this one purpose. We know that, as the Lord gives him strength, Mr. Graham intends to continue to call all men and women to come to the foot of the cross and accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. Our prayer is that God, in His wisdom and mercy will assist you as you seek His mind and heart. May God richly bless you. Sincerely, John Zimmer Christian Guidance Department Billy Graham Evangelistic Association

-- Anonymous, November 20, 2001

Answers

John....

Eating meats (or not eating them)......and denying the Gospel.....are two different things.

-- Anonymous, December 17, 2001

John Zimmer's rear end has to be sore as that is some of the finest fence riding I have seen in a while!!! I believe he rode that one for 8 seconds!!!

In other words...."We are not denying he said it. We can't. It's in print....it's on line...it's on video. So let's explain it away."

Sorry Barry...it doesn't fly. You got caught and you turn to your denominational friends to try to bail you out.

What a shame!!

-- Anonymous, November 20, 2001

Danny,

I guess I don't understand your point. I was concerned, as all Christians should be, with the quotes you posted. I wrote to the BGEA to get it from the horse's mouth. I made no comment about their explanation, but simply posted it.

I do find it a credible explanation and will continue to defend Billy Graham and his ministry which God continues to bless.

-- Anonymous, November 20, 2001

Brethren:

Brother Davis is all aglow about what he has falsely claimed to be a response from Billy Graham which was in fact a response from someone in Billy Grahams Association and not from Billy Graham at all. Now Billy Graham has been a false teacher for a long time before he began to teach this nonsense about salvation being extended to those who never knew Christ. For he has always taught the false doctrine of “Salvation by faith only” and continues to do so. But let us examine the response of Mr. Zimmer, NOT BILLY GRAHAM, on Billy Graham’s behalf.

Brother Davis says:

“After Danny posted the quote from the Robert Schuller interview of Billy Graham I decided to check with the BGEA to see if this was true.”

Well, as we shall see, it was in fact quite true that Billy Graham did say the things that Brother Danny quoted from his interview with Mr. Shuller, now didn’t he? And we notice that Brother Davis does not have the honesty and the integrity to admit that Billy Graham in fact said these things even when he received a letter from the “BEGA” which admits as much. Why do you not admit that Brother Danny correctly quoted the interview and that he correctly pointed out to every one that Billy Graham said these things? It is obvious Brethren, that Brother Davis is bent upon supporting this false teacher no matter what false doctrines he teaches.

Then he gives us the response from the BGEA as follows:

“ Here is there response that I received today: Dear Barry, Thank you for corresponding with us. It is good to know that you were able to locate us. We appreciate your interest in and concern about the interview with Dr. Graham which was conducted by Rev. Robert Schuller in 1997.”

Now they are glad that our Brother Davis is “interested” and “concerned” but we notice that they do not deny that Billy Graham made the statements that were attributed to him by Brother Danny and Brother Davis is no longer concerned that he made them. He is just so happy to have received a response from the BGEA! He does not care in the least that he has seen the very words of Billy Graham, which were:

“'I think everybody who knows Christ, whether they're conscious of it or not, they're members of the Body of Christ.....God's purpose is to call out a people for His name, whether they come from the Muslim world, Buddhist world, the Christian world, or the non-believing world, they are members of the Body of Christ, because they have been called by God. They may not even know the name of Jesus.....and I think they are saved, and that they are going to be in heaven with us.'”

Brother Davis wants us to forget those words, now doesn’t he? And we notice that Mr. Zimmer did not bother to repeat them and explain them all he did was admit that Billy Graham made them but he did not mean what he ACTUALLY SAID!

Then Mr. Zimmer told Brother Davis:

“Some have expressed the concern that Mr. Graham is now endorsing the view that God's salvation extends even to those who do not yet know or follow Jesus Christ.”

You had better believe that some people are concerned about it! In fact this is exactly what Mr. Graham said and we repeat his words one more time for all to see. Mr. Graham said the following:

“'I think everybody who knows Christ, whether they're conscious of it or not, they're members of the Body of Christ.....God's purpose is to call out a people for His name, whether they come from the Muslim world, Buddhist world, the Christian world, or the non-believing world, they are members of the Body of Christ, because they have been called by God. They may not even know the name of Jesus.....and I think they are saved, and that they are going to be in heaven with us.'”

So, you can see just WHY others are “concerned” about what he said. WE are just as concerned about that false doctrine which Billy Graham, admittedly by even those associated with him did in fact teach as we are about his false doctrine of “salvation by faith only” which he has ALWAYS taught. And Brother Davis is not concerned in the least bit about the fact that Billy Graham has always taught the false doctrine of salvation by faith only. And he is now not in the least bit concerned that Billy Graham has actually taught that those who do not even “know the name of Jesus Christ” will be saved even after the BGEA has admitted that he did in fact teach such false doctrine. WE now have a quotation from Billy Graham teaching that those who have never heard of Jesus Christ are going to heaven without even knowing his name. And we have the BGEA ADMITTING the truthfulness that Billy Graham did in fact teach such nonsense and Bother Davis is not concerned in the least bit. He is so satisfied that they took the time to even respond to his letter that he just cannot see that Billy Graham actually taught this nonsense and even the BGEA admits that he taught it. Yet he says to us, “I do find it a credible explanation and will continue to defend Billy Graham and his ministry which God continues to bless.” Now Brethren, Brother Davis finds this response from the BGEA a “credible explanation” even though nothing that they have said “explains anything” but only seeks to “excuse” it. And there is a big difference between “explaining” something and seeing to be “excused” for having done it. But, Brother Davis does not care what Billy Graham teaches. He is obviously going to support him anyway.

But Mr. ZIMMER, NOT BILLY GRAHAM, says:

“We want to assure you that the intent of your message has been directed to Mr. Graham.”

Now isn’t this a fine bunch of nonsense. Brother Davis’ MESSAGE was not even given to Billy Graham but only the “INTENT” of his message was conveyed to him! Ha! And Mr. Graham is not even concerned enough about the “INTENT” of Brother Davis letter to even lower himself to ANSWER IT. And we do wonder why Mr. Zimmer did not way for a reply from Mr. Graham to the INTENT of Brother Davis’ letter and give Brother Davis the benefit of a REPLY from the man who taught this false doctrine in the presence of thousands. He is able to speak to thousands of people all over the world but he cannot give a simple reply to one simple question that Brother Davis asked about? Billy Graham has admittedly taught a doctrine contrary to all that Christ taught and he simply refuses to reply! Instead Brother Davis gets a reply from someone who makes excuses and pretends to know what Mr. Graham really intended in his heart when he said these things.

Then Mr. Zimmer continues as follows:

“ As a ministry, we take the comments and concerns we receive seriously.”

WE do not doubt that! Ha! But Mr. Graham is not very seriously concerned about hem, now is he? For contrary to Brother Davis’ deliberate lie that this is a response from Billy Graham it is in reality a response from is Evangelistic Association for him. And we do not know if he is even aware of what they have said in his behalf or even if he would agree with it or not. But Brother Davis wants all of us to think that this response is from BILLY GRAHAM himself! No, Brethren, this is a feeble attempt of Billy Graham’s Evangelistic Association to excuse Billy Graham’s false teaching. And Brother Davis is so elated that they would even respond to him that he just swallows their nonsense hook, line and sinker! He should be ashamed but we doubt if he has the capacity for shame!

Then Mr. Zimmer says:

“We hope to clarify Mr. Graham's position.”

Now, this is ridiculous! Why not let Mr. Graham “clarify” his own position? In fact, if you sense that it needs to be “clarified” then why not arrange for Mr. Graham to repudiate the very words that you have admitted that he has in fact said to thousands of people? Ha! There can be no clarification of those words. If Mr. Zimmer wants Mr. Graham’s POSITION clarified then he should arrange for Mr. Graham to REPUDIATE THE WORDS WHICH HE SPOKE if they are in conflict with the “POSITION” that he really holds in his heart! Now that would clarify his position quite well, wouldn’t it? But, no, he does not do that. Instead he has his cronies see to “justify his words” and if that fails he has them attempt to “excuse them.

Then we are told:

“ Shortly after the interview Mr. Graham responded in his newsletter: "In all our Crusades we place a prominent banner with Jesus' words, 'I am the Way, the Truth and the Life.'”

Well, now that is just fine for you would not get much support from those who believe in Christ if you failed to make some such display, now would you? But it is pathetically contradictory to put up that banner and then say these words: “'I think everybody who knows Christ, whether they're conscious of it or not, they're members of the Body of Christ.....God's purpose is to call out a people for His name, whether they come from the Muslim world, Buddhist world, the Christian world, or the non-believing world, they are members of the Body of Christ, because they have been called by God. They may not even know the name of Jesus.....and I think they are saved, and that they are going to be in heaven with us.'”

Then we are told:

“ We put that verse there because people live in a confused world, with so many competing religious voices calling men and women to follow them.”

Yes, you put that verse in there and then stand up and teach that all these “competing voices” in this “confused world” that are calling men and women to follow them are actually leading them to CHRIST without their even knowing it! And that they are going to be saved even if they have never heard of CHRIST! Now that is what Billy Graham said and since Mr. Zimmer cannot give us a good answer maybe Mr. Graham would like to try to give one himself! But, we doubt if he could succeed.

Then we are told:

“ But Christ is distinctive and exclusive about the way to God.”

Indeed that is true and it makes us wonder How Mr. Graham figured that people who have NEVER HEARD OF CHRIST are going to be saved without even “knowing his name” as Billy Graham taught in his interview with Mr. Shuller?!

Then we are told:

“ There can be no true Christianity apart from Him.”

Indeed this is also true. Then do explain to us just how it is that anyone can be a TRUE CHRISTIAN without even “knowing the name of Christ” as Billy Graham claimed they could?

Then we are told:

“ While some of the ethics and idealism of other religions may run parallel to Christian teachings, the fact remains, as stated by Jesus Christ, 'No man cometh unto the Father but by me' (John 14:6, KJV).”

Now we are still searching for the “explanation” that Brother Davis claimed was so “credible”. And thus far we have not heard a single word that even makes the slightest ATTEMPT to EXPLAIN to us why Billy Graham pretends on the one hand that he believes that salvation is only through Christ. And says on the other that one can be saved without even KNOWING or even acknowledging the name of Christ. So, far we haven’t read any explanation at all much less a “credible” one! So what that means is that Brother Davis accepts NO EXPLANATION as being a “credible” one. Now that does not give us much confidence in the “credibility” of Brother Davis’ claim that the above failure to “explain” was in fact a “credible explanation” now does it?

Then we are further told:

"Over the years I have met people with many religious and philosophical views.”

SO, what? Did you recommend that they accept Billy Graham’s nonsense that they could be saved even if they did not even “know the name of Christ”?

Then we are told:

“ Many of them have had deep commitment to their beliefs.”

So what does this “explain about Billy Graham’s comments to Mr. Shuller? It simply explains NOTHING about those comments, now does it? And just because someone is “committed to their beliefs” does not necessarily make their beliefs TRUE. For the word of God makes it clear that “there is a way that seemeth right to a man but THE END THEREOF DEATH”. So, just because one is sincere and committed to what he or she believes is not sufficient to save them without even “knowing the name of Christ” as Billy Graham falsely taught, now is it?

Then we are told:

“ But I have become even more convinced of the uniqueness and the truth of Christ and His Gospel.”

If one is “convinced” of the uniqueness and the truth of Christ and His gospel” he cannot become “more convinced of it. If he is not fully convinced of it then he is not convinced of it at all. Convinced is not a matter of degrees. One is either convinced of the truth or they are in doubt of it. There is not middle ground. Now one can be convinced and as life goes on they can find more good reasons to believe that which they have long since been convinced was true but they cannot be more convinced. So, it sounds as if Mr. Zimmer was operating from a basis of doubt to begin with.

But he tells us:

“ And I want to continue preaching it as long as possible."

So what does this have to do with the statement made by Mr. Graham to the effect that those who had never even heard the name of Christ would be saved? And we do recommend that if you wish to preach as long as possible that you make sure that what you preach is the TRUTH of the gospel of Christ. Rather than the imaginations of a feeble old man who never taught the truth of the gospel in his entire life.

Then we are informed:

“ In addition, Mr. Graham followed up with a message printed in DECISION magazine: "Only because Jesus is God and only when we have confessed Him as Savior and Lord, can He bestow, and we receive, this blessed assurance and hope."”

Now this is not the truth either, now is it? This is a repeating of the old false doctrine that Billy Graham has been know for teaching all these years. The false doctrine of salvation by faith only! It is not enough to merely “confess Christ savior and Lord”. For the truth is that he is not your savior until you obey him as your LORD. For Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all them that OBEY HIM (Heb. 5:8,9).

Then we are told:

“ (If you have Internet access, you can read Mr. Graham's entire article "The Only Way" on the DECISION magazine Web site at www.decisionmag.org).”

WE have the Internet and have yet to find any explanation of the words of Billy Graham, which he said to Mr. Shuller in 1997 and he has had PLENTY OF TIME to explain it.

Then Mr. Zimmer says:

“He has also said, "The Bible says all men have some light given by God, both in the Creation and in the human conscience. Whoever sees the footsteps of the Creator in nature can ask the God he does not fully know for help, and I believe God--in ways we may not fully understand--will give that person further light and bring him to a KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH THAT IS IN JESUS CHRIST so he will be saved. He may use our preaching or He may use any other way He chooses, but ultimately it is God, not we, who saves men."”

