Hi, I'm looking for other gay/lesbian countrysiders. Surely I'm not the only one!

- Justin

-- Justin Shelton (justinshelton@netscape.net), November 13, 2001

Answers

just to clarify,, you said your the only gay/lesbian,, meaning your both ????

-- stan (sopal@net-port.com), November 13, 2001.

Justin - nope - you ain't the only one bro - I thought I was (here in NC) - Dave

-- DR (DReece5@excite.com), November 13, 2001.

Sorry, but I am sticking with the team God intended me to be on.

-- Bubba (abuse@aol.com), November 13, 2001.

Sure wish you were the only one. That aside, don't exactly see how anyone's sexual preference is an appropriate topic for this forum. Hope once you find all of your "friends" you go to private e-mails to converse.

-- Colleen (pyramidgreatdanes@erols.com), November 13, 2001.

That's nice to hear, Bubba. So is Justin.

We are everywhere

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), November 13, 2001.

Wow, I thought this was a friendly place where people were accepted - differences and all. Some of those responses are down right hostile! A homesteader is a homesteader. Period. We hit on all kinds of touchy topics - religion, politics - in this forum and not everyone agrees with everyone, but there's no reason to be hurtful. Justin, I hope you find some like-minded and/or tolerant folks to chat with. Your lifestyle is your business. I believe I'll keeep my place and leave the judging to God.

-- Stacey (stacey@lakesideinternet.com), November 13, 2001.

Yes, we are everywhere...

-- Laura (LauraLeekis@home.com), November 13, 2001.

Stacey, I don't see where anyone was hostile. Maybe you are a little overly sensitive?

-- Colleen (pyramidgreatdanes@erols.com), November 13, 2001.

Don't worry Colleen, you are more than welcome here...

-- Laura (LauramLeek@yahoo.com), November 13, 2001.

There are, unfortunatly, many hostile and small-minded holier-than- thou people that participate in this forum. Fortunatly, there are some who are not. Tana

-- Tana Cothran (tana@getgoin.net), November 13, 2001.

You right. Maybe I am. I just know that if I had been Justin some of those posts would have hurt my feelings. You're probably right. I'm too sensitive. I guess I need to toughen up if I'm going to make it on the homestead. :)

-- Stacey (stacey@lakesideinternet.com), November 13, 2001.

Thank you Laura for your blessing. I'm sure you are just as welcome for bestowing that on me.

-- Colleen (pyramidgreatdanes@erols.com), November 13, 2001.

Frankly, I had to look twice to believe I was reading a post from you, Colleen. I expect hurtful snipes like "sure wish you were the only one" from certain individuals on this forum. I never took you for one of them. Too sad.

Peace,

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), November 13, 2001.

Frankly, I think that a message stating "I wish you were the only one" can be interpreted as rude. I'm already PRIVATELY replied to the sender, but it probably bares repeating here: If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.

Colleen, you might not agree with me and how I live my life, but then I don't tend to agree with many conservative "Christians" who seem to think that they have some sort of special status on this earth and are therein given permission to point out everyone's problems but their own. That said, I don't jump into the fray every time someone decides they'll take up bandwidth by posting an assortment of bible verses. When I find one of those messages I either read them for my own amusement or I just pass them by. I have NEVER posted a reply. I figure that if the poster is happy living his/her life by quoting the bible to the whole world then that's fine. Whatever makes them happy. I just don't feel the need to drag them down just because I think they're wacko.

-- Justin Shelton (justinshelton@netscape.net), November 13, 2001.

I believe that alternative lifestyles info has not much to do with fenceing, canning, cultivating, produce, tractors, ect. and it belongs under your roof, not this forums; just like religion and politics, you do not see them discussed here either.

-- mitch hearn (moopups@citlink.net), November 13, 2001.

Hey Mitch, I think you have a good point. But I have to say, homesteading is one heck of an alternative lifestyle! :)

-- Stacey (stacey@lakesideinternet.com), November 13, 2001.

Welcome to all countrysiders be they gay straight or indifferent, from a heterosexual countrysider.

-- fred (fred@mddc.com), November 13, 2001.

I think you will find quite a few gay and lesbian homesteaders, especially if you raise and breed dairy goats. I'm not sure why, but it is a fact that some of the world's finest dairy goat herds have been bred by gay owners.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), November 13, 2001.

While someone's orientation may have nothing to do with fencing, canning, livestock, etc - it does have everything to do with the person who undertakes these homesteading activities. Not only is this forum about sharing ideas and answering questions relating to these shared interests but also about finding those who DO share your interests whatever they are - (finding like people is like finding family) If you don't agree with people's lives - then just don't say anything - I can promise you that NO MATTER what you do say hurtful - the person isn't going to say to him or herself "ya know, that person IS right, I AM a bad person" that's silly - you wouldn't say it to yourself - so don't say it here. And as far as religion goes (and I'll be done - sorry) - No one sin is ANY different or worse than any other - so what's the point in pointing that out? Let he who is without sin cast the first stone, right?

-- DR (DReece5@excite.com), November 13, 2001.

Go DR!!! You hit the nail on the head!

-- Stacey (stacey@lakesideinternet.com), November 13, 2001.

Hello, Justin. Some of these people on here just make me want to spit. I'm a very happily married heterosexual, but with the way some of these other "straight" folks are treating you on here, I'm almost ashamed to admit it! God bless you, and happy homesteading!

-- Cheryl in KS (cherylmccoy@rocketmail.com), November 13, 2001.

Hi Justin, Out here in the West we walk lightling upon the Earth and pursue the homestead lifestyle with zest and determination. We are blessed with a mild climate that makes raising food and animals alot easier that in the snowbelt. We are also blessed with alot of winter sunshine. So we apply the sustainable and renewable energy systems that contribute to the welfare of all members of this forum (and the greater forum:Earth). Being at the end of the water supply, we are looking for an underground water source to sustain our groves. The cost of water is outrageous. But life in the country is what brings us all together and sharing ideas/helpful hints/technology/and our common interests has defined the people in my neck of the woods here. Like so many, I was thrilled to find this web site to share in what others had to say about our mutual lifestyle and desire to live as close to the land as is reasonable. I've learned alot. And I've come to know the positions of many who post here. Sure, I skip most of the threads, like everyone does at times. We're all different in many ways, but its our desire to live the mission statement of this web site that brings us together. Those are the subjects that some feel only appropriate. So, without belaboring the point, happy farming. And yes, the rainbow stretches all the way across this wide open country.

-- DWIGHT (SUMMIT1762@AOL.COM), November 13, 2001.

Hi, I'm looking for conservative fundamental, southern baptist christian countrysiders... Surely I'm not the only one !

