Well, here it is. Out of the six goats the one with the lump/abcess on her jaw tested positive. I think. The vet here says the testing came back from UC Davis (he's sending me the report) and "1 of 8" means negative. She tested "1 of 32." He also said that "1 of 256" means positive. Does this mean that I found it early? She was bred by the borrowed buck so will he turn positive later? I asked him how I could sanitize the area where she is being held (I had no other choice but to tie her to the horse trailer so it needs sanitizing too). He said whenever there is organic matter involved it's difficult. But to use farm/barn lime and use it liberally. What about bleach for the horse trailer? I heard that this could be transmitted to horses. She's next to them and I really don't want to destroy them too. I was thankful that only one of six came back positive (although I'm in tears) but I guess of all the goats this one is the most meaty. She looks like a heifer. Anyway. Any info? Vicki, ya out there????

-- Gailann Schrader (gtschrader@aol.com), November 20, 2001

Answers

I'm not Vicki, but to my knowledge, if the abcess has not burst nor leaked fluid at this point, I doubt she'd be contaminating the environment. If she were mine...I'd immediately cull her though, before she does. No good reason to leave her there and take the chance the rest of your stock will be exposed. :)patty Prairie Oak Miniatures http://www.minifarm.com/prairie_oak http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Littlegoats

-- Patty Putnam (littlegoats@wi.rr.com), November 20, 2001.

I know this will sound a little naive, but I've not had goats and have never had to put one down--how will you do this?

-- Ann Markson (tngreenacres@hotmail.com), November 20, 2001.

I plan to shoot her and then cut her jugular. Bleed her out just like a deer (I call them fresh-water deer).

-- Gailann Schrader (gtschrader@aol.com), November 20, 2001.

Sorry about all this Gailann, if you were the one on the phone my son said you were very nice! Yes the test shows positive, though a weak positive. It could also show a vaccination positive. But now that she has had a lump and especially one in the jaw, and now you have a blood test back, and she is the only one, you should cull her. As long as you are careful at butcher you could easily keep the meat, I would opt for cutting into small pieces and grinding for goatburger or sausage. If others had been positive than keeping them and manageing the disease could have been an option, but not with just one. If this abscess burst on her jaw or upon butcher you find old scars in the hide, than Tech Trol or bleach sprayed on anything, trees, fences, barns, feeders will help some, so will sraping out the top layer in the barns. We all dealt with CL and CAE back before testing in 1990. We thought it was a type of cancer. To clean my herd I kept all my goats out in the woods pen, only clean kids and my oldest doe moved into the new barn. After several years my oldest does were put down, the barn was torn down and the pasture wasn't used for about 3 years. I then ran boers in it, for 2 seasons, not an abscess in the bunch. So we know the pen is clean.

I am very proud of how you are handling this situation. Nip it in the bud before it spreads, testing and now being able to cull like you should! I am ashamed to admit all the nice stock I ran through the auction barns with this before I knew what this was! And sadly in most other herds this doe would be destined for the auction barn, once the test came back positive. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), November 20, 2001.

Yes, it was me on the phone. Your son is a very polite guy. Thanks for the info. It really breaks my heart to destroy her. I was really wanting babies out of her - her babies were what I was going to trade back to the buck owner for the breeding "fee." I think my "dinner" goat wether is her baby and HE came back negative. So I think I will still plan on butchering him about January instead of now. I will use bleach and try to find Tech Trol - where do I find it? I am heartbroken but I know that it's infinitely better to have just one be positive than all of them - including the borrowed buck. I know this is as it should be but I don't feel much better about it. I plan to tan her hide as she has the most beautiful mahogany/dark cherry color to her coat. Rats, rats, rats. Thanks for all the info! Happy Thanksgiving! Do you add any beef suet to the goat or just grind it for burgers??

-- Gailann Schrader (gtschrader@aol.com), November 20, 2001.

You can purchase Tek Trol from K V Vet Supply. Excellent sanitizer.

-- Sandra Nelson (Magin@starband.net), November 20, 2001.

Gailann, I am so sorry about your goat. I have used "goatburger" for years and you will want to remove all the goat fat and add beef suet when you grind the meat. It really makes it taste good.

-- Karen in Kansas (kansasgoats@iwon.com), November 20, 2001.

I am so sorry to hear your bad news Gailann. Its a very difficult decision and not the easiest to make to cull, by that I mean put down. For the record as vicki said CL can be managed but it is quite a cumbersome task. I get very nervous whenever i see lumps, almost paranoid and i immediately test. I had some hmmmm a yr ago, but it turned out to be a goiter, an iodine deficiecny. My brain was trying to tell me it wasn't but i freaked. I treated the doe with iodine on her tail and she was fine thank God, just like our vet suggested.