Yet still we ask, WHERE IS THE EXPLANATION of why Mr. Graham said that one could be saved who never heard of Christ nor even knew his name? For we are told that “faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God (Romans 10:17). So, if one does not hear the word of God he CANNOT HAVE FAITH! SO, according to Billy Graham one can be saved without faith in Christ! Now what we asked for was an explanation of Billy Graham’s words in view of what the scriptures teach! We can easily see that God might lead one to the truth by various means but the scriptures teach that it was God’s will that “through the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.” (1 Cor. 1:18). And the very theme of the book of Romans is that the “gospel is God’s power to save” (Romans 1:16). No one in this world is going to be saved who has not OBEYED THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST. For Christ is coming and he will punish those who “KNOW NOT GOD AND OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL” (2 Thess. 1:7-11). And we know that it is God who saves and not we! That is not the issue. That is not the question! The question is very simple. And thus far it has not even been remotely touched upon by Mr. Zimmer, The question is, “what justification can be given for the fact, which you admit is true, that Billy Graham taught that one can be saved without even knowing the name of Christ. How can they “confess his name” if they do not even KNOW IT?

So, failing to have any reasonable EXPLANATION for Billy Graham’s words Mr. Zimmer now seeks to “excuse them” by appealing to our sympathies for a sick, and frail old man as follows:

“ At the time of the interview, Mr. Graham was struggling with physical symptoms related both to Parkinson's disease and a then undiagnosed problem involving fluid on the brain.”

WE are not happy about Mr. Graham’s illness. WE deeply regret that he is aging and suffering and is nearing the time when he will face Christ in the judgement having taught so much false doctrine and lead thousands of people away from the truth of the gospel of Christ. It is our hope that he will turn from teaching such false doctrines before his frailty ends his life on this earth. But, instead his frailty is now being used as an EXCUSE for his false doctrines that are getting WORSE the longer he preaches.

Now, we can understand how an old man who is very ill with such a disease could say something that is contrary to what he has always believed. And if this is, indeed, what happened, it would indeed be a good “excuse” for his having said such things. But it would not be a “credible explanation” of the things that he said, now would it? For the things that he said are indeed the kinds of contradictions that one with “water on the brain” might say. But it would not be truth and he is not observed or excused because of his illness for failing to come out in public and openly repudiate the things he said while under the serious stress of physical illness. Especially when he knows that many people will believe what he says JST BECAUSE HE SAYS IT. And it is definitely no excuse for the years of teaching the false doctrine of “salvation by faith only” which he taught when he had no such illness to “excuse him”. And we do wonder why Mr. Zimmer does not openly RPUDIATE the thins that Billy Graham said to Mr. Shuller and simply say to all that Mr. Graham was very ill and he did not mean to say those things. And then let Mr. Graham, when his health permits, stand up in front of the world and repudiate those remarks. Let him tell the world what Mr. Zimmer has told Brother Davis. Let him repudiate those words by telling us that they were the absurd words of an old and sick man that was too weak of mind at the time he said them to even be aware of what he was saying. WE could accept this as being reasonable. But not unless there is an open repudiation of the errors that he taught. SO, long Billy Graham is not willing to repudiate his words we have no reason to doubt that he meant to say them. And we do not excuse him for saying them until he repudiates them and ask us to excuse him upon the basis of his health problems. But for Mr. Zimmer to not even repudiate forcefully what Mr. Graham said and then ask us to excuse him because he was very ill when he said them is without excuse itself. First, Mr. Zimmer admits that Billy Graham had said those words. Which incidentally were something that Brother Davis had refused to believe and the reason he wrote to see if it was true. Then why does he not acknowledge that the BGEA admits that what Danny reported Billy Graham, as having said was in fact the truth? And If Mr. Zimmer does not believe them to be true then why is he unwilling to state plainly that Billy Graham taught something on that day during that interview with Mr. Shuller that was not the truth. And that what he taught not only contradicted what Billy Graham had taught most of his life but it also contradicted the VERYD OF GOD. Now we know that Billy Graham has contradicted the word of God his entire preaching career and has made no excuse for it. But now, Mr. Zimmer, since he cannot deny that Mr. Graham made those statements. And since he cannot “explain” them he seeks instead to “excuse” Mr. Grahams words without repudiating them! And this nonsense is unacceptable to anyone who cares the very least about the truth!

Then we are told:

“ These issues, in addition to his age, were evidenced by a weariness and instability in many areas of his life.”

We understand and sympathize with his suffering. So, why not repudiate what he said and admit that he is not well enough to be preaching his false doctrines about salvation by faith only any more and retire this false teacher from continuing to deceive others whether he is doing it deliberately or because he has health problems?

Then you say:

“ We believe that, under the pressure of a live interview, Mr. Graham may have become sidetracked and acknowledged something he has never believed.”

Well, we appreciate the admission in this statement that Mr. Graham did in fact say the words that were attributed to him. And we wonder why our Brother Davis did not notice this. And we also appreciate the fact that Mr. Zimmer has the good sense to admit that he does not know whether Mr. Graham really believed what he said or not. For he says That Mr. Graham “MAY HAVE’ become “side tracked”. Now we do not doubt that Mr. Graham has for his entire career been “side tracked” by Satan from the truth of God’s word concerning how one is to be saved from sin. And we are convinced that this same Satan has side tracked him yet again from the truth as taught by the doctrine of Christ. But that NO ONE of his associates is willing to call upon him to repent of having said that which was contrary to the truth and repudiate it and correct it and ask for forgiveness himself is hard to understand! Let Mr. Graham SPEAK FOR HIMSELF. Mr. Zimmer does not know if Mr. Graham was simply “side tracked” by the “pressure of the interview”, now does he? He admits that he is not certain of it. And we find it hard to believe that any interview would create very much “pressure” for a man who has spent his life in them. We doubt that it would create enough pressure to cause him to say such STUPID, ignorant and completely untrue things as he said to Mr. Shuller.

Then we are told:

“ Perhaps these observations will make certain to your mind and heart what is the essence and direction of Mr. Graham's ministry.”

Oh, we know the “essence” and the “direction” of Mr. Graham’s so called “ministry”. He has taught the false doctrine of salvation by faith only for his entire career and thus the essence of his ministry is the essence of a lie. For James says, “ye see then how that by works a man is justified and not by faith only”. But Billy Graham teaches the direct opposite of the inspired James on this matter. And the direction of his ministry has been away from the truth. And his words to Mr. Shuller only shows how far he is willing to go from the truth. If this is not the case then let him repudiate those lies that he taught in the presence of Mr. Shuller. And we wonder if Mr. Zimmer is not admitting in his above remarks that he too does not agree with what Mr. Graham said to Mr. Shuller. If this is true them why does he not send a note to Mr. Graham asking him to speak up and correct this egregious error?

Then we are told:

“ We recognize that our world is full of "false teachers."”

Indeed, the word of God so warns us (1 John 4:1). And we recognize not only that there are many false teachers in the world we also KNOW HOW TO recognize who is a false teacher! And those who teach that which is contrary to the doctrine of Christ are false teachers and this alone numbers Mr. Graham as one of the many false teachers in that are in the world. And the words that he said to Mr. Shuller are false to the core and until he repudiates them he is a false teacher. And until he repudiates the false doctrine of salvation by faith only which he has taught for his entire career. All of which is contrary to the very doctrine of Christ and if he does not ever repudiate those words, correct them, and repent for having taught that which was contrary to the truth he will remain among the FALSE TEACHERS.

Then he says:

“ Mr. Graham would be among the first to take a stand against anything that would threaten to weaken or discredit the truth of the gospel.”

Then why has he not been “among the first” to take a stand against his own words which were spoken to Mr. Shuller which were contrary to the truth? For those words are in fact designed by Satan to be contrary to the gospel of Christ.

Then we are told:

“ His earnest desire and life commitment has been, and is, to present the gospel clearly and accurately.”

We do not know how Mr. Zimmer can tell us what is Mr. Graham’s intent. How does Mr. Zimmer know the intention of Mr. Graham’s heart? WE only know what he has done and thus far he has been teaching contrary to the truth all of his life. And he has never accurately taught the “gospel of Christ”.

Then we are told:

“ Be assured that Mr. Graham's heart is fixed on this one purpose.”

Now on what bases can we “be assured” by Mr. Zimmer of anything about the fixation of Mr. Graham’s heart? WE are assured from his actual teachings that he is opposed to the truth of the gospel of Christ.

Then we are told:

“ We know that, as the Lord gives him strength, Mr. Graham intends to continue to call all men and women to come to the foot of the cross and accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.”

WE would refer that Mr. Graham speak for himself concerning his “intentions” but we know that from his teachings he has been teaching men that they can be saved by “faith only” and that doctrine is not the gospel of Christ. In fact that false doctrine is completely counter to the doctrine of Christ and has led thousands away from Christ while deceiving them into believing that they were actually Christians when they were not.

Then we are told:

“ Our prayer is that God, in His wisdom and mercy will assist you as you seek His mind and heart.”

God, through his word has made it possible for us to know when men are teaching that which is contrary to the truth. And Mr. Graham is one of those and it is the will of God that we oppose such men. (Jude 3; 1 John 4:1; Romans 16:17; 2 John 9-11). So, we do not need a hypocritical prayer for us by those who teach that which is contrary to the word of God. To those, even their prayers and an abomination!

Then we are told:

Then we are told:

“ May God richly bless you.”

God has richly blessed all men with his inspired word and men such as Mr. Zimmer do not care enough about that rich blessing to insist that those who teach contrary to it be corrected.

Then of course Mr. Zimmer tells us “who he is” as follows:

“ Sincerely, John Zimmer Christian Guidance Department Billy Graham Evangelistic Association”

The guidance he has provided thus far is for us Christians to just accept what Billy Graham said to Mr. Shuller without any explanation and that if it offends us to just excuse it on the basis of Mr. Graham’s health. But he does not guide us away from the false doctrine that Mr. Graham taught and he does not repudiate Mr. Graham’s words as be completely contrary to the truth. And he does not allow us to hear from Mr. Graham ourselves. Instead he seeks to excuse such egregious errors and false doctrines and our Brother Davis joins him in it and supports this false teacher fully. The reasons for Mr. Davis’ actions are clear. False teachers support one another and he is a partaker in Billy Graham’s evil deeds. (2 John 9- 11).

But we can see from the above letter that it is an established fact that Billy Graham did in fact say:

““'I think everybody who knows Christ, whether they're conscious of it or not, they're members of the Body of Christ.....God's purpose is to call out a people for His name, whether they come from the Muslim world, Buddhist world, the Christian world, or the non-believing world, they are members of the Body of Christ, because they have been called by God. They may not even know the name of Jesus.....and I think they are saved, and that they are going to be in heaven with us.'”

And that this is, in fact, contrary to the truth of the doctrine of Christ.

And we have also seen that no one has even attempted to “explain it”. And we have seen that all they have sought to do is to “excuse it”.

And we have seen that Brother Davis is in full support of such nonsense! Yet he claimed that he would be very concerned if he found out that Billy Graham actually said what Danny claimed that he said. Hear his words:

“I am checking up on the Billy Graham thread to make sure that he was quoted accurately. If so, I'll be the first to condemn him.”

Well, we can tell from the response that Brother Davis received from the BGEA that Billy Graham was, IN FACT, ACCURATLEY QUOTED. For Mr. Zimmer does not deny a word of what Mr. Graham is quoted as having said. But does Brother Davis keep his promise to be the “FIRST” to “condemn him”? HA! No, in fact it is too late for him to be the “first” to condemn him. But he indicates from his following words that he is not even going to be the “last” to condemn him. In fact, he has no condemnation for Billy Graham’s false doctrine at all.

Now, Brother Davis knows that Billy Graham was accurately quoted but does he keep his promise to be the “first to condemn” him if he could prove that Billy Graham had been accurately quoted. NO HE DOES NOT. So he LIED TO US AGAIN. Notice his words after learning that Billy Graham had been accurately quoted:

“I do find it a credible explanation and will continue to defend Billy Graham and his ministry which God continues to bless.”

That does not sound like a condemnation to me. Does it sound that way to you? No one reading the response Brother Davis received from the BGEA can fail to notice that they do not claim that Billy Graham was “misquoted”. And they do not even deny that the said the words which were reported that he said to Mr. Shuller. For you see they cannot deny it because it is recorded and he clearly said them. And Brother Davis promised to not only condemn Billy Graham if such were the case but that he would be the FIRST to do so. But now that he knows that Billy Graham was quoted accurately he has nothing to say other than that he continues to support this pathetic false teacher who has been the cause of thousands of men to be turned away from the truth that is in Christ our Lord. What a shame, Brother Davis cannot do anything other then LIE to us. He does not condemn Billy Graham, even after learning that he was accurately quoted as saying:

““'I think everybody who knows Christ, whether they're conscious of it or not, they're members of the Body of Christ.....God's purpose is to call out a people for His name, whether they come from the Muslim world, Buddhist world, the Christian world, or the non-believing world, they are members of the Body of Christ, because they have been called by God. They may not even know the name of Jesus.....and I think they are saved, and that they are going to be in heaven with us.'”

Now, Brother Davis, that is what the man is accurately quoted as saying. Let us here your condemnation of the above words of Billy Graham as you promised. Or will you come in here and DEFEND those words? You have not condemned as you promised but instead expressed your intent to continue to defend this deliberate false teacher. But, we would expect you to defend other false teachers inasmuch as you are a false teacher yourself.

Brethren, beware of such self-contradictory and lying men.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, November 22, 2001

E. Lee,

I obviously was alarmed at the post Danny put up quoting Billy Graham. That is why, unlike you, I decided to give the man the benefit of the doubt to find out if he really said those words. His spokesman admitted that he did speak those words. From everything I have read and heard from Billy Graham, both before and after those comments were made, I was amazed that he could make them, as he has always stood for Jesus being the exclusive means to salvation.