Now if we all did that wouldn't it be kind of stupid. A religious, political, or sexual agenda should not be the topic lead in.

-- Ken in Maine (kenjan@nh.adelphia.net), November 13, 2001.

At first I wondered why someone would make such a post as Justin's. I wondered whether he was perhaps trying to kindle up an active and controversial thread. Then, without too much thought, it came to me. Hey, if I were single and wanted to meet someone who shared my love of the homesteading lifestyle, what better place to do it? I sure ain't going to run into them out on the back 40! So I think it is indeed a legitimate, homesteading-related post. Welcome Justin.

-- Laura Jensen (lauraj@seedlaw.com), November 13, 2001.

Consider this. Even in his time, Jesus may have been suspected to be gay. Past middle age for the time and never married, no reports of ever having a close association with a woman, apparently lived with his parents and surrounded himself with apparently single men his age or older.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), November 13, 2001.

Now normally I would not bother to make a reply to something like this, but I just had to say this. Justin, you just said that you should not say anything bad about anyone and then you went ahead and did just that. No one needs to be unkind to anyone around here and that includes EVERYONE! We all sin! We are all human! We all have something of value to give to each other! Let's make sure that is what we are doing here! If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all!

-- Cuz Mama said! (Be nice!@everyone!.com), November 13, 2001.

Some things should simply remain private.

-- gita (gschmitz@directcon.net), November 13, 2001.

I was fairly certain that this post would raise a fuss but man, I never realized that there were truly ignorant people left in the world. Are you prejudiced against just gays or does your hate/ignorance extend to other areas as well?

I don't suffer fools lightly and ignorance ticks me off every time...

Stacy in NY

-- Stacy (KincoraFarm@aol.com), November 13, 2001.

Personally, I'm looking for Martian homesteaders. Anyone want to own to that one? lol Jeez, folks. Isn't there enough strife in this world without picking at each other?

-- Iris (Sar_India@msn.com), November 13, 2001.

Well, guess we were way over due for a conflict around here! It's been what...hummm...a week or better since a biggie! LOL

Well, I haven't been able to figure out why gays always feel compelled to always make thier "gayness" an issue. What does being gay have to do with being a homesteader?? What the heck does it matter if you ARE the only gay homesteader?? Non-gays don't do posts like "are there any blue eyed homesteaders out there". If your gay be gay...if your straight be straight. Just stop making a big deal out of it and feel like you have to announce.

Justin, you took offense to the responses. What did you think would happen? You know darn well there are some neck necks, hillbillies, christians, etc. on here who aren't going to let that one slip by -- to say nothing the just plain folks with big opinions. If you are doing to do the post you have take what response you get and get over it!

Regardless, I do think people owe it to each other to be respectful of each others beliefs and lifestyles. Hey, although I am not gay (and personally don't get it anyway) I don't have to live with Justin but the guy does have the right to make a post. Remember when we were all up in arms over no christian content? Same principal...freedom to post...regarless of which side you are on.

-- Karen (db0421@yahoo.com), November 13, 2001.

Isn't there enough strife in this world without picking at each other?

Well, no, actually. It's considered sport in the Countryside forum if you must know.

={(Oak)-

-- Live Oak (live-oak@atlantic.net), November 13, 2001.

My point on this is why post such a posting to a homesteading forum? Is it okay if all of the child molesters come in here and ask for fellow homesteaders? (I AM NOT SAYING GAY PEOPLE ARE CHILD MOLESTERS). I am using that as an example. This is a forum for posting things about homesteading, not about alternative lifestyles. I have no problem with gays or lesbians. I have some for friends. My problem is that I didn't think it was appropriate for this website. I had visions of multiple postings on gay this and gay that issues next popping up on the forum. As soon as anyone disagrees with anything gay/lesbian, people jump in and say you are not being tolerant. Tolerance does not mean I have to accept the differance in every aspect of my life. It's just like the Christian thing on this forum. I don't want to hear all about Christian religion on this forum either. That is not what I come to the forum for. I come to it for homesteading issues. Personally, I don't care what religion you are or what sexual preference you have as long as I don't have to read about it on this forum. The religious zealots want to tell you why you are wrong for your beliefs and the gay zealots want to convince you why they are right for theirs. Either way, I don't want to hear about it.

-- Colleen (pyramidgreatdanes@erols.com), November 13, 2001.

Sorry Stacy you are wrong in your first post we DO NOT talk about god here remember, those things get deleter just as o'harah got prayer out of schools. Sorry folks the good old USA had turned out to be the Whores of Babalon. we have been P.C. so long that we have created our own doom. As for my feelings about gays on the board?...They'er everywhere

-- grant (organicgrange@yahoo.com), November 13, 2001.

i didn't want to get into this but here i go. i have found that most people who hate gays also hate blacks, jews, asians, men,woman and so on and then have the nerve to tell others, "i'm not prejudice" i may buy alot of garbage but i don't buy that. i guess you get my point.i've heard every hateful thing that could ever have been said since the beginning of time and i'm sure i'll keep on hearing them but i do tend to take the source into consideration.i am as guilty of saying hateful things as anyone else but i usually say them out of frustration. i have never not said, "i'm sorry" when i say something that hurts others feelings, no matter if i'm wrong or right. no one has the right to intentionally hurt others feelings or say just down right mean things to others. i was raised that you accepted everyone with respect. personally the only person i could ever dislike would be someone who harmed me, my family, my friends or any innocent person willingly. any others i just feel sorry for.

i would also like to add that i really do enjoy this forum and learn alot from all of you. most of what i learn is good and then there is some that is just plain BAD!

-- george (bngcrview@aol.co), November 13, 2001.

I have nothing against anyone .But if this gay thread can stay I think the christians ones should too !

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), November 13, 2001.

It doesn't matter whom we love, but that we love. From "A straight, but not narrow" hillbilly. Strenght and love to Justin!

-- Terri (teperry@stargate.net), November 13, 2001.

"Is it okay if all of the child molesters come in here and ask for fellow homesteaders? (I AM NOT SAYING GAY PEOPLE ARE CHILD MOLESTERS)."

What an absolutely horrid choice of comparision. You couldn't have used a different analogy? Or was it purposely chosen?

Stacy in NY

-- Stacy (KincoraFarm@aol.com), November 13, 2001.

Colleen, now here's a novel idea, since you state that you don't want to read "gay topics" on this forum, if you see a thread titled "gay homesteaders" don't open it.

-- Doug in KY (toadshutes@yahoo.com), November 13, 2001.