My heart goes out to you, you are a strong and very sensible breeder, i commend your strenght and appreciate your frank and honest discussion of this. not many folks will talk about it, seems like its a closet disease yet prevelant. I won't get into details, but on my trip back east last week we stopped at a breeders farm and lo and behold if a doe didn't come over to me in the pasture and when i looked down i saw a lump, the person quickly mentioend CL but didn't think it was. Ok, so who am i to judge? but ya know what? i brought a pair of cheap shoes anyways to take along just in case.

Hang in there, it gets better. Glad you were able to contact vicki, shes a sweetie with a wealth of information and a heart bigger than the universe.

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), November 20, 2001.

Gailann, tell me how the hide tanning goes, if you do it yourself or send it out. My oldest daughters 11 year old doe is likely having her last set of kids here this March, I am thinking about doing this with her also.

I don't add anything to my goatmeat, just grind it, if the doe or buck is really old than I will add pork fat, pork and deer meat, since it lacks flavor, and make sausage. But younger stock is excellent used as ground meat. You will have to experiment, I have heard the goat fat thing before, like deer and elk, and so we never used the internal fat, it isn't on the meat anyway.

Bernice, you are just so nice! You make me blush! Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), November 21, 2001.

I plan on tanning the hide myself. There was a recipe in Countryside that used battery acid. Works well but my ability to get the skin soft isn't up to par. Ya gotta work it a lot. There is a neighbor that is a taxidermist that does an excellent job with hides (well, he sends them to California or some such mythical place). I've taken him coyote and fox roadkill that turned out nicely. This doe is only a year or so old. I would guesstimate her at 140+ pounds so I think the hide should be a decent size. I called a neighbor friend (out in the country a neighbor is anyone within 10 miles, ya know?) and asked him if he had gotten the single tree made for me yet (he processes 50+ deer a year in his shop for folks)and by the time we were done talking he had offered - and I gladly accepted - to come out and shoot her for me and help me field dress her. I know I will be in tears the whole time. I can shoot her myself but I'm so soft- hearted. I cry over butcher goats and chickens and rabbits and and and. I hate taking a life. If she looked less healthy it would be easy. Now I feel equally badly that I am not shooting her myself. I made the decision, I have to do it. I'm stubborn like that. (a woman with an M-1 and ammo to burn is never happy, huh?!) Anyway, the neighbor is coming over Friday at noon to start the festivities. Says he'll shoot her behind the ear and hopefully drop her immediately. Says he has all the grinders and all to process the animal but I am concerned that the CL will contaminate his equipment and thus all the deer he processes for other folk. Some of those people make jerky and I would hate to cross-contaminate (I work in food service/retail at the university so I am hypersensitive about this). I have a grinder that works on my Kitchen-Aid and I think I will use that or even chop the meat finely. Freshwater deer chili, vegetable soup, stew, burgers on the grill, cous cous, lasagne, ravioli, etc.! The Boy and I are gonna eat well this winter!! Thanks for all your thoughts - it helps. Have a very happy holiday and I plan on having Oberhasli babies from the other two (hopefully lifetime negative) does in the Spring!

-- Gailann Schrader (gtschrader@aol.com), November 21, 2001.

My circumstances are different from the above, in that I'm not breeding, selling, or eating my goats. BUT, I do have CL in my herd, and while I did lose a few animals initially, I have not lost any for the past couple of years. I see the occassional abcess, but they tend to resolve on their own. My problem started with a pair of rescue goats that came in a few years ago. For about 3 months after that, I had sick and dying goats. Lost about 4 or 5. But since that time, I've seen very few signs of the CL, and the goats that are out there now seem just fine. I guess if I was moving goats or having them in contact with other people's goats, I'd have to handle it differently. But since these are all pets, I won't put them down just cuz they've been exposed to CL. I've seen that they can live fine with it. Oh, and I've had horses next to the goats all along, and have never had any signs of the sickness in them.

-- Shannon at Grateful Acres Animal Sanctuary (gratacres@aol.com), November 21, 2001.

Shannon, goats have been managed with CL like this for years. Once the stress for them is over, the CL sort of internalizes and you can go years never seeing another external abscess. Unless it goes to their lungs or udder, it isn't really a problem. When we first started testing for both CL and CAE I certainly was not going to get rid of my older does who were positive for CAE. And honestly CAE is eaisly dealt with and if I wanted a bloodline bad enough I would purchase knowing they had CAE, quaranteen and glean kids off, superglue the teats, lutelize and pull all kids, using colostrum and milk from other negative goats. We did it for years and know it works. CL is a whole nother ballgame for us though. Being listed a communicable disease, it would effectively put me out of business. A vet could not ethically write you a health certificate knowing you have this on your place. And now more so with the scrapie regs, health certificates will be a way of life. You do a great service to the goat industry with your rescue, and I am sure you take flack for it. I am at the other end, brokering herds that go out of business, 4H kid sells out or when the goat owning spouse dies, I never hear the barbs directly, funny thing is when I broker the herd of someone trashing me when they knew the person much better than I did yet didn't step in to help. Better that the animals starve? You can never figure out some folks. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), November 21, 2001.