If you choose to not accept the BGEA's explanation, that is up to you. But based on Billy's faithfulness to the Gospel for so many years, and the reasonable explanation provided, I choose to believe them. You can believe what you want. Obviously, I am more willing to accept a brother's mistake than you are.

(Rom 5:1) Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

-- Anonymous, November 22, 2001

Billy Graham has been faithful to the Gospel...depending on what your definition of the Gospel is....

If the gospel is the facts of Jesus' death, burial and resurrection, and that alone, I would agree.

If the gospel is not only the "salvation" but the instructions as to how to appropriate that salvation, then Billy has been unfaithful.

-- Anonymous, November 22, 2001

Brethren:

Take notice of Brother Davis’ excuse for not keeping his promise to our readers in this forum, which was as follows:

“I am checking up on the Billy Graham thread to make sure that he was quoted accurately. If so, I'll be the first to condemn him.”

After reading our previous post he simply again ignored our pointing out the fact that he has not done what he promised he would do if he could be sure that Mr. Graham was quoted correctly he says:

“E. Lee, I obviously was alarmed at the post Danny put up quoting Billy Graham.”

And do tell us Brother Davis just why you were so alarmed? Was it because you learned that Billy Graham appeared to have taught that one could be saved without even knowing the name of Christ? If this is true then once you learned the truth that he did in fact teach those very things and that all of his words concerning that matter had been accurately quoted then do tell us why you are no longer alarmed? Especially in view of the simple fact that Billy Graham has not repudiated his words and has not even made the slightest attempt to correct his egregious error.

Then he says:

“ That is why, unlike you, I decided to give the man the benefit of the doubt to find out if he really said those words.”

WE did not need to give a man that we already knew to be a false teacher who taught the false doctrine that one is saved by faith only without obedience to the gospel of Christ any benefits at all. And we also need not give him any benefit of doubt when we could see plainly from the shuller interview exactly what he had said. Mr. Graham’s enemies did not record this interview. His friends who have yet to have made any effort to publicly correct his egregious error recorded it. And yes, unlike you we do not give false teachers any benefit of doubt for they do not deserve it. We do not believe in giving them room to pervert the gospel, at will, that you do.

Then Brother Davis says:

“ His spokesman admitted that he did speak those words.”

And therefore there is no excuse for giving this man any more “benefit of doubt” now is there? And now that you KNOW beyond doubt that Billy Graham did in fact teach that one could be saved without even knowing the name of Christ what do you do about it? You simply accept it as being nothing more than a “mistake”. Even though you told us that if he “was accurately quoted” you would be “the fist to condemn him”. Now, did you tell us the truth when you said those words Brother Davis? Or did you LIE to us? For not only does Mr. Graham’s spokesman admit that Mr. Graham said those very words and that he was therefore “accurately quoted”. But you also admit that he was, in fact, accurately quoted. Yet, we have yet to hear you “condemn him", as you promised that you would, now have we? Much less have you been among the “first to condemn him” as you claimed that you would be if he were accurately quoted, now have you? SO, you’ve lied to us again, now haven’t you?

Then you say:

“ From everything I have read and heard from Billy Graham, both before and after those comments were made, I was amazed that he could make them, as he has always stood for Jesus being the exclusive means to salvation.”

Well, in his interview with Mr. Shuller he did not take any such “stand” now did he? And while you are “amazed” that Mr. Graham said those words you admit that he did in fact say them now don’t you? Yet, you have not “condemned him” as you told us that you would if you found out that he was “accurately quoted”. Well, you now admit that he was accurately quoted but you have not condemned him for saying those things as you claimed you would do now have you? And worse than this Mr. Graham has not yet repudiated his words that he spoke to Mr. Shuller, now has he? And no one else who are his “friends and associates” have repudiated or condemned his egregious error, now have they? What he taught was false to its very core as is the false doctrine of "salvation by faith only", which Billy Graham has taught for his entire career. But he has never repudiated either of those doctrines, now has he? So, Brother Davis you have lied to us yet again. And this is getting to be a habit with you isn’t it?

Then Brother Davis says:

“If you choose to not accept the BGEA's explanation, that is up to you.”

We showed in our last post, and you have ignored it completely, that Mr. Zimmer did not offer ANY explanation. SO there is no “explanation” to be accepted, now is there? Mr. Zimmer did not even make any attempt to “explain” anything to you. He sought to “excuse” it but he could not “explain it” any more than you could explain it. So, we have not heard anything like an explanation that we could either accept or reject. And if Mr. Zimmer wants us to “excuse” Mr. Graham then he needs to persuade Mr. Graham to repudiate his false doctrine that men are “saved by faith only”. And he must persuade him to repudiate his words stated to Mr. Shuller before thousands of lost people which taught that persons could be saved without even knowing the name of Christ. And he would have to convince Mr. Graham to obey the gospel of Christ, which he has never done. Now those three things are not “faithful to the gospel of Christ” but are instead a perversion of the gospel of Christ. It is indeed a perversion for one to falsely claim to be in the body of Christ without ever having obeyed the gospel of Christ as Christ directed. And Mr. Graham is guilty of all three of those accusations. So, we do not “excuse” any false teacher for teaching false doctrine. WE call upon them to trun from their evil ways and come to Christ in obedience to the gospel of Christ and God will forgive them. Otherwise they will face Christ in the judgement and give an account for their deeds. (Acts 17;30; Heb. 9:27).

Then Brother Davis says:

“ But based on Billy's faithfulness to the Gospel for so many years, and the reasonable explanation provided, I choose to believe them.”

You could not prove that Billy Graham has ever once been faithful to the gospel of Christ because he has always taught the completely false doctrine that men are saved by faith only. But, as we have shown before the inspired apostle James said, “ye see then how that by works a man is justified and NOT BY FAITH ONLY” (James 2:24). Now, Mr. Graham has not once in his life preached the gospel of Christ. And you cannot prove that he ever did preach it. And he most surely is teaching contrary to the gospel of Christ and when he taught that men could be saved without even knowing the name of Christ or even hearing about him he was not faithful to the gospel of Christ. And frankly this is one thing that Mr. Graham has in common with Brother Davis. For he too is not faithful to the gospel of Christ in the false doctrines that he teaches concerning baptism for the remission of sins. So, we see here two false teachers supporting one another and pretending to be “faithful to the gospel of Christ which they in fact pervert to serve their own purposes.

Then Brother Davis says:

“ You can believe what you want.”

Now there is no doubt about that, now is there. Indeed we can believe what we want and there is just nothing that you can do about it, is there And we chose to believe the truth taught by our Lord Jesus Christ through his chosen apostles and the inspired writers of the New Testament. And we chose not to believe the false doctrine of “salvation by faith only” as taught by Mr. Graham. And we chose not to believe Mr. Grahams more recent false teaching in the presence of Mr. Shuller that one can be saved without faith in Christ or even knowing the name of Christ. And we are not surprised that Mr. Graham would take such a stand. For if he can reject all of the things connected with the gospel of Christ, including baptism, which is the only way anyone can obey the gospel of Christ (! Cor. 15:1-4; Romans 6:3-6; 16-18; 2Thess. 1:8,9; Heb. 5:8,9) then it is a small step for him to deny that even faith in Christ is essential to salvation. And he has without doubt taken this last step and he has said nothing afterward to repudiate what he said concerning salvation by Christ without faith in Christ. Yet our Brother Davis still supports this pathetic false teacher, doesn’t he? And he does so after promising to “condemn him” if he found out that he had been accurately quoted. But that was just a lie, wasn’t it?

Then he says:

“Obviously, I am more willing to accept a brother's mistake than you are.”

Mr. Graham is not my Brother in Christ. Because in order for Mr. Graham to be my Brother in Christ he would have to first of all be in Christ. And this is done only when one is “baptized into Christ” (Gal. 3:27). And none can be baptized in the name of Christ until they hear the gospel of Christ and obey it from the heart (Romans 6:16-18) and those who do this will be baptized according to the command of Christ which Peter commanded. For Peter said, “repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS” (Acts 2:38). Mr. Graham has not been baptized for the remission of sins for such is contrary to the false doctrine that he teaches others to follow which is that they are saved by “faith only” and that baptism has nothing to do with salvation at all. So, now we are not failing to “accept a brother’s mistake”. And Mr. Graham has not admitted to having made any mistake in what he said to Mr. Shuller. So, you are willing to accept his words as being a “mistake” when he has not admitted to having made any “mistake”. So, far as anyone knows Mr. Graham believed what he said and wanted others to believe it as well. For he has not gone back to correct those words, now has he? And why would you be willing to “accept” this false teacher’s mistake while simultaneously making no effort whatsoever to make sure that everyone realizes what a “mistake” it is and to not believe it just because Billy Graham says it? No, what is true here is that MR. Graham has been caught teaching a false doctrine and none other than us are calling upon him to correct such foolishness. And we are warning people to not allow this evil deceiver to mislead them as he has thousands over the years. Why has Mr. Graham not repudiated his words and made some attempt to make sure that no one takes them and comes to believe what he said as if it were true? Why? There can only be two reasons for this state of affairs with him. Either he does not care or he in fact believes what he said to be true. For he said it and has not repudiated it. And you have promised to condemn him for it but you have not the desire to do so because you do not care if anyone accepts his words as true or you actually believe them yourself.

Then you quote a passage of scripture which is one that Billy Graham has quoted often to support his false doctrine of salvation by faith only as follows:

“(Rom 5:1) Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ”

Now, we suppose that you have done this because you agree with Billy Graham’s false doctrine of salvation by faith only. It surely appears that way doesn’t it? But you do not have the courage to step up to the plate and admit that you believe that one is saved by faith ONLY, now do you? But, if you will read that passage again it says that we have been justified through faith. But it DOES NOT SAY we have been justified “BY FAITH ONLY” now does it? And if it did say such a thing it would be in direct conflict and a contradiction to what James said. For James said, “ye see then how that by WORKS A MAN IS JUSTIFIED AND NOT BY FAITH ONLY”. (James 2:24).

Brethren, we can see from this what may be the reason that Brother Davis does not dislike the false teacher Billy Graham. It may very well be that it is because he agrees with and teaches the same false doctrine that Billy Graham teaches. It seems that he too is attempting to teach the false doctrine of salvation by faith only that Mr. Graham falsely teaches. If this is the case then we simply have further evidence that Brother Davis is a false teacher who is opposed to Christ our Lord and the doctrine that He taught.

Beware of such men brethren.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, November 23, 2001

Duane,

I think the NT is pretty clear that the definition of Gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. No where is baptism mentioned as being a part of the Gospel, just a reaction to the Gospel.

-- Anonymous, November 23, 2001

Barry,

We've gone over this ground before. If the conditions to receive salvation is not included as part of the Gospel, it is no Gospel at all, just a nice idea. The positions you contort yourself and the Scriptures into to maintain relationships with faith-only (or close to it) teachers, absolutely astound me, almost to the point that it's funny - but it's not.

To say baptism is not a part of the Gospel would be like someone telling me, after one of my small children had been missing for days, saying, "I saw him but I won't tell you where." Great news! He's been seen, but how does that restore my child to me? It doesn't. It's incomplete. Just like this nonsense you keep trying to maintain.

Please, cut and paste your Scriptures privately.

-- Anonymous, November 23, 2001

Scott said: If the conditions to receive salvation is not included as part of the Gospel, it is no Gospel at all, just a nice idea.

Barry: Since when does someone have to accept the truth for it to be truth? Remember the old saying, "The Bible says it, I believe it, and that settles it"? It should actually be, "The Bible says it, and that settles it whether I believe it or not". My belief or non-belief does not change truth. My response to the Gospel or non-response to the Gospel does not change the truth of the Gospel. To use your reasoning, the resurrection is not the resurrection unless I act upon the truth of that historic event.

Scott said: The positions you contort yourself and the Scriptures into to maintain relationships with faith-only (or close to it) teachers, absolutely astound me, almost to the point that it's funny - but it's not.

Barry: I've not contorted anything Scott. These are my brothers and sisters in Christ. We have a common faith in Christ's Lordship.

Scott said: To say baptism is not a part of the Gospel would be like someone telling me, after one of my small children had been missing for days, saying, "I saw him but I won't tell you where." Great news! He's been seen, but how does that restore my child to me? It doesn't. It's incomplete.

Barry: Have you ever taken logic? Your analogy doesn't have any connection whatsoever so I won't bother commenting on it.

Scott said: Just like this nonsense you keep trying to maintain.

Barry: I'm sorry you think the Word fo God is nonsense.

Scott said: Please, cut and paste your Scriptures privately

Barry: So now we're not allowed to use Scripture? And you think I take some odd positions?????????????

-- Anonymous, November 23, 2001

Aaaahhhh. It's about time we had some lively conversation here. Barry, I had an image of you with a smirk on your face as you typed your response to Duane knowing it would get me riled up. Anyway...

I certainly agree with you concerning the slogan "God said it...." But God said the whole Word of God, not just the parts you and your buddies want to accept while leaving out others. The power of the Gospel is NOT ONLY that Jesus arose from the grave, but that we can participate in it, having our sins forgiven. To not tell people how to be a part of that is downright cruel and irresponsible.

The news about Jesus' resurrection is great news.... to Jesus. Unless you can tell me how it applies to me and benefits me it is not that great to me, because it doesn't affect me - unless you tell me that it opens up salvation to me, and tell me how to apply what He did on my behalf, it is just news. Your presentation of the Gospel is incomplete, as I stated above.