Ken, you might be interested in reading up on the Dead Sea Scrolls. They indicate Jesus was married (twice), had three children (girl and two boys), and lived to be at least 70 years old.

The Dead Sea Scrolls were unearthed in caves in Qumran (along the Dead Sea) in 1945. They date back to the time of the Biblical scrolls, and in fact, portions of the Biblical scrolls were found along with them.

The early Christian church deemed these scrolls heretical (they obiviously don't support the supposition that Jesus was the son of God who died on the cross), thus the need for burial and safe keeping.

A good book to start with is "Jesus and The Riddle of the Dead Sea Scrolls" by Barbara Thiering. It makes for very interesting and thought provoking reading...

Sorry, Justin, to take such a tangent to your thread. And Welcome.

-- Sharon/WI (pinnow@inwave.com), November 13, 2001.

Hey Sharon, I hope you have a firewall!! You done opened a can of worms here now! Go girl!

Seriously, Justin and anyone else new, be sure to install a firewall and a good virus detector before you post here; many many people have been attacked for their opinions posted on this forum, have had their computers damaged even. ZoneAlarm has a free firewall.

And Stacy, you say you didnt realize there were so many ignorant people left in the world? I guess you're getting a wee taste of what we live with every day. The least mention of the word gay gets peoples hackles up, fills some with rage, and inspires all sorts of self-righteous finger wagging. Logic doesnt get through, they still talk of sin and child molestors, regardless of the clear statistics to the contrary.

Yeah, its still around, big time.

Still hoping for a world filled with love and peace,

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), November 13, 2001.

Now you have gone and done it, Bring christanity into the fourm. Thats sure to get the posting killed.

-- Gary (gws@redbird.net), November 13, 2001.

What quite a few of the homophobics do not understand is that being gay is not about sex it's about who you are, how you see the world and how you interact in that world. One of the problems on this board seems to be that we have each end of the spectrum but too few in the middle. Either people are very conservative or rather liberal...Them again, I guess that's why we like it out and away from the mainstream white bread folks...

-- Laura (LauraLeekis@home.com), November 13, 2001.

Here's why opening up the gay can of worms is germaine to this forum.

1. Joint ownership of property. Some (read 'rural') banks are hesitant to make joint loans to unrelated/unmarried couples. It's worth dicussing here because other unmarried couples might have had experiences they can share.

2. What if you own a homestead, then get involved in a relationship and want to put your new partner on the deed/mortgage? Again, the way that many deed and mortgage companies deal with this is murky, at least as far as gay couples are concerned.

3. Amortization of farm equipment is VERY tricky, particularly when the equipment is jointly owned but the couple cannot file a joint tax return.

4. Need I mention some of the less pleasant aspects of living in rural areas, which tend to be a bit more conservative? I'm talking threatening phone calls, stones thrown at cars, bashed in mail boxes, and - worst of all - pets that have been murdered. All of these things have happened to me and/or friends, quite possibly because of living proudly as gays and lesbians outside of the 'safe' urban gay ghettos. (In spite of those nasty incidents, many of us wouldn't trade our country homesteads for city apartments!)

5. Some of us, mainly lesbians, have children who attend public schools. These parents and kids face huge obstacles to be treated with dignity by their teachers, principals, and school boards.

For the above reasons, which are a sampling of some things that come to mind right now, it can be helpful to meet others who are gay/lesbian homesteaders. I therefore think that the issue DOES belong in this forum.

- Justin

-- debbie (justinshelton@netscape.net), November 13, 2001.

Earthmama,

I guess I don't get out enough, and I'm profoundly glad if ignorance runs this rampant.

Hoping you have peace in your life.

Stacy in NY

-- Stacy (KincoraFarm@aol.com), November 13, 2001.

I said this on an old thread about this issue and will say it again....

Being a gay countrysider means you look at safety from a different vantage point for your homestead. Gay bashing is a sport in some locales.

It means you want to know if others are here so you can mention your lover or partner with the same frequency others use 'dh' and 'the wife' etc. without being threatened or judged or plain harassed.

It IS an issue for homesteading since it can be difficult to find that perfect place when the old retired couple won't sell the land to two men, or the financial and legal wrangles you have to go through to assure you both have ownership should something happen to one of you lead you to complex family arrangements.

We talk about lots of family relationships on here. This is just another one.

Welcome Justin and write if you get a minute.

-- Anne (HealthyTouch101@wildmail.com), November 13, 2001.

Debbie-we must have posted at the same time. Thank you for being clear.

-- Anne (HealthyTouch101@wildmail.com), November 13, 2001.

I'm really stunned by all this. I didn't realise Fear had such a hold on folks to this point. Very, very sad.

-- Iris (Sar_India@msn.com), November 13, 2001.

is this THAT big of a deal?? from some posts, it was easy to tell that there was SOME gay/lesbian homesteaders,, geez,, lighten up

-- stan (sopal@net-port.com), November 13, 2001.

what i like about being a countrysider.

i like that no matter if i am seen walking out of a straight or gay owned business that a cop who is paid by my tax dollars does not pull up beside me and call me a fag.

i like that when i am walking down the road with a straight male friend that a car full of guys (sitting so close that a piece of paper couldn't be slipped between them)does not go by with them throwing the finger screaming, "get out of the road you------queers!"

i like that i have not met anyone here that has been stabbed to death for being gay.

i like that when i am on my property that i have someone to share it with.

i like that when people come to visit that they always come back. (must mean they felt comfortable)

i like that i am judged by who i am and not who i'm with.

i like all the different people that i am able to have an enjoyable conversation with.

i like the class of people. they don't ask if i'm gay (because i live with a male) like alot of city people.(how come no one ever ask if you're straight if you're a male and female?)

i like that even though people know, that they are accepting and do not judge me.

i like that the people are happy that i moved here and have made it a better place.

i like so many things about being a countrysider. i work hard. i pay my taxes and i find that most people are much nicer than city people, even the police and cars full of guys (sitting so close that a sheet of paper could not be slipped between them).

-- george (bngcrview@aol.com), November 13, 2001.

"Welcome to all countrysiders be they gay straight or indifferent, from a heterosexual countrysider.

-- fred (fred@mddc.com), November 13, 2001."

I think Fred has said it well as it also pertains to religion or politics. Live and let live, so to speak. For those of a particular religious faith or political bent, go about your life. However, don't try to impose your religion, or politics or lifestyle on others. All three can probably be wrapped up in what the Taliban are now experiencing.

I too have had good friends who were lesbian or gay. We remained friends based on the above principle.

Heck, there are people upset about the Harry Potter movie in that somehow it encourages occultism or witchcraft among young people. As one article on it noted, there have been something like 50 million copies of Harry Potter book purchased and there doesn't seem to be any increase in occultism or witchcraft.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), November 13, 2001.