Well, she's butchered and in the freezer. My neighbor shot her for me as I was crying. Shot her with a .38 between the ears at the back of the head and she dropped clean. Never really moved after that. Bled out fast and clean too. Much more humane than my butcher goat kill last year. My neighbor has all the processing equipment for deer - he lets folk bring their deer (after they are tagged) in and helps them process them. My goat weighed 80# after field dressing and beat out the smallest deer by 30#. Boy is THAT fellow gonna take a kidding (sick pun intended). It was extremely difficult but I know that the goat is being used. We made goat burgers (with added suet) and I boiled the bones, added jalapenos and chilies for spicy goatmeat. I fleshed her hide and salted it down to tan later. Absolutely gorgeous hair on hide. My goat was quite a hit at the processing - there were three deer hanging and then my freshwater deer. Everyone had to look and discuss it and all. Kind of took my mind off of processing my friend. I do have a question for Vicki,Bernice,Rebekah, et.al. The feed store guy (goes to Texas and gets Boer goats to broker/sell) said all I would have had to do is inject 2-3cc of formaldehyde in the abcess and it would have cleared it up. I asked him if that didn't just get rid of that one? He said sure, but Dairy Goat folks are just fooling themselves that CL isn't in their herd. What's a mother to do? Given the choice again I would have culled her. Promptly. But what can I do to ensure that I won't have positives later? Or bring it in on a buck? Can negatives turn to positives later without exposure from another animal? Oh, by the by. No abcesses in her body as far as I could see. Thanks again for all the encouragment.

-- Gailann Schrader (gtschrader@aol.com), November 25, 2001.

Well..... you made it through the hardest part Gailann, you held up well considering. It always hard to do that, I know. Sounds like she will be well utilized and glad to hear she didn't have any internal abcesses.

As for your question. Yessss....... i have heard of the formylhyde treatment and have a dear friend back in VA who raises meat goats who does utilize that method, you must be very careful though as if you don't ge tit exactly right you can risk paralyzing the doe. I have information in my favorites on this treatment, be right back........

OK, found the article, here is the website addy about using the formalhyde (sp) treatment. I personally don't recommend this, however, again, what works for one may or may not work for others.

http://www.jackmauldin.com/cl.htm

I think you probably nipped most of your problem with transmitting CL by putting your girl down. However, Vicki really covered it well in how to prevent after contamination. Good Luck and hope this helps.

Berncie

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), November 25, 2001.

Inject it with formalin, have it surgically removed, both will get rid of that abscess, but she will always have more, and unless you watch her carefully she will contaminate your place and others. I just love how the Boer or should I say bore folks :) talk about us dairy goat folks! Yet who do they run to when they need the really tough questions answered? You can not deal with CL in your herd unless you are 100% private buther. Imagine what your friend would have said if he had sliced into an abscess on your goat, contaminating his equipment. I don't know anything about the business your friend that brokers goats from Texas does, but for me, if I was to sell one animal that later broke out in abscesses or CAE I would loose my customers! Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), November 25, 2001.

I kind of thought the feed store guy was talkin' crazee. Like "it's not MY problem that we used DDT and all the birds are gone... Made no sense to me at all. Like treating a Herpes outbreak with a salve and saying it's gone forever. Or taking antibiotics for a cold. Or using leeches.... Treats the OUTBREAK at that time, but doesn't EVER kill the virus. (sorry, ranting).... I spoke to my butchering friend (different guy) and told him I didn't want to cross- contaminate his equipment for butchering. He said that he boils the equipment before and after each animal is butchered. And he did. Still makes me queasy but I wouldn't doubt that some of those deer he helps with have problems too. Being in food service makes you jumpy over any unsanitary practices - sometimes I am so careful I worry about obsessive compulsiveness... Do deer get CL? That would be a nightmare to stop if that's how it's being transmitted. Like foot and mouth disease...

-- Gailann Schrader (gtschrader@aol.com), November 25, 2001.

Ah yesss.... Vicki, it tis interesting how those "Bore Breeders" will cast blame on us dairy folks. But ya know what? I was recently reading in an old Dairy goat Journal that the increase in prevelance in CL with goats in this country coincidently happened right after the Boers were introduced. I found the study to be rather interesting. And..... not to get down on boer breeders here, but from my experiences being involved in the Meat Goat coop back east I saw alot of goats come through the sales with abcesses and many on their respective farms as well. thats why i started carrying old shoes or cheap new ones with me when I went to any farm, could easily toss them out later. GRRRRRR in the word sof a sports caster back in western nYS, "Don't get me started!" I apologize to the many meat goat breeders on this forum as I am not pointing fingers at you, just those hot shot big boer breeders in TX who don't have a lick of sense and who think of profit as the bottom line.

I will also say this, our coop had to be insured for buyers who might get a load of goats with abcesses internal and/or external, if that happened then we would have had to buy the load and pay their expenses. New Holland Stockyards in New Holland PA will still take goats with abcesses.

I'm not sure about deer, but my guess is that it may be possible.

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), November 25, 2001.