As a matter of fact, I did have logic and was pretty good at it. Good enough to see yours is faulty. My analogy is a strong one. Mankind has been separated from God by sin. There is hope to be found in the message, but the message you present is incomplete.

As far as the rest of what you said, about thinking the Word of God is nonsense and not allowed to use it - get real. You get upset because someone calls you out when you cut and paste the Scriptures, and then accuse that person of not using the Scriptures or prohibiting them - You crack me up sometimes.

Listen, I appreciate your looking up info on the drums as well as our other civil discussions, and I have never said or thought you're a mean or stupid guy. But your cutting and pasting of the Scriptures is dangerous. It leads people to hell. To leave out baptism, which is the entrance point into the New Covenant is false teaching at it's cruelest.

And whether or not you accept someone as a brother is not a concern. What does God think of them. Have they obeyed the Gospel or do they rebell against by refusing baptism. The Gospel is the WHOLE message, not just parts of it.

-- Anonymous, November 23, 2001

BTW, you said, "Since when does someone have to accept the truth for it to be truth?" Certainly all truth is God's truth. And the truth is that a person must believe the Gospel, Repent of his/her sins and be immersed for the forgiveness of sins. Whether or not you, or anyone accepts that, does not negate the fact that it is the truth.

But you seems determined to try and undermine that truth, which by your own words, you cannot do. The truth is that baptism is a vital part of the Gospel message, but you sir, are the one who keeps trying to undermine that truth. The question that boggles me is... Why?

-- Anonymous, November 23, 2001

Brethren:

Brother Davis says:

“Duane, I think the NT is pretty clear that the definition of Gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.”

Now, anyone who has ever studied the New Testament knows that the Scriptures do not give us a “dictionary type definition” of what the gospel is. And it is not “pretty clear” that the gospel consist of nothing more than the facts concerning the death burial and the resurrection of Christ as Brother Davis asserts. Notice that he does not bother to give us any evidence to support his pathetically false assertion now does he? In fact, he cannot show a single passage in the New Testament that takes up any attempt to give a complete “definition of the gospel. It does describe the gospel in such a way for us to take all that the New Testament says about the gospel and form an accurate definition of just what it is. But the New Testament is not a dictionary and it does not define the gospel in one sentence in any place. It describes it to us in several places and we must take everything the New Testament says about the gospel in order to derive a complete definition of it. So, we will do this beginning with Paul’s words concerning the gospel that he preached to the Corinthians, which gives us a clear picture of the facts of the gospel. And then we will look at the rest of the inspired word of God and see if there is more to the gospel than what Brother Davis would foolishly have you to believe.

The Gospel is according to the New Testament:

1. It is a set of facts to be believed. “Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;” For so Paul describes it, “Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.” (1 Cor. 15:1-8). Therefore according to this statement from the apostle Paul there is a definite set of facts to be believed and therefore a set of facts that must be preached and REMEMBERED, for if they are not remembered persons who believed are in danger of having “believed” these facts “in vain”. And those facts are that Christ died, and that he was buried and that he raised the third day according to not only the testimony of the Old Testament scriptures but also was established by a number of witnesses. And the facts of the gospel include these witnesses to his resurrection who were, Cephas, the twelve, and 500 brethren at once and James, then all of the apostles including the apostle Paul last of all. Now, those are the facts to be believed and therefore preached. And if this were all that the scriptures said about the gospel, that would be more than Brother Davis claims to be a “definition of the gospel” wouldn’t it? But there is more said in the New Testament concerning the nature of the gospel than Brother Davis would like for anyone to be aware of.

2. The gospel is also something that must be obeyed and therefore it consists not only of a set of facts to be believed but also of COMMANDS TO BE OBEYED. For Paul and Peter both made it abundantly clear that the gospel is far more than a simple set of facts concerning Christ that is preached and expected to be believed. For Paul warned the Thessalonians, “Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;” (2 Thess. 1:6-9). Now from this [passage Paul makes it abundantly clear that the gospel is something that must be OBEYED. It is not merely a set of facts we are expected to believe about Christ but it has commands, which are related to the facts of the gospel that must be obeyed. And the New Testament does not sever the FACTS of the gospel from the COMMANDS of the gospel, which are inseparably connected to them. Peter also made it clear that the gospel must be obeyed. For he said, “Yet if [any man suffer] as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?” (1 Peter 4:16-18). SO, again we see that the gospel is not simply a set of facts to be believed but it is more. It consists also of a set of commands to be obeyed. And if the gospel itself is not obeyed then those who fail to obey it will be PUNISHED with EVERLASTING DISTRUCTION. Think about that fact, Brethren. Brother Davis wants everyone to think that the gospel is nothing more than a set of facts that persons are expected to believe. He does not want you to know that it also consist of set of commands to be obeyed in response to it. And, the command to preach the gospel was given to everyone by Christ at the giving of what we have often called the “great commission”. And notice that when he gave this command to preach the gospel he included specifically the requirement that we call upon people to respond to the facts of the gospel by obeying the commands of the gospel as follows: “And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.” (Matt. 28:18-20). Notice that Christ not only told them to teach the facts of the gospel but also told them to baptize men in connection with their preaching of the gospel and to teach them to observe ALL THINGS THAT I HAVE COMMANDED YOU. Now, this was all in connection with the commission of Christ for men to preach the gospel. He did not stop, as brother Davis at the instigation of Satan would have you do, at simply preaching the facts of the gospel but he also told them to require men to obey the command to be baptized in obedience to the gospel. And it is indeed significant that Christ connected these commands to the fact that he has ALL AUTHORITY IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH. So, Brother Davis is flying in the fact of the very authority of Christ with his nonsense that he is attempting to persuade you to believe.

Now, Notice the words of Christ again, “And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” (Mark 16:15,16). Now again we have an account of the great commission which is the command of Christ for men to preach the gospel and again we see not only facts to be preached and believed but commands to be taught and OBEYED in connection with the gospel.

Now all we need do is go to the New Testament for examples of the preaching opt the gospel to see not only are their facts being taught and believed but in every case there are also commands taught and obeyed. Let us look at the very first time the gospel was preached under the great commission and let us see if there is anything connected to it that simple facts to be believed. In acts the second chapter Peter preached Christ and him crucified and raised from the dead. (Acts 2:30-36). And the many Jews believed those facts and said “to Peter and the rest of the apostles men and brethren what shall we do” and then Peter did just as Christ commanded him to do in Mark 16:15,16 and Matthew 28:19,20. He informed them of the commands of the gospel. He said, “repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins”. (Acts 2:38). WE remind you that peter was still doing what Christ commanded when he sent the apostles out to preach the gospel. And included in that was to state the facts about Christ death, burial, and resurrection and to command every one to be baptized at the Lords command for the remission of sins. This therefore was a part of the gospel that Christ sent the apostles out to preach.

Now, let us look at yet another example of the preaching of the gospel. And you will notice in all of the examples of the preaching of the gospel where men received the word of God is that they were all taught to be baptized when the gospel was preached to them. There is simply no exception to this fact in the New Testament. And we also point out that there is not one place wherein men were called upon to “say the sinner’s prayer" as Mr. Graham and Brother Davis like to see happen. But let us look at Phillip as he when about preaching the gospel. The church had been scattered because of the persecution that arose because of Stephen and they went every where preaching the word. “Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.” And among these scattered preachers of the gospel was one name Phillip, one who had been selected along with Stephen to serve the church because they were full of faith and were inspired and guided by the Holy Spirit. And we are told that Phillip came to the Samaritans and preached CHRIST unto them. “Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.” (Acts 8:5). Now all we are told that Phillip preached to them was CHRIST. WE are not told that he preached anything else but Christ. And are we therefore to conclude that he said nothing about the commands of the gospel that Christ connected to the preaching of the gospel? Well, let us see we are told, “And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles, which he did.” (Acts 8:6). They gave head to the things which Phillip spake. And we have been told that he preached CHRIST. Therefore when we see what the things were that they did in giving heed to Phillip preaching Christ we can see what was a part of preaching Christ when inspired men preached Christ. Well, let us see what the Samaritans did. “But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.” (Acts 8:12). So, we see when Phillip preached Christ he also talked about the “kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus (whose name Brother Davis’ fellow false teacher, Billy Graham, says men do not even have to know) THEY WERE BAPTIZED BOTH MEN AND WOMEN. Now isn’t that interesting. Phillip preached only Christ to them and as a result of his preaching Christ, which is the same as preaching the gospel of Christ these men learned about the name of Jesus, the kingdom of God and received and obeyed the gospel by being BAPTIZED. These same men could have heard Billy Graham, and Brother Davis for that matter, preach for a long time and never learn that they must be baptized. But when an inspired man preached the gospel people learned upon hearing the gospel preach that they are to obey the command of Christ to be baptized. But this same preacher of the gospel, Phillip, is found again in another place preaching JESUS. SO let us see how that turned out. “And they, when they had testified and preached the word of the Lord, returned to Jerusalem, and preached the gospel in many villages of the Samaritans.” Now notice what is happening here is the gospel is being preached and so far the preaching of the gospel has included, in every case teaching concerning baptism, hasn’t it? And in the preaching of Billy Graham, and since Brother Davis supports such false teaching we presume that he would preach the same way Billy Graham does it, baptism is not only excluded but DESPISED and rejected as something that has nothing to do with the gospel of Christ!

But Phillip is still preaching so let us read the other account of his being sent by an angel of God to one man preaching Christ. “And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert. And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship, Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet. Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. And Philip ran thither to [him], and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth: In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth. And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.” (Acts 8: 26-35).

Now let us pause here to notice that an angel had not only sent Phillip but also the Holy Spirit told him to join himself to the Eunuch’s chariot. And the Eunuch was doing what more people in this forum should be doing. He was reading from the scriptures and he was reading from Isaiah the prophet. It is interesting to notice that neither the angel nor the Holy Spirit, both of whom knew all about this eunuch, preached anything to him. And it is also interesting to notice that neither the Angel nor the Holy Spirit directly influenced this eunuch in any way. But they saw him reading the scriptures and sent someone to show him the way! SO, if any of you out there are waiting on an angel to preach the gospel to you will wait too long because it is not going to happen. If any of you are waiting for the Holy Spirit to come to preach to you or in some mystical way lead you to Christ, it is not going to happen. You had best be reading the word of God and pay attention when someone comes along to teach you about Christ. That is what this eunuch was doing. And he was eager to learn and brought Phillip into the chariot with him. And then we are told that Phillip preached the same sermon that he had preached to the Samaritans. He again preached unto him JESUS. This is all that we are told that Phillip preached. WE are not told anything else about what he preached. And, as a result of hearing Phillip preach Jesus the first thing that comes to the Eunuch’s mind and out of his mouth a certain water is, “see here is water what doeth hinder me to be baptized? Strange, isn’t it? Phillip preached nothing but Jesus. Which means he preached the gospel of Christ and that is all he preached. Not a single word is said that he preached anything else. But when they came upon water the eunuch was ready to be baptized! Now, this is clear evidence, contrary to Brother Davis’ nonsense that preaching the gospel of Christ INCLUDES not only preaching the facts about Christ but the commands of Christ to be baptized as well. The above examples alone show, contrary to Brother Davis’ false assertion, that baptism was in fact a part of preaching Jesus in the New Testament and it therefore was a part of the gospel of Christ. And we would like to see Brother Davis make an attempt to prove his position from baptism is separate from the gospel of Christ an therefore forms no part of the preaching of it. For the above scriptures show abundantly that Brother Davis is teaching completely counter to the New Testament on this matter. So, he was wrong in his false assertion that “No where is baptism mentioned as being a part of the Gospel, just a reaction to the Gospel.” But the truth is undeniable that everywhere baptism is shown to have been not only a response to the gospel but also a part of the preaching of it. Take the case of Phillip preaching to the eunuch. All Phillip did was preach Jesus. And as a result of hearing Jesus preached, and nothing else, when he came upon water his first response was to say see here is water what doeth hinder me to be baptized. It is as clear as the nose on your face that if baptism did not form a part of the gospel that was being preached it would not and could not have ever been a natural response to the preaching of it, now could it? For how on earth would the eunuch have known that water and baptism it had any connection with Christ it those facts had not formed a vital and important part of the preaching of it? Well, it is clear that it formed a part of the preaching of the gospel when inspired men preached the gospel. And it is equally certain that it forms no part of Billy Graham’s preaching and we are suspicious that it forms also no part of Brother Davis’ preaching. But these men are not preaching the same gospel that Phillip, Peter and Paul preached, now are they? Therefore they are preaching a false or perverted gospel and should be anathema for doing so, shouldn’t they? (Gal. 1:8,9).

Now with the above facts from the scriptures we can see that the gospel of Christ includes facts to be believed and commands to be obeyed. And one of the most prominent commands connected throughout the New Testament, as a part of preaching the gospel is the command to be baptized. Now the facts to be believed include the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Cor. 15:1-4) But we are told to obey the gospel (2 Thess. 1:8,9). Now the only way shown in the New Testament for anyone to obey the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ is to be baptized. Listen to what Paul said about this matter, “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.” (Romans 6:3-6). And this was called by Paul the “obeying from the heart that “FORM OF TEACHING” which was delivered to them. “But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.” ( Rom. 6: 17,18). And what was it that Paul delivered? Surely it was the same gospel that was delivered to the Corinthians. “Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:” (1 Cor. 15:1-4). And when these Romans were “buried with Christ in baptism” they obeyed that FORM OF TEACHING, which they had been delivered. And therefore when they were baptized they obeyed the gospel of Christ. It is that simple and thus baptism is without question a part of the preaching of the gospel of Christ so that it can be a part of the obedience to the gospel of Christ as well.