Justin, the issues that you raised above for your reasoning why you posted your initial post are ALL legal questions and are NOT homesteading issues. They pertain to ANY joint property, etc. and there are plenty of sites and attorneys for the asking. There are even many homeschool sites for your legal questions. Being gay does not have anything to do with them anyway -- any single person living with someone has the same issue.

-- Karen (db0421@yahoo.com), November 13, 2001.

Justin, I do not have any gay friends around here, and sure could add you to my friend list. My very best friend Danny(gay) introduced me to Mother Earth News about 30 years ago. I moved out to the country and he moved to Oklahoma. I sure have missed him. As a heterosexual lady living alone, I wish I could meet my kindred spirit in homesteading too. I wish you luck in finding yours. As an old hippie living in the country,I know how it feels to be surrounded by judgemental people. I really miss the old days when you were accepted for what you were and not condemed for it. Peace and Love. karen

-- Karen in Kansas (kansasgoats@iwon.com), November 13, 2001.

karen,your statement is not valid because gay people are not allowed to be legally married, while a male and female are.

-- george (bngcrview@aol.com), November 13, 2001.

Diddo Terri's post above! Hope you find someone to share your life and love of homesteading.Health and Happiness through the holliday season

-- Teresa (c3ranch@socket.net), November 13, 2001.

I'm ridin' with Fred. I'm a Christian married lady who is not buyin' a ticket to the inquisition. Gay issues do not interest me as they pertain to countryside, but then neither do some others (tractors, guns and small engine repair to name a few) I just skip over those. If I don't have something nice to say, I try not to say anything.

-- Ann Markson (tngreenacres@hotmail.com), November 13, 2001.

Hey, wait for me! This can most definitely be an issue with far-reaching implications for country people, gay or straight. What a wonderful opportunity for everyone to sort their feelings out. If it's difficult for some folks to tolerate this simple statement, I hope it's not so difficult to behave like a good neighbor in real life. Rural people especially have to be vigilant about their prejudices and help each other out, regardless of silly details. Confrontation is the weakest mode of persuasion.

-- witness (witness@hotmail.com), November 13, 2001.

This is why we are being hit with all this terrorism in our country. This WAS a moral nation at one time. Read His story (history) Learn from the past. Read the Old Testament. They thought the prophets yelling repent repent was hysterical and drank and had a good ole' time right up till they were taken over. History is repeating it self. God is letting our country be attacked because of all the sin that is being ACCEPTED and being POLITICALLY CORRECT!!!! You people have just seen the beginning of what is to come. I dare you to read the Bible and search for yourself. I know there are people here with book knowledge...why don't you read the Bible...it will change your life. And for the homosexual man that started this post I hope you will turn from your sin and look for Christ's return. He is coming people. I hope those of you who do not know Jesus will come to know Him. He will save you from the fire to come to this earth. My prayer is that you will listen and believe.

-- Judy (inhishand65@yahoo.com), November 13, 2001.

Justin-Welcome to Countryside Forum. Ignore the "Wizard of OZ" types. They're still in line for a heart and a brain.

-- Kathy (catfish201@hotmail.com), November 13, 2001.

OOpps, forgot courage. Not much of that going around either, and going home, well-they'll, have to do that someday, too.

-- Kathy (catfish201@hotmail.com), November 13, 2001.

Some of my best sheep are gay. I'm pretty sure that Seigfreid and Roy (my nubian wethers are, too.) I just couldn't ask them directly, though. But those outfits they wear....well, you know...you can kind of tell. No earrings, though...but sheesh.

The animal kingdom (queendom?) is just full of obliquely oriented sexuality.

-- sheepish (WA) (the_original_sheepish@hotmail.com), November 13, 2001.

Hey Judy, I dare you to read any science text, or heck, try Richard Dawkins or E.O. Wilson.

Who cares. This was a simple query looking for like-minded folks. If you arent', why bother?

-- Anne (HealthyTouch101@wildmail.com), November 13, 2001.

Justin, You are not alone! I'm in NC. I don't understand why all the fuss because gay or straight we are still living the good life on the land. We should all just help each other regardless. There are alot of GREAT people on this site but then you have the few who believe it's their way or else. Life is too short and with things happening the way they have been we just need to hang in there. I hope that when everyone who have helped my daughter and I read this that they don't change their minds. I wouldn't change mine. Good luck and I am always ready to be there for a friend in need. Sue

-- Sue (rainbowacres1@yahoo.com), November 13, 2001.

Hey Justin! Another gay Countrysider saying hello!

-- (dshogren@uswest.net), November 14, 2001.

I have to add that I live in SW Wisconsin, the most backward place I know, not a jew, much less a temple, or a black person in the whole county! I was surprised, moving here from Chicago and being so close to Madison and Dubuque. However there are a number of openly gay and lesbian couples in the immediate area and they live unmolested. With an area this close knit, any young gun would have his car recognized and get the snot knocked out of him by dear ol' dad if he caused any trouble. More populated and traveled areas give anonimity that allows people to get away with gay bashing. When Peter and I moved out here we were certain that we wouldn't be accepted as we are not married. Turns out that half the county lives in sin and most have cheated on their mates, common knowledge. What I'm not accepted for is my lifestyle, homesteading, being a vegetarian(another topic that sends ripples through this forum), having all my teeth :), etc...

-- Dianne (yankeeterrier@hotmail.com), November 14, 2001.

Good grief! I go away for a day and look what happens! Now...everyone..calm down and get back to homesteading or whatever! I'm not going to voice my opinion because it really doesn't make any difference! The world will continue to go around with or without my opinion! God bless!

-- Ardie/WI (ardie54965@hotmail.com), November 14, 2001.

Please,........enough of this bickering. Back to the barn, back to the garden, back to the kitchen. Back to homesteading issues...

-- Kate henderson (kate@sheepyvalley.com), November 14, 2001.

I'd have to say I'm more jolly than gay. Sometimes I'm even ebullient. I skipped most of the posts before this as they started to get silly. Not like this one, of course. Welcome Justin, and thanks for lobbing the softball for the tight minded...I'm not gay, but I am really quite jolly.:O)

-- gilly (Wayoutfarm@skybest.com), November 14, 2001.

I'm new to this forum and can't beleive some of the things that i've read. normally i wouldn't jump right in and post so rudely but some of what i've read goes beyond whats right.

