Greetings -- This came up to some degree in another recent thread. I asked the same question some time ago, but no one ever shared an answer with me, so we'll try it again.

When it comes to the Holy Spirit and Christians today, there is certainly a lot of "hooey" (a very precise theological terem, I'm sure you will agree) out there ... running from extreme to extreme. As is usually the case, the truth is somewhere in between.

I have always understood, and taught, that at least two things happen at the time we are immersed into Christ. We are forgiven of our sins, and we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. A primary text for this certainly is Acts 2:28,39: "Peter replied, "Each of you must turn from your sins and turn to God, and be immersed in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. This promise is to you and to your children, and even to the Gentiles--all who have been called by the Lord our God."

This certainly seems to associate the indwelling of the Holy Spirit into all those who are immersed into Christ.

Yet, I have heard (and only recently) that there are those who do NOT believe the Holy Spirit indwells Christians, and that we only have access to the Holy Spirit through the Word of God.

I must confess I do not understand this belief. Now, certainly we get to the point of accepting Christ, repenting, and giving ourselves to being immersed due to the Word ... "Faith comes from hearing the Word of God" (Darrell's paraphrase). So I understand that we can't come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ without the Word ... but what about this indwelling thing? Does the Holy Spirit dwell within the believer? If yes, does this take place at the time of their immersion? If not, then when.

If the Holy Spirit does NOT dwell within a Christian, then just what does the above mentioned passege mean? And for what it is worth, I see nothing in the Acts passage that denotes the Apostles laying hands on the thousands of new believers after they were immersed ... might have happened, but it doesn't say anything about that.

Added to this discussion could be Acts 19:1-7. Paul asked the believers there if they had received the Holy Spirit "when you believed?" Their reply was that they hadn't heard of the Holy Spirit, having been immersed into John's baptism. After teaching them more fully, they were immersed into Christ. Following this, Paul laid his hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit, speaking in languages, etc.

While the text does not specifially state, I have always believed and taught that they would have received the indwelling of the Spirit at their immersion into Christ, and then received specific gifts of the Spirit when Paul laid his hands on them.

Thoughts, comments, 2c worth?

-- Anonymous, November 19, 2001

Answers

No thoughts ... no comments ... nobody has a couple of pennies worth of thoughts?

-- Anonymous, November 20, 2001

2 cents worth, eh?

Here's my pocket full of change:

Absolutely the Holy Spirit indwells Christians - "Christians" being defined as those who have heard & believed the Word of God, repented of their sins, confessed Christ before men, and were Baptized in His Name.

In fact, without His indwelling presence - one will never see heaven. Eph 1:13,14 speaks of us being "sealed" with the Spirit and that He is the pledge or earnest (down payment, if you will) or our inheritance. Without the Spirit indwelling us, we have no earnest in heaven and can not expect to just miraclously show up there one day.

Rev. 13 & 14 speaks of the specific marks being placed on the Godly & unGodly. The unGodly have the mark of man (666) while the righteous have the name of the Father written on their foreheads. Of course, this is symbolic language, but I ask could this recognizable name of God on the righteous be interpreted as the indwelling of the Spirit?? On the Day of Judgment, would not the Father recognize His own Spirit indwelling the believers? It sure would speed up the judgment process!!!

With that said, I DO NOT see the miraculous acts of the Spirit occurring today, as I Cor. 13 is clear on that. I do see the Spirit indwelling us and working within us WITHIN THE GUIDELINES of SCRIPTURE. I don't expect Him to teach me new things (that was for the Apostles only), or do miracles through me, or to "illumine" me in the charismatic sense. I see Him acting as an internal conscience, pricking my heart when need be and keeping me guided toward God via the WORD that I have exposed myself to. Hence the need to study the Word - it gives the indwelling Spirit more "ammunition" to strike our hearts with, in order to get us to see the need to align ourselves closer to God.

Ok, I'm out of change. Time for the next caller.

-- Anonymous, November 20, 2001

Darrell,

My short answer is (I do not have the time for the full answer) that the Holy Spirit is a person, not paper and ink. The purpose of the Holy Spirit in the life of the Christian is sanctification. This is much different than the gifts (plural) given to those upon whom the apostle's laid their hands. The gift of the indwelling of the Spirit is given at baptism. His purpose is to transform us into the image of Jesus. He does this BY His Word. As we make the Scriptures a part of our being, the Spirit transforms us into the image we see before us in His Word. It is the law of association.