Now this is the only way that living persons can obey the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. It is the place where we actually OBEY the gospel. And if one does not teach others, when preaching the gospel of Christ that they must be baptized in obedience to the command of Christ then he is not preaching the gospel as did the inspired men who preached the gospel first in the New Testament. And we can tell you surely that one could hear Billy Graham preach for the rest of his life and not learn these things. One could leave a Billy Graham crusade and drive his car off onto the ocean and the last thing that would cross his mind is the baptism that was so a vital part of the preaching of the gospel in the New Testament.

And we will end what we have to say here with the third thing that makes up the gospel.

3. The gospel consists also of promise to be received. “That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: (Eph. 3:6) And again when the gospel was preached the promise of heaven was spoken about. “For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;” (Col. 1:5). Which is far more and beyond the simple facts concerning the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. For this part of the gospel goes beyond the facts we are required to believe and beyond the commands which we have obeyed into the realm of the promises that God will ensure that we receive. These things form a part of the blessed gospel as well, now do they not? For the promises laid up for us in heaven was heard of “before in the word of the truth OF THE GOSPEL”. Now, Brother Davis wants you to stop short of this and just accept the facts of the gospel and ignore the commands of the gospel so that the promises of the gospel have absolutely no effect upon you whatsoever! And this is the reason that we oppose him and his fellow false teacher, Billy Graham, with a passion! We do not want you to miss your reward through the deceptions of such men! Beware Brethren of such men who seek to lead you away from the precious gospel of Christ!

And the certainty of the judgement also forma a part of the gospel of Christ as the following passages makes clear is also a part of the gospel of Christ that was preached by Paul. “In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.” (Romans 2:16).

Those promises consist of the forgiveness of sins. (Acts 22:16) The hope of the resurrection (Romans 6:3-6) Eternal life (Romans 6:23). And it consists of the promise of damnation to those who reject the gospel by refusing to obey it. (Mark 16:15,16; 2 Thess. 1:8,9) For Christ is ever the author of eternal salvation only to those who obey him (Heb. 5:8,9).

Anyone who claims to preach the gospel that does not make preach the facts to be believed, the commands to be obeyed and the promises to be received of the gospel is not preaching the gospel of Christ. Now that is the scriptural definition of the gospel. And there is not one single place in the scriptures where the gospel is specifically defined solely as the facts that Christ died, was buried and raised again. This is only a part of the New Testament description of the gospel of Christ. And the reason these men want us to believe that this is all there is to the gospel is because they want to pervert the gospel and lead us away for all that God’s word has to say about the gospel of Christ. And they do this because they are servants of Satan and not God!

SO, Brother Davis tells us:

“No where is baptism mentioned as being a part of the Gospel, just a reaction to the Gospel.”

Now just think of how absurd this pathetic statement really is, Brethren. How could baptism be “just a response to the gospel” if it formed no part whatsoever of the gospel so that it was not even mention in the preaching of the gospel? How could the eunuch have responded to the gospel by being baptized if, in the process of preaching Jesus he did not learn that baptism was required of him by Jesus Christ according to the great commission when he commanded the apostles to go out an preach. It. Ha! The deceivers of this world do make pathetic mistakes don’t they? For in the very fact of admitting that baptism is a response to the gospel they inadvertently surrender their false contention that it is not a part of the preaching of the gospel, now don’t they? For how is it that "baptism" can be a response to the Gospel without being a part of the preaching of the gospel preached? It obviously formed a very important part of the gospel that was preached by inspired men in the New Testament, now didn’t it?

Billy Graham and Brother Davis are surely not preaching the Gospel, which was delivered by the apostles of Christ, now are they?

So, Brethren, beware of such men for they seek to destroy your souls.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, November 23, 2001

E. Wee,

If I had a cure for cancer, told you about it, but didn't tell you how to receive it, it would still be a cure for cancer. Your "Logic" is appalling.

-- Anonymous, November 24, 2001

Barry,

For someone who says: "Your "Logic" is appalling."

It seems to me that E. Lee is being very logical in that he is using the Word of God to CORRECTLY justify his position, and when you respond to his argument, you only seek to belittle him and cause him and others to respond in kind and you offer NO proof whatsoever of any comment(s) that you have made. This is typical of most of your responses here that I have noticed on this forum.

Here is one example:

Earlier you said: "No where is baptism mentioned as being a part of the Gospel, just a reaction to the Gospel."

Not once have you offered ANY type of proof from the Bible to justify your statement. The reason I believe that you haven't provided any proof for this statement is because the Bible doesn't support your view in any way shape or form. If you can justify the example above, I would like to see where it is in your Bible, because I can't seem to find it in mine?

-- Anonymous, November 24, 2001

Hi Kevin,

You wrote: Earlier you said: "No where is baptism mentioned as being a part of the Gospel, just a reaction to the Gospel."

Not once have you offered ANY type of proof from the Bible to justify your statement. The reason I believe that you haven't provided any proof for this statement is because the Bible doesn't support your view in any way shape or form. If you can justify the example above, I would like to see where it is in your Bible, because I can't seem to find it in mine?

Barry: Kevin, how do I prove something the Bible doesn't say? In other words, the Bible never says that baptism is a part of the Gospel. So how do I offer a Book, Chapter, and Verse? The fact that you cannot find one that DOES say baptism is a part of the Gospel is proof for my point. Your argument is completely from silence.

As far as E. We goes -- why don't you rebuke him for his ridiculing statements against just about everyone on this board? Is it because he belongs to your Pharisaic "anti" cult?

-- Anonymous, November 24, 2001

"If I had a cure for cancer, told you about it, but didn't tell you how to receive it, it would still be a cure for cancer."

But it wouldn't be good news.

-- Anonymous, November 24, 2001

I'm sorry if you cant follow the reasoning. I've gone back and looked at it and it seems pretty clear to me. One of us has a tremendously thick skull (or both of us).

The inane way you try and limit the Gospel to ONLY the death, burial & resurrection is feeble at best. Look at the whole passage of I Cor 15 in context (you probably heard that word used on occassion in Bible College - it has a meaning). In it Paul is defending the resurrection. Nowhere does he state that this is the definition of the Gospel. But the resurrection is an essential part of the Gospel, for without it "we are of all men most to be pitied."

It is one of the central tenets of the Gospel message, but the Gospel is the WHOLE message. John & Jesus preached the Gospel of the Kingdom. Is this limited to ONLY the death, Burial & Resurrection? If so, how come John sent some of his followers over to question Jesus about what He was doing? John didn't seem to understand the Gospel the way you do.

Look at Rom 1:16-18: "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it (i.e., the Gospel) the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH." For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,"

Not only is the Gospel the power of God, but it brings about faith to faith, i.e., an ever-increasing faith. In it the wrath of God is revealed. Seems to be more there than JUST the death, burial & resurrection. Sounds to me like it's the whole message.

In 2 Cor 4:4 there is the "Gospel of the glory of Christ, which is the image of God." Sounds like there's theology lessons going on, not JUST the DB&R of Jesus.

Gal 3:8: The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." -- Abraham was taught the DB&R of Jesus??

Eph 6:19, what is the "mystery of the Gospel"?

Phil 1:5, how did the Philippians participate in the Gospel, if it is only the DB&R of Jesus?

I know you're going to think me foolish for using so many verses because you think the only definition of the Gospel is in I Cor. 15. But the fact of the matter is that the Gospel encompasses the WHOLE message of God, not ONLY the Death, burial & Resurrection of Jesus which provides the way for eternal life but ALSO how to benefit from that fact, by believing, repenting and being immersed into his death and living the message.

-- Anonymous, November 24, 2001

Barry,

You said: "As far as E. We goes -- why don't you rebuke him for his ridiculing statements against just about everyone on this board? Is it because he belongs to your Pharisaic "anti" cult?"

Once again, you offer NO proof whatsoever to your statement above that I belong to a Pharisaic "anti" cult? That is your opinion, and everyone is entitled to them.

The Bible says "Buy the truth and do not sell it" (Prov. 23:23). E. Lee is doing his job according to the Bible. 2 Tim 4:2 ays "Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching." Which is exactly what he is doing and there is nothing to rebuke him for. Yes, he has called you a "Liar" and a "False Teacher" because that is exactly what you are and you offer NO proof whatsoever to contradict what E. Lee is saying now do you? The only thing you do is stomp your feet and complain that someone is picking on you and then you turn around and attempt to throw out accusations without any justification at all.

Then you said: "The fact that you cannot find one that DOES say baptism is a part of the Gospel is proof for my point." How could the Ethiopian understand that in order to "OBEY the Gospel" that he had to be baptized (Acts 8:37)?

Remember, we must OBEY the Gospel, or else they will be lost (2 Thes. 1:8).

How does someone OBEY the Gospel? The Bible says once again: "For as many of as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ." (Gal. 3:27). If the Gospel "AS YOU SAY" is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, the Bible says that we OBEY this form of doctrine (Rom. 6:17) by being baptized into Jesus death, and if we have been united in the likeness of his death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of his resurrection. (Romans 6:3-11) So, once again your statement "Your argument is completely from silence." is completely wrong because the Bible does speak on this subject.

-- Anonymous, November 24, 2001

Kevin,

Barry is more limited in his focus. He must have the word "Gospel" used in the same sentence with baptism in order for baptism to be part of the Gospel. Of course, that leaves out a lot of important doctrines, like holiness, repentance, evangelism, et al ad nauseum. He wants a statement like: The Gospel is .... and includes baptism.

-- Anonymous, November 24, 2001

Scott and Kevin,

When you guys come up with some actual biblical proof I'll be glad to look at it.

-- Anonymous, November 24, 2001

Barry,

Proof has been stated (in this thread) and restated (in other threads) time and time again that baptism is a part of the Gospel, yet you continue to hold on to your FALSE view of "baptism is just a response to the Gospel" without providing any proof at all for your statement. Just because you believe something doesn't make it true, it must agree with the Bible. Once again, you make a statement with no Biblical argument whatsoever to prove your assertion.

-- Anonymous, November 24, 2001

Barry,

Thanks for being patient with those who disagree with you. I think if all of us would admit it, we'd confess that we have actually learned (and changed opinions) from those we disagree with. My question, as I follow the argument:

If it is true that baptism is not a part of the Gospel, just a reaction to it, then in the case of the Ethiopian eunuch, the eunuch's being baptized was not in itself, the Gospel, but rather a reaction/response to the Gospel? Would that be a fair understanding of your position?

-- Anonymous, November 24, 2001

I'm sorry Barry. I was certain that I posted several passages of Scripture showing there was more to the Gospel than just the DB&R of Jesus. Wait a second and let me scroll up to make sure it posted......

Oh yeah, it did. I guess you just choose to ignore these too for it doesn't fit with your thinking. Oh well, I guess the saying is true, "My minds made up, don't confuse me with the facts."

I have tried to how there is more to the Gospel than just the DB&R. Where can you show show me where the Gospel is limited to that? I realize ahead of time you will go to I Cor. 15:1-4, but that nowhere says that the DB&R is the whole Gospel. Because of context Paul focuses of the resurrection. Where is it stated that The Gospel is the DB&R of Jesus only? It is certainly part of the Gospel, the part which opens the way to the rest of the Gospel, but where is it limited to just the DB&R?

Is there other Scripture I'm missing that says otherwise? I'd like to know where it is.

-- Anonymous, November 24, 2001

Hi All,

I'm afraid we are getting into a hair-splitting context. I never said that baptism was not a necessary response to the Gospel, but it is a response and not the Gospel itself. The Good News (Gospel) is not baptism, but the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Most on this board would probably state that the conditions for salvation included belief, confession, repentance, baptism, ongoing obedience. If that is true, based on the arguments of Scott and Kevin, belief is the Gospel, confession is the Gospel, repentance is the Gospel, baptism is the Gospel, and obedience is the Gospel. That is patently false. Those are all actions a person takes in response to the Good News of the Gospel. They are not the Gospel itself, but what a person does when they want to receive the Gospel into their lives.

Every passage posted simply backs up my argument! Can't you see this?

Duane asked: If it is true that baptism is not a part of the Gospel, just a reaction to it, then in the case of the Ethiopian eunuch, the eunuch's being baptized was not in itself, the Gospel, but rather a reaction/response to the Gospel? Would that be a fair understanding of your position?

EXACTLY!!!

Until I got on this message board I had never heard anyone claim that baptism was actually a part of the Gospel -- even in anti circles! It is an obedience to the Gospel, yes, but the Gospel itself -- No Way.

-- Anonymous, November 24, 2001

Barry -- must a person be immersed into Christ in order to receive forgiveness of sins, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

-- Anonymous, November 24, 2001

Darrell,

I believe that is the Norm. That being said, the Holy Spirit was poured out in a supernatural way prior to baptism at Pentecost and also on Cornelius and his household. Whether that was a permanent indwelling or just a sign of the Spirit's presense is up to debate.

What do you believe?

-- Anonymous, November 24, 2001

Ok... so baptism is the "response" to the Gospel... and a necessary one...

So the act of baptism is not part of the Gospel, but the command to be baptized must be a part of the good news message, since we find that the response includes the act

-- Anonymous, November 24, 2001

Brethren:

Do notice how Brother Davis and others have decided to address their Brother in Christ.

For it does appear that he may be addressing E. Lee Saffold as follows:

“E. Wee”

Now Brethren, E. Lee Saffold has a name. And you are welcome to address him in any way you chose. You can call him anything you want even if you know that he does not particularly like it. But the name that he has is a good name and it is just as easy to spell as any other name.