1. Moral nation? what history books have you been reading? this nation was founded on freedom. then conveniently ammended to be freedom as long as it agrees with the beleifs of the founders. And who exactly did we steal this land from any ways? Ask the natives how justly this country was created. 2. this country is suffering because of sin? so what of the jews and their suffering? everyone is given the right to choose their lifestyle. If god gave that right then who are you to judge. Your lack of acceptance lends no credibility to your religion. single- minded judgement of others is the very thing that pushes others away from your beleifs. If bigotry, and self rightiousness are taught in your church I want nothing to do with it. ps. I don't remember hearing Justin preach about his beleifs.

-- olan (carhart@together.net), November 14, 2001.

Hi Justin and welcome to the forum! I'm straight (but not narrow) and a member of the other minority that tends to get tempers boiling on this forum (Pagan).

Namaste, Sherri

-- Sherri C (CeltiaSkye@aol.com), November 14, 2001.

Welcome Justin, and please just ignore the close-minded, rascist, bigots who are patently afraid of you and think you represent a "threat" to their "little world", these are the same ones who think the worst about all folks and think there are "boogymen" hiding behind every rock and corner!!!

There is a forum just for people who think like this, the Freedom and Self-Reliance Forum, please don't go there!

Like Sheepish said, the world of Nature is full of alternative sexuality, why should the human world be any different???

And, finally for the Christian folk out there, those without sin are free to cast the first stone. If Jesus can accept a prostitute as a friend and follower in his group of believers, so should you open your hearts to others that follow a different path. Quite being such hypocrites for pities sake!!!

-- Annie Miller in SE OH (annie@1st.net), November 14, 2001.

Ok Ya'll! I saw this happen last year when the days became shorter! Get outside and get some vitamin D for pities sakes! Justin said that he was gay. He wanted to meet someone (or someones) so that he would know that he was not the only one.....That should have been the end of that! Whether you happen to agree or disagree IT JUST DOESN'T MAKE A POOT OF A DIFFERENCE DOES IT! He will still be gay tomorrow and the next day and some of us will still be heterosexual or however the tarnation you spell it......Anyway.....Some of the people will still be pagan and some will still be Christian, and some will be whatever they were before this thread! No one will ever be bullied into changing their opinions! We learn and change by example! So do the best you can do at whatever you can do! Be kind, be considerate, and if you want to discuss something.....be NICE! I have noticed that some that have said that they would not be narrow minded have turned around and said some pretty narrow things about other's beliefs! Is that an Oxymoron? You know....like saying that you can't tolerate intolerance... English was not my best subject....So lets just all get along and stop trying to put anyone into a nice neat category! No one is going to fit anyway.....and if you are offended by a thread..then for PETE's sakes or should I say for JUSTIN's sakes......don't read the cotton pickin thing! Now I have gone and gottin a bit long winded on ya'll, but just everyone get along. I sure have loved talking to each and every one of you....even the ole awnry ones...and I would hate for us to get off track of what is our goal.......Helping each other out...and that includes helping Justin if he needs it. And as Ee'ore says......Thanks for noticing me! :~)!!!!!

-- Nan (davidl41@ipa.net), November 14, 2001.

Justin,

a Big Hug and Welcome. Are you already living on a homestead or planning on getting one soon? do you garden and can? I can give you a really awe some link to a gardening site to go check out and the canning sites are numerous! Do you raise livestock? I just posted a great link to smoking and curing meat a ways up the list in an inquiry about smokehouses. (ok, well, I think it is great anyway).

Again Welcome to the neighborhood. [Hands Justin a Cake recipe]

Pumpkin Cake Makes 1 - 10 inch bundt cake Ingredients 1 cup vegetable oil 3 eggs 1 (15 ounce) can pumpkin puree (I use home canned butternut squash) 1 teaspoon vanilla extract 2 1/2 cups white sugar 2 1/2 cups all-purpose flour 1 teaspoon baking soda 1 teaspoon ground nutmeg 1 teaspoon ground allspice 1 teaspoon ground cinnamon 1 teaspoon ground cloves 1/4 teaspoon salt 1/4 cup chopped nuts (optional)

Directions 1, Preheat oven to 350 degrees F (175 degrees C). Grease one 10 inch bundt or tube pan. (Soup cans make nice round cakes and great for gift giving, fill the soup can 3/4 full)

2. Cream oil, beaten eggs, pumpkin and vanilla together.

3. Sift the flour, sugar, baking soda, ground nutmeg, ground allspice, ground cinnamon, ground cloves and salt together. Add the flour mixture to the pumpkin mixture and mix until just combined. If desired, stir in some chopped nuts. Pour batter into the prepared pan.

4. Bake at 350 degrees F (175 degrees C) for 1 hour or until a toothpick inserted in the middle comes out clean. Let cake cool in pan for 5 minutes then turn out onto a plate (use a spatula or butter knife and go around the cake to help release it from the pan)and sprinkle with confectioners' sugar (Put the confectioner's sugar in a fine strainer and tap lightly to powder the cake).

(I make my own stencils, but you can find cute stencils at any craft store and sprinkle the sugar over the stencil for a dramatic effect)

-- westbrook (westbrook_farms@yahoo.com), November 14, 2001.

Hopefully, you all can learn how being gay translates to homesteading differently, i.e. how they garden differently, how they milk the cow differently, how they bake bread differently, etc. Other than the legal issue that was a half-hearted attempt to show how they have special issues, and that example would apply to any two people residing together whether they were same sex or opposite sex so it is not a gay issue, I can't see how it applies. I hope that additional postings on "gay" issues will have it in the title so I can be sure to skip them.

-- Colleen (pyramidgreatdanes@erols.com), November 14, 2001.

Yummy cake recipe! Thanks! ;~)! ....and hope that it has some vitamin D in it as well....heeheeheeheehee! An old song just came to mind.....United we stand...divided we fall....and if our backs should ever be against the wall...together! Together you and I.......!

-- Nan (davidl41@ipa.net), November 14, 2001.

Well Colleen dear, seems to me that iffen you had 'skipped it' the first time you saw it, most of this nastyness would have not appeared at all. Whyever do you keep returning to this thread, when it doesnt apply to you?

Peace,

-- Earthmama (earthmama@yahoo.com), November 14, 2001.

Oh Earthmama, you have a wonderful way with words! I have to tell you that! And, it isn't the first time you've made me chuckle. Take care and God bless!

-- Ardie/WI (ardie54965@hotmail.com), November 14, 2001.

This qoute from another forum seems to sum up adult polite behavior for those who are uncertain...;) I have also found a handy rule of thumb to gage my own racism/narrow mindedness is to insert the word 'black'or 'catholic' into the thought i was thinking..ie: " why is being 'black' such an issue to justin?', That seems to save me from a lot of 'foot in mouth' embarrassment. "One of the few rules on the list is that no bashing, name calling, finger pointing or other prejudicial or antagonistic behavoir belongs on the list... If you are here to deliberately cause trouble, argue or bash other peoples ideas without regard to their right to express those ideas, you don't belong here."