I illustrate like this: If you have a car, great. But without any gas it just sits there. The Holy Spirit is given to the Christian at his birth (new birth, that is) but if we never "fuel up" with the Word, the Holy Spirit has no way to work within us.

I'll come back later if you wish and expand, but I've got things to do, so .... see ya!

-- Anonymous, November 20, 2001

Good points, guys, and good illustrations. Maybe this is a non-issue with the folks on this BB. I do inow that it is an issue with SOME of the non/anti-bretheren, as it came up at a recent area ministers meeting I attended.

One of the congregations in the general area had invited an evangelist from another area to preach a revival for them. One of the sermons he preached dealt in some manner with this issue, and his pov was that the Holy Spirit does NOT indwell, or live in anyone ... at the time of immersion or at any other time. The Holy Spirit is only available to Christians through the Word.

He was asked to leave following that sermon, and an area evangelist completed the revival.

Again, maybe a non-issue here, but since it came up, I was interested in folks take on the issue. As one person posted in another thread, it would be difficult to call a person brother or sister if they didn't have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Or maybe these folks DO have the indwelling, since they were immersed into Christ ...they just don't know it.

Or ... if a person did not believe they were being immersed not only for the remission of sins, but for the indwelling of the Spirit, then would their immersion be valid? I know many folks who strongly believe and teach that if a person is immersed WITHOUT complete (whatever that may be) knowledge of their being immersed for the remission of sins, then their immersion was invalid.

Wow -- as I stated in the "handclapping" thread, I had no idea God would make worshhip of Him so tough ... so hard to participate in.

-- Anonymous, November 20, 2001

Thank you Scott and Mark for helping me to understand this subject. I have felt strongly the same as Mark's last paragraph stated. And Scott completed the thought process. Just couldn't put it into words until now.

Darrell, I don't think it's that's tough to worship. I DO think that it takes some serious study to be sure we know what is acceptable to God. And as in the handclapping thread, as you mentioned, it should be worthy of some serious discussion. I felt that the the Authorization debate would have been worthy of someone's time to debate E. Lee. I was surprised that no one here felt they could. Interesting, and has given me much to think about.

-- Anonymous, November 20, 2001

Sister Cynthia,

There is MUCH more to be said about the Holy Spirit indwelling and sanctification than what's here, but I appreciate your kind words.

Concerning debating bro. E. Lee,I do not believe it's a matter of ability that this debate never took place. I can only speak for myself but I have no interest in getting into the formalities of a formal debate. I can expound Scripture, reason, and discuss important issues, but I do not have the capacity to maintain the formality that my brother is seeking. Nor do I have the time (or patience) for that same formality. I have started a new ministry here in Seattle and am very busy getting things established and extrememly excited by the greatness of this congregation. Besides that, I am one of the most informal people you will ever meet. I will discuss these issues as long as anyone desires to or until I feel I must shake the dust off and leave. I wouldn't expect to have to do either with Bro's E. Lee or Kevin, for they honestly hold to their views.

Anyway, I think there are other reasons for not debating other than inability.

Darrell,

What translation are you using? Although I appreciated Acts 2:38, verse 39 should be "all who are far off" not "Gentiles". As I understand it, the reference has to do with how long the promise is good for; you, your children and all your descendants that are far off in the future. At any rate, the Greek is "all who are far off." Gentiles is an interpretation.

-- Anonymous, November 21, 2001

Cynthia -- re: worship being so hard ... that was tongue-in-cheek.

Scott -=- I'm bouncing back and forth through a couple of translations .... I'll have to check. Thanks.

-- Anonymous, November 21, 2001

Well, it's been a number of days now, and with no new posts, I will have to assume that those on this BB agree with the concept that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit comes at our immersion into Christ, and is different from the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, which took place when the apostles laid their hands on people for that express purpose (outside of the BHS at Pentecost, and on the household of Corneleus, which took place to show how the New Covenant was for the Gentiles as well as for the Jews).

I made the (apparently wrong) assumption that there might be those on this BB who do not believe the HS indwells Christians today.

This is still something being discussed in this area between various ministers, and I will continue to try to learn the different pov's from them.

Thanks anyway!

-- Anonymous, November 25, 2001