And we do not believe there is anything wrong with calling people names. In fact, John the Baptist called people names and so did Jesus Christ. For John the Baptist called those who came to his baptism a “generation of vipers”. “Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?” (Luke 3:7). And Jesus Christ our Lord had the same appellation for the Scribes. Pharisees, and Hypocrites. “Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? ” (Matt. 23:28-33). And again in another place he said, “O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. (Mat. 12:34- 37).

And we are pleased to see that you gentlemen have finally learned that it is perfectly acceptable to call someone a name. So, when we do the same we hope that you will not be so hypocritical as to forget the lessons that you have learned and start whining about the terrible “unchrist-like attitude” which you think is displayed by us when we have called you a name. But do notice one significant thing. When Christ called people names he made sure that he was speaking the truth and he was not “joking” about it nor was he simply trying to insult someone that he despised. Rather he was telling them the truth about themselves so as to warn them to turn from evil. So, we will call you names as we see fit but we will not be joking when we do so and we will not be simply insulting you. Instead we will be telling you the truth about yourself whether you like it or not. And we will not listen any longer to your whining that name calling is wrong for we now both agree that it is perfectly alright to do such things, now don’t we?

Then Brother Davis said:

“If I had a cure for cancer, told you about it, but didn't tell you how to receive it, it would still be a cure for cancer. Your "Logic" is appalling.””

WE cannot imagine why Brother Davis says our “logic” is “appalling” for he gives no evidence for what he asserts concerning our logic, now does he? But think of how cruel and extremely stupid it would be for a person to have the “cure” for cancer and announce it to everyone and then refuse to tell them how to obtain the “cure”! For following the prescription for a cure is as much a part of the cure as is the medicine that was developed to cure the disease, now isn’t it? And anyone who thinks otherwise is just plain stupid, aren’t they?

Now the idea of announcing that a cure has been found for cancer but denying the people access to it by refusing to give them the prescription is the cruel thing that Brother Davis and his fellow false teacher Billy Graham are doing, isn’t it? For knowing the cure, announcing it, and then refusing to tell everyone the prescription which will give them access to the medicine that brings the cure is the extremely stupid, if not brutally cruel nature of Brother Davis’ and Mr. Billy Graham’s “logic”. They will just go out and tell everyone that Jesus Christ died for our sins, he was buried and he raised again the third day and that because of this there is a cure for sin. But he refuses, even though he knows the way to obtain this cure to tell anyone how to get it. Billy Graham would die before he pointed out to any man that in baptism men undergo the operation of God that removes their sins from their souls. (Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21; Col. 2:11-13) and by doing this they make the wonderful cure procured by the death, burial and resurrection of Christ useless and of no practical effect because they refuse to tell anyone how to “APPROPRIATE” this cure. And by doing this they ignore the very command of Christ who commanded that the appropriation of the cure (baptism) be preached as a part of the preaching of the gospel. (Mark 16:15-16; Matt. 28:19,20). The medicine, if they have their way will simply “sit on the self” so to speak and thousands will die in their sins because Brother Davis and Billy Graham will not tell them how to appropriate the CURE that they so joyfully announce. Think of how stupid these men are, Brethren, when they announce a cure and they know how to obtain it but they simply refuse to tell anyone about how to appropriate it because they do not want them to think that the “prescription” is a “part” of the cure! Now that is some real stupid “logic” that Brother Davis has displayed for us, isn’t it?

But the logic that he claims is “appalling” is the logic that says there is a cure for sin and here is the prescription offered by the great Physician that procured this cure for us and failing to follow this prescription will prevent your appropriating the cure. So, see to it that you do all that the doctor said and you will be cured! (Luke 6:46; Heb. 5:8,9). That is appalling to Brother Davis and Billy Graham because, you see, they have been sent by their father Satan to prevent you from obtaining the cure. Instead they just want you to think that you we automatically cured the moment that the great Physician “found the cure”. And that there is nothing for you to do except believe that a cure exist. You can ignore the physician’s prescription if you want to. Because you are cure simply by believing in the physician. You do not have to follow any prescription that the great physician gives you. Just believe in the great physician and you will immediately be cured. And they are so devious and evil that they want to do noting more than taunt you with hope that you cannot reach because they will not tell you how to obtain the cure because they do not really want you to have it.

Now that, brethren is appalling to GOD. For he not only sent men to preach the gospel of Christ but he made the prescription, i.e. the plan of salvation, a part of the cure. For this reason we are told how God cures us of sin. He tell us to repent and be baptized every one you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS”. (Acts 2:38). If you do not do this you will not be cured. (2 Thess. 1:8,9) For being baptized for the remission of sins by one that believes in Christ and has repented of his sins is described as “the gospel in action”. For we are told that we are “buried with him by baptism into death that LIKE as Christ was raised up from the dead even so we also should walk in newness of life. For IF WE HAVE BE PLANTED IN THE LIKENESS OF HIS DEATH we shall also be in the LIKENESS OF HIS RESURRECTION” (Romans 6:3-6). Now, if the death, burial and resurrection of Christ is the gospel in fact then being buried with Christ in baptism and raised with him in the same act is the gospel in action. Thus we can see that this prescription is part of the cure for if it is not followed one will not reach the cure for sin. (Col. 2:11-13; Acts 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21; Mark 16:16). Now, we will not repeat the numerous passages, which Brother Davis continues to completely ignore that we gave in our last post. But you can go back and read them for yourself. Baptism was a vital part of the preaching of the gospel. (Acts 2:30-38; 8:12-40). And it was, in fact, by our Lord purposefully made a part of the gospel to be preached which he commanded the apostles as he sent them out to preach the gospel to the entire world under His authority which is all heaven and earth. In the great commission given in Mark 16:15,16; and Matt. 28:19,20 placed baptism with the gospel and made it inseparable from it because it is a part of the prescription, which brings about the cure for sin. Read Col. 2:11-13 and notice that it is in baptism that the “operation of God takes place and man’s sins are REMOVED by Christ. If that is the cure and baptism is the place where the cure takes place then being in that place is an inseparable part of the cure. (Col. 2:11-13).

Just one more example we should notice. When Naaman the leper was told to dip seven times in the Jordan he knew that it was God that was going to provide the cure. But he also knew that following the prescription given by the man of God was a part of the cure for without his submitting to those requirements he would have never been cured. For it was in that obedience that God healed his leprosy. And it is in your obedience to the gospel, which can only be done in baptism, that one receives the cure. And now “why tarriest thou arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins calling on the name of the Lord”. (Acts 22:16). So, you have the prescription, we recommend that you follow it even though Brother Davis thinks this is “appalling logic”. He prefers instead that you learn about this wonderful cure that God has provided and ignore the prescription simply because he just cannot admit that the prescription is a “part of the cure”. SO, he would have you die in your sins before he would admit that one who refuses to tell you about the prescription are deliberately denying you a part of what is essential to your obtaining the cure! Now, we find that “Appalling”, don’t you?

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, November 24, 2001

Barry,

The Norm? That's a weasel word. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit (BHS) had nothing to do with forgiveness of sin as can be seen by looking at the text. If it did, why did Peter command them to be baptized (Acts 2:48) after the BHS? Seems if they had already received the indwelling of the Spirit there would be no reason to baptize, because they already had been.

The way you state things like this, when we are told what we are to do and believe undermines the direct teachings of Scripture. It's like the question "Hath God said?" You try to put a question mark on everything except the faith of those who do not teach the whole counsel of God.

I can tell you though in evangelicalism, it is not the norm. Not even close.

Let me ask you an honest question please. To piggyback on Duane's comment, Would you say that the command to be baptised is part of the Gospel? Just like the command to repent and believe.

-- Anonymous, November 24, 2001

Lee, I don't think it was Barry who started calling you "E. We" ... I think it was Duane, in another thread. But I could be wrong. Still, I think it's a clever pun, and I'm sure it was (originally anyway) meant in fun.

-- Anonymous, November 25, 2001

I'll bite ... it was me.

Barry -- I believe that a person comes to a knowledge of their need to be saved from their sin through the Word ... preaching, sharing, etc. I believe that a person, once they have accepted their lost state before God, then must make a decision to repent of their sins, changing their life in a direction towards God, rather than away from Him. They then are immersed into Christ, so that their sins can be removed and then they receive the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit.

This indwelling is DIFFERENT than the Baptisim of the Holy Spirit received by the Apostles in the upper room and by the household of Cornelius. And it is different than the BHS received by those who had the Apostles lay their hands on them, for that purpose.

So I believe that a person must be immersed into Christ, along with the rest, to join with Christ.

-- Anonymous, November 25, 2001

Okay, let's put it this way. While baptism is not a part of the Gospel, but is a response to it, the person teaching the Gospel would be in error if they did not teach how to respond to it. But baptism is still not the Gospel.

Scott, I never thought of "norm" as a weasal word -- I always thought it was the norm when we are talking about norms!

I'm also not sure we can seperate the baptism of the Holy Spirit from water baptism. It is possible (possible, mind you!) that sometimes the reception of the Holy Spirit prededes water baptism, other times is at the moment of baptism, or even follows after baptism. Again, I am taking the norm as Acts 2:38, but I refuse to limit God to something He doesn't limit himself to.

In classic Restorationism, similar to Pentecostalism, we tend to look at the baptism of the Holy Spirit as a seperate act of the Spirit. I don't know that that can be justified scripturally.

And E. Wee, it's just a joke man! Get a grip! We're just funnin ya...

-- Anonymous, November 25, 2001

Barry... what about the second part of my question: "but the command to be baptized must be a part of the good news message, since we find that the response includes the act"

Was the command to be baptized part of the message or not?

-- Anonymous, November 25, 2001

Duane,

No, baptism is not a part of the Gospel message. It is included as a response to the Gospel, but is not the Gospel itself. Neither is repentantance, confession obedience, etc....

-- Anonymous, November 25, 2001

Scott, Kevin, et. al.,

I've been busy answering your questions, how about you answer some of mine. In light of your belief that baptism is the Gospel, or at least a part of the Gospel, please answer the following questions:

Is belief the Gospel? Is repentance the Gospel? Is confession the Gospel? Is continued obedience the Gospel?

If affirmative, please state B,C,V, for your belief. If negative, how could that be the case if baptism is the Gospel or a part of the Gospel?

-- Anonymous, November 25, 2001

Stay with me on this one, then, Barry. If the instruction to be immersed was not a part of the message, what ever got into the Ethiopian eunuch's head to come up with the idea?

-- Anonymous, November 25, 2001

Duane,

I'm sure that Phillip taught the Eunuch that baptism was a response to the Gospel. I've never doubted nor disagreed with that. But still, baptism is a response, it is not the Gospel.

-- Anonymous, November 25, 2001

Let me wade in here with a question.

What differerence does it make if immersion, repentance, confession, etc. is a PART of the Gospel, or a RESPONSE to that Gospel?

That is, provided it is understood that repentance, confession and immersion are required in order for a person to accept that Gospel, join with Christ, having their sins removed and receiveing the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

-- Anonymous, November 26, 2001

Duane asked: "What differerence does it make if immersion, repentance, confession, etc. is a PART of the Gospel, or a RESPONSE to that Gospel?"

The problem with asking that question of Barry is that he does not believe that you MUST be baptized in order to have your sins forgiven. I am not so sure he even believes that you MUST Confess or repent either, as per this thread.

-- Anonymous, November 26, 2001

D. Lee said: The problem with asking that question of Barry is that he does not believe that you MUST be baptized in order to have your sins forgiven. I am not so sure he even believes that you MUST Confess or repent either, as per this thread.

I have never stated or implied anything of the kind. In the words of your friend, E. Lee, you are a liar.

-- Anonymous, November 26, 2001

It was Darrell who asked the question, and I believe Barry stated that immersion WAS a part of the process one goes through to receive forgiveness of sins, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. At least, as he said, that is "the norm."

The question still stands, for Barry, or anyone else.

-- Anonymous, November 26, 2001

Darrell,

If you'll remember, this thread started out about Billy Graham and his stand for the Deity of Christ. I said that Billy preached the Gospel and was challenged by the errant statement that Billy doesn't preach the Gospel because he doesn't include baptism.

I really don't want to split hairs on this, but am trying to stick by "where the Bible speaks, we speak", "calling Bible things by Bible names", etc.... The Bible never calls baptism the Gospel. Not once. I'm just wanting to stick with the Word here, while my more legalistic friends, as they are wont to do, are adding to God's Word.

-- Anonymous, November 26, 2001

Thank you, Barry.

you said, "I'm sure that Phillip taught the Eunuch that baptism was a response to the Gospel. I've never doubted nor disagreed with that. But still, baptism is a response, it is not the Gospel."

Are you saying that Phillip taught the Eunuch that baptism was the necessary response to his Gospel message, or just a response among others?

-- Anonymous, November 26, 2001

Barry,

You said: “I have never stated or implied anything of the kind. In the words of your friend, E. Lee, you are a liar.”

You have implied in this very thread that you do not believe that repentance and baptism are essential.

As proof, I gave this very thread as evidence that you believe that Billy Graham is a Godly man.

You said: “I do find it a credible explanation and will continue to defend Billy Graham and his ministry which God continues to bless.” - - Barry (pastorshelper@saintmail.net), November 20, 2001.

It was NO explanation at all. You will continue to defend a man that does NOT teach that one MUST repent to be saved.

You defend a man who does NOT believe or teach that one MUST be baptized to be saved.

You do believe this man to be a brother in Christ do you not??

God does not and will not bless a man or ministry that is in direct opposition to His will. God does condemn them:

Gal 1:6-9 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

2 Cor 11:3-4 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted-- you may well put up with it!

Billy Graham has come preaching a different gospel, and you have put up with it.