" The rules for the list are few but need to be followed to provide an enjoyable and productive list. All opinions deserve consideration even if you don't agree... That's not saying that you shouldn't post the reason you don't agree... That's what makes a *discussion*! (1. To speak with others about; talk over. 2. To examine or consider (a subject) in speech or writing.) Let's just try to avoid *altercations* (1. To argue or dispute vehemently.) This isn't the place to vent your anger... " "

Hey westbrook- Does the cake fall or stay raw in the center if you bake it in 8 x 2'' round cake pan? I cleaned out the mark down tinned pumpkin at the store! But i don't have a bundt pan & have never successfully removed a cake from a tin can...umm whole that is. Hello back at you Justin! I belive you will find the same 10 %ish queer that you have found in other communities. But you might have guessed by now country queer seem a little more comfortable in their skin and are quicker to label themselves 'goat-cow-mastiff-no till-farmer-blacksmith-people . -AnyThingThatMoves-bj pepper who is totally offended by justin leaving out bi-sexual in his definition of gay, you bigot you! LOL! ;0

-- bj pepper in C. MS. (pepper.pepper@excite.com), November 14, 2001.

What else I do not understand is why there are only "Christians" here and not other religions, scripture quoting, bible thumping, finger pointing and condemning all the "sinners"?

-- Laura (LauramLeek@yahoo.com), November 14, 2001.

True Christianity is not hypocritical. What you have seen is a poor example of what it is supposed to be. So sorry that is what you have had represented in some cases! Some of us do not feel that way I can assure you! If it is not done in a spirit of Love, then it is NOT done of God.

-- Nan (davidl41@ipa.net), November 14, 2001.

Snore...zzzzzzz!

-- Sandra Nelson (Magin@starband.net), November 14, 2001.

Pharacee's and hypocrites never die............they just stomp off and become lurkers to strike again another day. WELCOME BACK!!!

Was not even going to open this one, but then other threads got started and the next thing you know it is like old home week on CS. What is it they say.........this is like deja vu all over again??

Welcome Justin, whoever you are...........winter is coming and the folks all need some entertaining.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), November 14, 2001.

when i first started reading the threads i was interested in reading all the post from everyone. i envied the fact that most of you could speak openly and honestly about your homesteading live with your dh or dw. i on the other hand felt that i had to keep my partner a secret so that i would not offend anyone,howver, there is so much about what we do here as a couple that i would like to share with you all. we have been through some pretty wacky times here trying to figure everything out as we go along. he never goes into these forums for advise while i do all the time. it has been hard not to be able to share our homesteading life openly with you and i hope that there are some of you who will as time goes on allow me to be open with what things we have accomplished here on our small homestead.i am greatat getting my partner to help me with homesteading projects that he just doesn't get, like raising chikens,rabbits,all the veg gardens building outbuildings. we are no different than the rest of you as far as homesteading goes and what we enjoy about it and why we choose to be homesteaders and what we are working for. i hope that you will allow me to be honest with you when i post in the future. i don't care if you're straight,gay,christian,jew,black or white but i do hope that you are nice.

-- george (bngcrview@aol.com), November 14, 2001.

Go right ahead George! Everyone has the right to tell what they have accomplished and it will help someone somewhere somehow! and of course......everyone needs to BE NICE! Nice might be boring to some, but it is a lot easier to live with! ;~)!

-- Nan (davidl41@ipa.net), November 14, 2001.

i think this is the best thread to start this on. in 1995 me and my (dp) bought this run down place. i knew that i wanted to live here for the reasons that most want to live in the country however my partner only wanted to be here for the view. he had no interest in farming or growing vegetables.

after being here for a couple of months he arrived home from work with a truck load of old wooden fencing. i was mad when i saw all that old lumber. i said, "what are we going to do with all that? i don't want trash piling up all over the yard!" he said, "we will think of something to use it for" he took to long thinking about what he would use it for so one day while he was out doing errands i took the pile of wood and made 8'x8' shed. when he got home he said, "oh i see you found something to do with the wood that you didn't want."

i got into my car and said,"i'll be right back" he asked,"where are you going?" i yelled out the car window as i drove off,"it's a surprise."

when i got home i snuck down to my new shed and as i put my new chickens in i declared,"this is now a chicken coop." if you could have seen the look on his face. he was so mad at me for 5 minutes. he got over it real fast as he went to the new coop with new chickens and watched them. he said that shack won't last the winter. the coop is still standing and i still use it.

he never knows what i am going to bring home when i say, "it's a surprise" as i wave and drive out of the driveway.

after 13 yrs i still manage to surprise him especially now on our homestead. he had it easy when we lived in our tiny place in the city.

-- george (bngcrview@aol.com), November 14, 2001.

Colleen, gotta admit I agree with Earthmama on this one. When I first read Justin's post, I interpreted it as he was just wanting for someone to correspond with. He did give his e-mail address. Kinda like how some people ask if there is anyone from, say, Missouri. He asked a very simple, non-threatening question and in no way did I get the feeling he was trying to force any opinion on anyone. I have a brother who I love dearly, who is gay, and it really hurts to read some of these comments. Welcome to the board Justin, and George if you ever want to talk about homesteading, I'd be honored to correspond with you.

-- Annie (mistletoe@kconline.com), November 14, 2001.

Ooops, George, I gotta new e-mail address, so just let me know and I'll send ya one.

-- Annie (mistletoe@kconline.com), November 14, 2001.

i believe that the post speak for most countrysiders, most are a very nice,caring down to earth folks.

annie i too would be honored to talk to you anytime about homesteading.

-- george (bngcrview@aol.com), November 14, 2001.

Can't see why anyone would take offense at what you said George. Glad that you shared that with us! Looking forward to your input!

-- Nan (davidl41@ipa.net), November 14, 2001.

Yo'all finished yet? I have my own personal opinions which don't particularly favour either side of this argument; but they're no more germane to the subject of this forum than anything else in this thread, so I'll shut up now (wish the rest of you had done the same).

-- Don Armstrong (darmst@yahoo.com.au), November 15, 2001.

Don: Since when did any of us stay on subject? What is the rule that we had too? and why did you bother to say anything if you just told us you weren't going to? At least our comments have offended one or the other side of the argument and you have offended both. Not a good thing.

-- Helen Keller (Notthistime@me.net), November 15, 2001.

This is a true story.......