As for calling me a liar…how is it that you do something that you believe is wrong to do?? How is it that you have just asked for others to stop calling you a liar and then you call me a liar? Talk about being a hypocrite??!!

-- Anonymous, November 27, 2001

Darrell, I stand corrected it was you who asked the question and not Duane.

As for Barry stating that immersion WAS a part of the process one goes through to receive forgiveness of sins, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, or at least that this is the norm…

It is hard to believe he is convinced of that when he fully supports Billy Graham who does not in any way, shape, or form teach anything close to “The Gospel”.

-- Anonymous, November 27, 2001

Duane,

No, I doubt very much that baptism was "the" response. It is "a" response. I wasn't there, but I imagine Phillip spent most of his time talking about Jesus. We would do well to follow his example.

I once had a church I was candidating at ask me how often I preached/taught on baptism. I answered, "I'll spend as much time on it as the do in the NT." As you can see from this thread and many others on this board -- the Restoration Movement talks more about baptism than it does about Christ!

D. Lee,

You can believe whatever you want to about me -- I don't really care.

-- Anonymous, November 27, 2001

Brethren:

Notice that Brother Davis has correctly quoted Sister D. Lee Muse as having said:

“D. Lee said: The problem with asking that question of Barry is that he does not believe that you MUST be baptized in order to have your sins forgiven. I am not so sure he even believes that you MUST Confess or repent either, as per this thread.”

TO which he replied:

“I have never stated or implied anything of the kind. In the words of your friend, E. Lee, you are a liar.”

Now, he calls Sister Muse a liar and he does not want to take responsibility for having done so and for that reason he says that he is saying those things in the words of “E. Lee”. Now, those words are not E. Lee’s words. Those are Brother Davis’ words. E. Lee Does not "own" the word “liar”. It is his words only when HE USES THEM. And it is Brother Davis’ words when HE USES THEM. And in this case Brother Davis uses the words “Liar” in reference to Sister Muse and wants us to take the blame for it. How stupid can a person be?

But, he said that she was a liar because he had never “said any such thing” as she accused him of teaching concerning baptism “in order to have your sins forgiven”. Now when he said this he proves himself yet again to be a deliberate liar. Now we want you to read again which we have now quoted several times the following words from Brother Davis concerning what he believes about baptism for the remission of sins as follows:

“1) I believe that a person can be saved without being specifically baptized for the remission of sins.”

“-- Barry Davis (barrydavis@coonrapidschristian.org), August 17, 2001.”

Now those were his exact words. Brother Davis, according to his own words, believes that a “person can be saved WITHOUT specifically being baptized for the remission of sins”

Yet he lies and tells Sister Muse that he “Never implied or stated anything of the kind”. But we have quoted from him where he did on August, 17th 2001 not only implied but also actually stated just such a thing as he denies having ever said. Now that is called LYING, pure and simple Brethren.

So, it is not sister Muse who is lying in this forum, Brethren. It is Brother Davis and we have proven it often enough for anyone to see it. Brother Davis does not believe that one must be specifically baptized for the remission of sins in order to be saved. He has said so with his own words, which he has not forgotten having said. He simply denies having said it. And we have quoted him enough times that everyone in this forum knows that he has said it.

So, you read his words which we have quoted and which he typed into this forum with his own hands and decide for yourself whether sister Muse is a “Liar” as Brother Davis accuses her of being with his own words and not E. Lee Saffold’s words.

Anyone with half of a brain can see that Sister Muse has told the truth and he or she can also see who the real LIAR is.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, November 27, 2001

This is too hard to accept. Phillip preached to him "Jesus"... then the Eunuch asked to be immersed. You're saying that it is possible that when Phillip explained the Gospel message, he gave the eunuch several ways he could respond, kinda like salvation a la carte. And if you believe that immersion was one recommendation among many, what do you think the other choices might have been?

-- Anonymous, November 27, 2001

Duane,

No, no, no...that isn't what I meant at all. I don't believe he was given choices as to what he must do. I have no doubt that Philip explained baptism to him. What I meant is that I'm sure that the main focus was not baptism, but Jesus.

Now, would you answer the question I've posed above? Is confession the Gospel? Is repentance the Gospel?, etc... It's funny how Scott and Kevin dropped out at that point.

-- Anonymous, November 27, 2001

Sorry Barry,

didn't realize I had dropped out. I simply hadn't looked at this thread for awhile.

As I have stated all along, all of the above is encompassed in the Gospel message. The message is not JUST the DB&R of Jesus but also how that applies to me and what must I do to apply what He did to me. The Gospel is the WHOLE message. You cannot disect it the way you are trying to.

-- Anonymous, November 27, 2001

Joe heard the Gospel and responded. His response was not part of the message. But the COMMAND to respond was a part of the message. Joe's act of belief was not part of the message. But the COMMAND to believe WAS a part of the message. Joe's repentance was not a part of the message. The COMMAND to repent WAS part of the message. Joe's BAPTISM was not a part of the message, it was part of the response. But the COMMAND to be baptized was PART OF THE MESSAGE. Now don't make me yell again.

-- Anonymous, November 28, 2001

Duane,

Book, Chapter, and Verse please?

-- Anonymous, November 29, 2001

Logic 101 textbook

-- Anonymous, November 29, 2001

Barry I am still waiting on your answer from another thread, so I will have to chase you into this one:

Barry, you wrote: I have baptized over 20 people into Christ so far this year.

My question: If you baptized them "into" Christ, what were they before you baptized them?

-- Anonymous, November 29, 2001

Brethren:

Brother Duane has said:

“Joe heard the Gospel and responded. His response was not part of the message. But the COMMAND to respond was a part of the message. Joe's act of belief was not part of the message. But the COMMAND to believe WAS a part of the message. Joe's repentance was not a part of the message. The COMMAND to repent WAS part of the message. Joe's BAPTISM was not a part of the message, it was part of the response. But the COMMAND to be baptized was PART OF THE MESSAGE. Now don't make me yell again.”

TO which Brother Davis responded with the following ignorance:

“Book, Chapter, and Verse please?”

The books, chapters and verses, numerous one’s we might add, have been given to Brother Davis so many times. And he has ignored them so many times that it is nothing short of willful ignorance on his part to pretend that he has not been provided with Book, chapter and verse that proves to any thinking person that baptism is, as brother Duane stated, “a part of the message”.

But we will give some of them again.

“Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. And as they went on [their] way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, [here is] water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.” ” (Acts 8:35-40).

Now all we are told that the INSPIRED preacher Phillip preached was “Jesus”. We know from this that he obviously preached the gospel of Christ. We are not told that he preached anything else but the gospel of Christ. And as a result of hearing Phillip preach NOTHING BUT THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST when they came upon a CERTAIN WATER the eunuch said “see here is water what doeth hinder me to be baptized?” (Acts 8:36). Now, if baptism was not a part of the preaching of the gospel of Christ how would the eunuch have learned about baptism? For all the scripture says that Phillip preached was “Jesus”. And it is clear that the gospel that Phillip preached was very different from that preached by false teachers like Brother Davis and Billy Graham. For if Brother Davis or Billy Graham had preached to the eunuch, then he would have never even contemplated anything related to water. If Billy Graham was riding in that chariot teaching his false gospel, or if Brother Davis were riding along in this chariot preaching what he thinks is the gospel and nothing their false gospel the results would have been far different. For if this had been the case they would have driven past the water giving it no notice whatsoever except to either take a drink from it or fill their canteens. But to be baptized would not have been a response to their gospel because their gospel does not even mention baptism and therefore baptism cannot be a response to it, now can it?

But Phillip did not preach the gospel preached by Billy Graham and Brother Davis. He preached the true gospel of Christ by inspiration of the Holy Spirit. And baptism was such an important and essential part of that preaching that when this eunuch, after hearing an inspired preacher preach Jesus and upon seeing a body of water, immediately said, “see here is water what doeth hinder me to be baptized.” And we thank God that it was an inspired man like Phillip who preached to the eunuch instead of a false teacher and a liar like Billy Graham or Brother Davis who taught the eunuch. And we thank God that the record of this inspired preacher is given to us. It is written in such a way as to make it abundantly clear to men with even average intelligence. That when Christ is preached as he was preached by inspired men of the New Testament the first thing that men who believe that gospel will think of doing when they find water is to be baptized. Thus, baptism is without question a part of the gospel. But, Phillip, under the inspiration and guidance of the Holy Spirit preached the gospel of Christ and because baptism was a part of or included in this inspired preaching of the gospel the eunuch was able to immediately take action when he came upon a certain water. For you can rest assured that if baptism was not a part of this preaching the last thing the eunuch would have said was “see here is water what doeth hinder me to be baptized”. For if baptism was not a part of this inspired preaching the eunuch would have never even considered that baptism had any connection with Christ whatsoever. And if Brother Davis and Billy Graham had preached the false gospel that they teach the eunuch would have been deliberately PREVENTED from ever learning that baptism had anything to do with the gospel of Christ. For Billy Graham could preach his false gospel forever and none would ever draw the conclusion that the eunuch drew when Phillip preached it. For Billy Graham says nothing that would cause anyone who hears him to conclude that baptism has anything to do with Christ. So, the question to our readers is simply this; do you want to follow the gospel preached by inspired men by the guidance of the Holy Spirit? Or, do you want to follow the perverted gospel as taught by false teachers like Brother Davis and Billy Graham? If you want to follow the gospel preached by inspired men then baptism is a proper response to it because baptism is an integral part of it. If you do not care then you may as well follow the perversions of men like Brother Davis and Billy Graham. For the true gospel will have no bearing upon you or any significant and beneficial meaning to you and no practical effect whatsoever upon you until you have been baptized for the remission of sins in obedience to the commands of Christ revealed in the gospel. (Acts 2:38; Acts 8:12-24;35-40;19:1- 6;Romans 6:3-6; 1Peter 3:21; Acts 22:16; Gal. 3;26,27; John 3:3-5; Titus 3:3-5; Heb. 10:22; Eph. 5:25,26;

Now, it does not take a genius to see that the eunuch learned of the importance of baptism from Phillip preaching the gospel and that therefore baptism is a response of the gospel only because it is a part of the gospel. If it were not a part of the gospel then it could not be a response to the gospel. When one is baptized what part of the “gospel” is he participating in the death of Christ or merely “responding” to it? He is participating in the death of Christ instead of merely “responding” to it (Romans 6:3-6) Is he Participating in the burial of Christ? Yes. (Romans 6:3-6) Is he Participating in the resurrection of Christ. Yes. (Romans 6:3-6; Col. 2:11-13; 1Peter 3:21) Is he responding to the command of Christ given when he sent the apostles out to preach the gospel of salvation? Yes. (Mark 16:16; Matt. 28:19,20). But it is that response that brings him into actual participation in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ so that from that day forward he is in fact UNITED WITH CHRIST. He is raised with Christ and walking with Christ (1 John 1:7-9).

When Christ said for them to preach the good news he commanded them that men are to “believe and be baptized”. And notice how Christ says it. He says, “go ye therefore and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believreth (the gospel) and is baptized (obeys the gospel) shall be saved. Now anyone with half a brain can see that if the gospel does not contain any information concerning baptism that no one could believe (the gospel) and be baptized (obey the gospel) according to the command of Christ in that gospel. Now Jesus was plainly saying for them to preach only one thing, the gospel. And he says he that believeth (the gospel) and is baptized (obeys the gospel) shall be saved. (Mark 16:16).

Now, if all the apostles preached was the gospel, how would their audience learn to be baptized if the Lord’s command to be baptized were not a part of the preaching of that gospel? And thus how could baptism be a response to something that has nothing to do with baptism and says nothing about it? The gospel of men like Billy Graham has nothing to do with baptism. But the gospel of Christ has so much to do with it that upon hearing it properly preached and believe it will be baptized not as a mere response to it but to actually participate in it. For anyone that believes the gospel will do as Christ commanded in the gospel unless they would believe in vain. (1 Cor. 15:1-4).

If we can expect anyone to be baptized as a “response” to the gospel, then it follows that we cannot but understand from that expectation that baptism must first be a command of the gospel. It must be a command so associated with the gospel and therefore included as a part of the preaching of it that when one is baptized he can know that he has responded properly to it. For if the command to be baptized is not a part of the gospel none could be expected to be baptized when they hear the gospel nor could baptism in any way be considered a proper response to the gospel, since the gospel said nothing about it. And when our Brother Davis admits that baptism is a “response” to the gospel he unwittingly concedes that it is a part of the gospel. For if baptism forms no part of the gospel it cannot be a response to it. For belief is a response to the gospel because the gospel contains facts about Christ that God expects men to believe. And baptism is a response to the gospel because the gospel also contains commands from Christ that He expects men to obey. (1 Peter 4:16-18; 2 Thess. 1:8,9; Heb. 5:8,9; Mark 16:16; Matt. 28:19,20). It is that simple and only an absolute idiot could miss it.

Baptism, as from the example of Phillip and the eunuch, is a part of preaching the gospel of Christ. The eunuch heard the gospel preached by Phillip and he believed and was baptized. And the reason this was the case was simply that baptism was without question a part of the gospel that Phillip, by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, preached.

And Brother Davis has been given these scriptures many times and he does nothing but deliberately ignore them and then act as if no one has even bother to give him “book, chapter and verse. We have given him book, chapter and verse numerous times and he has not given us any response to them even once! He would rather insult us than answer us.

Brethren, one thing is for certain. No one hearing Billy Graham preach what Brother Davis claims is the gospel of Christ could drive into any body of water and it would NEVER cross their minds to be baptized. So, baptism surely does not form a part of the false gospel preached by men like Billy Graham. But the gospel of Christ, when preached by men like the inspired Phillip leads to an immediate and urgent demand of those who believe it, when coming near a body of water, to be baptized as soon as it is heard. And the difference is marked and clear, isn’t it? The preaching of the gospel of Christ has as much to say about the commands of Christ to be baptized as it does about the facts about Christ that men must believe. And the gospel preached by Brother Davis and his fellow false teacher Billy Graham does not even mention baptism. And if anyone even brings up the subject, then they are all too eager to be sure that no one draws the conclusion that baptism has anything to do with salvation or the remission of sins.

And do notice another fact. It is not possible to preach Christ as Phillip preached him without talking about baptism, now is it? For it was from hearing Phillip preach Christ that the eunuch learned the importance of baptism. And it was of such great importance that he had the sense of urgency to obey as soon as he say a “certain water”. But, men go away from hearing Billy Graham and Brother Davis preach their gospel would not hear anything about water, now would they?

So, Do not believe this nonsense that Brother Davis has not been given book, chapter and verse to show that baptism is to be preached when the gospel is preached not merely in close proximity to the gospel but as a very part of it. Now, there is no passage of scripture that teaches the false notion that the gospel is only the facts that Christ died, was buried and raised again. For if that is all there is to the story it would not be a gospel (or good news). It would be nothing more than an amazing story of how God became a man, lived on earth, dies, was buried and rose again. But it would not be good news to mankind. It is not until we realize that because Christ died, was buried and rose again that God has granted us the forgiveness of our sins. And that this forgiveness is not granted until too die with him, are buried, and a raised again with him so that we can “partake of his divine nature” and become children of God with the hope of eternal life. Romans 6:3-6;16-18;Col. 2:11-13). And this part of the gospel cannot be obeyed except by being baptized for the remission of sins in obedience to the command of Christ. For it is in baptism that we, along with Christ, are buried and raised with him to walk a new life. And this is what makes the fact that Christ died, was buried and raised again good news. For if we could not participate with him in his death, burial and resurrection and obtain the benefits of eternal life and adoption as God’s own children then while the gospel might be interesting news, and even amazing news, it would not in any way be good news for us. For it would have no bearing upon us except to excite our human curiosity. But, in baptism we participate in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (Romans 6:3-6; Col 2:11-13) and in it we become partakers of the divine nature as sons of God. “According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.” (2 Peter 1:3,4)

So, Brother Davis has no way that he can deny the plain teaching of the word of God that baptism is not only a part of the preaching of the gospel of Christ but it is the ONLY way that any living human being can OBEY THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST. And it is the very thing that gives the gospel any meaning whatsoever to us so that we can exclaim to the world that it is GOOD NEWS. For it is there, when we obey this gospel by being baptized for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38 Romans 6:3-6;16-18) that we obey that “form of doctrine that was delivered” (Romans 6:16-18) and are then, and not one moment before then, made FREE FROM SIN. And this freedom comes as much from obeying the commands of Christ issued in the gospel as it does from believing the facts about Christ delivered in the gospel. (Heb. 5:8,9; 1 Peter 4:16-18; 2 Thess. 1:8,9). And any intelligent reader of the New Testament can see it.

Your Brother n Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, November 29, 2001

Duane,

They were "out" of Christ. Wouldn't you agree?

-- Anonymous, November 29, 2001

E. Wee,

You have failed, as usual, to find one verse that states that baptism is a part of the Gospel. It is amazing to me that on this forum, made up of people who claim to "speak where the Bible speaks", that so many would take an unbiblical position on what the Gospel consists of.

-- Anonymous, November 29, 2001

Is belief part of the Gospel?

-- Anonymous, November 29, 2001

Brethren:

Notice that since Brother Davis cannot answer our arguments he continues to resort to belittling us by abusing our name in the deliberate misspelling of it as follows:

“E. Wee,”

But, you must be patient and understand that this is all the poor man can do. We pity him indeed for his complete inability to even attempt to respond to our arguments. He cannot and will not respond to our arguments, so we will just have to be patient enough to allow him to escape any responsibility to do so by giving him some room to vent his frustrations by belittling us. He really has nothing better left in him, does he?

And remember the words of our Lord:

“Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. (Matt. 5:11)

“Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.” ( John 15:20)

We are indeed blessed for both those who started this foolishness and the foolish one’s who continue it are indeed reviling us and we endure it for the sake of Christ our Lord. And they are reviling us so often with increasing intensity because they are frustrated that they cannot actually answer our arguments from the scriptures. And any way that these men can use to get us to stop resisting their lies they will use. It will not get better; it will only get worse. But, we will be here for them to belittle. For we will continue to resist their lies and their deceptions which they teach contrary to the doctrine of Christ and the faith once delivered to the saints. And we were even reviled by those who pretend that they care about the truth. What a shame that is, isn’t it Brethren?

But we care not who wishes to insult and belittle our name. When they teach the lies that Brother Davis teaches or any other lie that is contrary to the gospel of Christ we will resist them. And we will show everyone that these men are against Christ who is our Lord. And we will constantly point out how they cannot and therefore will not debate us. And we will continue to show how that they persistently ignore the truth that is presented to them because they cannot answer the arguments. And we ask our readers to consider their behavior. Men do not gather “figs of thistles” now do they? For by their “fruits ye shall know them”, now won’t you brethren?

Then he says again ignorantly:

“You have failed, as usual, to find one verse that states that baptism is a part of the Gospel.”

Actually, we have succeeded so well that Brother Davis must, “as usual”, ignore all that we have said and resort to ridicule, now isn’t that the truth, Brethren! Ha!

Now what proof does he have that we have failed? He has not taken up a single one of our argument to show how it fails, now has he? The reason he has not done this is because he cannot show that we have failed, now can he? He just wants our readers to believe it because he said it. So, he has tried two strategies. First he does not want you to seriously consider what we have to say so he gives us a ridiculous name other than our own in order to get you to believe that we are not deserving of a fair hearing. For he knows if you grant us a fair hearing his false doctrines will become ever too apparent. And know that this would not be sufficient to gain him any success he then proceeds to convince our readers that we have simply not even said anything. It is his hope to persuade you to ignore, as he must do, all that we have said. And the reason for this is that he must ignore it for he is completely incompetent to answer it, isn’t he?

We have given him the following passage of scripture, and he has completely ignored it, that indicates that baptism was a part of the gospel preached by Phillip as follows:

““Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. And as they went on [their] way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, [here is] water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.” ” (Acts 8:35-40).

Now, this passage of scripture shows clearly that baptism was a part of the message that Phillip preached. And the message that Phillip preached was the gospel of Christ. Therefore baptism was a part of the gospel preached by Phillip. (Acts 8:12-24). If not why not? But this is now the fifth time that Brother Davis has ignored this passage and the question that we have asked concerning it. And when we point it out to him all he can say is that we have not found a passage of scripture that “says” baptism is a part of the gospel. But we have shown him several that in fact teach that baptism is in fact a part of the gospel. Now, he claims that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ define the gospel. But he cannot show one single passage of scripture has he given that supports his assertion. He most certainly cannot find a passage that SAYS such a thing, now can he? He has not even attempted to give a scripture to support any of his assertions. It is almost as if he believe that one does not need any passage of scripture to sustain what he is teaching, isn’t it? In fact, if he were really pressed we would find that he is not satisfied with the word of God and what it says and he wants something more than it and beyond it. And he wants to delete those passages which command us to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins. He asserted once but neve mad any attempt to prove that Mark 16:15,16 was “spurious” meaning that it was not inspired of God. It makes one wonder just how much of the Bible Brother Davis really believes is inspired and belongs as a part of the text, doesn’t it? He seems to have an aversion to the use of scripture. Could be that he just does not believe it in the fist place couldn’t it?

But we have given him several passages that teach that baptism is a part of the gospel and we have asked him to take up our arguments based upon those passages and show us why they do not teach what we have asserted and proven that they teach. Instead all he does is ignore our arguments and the numerous passages, which we have shown, which prove that baptism is a part of the gospel. And after ignoring our arguments he does nothing more than pretend, in his response, that we have not even made any!

But, our readers can see that we have proven our case so conclusively that Brother Davis just cannot reply. And thus all he can do is stick his head in the sand and pretend that no arguments have been made! Ha! You will not see him make any attempt to respond to the case we have made. He fears that doesn’t he? He fears it because he cannot answer a single one of the passages, which we have, quoted all of which teach that baptism is in fact an important part of the preaching of the gospel of Christ. It is so much so that anyone preaching the gospel that does not teach and command people to be baptized has failed to preach the gospel of Christ as the Holy Spirit through the example of inspired preachers has taught us to preach it. (Matt. 28:19,20; Mark 16:15,16).

Then he says:

“It is amazing to me that on this forum, made up of people who claim to "speak where the Bible speaks", that so many would take an unbiblical position on what the Gospel consists of.”

Well, that is a fine assertion, Brother Davis, but where is the proof of it? We have made numerous arguments from the scriptures that establish without doubt to any intelligent readers of the New Testament that baptism is a part of the preaching of the gospel by inspired preachers. Now, if you want to controvert what the word of God says about those matters then get started. But, simply pretending that we have not made any arguments from the word of God at all is stupid. For we have given plenty of arguments from God’s word which prove conclusively that baptism is a part of the gospel of Christ. And you have made no arguments to support your lie that the gospel consists of nothing more than the facts concerning the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. NONE. In fact, you have not reference any passage of scripture that even remotely suggest that nonsense. But you hypocritically, and ignorantly, claim that those of us who claim to speak where the Bible speaks are taking an unbiblical position. The truth is that you wish we would take an unbiblical position. For those are the positions that you favor most. But we have spoken concerning this subject as the scriptures speak concerning it. And the scriptures do teach beyond doubt that baptism is a part of the gospel of Christ. And it teaches that other things beside baptism are a part of the gospel of Christ and it teaches in no place you false doctrine that the gospel of Christ consist solely of the facts concerning the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.

Now, you may not agree that we have established our case from the many passages of scripture that we have quoted in our last post. And we stand ready for you to make some attempt to correct us if you like. But to say that we have not at the very least made our arguments on the basis of what the word of God says is just wishful thinking on your part. If you would like to correct our understanding of the SEVERAL passages that we have quoted which together teach that baptism is a part of the gospel then give it you best shot however feeble it might be. But, for now all you can do is pretend that we have not made those arguments from those scriptures.

Watch this false teacher Brethren. WE can assure you that his best response will be to ignore everything we have said yet again and return only to belittle our name and insult us for that is all he has left, isn’t it. The poor pathetic creature has only one respite from our arguments after ignoring them and that is to insult and revile us.

But our prayer is that all we come to love the truth enough to investigate and search for it. This “ostrich mentality” of sticking your head in the sand and ignoring all that is going on around you that you do not want to see and accept as true will not produce the results that the faithful are seeking. For Christ said, “If ye continue in my word then are ye my disciples indeed. And ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free” (John 8:31,32). If you do not continue in his word but have completely left it and ignored it as Brother Davis has done you will not be truly a disciple of Christ and you will never know the truth and you will never be free form sin.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, November 29, 2001

If I go out and say "Jesus was the only Son of God, sinless, and He died on a cross for our sins, was resurrected, and now sits on the right hand of God; heaven awaits those who give me $50" am I preaching the Gospel?

-- Anonymous, November 30, 2001

As per Lisa Johnson's suggestion that we try to keep the threads to the subject at hand, I have copied and pasted Barry's post from another thread to this one...

D. Lee,

Yes, Billy is my Christian brother and I praise God for his ministry! No, I don't agree with every position Billy takes. I simply stated that Billy preaches the Gospel.

-- Barry (pastorshelper@saintmail.net), November 30, 2001.

Billy does not preach the gospel, has not obeyed the gospel (that is if he follows his own teachings)...therefore is not a Christian at all. One MUST have obeyed the gospel in order to have their sins forgiven and that happens at baptism (Acts 2:38, 22:16, I Pet 3:21).

This defense of yours for a false teacher is proof that you beleive one can be saved by faith alone (which is not true...see James 2).

-- Anonymous, December 01, 2001

Barry, In our private email, from which I will quote only briefly, I think we may have made progress in pinpointing where we may disagree. You separate the "content" of the Gospel message from the "Instructions" which naturally follow as to the response. Semantics, I guess.

I asked that if someone gave the proper "content" but the wrong "instructions" (like Billy Graham) your responses were as follows:

No need to debate whether he includes the proper response to the Gospel... you and I both agree that he does not.

"Yes, you would still be preaching the Gospel, but you would be teaching falsely on how to receive the effects of the Gospel into your life."

So, you admit that Billy Graham is a false teacher, but nevertheless you call him "my Christian brother and I praise God for his ministry!"

-- Anonymous, December 02, 2001

Must I quote all the Scriptures I quoted previously showing that the Gospel is also something to be obeyed??????

-- Anonymous, December 02, 2001

Thank you Danny!!!

-- Anonymous, December 03, 2001

Well I hope I won't be adding to much verbiage to the melee, but so be it! I've been raised in the c of C for some fifty years now and have been to and studied many other denominations. ( Of which, we do not belong, a-hem!) Undoutedly the most destructive force christians are faced with is the battle between ourselves over who has the finer understanding!!! After the Gospel is preached, and accepted, then the process of matureation works in the believer to bring them to a fuller understanding of where Christ would have them. That is why the writer of the new testament said not to condemn those who abstained from meats. Because it was for us to help them "gently" to a higher plain. But, as stated they would stand before God on their own. Love L.John

-- Anonymous, December 15, 2001