Some years ago there was a gay couple in southern Minnesota who were dairy farmers. They took great pride in their herd, and had built it up to be one of the best in the state. For the most part they were treated with respect by their neighbors, for they had proven their "worth" by hard work and demonstrating how, like most gay couples, they lived their quiet lives just like everyone else.

There were a few in the area, however, who occassionally harrassed them in town, shot up the mailbox, left obscene telephone messages, and suchlike. One of them was purported to be a relative of the sheriff, which may have emboldened them even more.

One year, this couple reached the pinnacle of their good work by winning the ribbon for Grand Champion bull at the Minnesota State Fair. Now breeding a champion bull is a very well-respected thing to do in dairy country; it is also very inculcated with macho culture, and apparently this honor was too much for certain individuals to bear being bestowed upon a couple of faggots.

After returning home from the fair, the phone calls and harrassment intensified to the extreme, and not surprisingly, the "law" was of little help. One night, while calmly milking their beloved cows, some local good ol' boys entered the barn and raped one of these fine young men.

This couple no longer lives in the country. One of the finest dairy herds in the state was disbursed, and their breeding skills lost. They were no longer able to feel safe in their own home, in their own barn, on their own land. Someone had made it clear that they were not welcome, were not wanted, did not deserve to be treated with dignity like other human beings. And they won.

Hatred starts with one little word, with one little referencing of people as 'other', as 'they' as 'those people'. Separating them from whatever common group one feels a part of,so as to begin the process of dehumanizing, and making it seem strangely comfortable to look down from lofty heights at those different from us, for whatever reason.

Don't even think of telling me to STOP, or that our issues are not germane to this forum, or that some things should be private,or that defending ourselves is bickering, or that you don't want to hear about my "lifestyle" (whatever the hell that is). We no longer sit in the back of the bigots' bus, content to not be beaten up and lynched. If you are offended by our presence in your life, get over it, cuz we aint goin nowhere. You will treat us with respect, or YOU will get off the bus, and in the meantime, I will help disabuse you of your misconceptions, or, failing that, I will gently help you disembark.

"Your silence will not protect you"

Still hoping for peace and love throughout the world,

-- Earthmama (earthmama@yahoo.com), November 15, 2001.

ok, I didn't want to get caught up in this ridiculous discussion but I'd like to point out 2 things out since it was mentioned.

Respect is a privilege, not a right.

Demanding that people to accept your beliefs or lifestyle is hypocritical.

-- Dave (something@somewhere.com), November 15, 2001.

3 rights do not make 4 wrongs!!!!

-- C.A. Cagney (Puttingood@carolina.rr.com), November 15, 2001.

Nein, I mean no, no one asked or would expect to have their ideas accepted unconditionally. Only that others be kind. I am certain that the Gay people on this forum are used to being disagreed with. This does not give anyone the right to be rude however.

-- Heinrich (Heinrich@himmel.com), November 15, 2001.

Are you all still beating this subject to death! Oy vey! Would any one of you consider letting this thread stop???? By now Justin must think some of us here are nut-cases! BTW Justin, I AM a nut case, but relatively harmless! Welcome and God bless!

-- Ardie/WI (ardie54965@hotmail.com), November 15, 2001.

I know a guy named Freedom that lives in the mountains. He is gay and he is looking for a countrysider to share chores with. but I don't think he is lesbian.

-- C.A. Cagney (Puttingood@carolina.rr.com), November 15, 2001.

I work with a gentleman who is always trying to convert me to his belief in Christianity, and has told me on numerous occasions that if I don't believe Jesus is my savior, I will go to hell. I believe in God, but not in Christianity. This thread has once again enforced those feelings. It would seem the same people that are quoting fire and brimstone are proving to be least in God's image of all. Someone stated farther up that this was once a moral country, and implied that by being gay was contributing to the downfall of our country. Does this person remember reading about oh..say the Salem witch trials? I find no moral to be found in that period of time, just pure evil ignorance dished out in the name of God. It seems to me that following a "Christian" way of life means to cast stones, judge and hold yourself holier than thou. Those "less pure", those who believe in helping others, who understand the link with spirituality that comes in nurtuting the land and the animals upon it, those who are content to accept their fellow human beings and not judge them for what they are....these people in my mind, are what I beleive God wants. If they happen to be Christian as well, or Jews, or any other belief, great. Some woman posted a thread on here looking for a like-minded man to share her life with her. Her request was met with responses to look in places like this forum, and feed stores, etc. If that is okay (and it is!) then what is the difference if another asks for like-minded as well, regardless of if it is a gay companion, a person of different color, different religion or race? Perhaps I missed something, but I didn't read any rules on this forum that stated a Countrysider must be 1) Straight and 2) a Christian. Justin is a fellow human being.....and a like minded Countrysider. Let's leave it at that shall we?

-- CJ (cjtinkle@getgoin.net), November 16, 2001.

Amen!

-- Ardie (ardie54965@hotmail.com), November 16, 2001.

Beautifully said, CJ .......

-- Earthmama (earthmama@yahoo.com), November 16, 2001.

{sigh} Ah, I may as well...

Jason and CJ:

Just a few notes to add to the discussion.

First, Christianity. There have been arguments since day one concerning of what Christianity consists. Whose version are you getting? The Church of Rome (Roman Catholic) claims teaching authority, which includes interpretation of scripture, systematic theology, philosophy. I have found a consistency and coherency in Catholic teaching which far surpasses that of any other denomination. Yes, wicked catholics, mafioso, bad popes, and Rome-bashing books abound. Yes, they are a scandal to the Church. Maybe I am the worst of them. Go ahead and quote them. These do not accurately reflect what the Church teaches. Biogrophies of Saints abound also. I only bring this up to suggest you consider the source of the teaching, and go to the sources if you wish to enquire. I am also aware that you will probably have no reason to do that until you meet a Christian whose life impresses you.

On Ignorance: Isn't anyone aware of people who have renounced their homosexuality and gone on to lead a heterosexual life? Conversion stories abound if you look for them. You won't find them at Barnes and Noble, though. Try a Christian bookstore. Are these people happier? Read and find out.

On Fear: Yes there are homophobes out there. But not everyone who finds homosexuality distasteful, inappropriate in public or around children, or immoral is necessarily homophobic. People do come to these attitudes, feelings, or opinions naturally, or through reason or faith. Yes, faith. Spouting Christian morality, hellfire and brimstone is not the same as faith. But that is another discussion.

On Love and Hate: Again, there are homo-haters out there. But Christian Theology is antithetical to hate. A person who hates homosexuals (or anyone else) and says he is a Christian contradicts himself. But Christianity teaches that homosexuality is not natural to Man, and that he therefore cannot be fulfilled if he urges or practices it.

So I will say what I believe is the correct thing for a Christian to say: Justin, I hope you find fulfillment, and I believe it lay in, among other things, your turning away from homosexuality. But I don't believe you will do that unless you see something better to turn to. My hope is that you will meet some Christians who love you as God loves you, so that you can know the love of God which will inspire in you a life free from the bondage of sin.

As for posting anything about 'gayness' on a public (but privately owned) bulletin board, I think it is not appropriate and respectfully request that you refrain out of courtesy. But maybe that courtesy is no longer common.

In any case, I hope you enjoy homesteading, and I wish you well.

-- Bob (robertblessum@netscape.net), November 16, 2001.

Hi George! I liked your story and I hope that you continue to contribute to the forum.

I really don't have anything to add to the discussion, I just wanted to be the 100th answer. Do I win a prize? :)

-- Sherri C (CeltiaSkye@aol.com), November 16, 2001.

Hi Justin,

The more I read these threads the more I begin to understand that gay homesteaders or anyone who cannot/will not marry might face some situations in homesteading that I will never have to cope with. In that light I hope you will continue to post here because we might could all learn something.

For myself I hope you will keep your posts in good taste and those who are heterosexual should do the same. We're here about homesteading and if you have something to ask or contribute that bears on that topic then be welcome! The concept of homesteading has much to do with a desire to be self-reliant and nothing at all to do with your sexual preferences OR your religion though either could affect your particular situation and thus questions of how they impact your relationship to homesteading are appropriate.

Anyone one that doesn't like the fact of your existence will just have to cope.

={(Oak)-

-- Live Oak (live-oak@atlantic.net), November 16, 2001.

So Bob, you "respectfully request that you refrain out of courtesy" from posting anything about gayness, inferring with your final statement, that to not adhere to your request is discourteous to YOU and your ilk.

Isn't that interesting that you seem to think it entirely courteous and acceptable to give your unsolicited opinion on the real lives of real people about which you know little or nothing? That you would ASSUME that Justin, whom you personally addressed but have never even met, is in need of 'fullfillment', or 'something better to turn to', that he requires rescuing from a "life free from the bondage of sin". You have been hornswaggled, dear sir, into actually believing that gay people are miserable wretches, in need of saving and exposure to what YOU view as truth in order to rescue them from the depths of their self-imposed depravity. You even mention the 'recovery' movement certain sects of "christians" are so fond of. I can assure you we are well aware of the horror wrought on hundreds of people in the name of that faction. Talk about abomination. For all your stories of 'conversions', I can give you hundreds more that dispute most every one, and offer the truth behind the barbaric manipulation that people have endured. Go to a Christian book store to read books written by those who would silence us? Those who think we are a biological error? Those who would change us to make them more comfortable with their own prejudices? Many of us have read this stuff; I believe in knowing those who have chosen to be my enemy,and many of us were brought up in fundamentalist homes,and are well aware of the party line. Can you say the same? Have you been to a gay bookstore to find the texts on homosexuality and the church? Do you truly know the history of the christian church and how it relates to gay people? Have you read the stories of how people have been persecuted, in ways large and small, simply because people like you believe what you do?

Sorry to disappoint, Bob, but we are not miserable, except when people like you try to make us so. The 'christian' right can continue their fictions about how we live till the cows come home, that doesn't make any of it true. We will continue to live our lives just as does everyone else, with its ups and downs, its joys and sorrows, with our partners or without, with our children or without, with our parents blessings or without. And in the meantime, thank you just the same, but we will not need saving by you or anyone else, and we will continue to be a part of the world, as we always have,only never again will we be silent.

Peace,

-- Earthmama (earthmama@yahoo.com), November 16, 2001.

Well well well ... you folks are just plum funny sometimes! Them of you whut be tolerant and all peaceful like say nice thangs and them what of ya aint too tolerant or maybe just aint too brainy gotta prove yer stupidity by even respondin here. Ifn ya dont like what ya see don't start typin all yer insults an more likely than not whut ya don't like won't hang round. At least ya won't wast yer precious time (or the rest of ours) with yer dribblin snotty remarks. Just ol Cap spoutin off at the mouth agin sayin my bit an all! Yall have a nice day ya hear!

-- Cap'n (cptnktal@yahoo.com), November 16, 2001.

Ahhhg! You snuck up again! Cap,t ,sir uh, are you feeling allright? You sound downright levelheaded today, iffin you don't mind me saying so...;) +grin+

-- bj pepper in C. MS. (pepper.pepper@excite.com), November 23, 2001.

Earthmamma,

You are doing a lot of assuming about what I know and don't know, have experienced and not experienced. I have known personally a couple of people who turned from homosexuality. I have watched them struggle and win. I have watched their personalities change. I have watched them gain control of themselves. I have watched them grow in peace and charity, as opposed to the dominant self-centeredness and inner conflict they knew before.

I also know personally people who have struggled with other forms of addiction and spiritual disease. The behavior patterns are the same. Sometimes they take easily identified forms such as homosexuality, alchoholism, womanizing; for many of us it is just insecurity, restlessness, weak will, fear, pride lust, envy, greed... All are forms of selfishness and pride. I have struggled also, and continue to struggle along with others on the same walk. Anyone who has begun a spiritual journey with God can attest to selfishness and pride being at the bottom of our problems. Not everyone understands or has first-hand or second-hand experience of every manifestation of sin. Nor do I claim such wide-ranging knowledge; but all such things come clearer with time, once you find trustworthiness in persons that reflect God, and begin to trust Him and seek His will.

I did not tell Jason to go talk to someone who has recovered, though this would be far preferable to reading about it, because I guess that he will have a hard time finding someone who will talk. There must be recovery centers or ministries out there for those who wish to pursue it, but, as with any human organization, they may not all be staffed by the most helpful. I suggested the Catholic Church as a source for spiritual healing of any ill, whether there is a specific recovery program or not.

You assume that I have been indoctrinated, I think, because you have not experienced what I have experienced. I assume that you have been indoctrinated because, based on my experience, I cannot picture mental health and homosexuality cohabitating, and because the philosophy and theology I have studied form a coherent world-view that explains everything, within the limits it admits. That explanation concurs with my experience.

I am all for increasing mutual understanding and respect. If you wish to carry on a dialog via e-mail or snail mail, we can begin to sort out what are primary issues, and recommend further reading. We could also visit one another. I live in Eastern Ohio.

Happy Homesteading.

-- Bob (robertblessum@netscape.net), November 27, 2001.

I'm sorry, Bob, but it appears you just kinda skipped over much of what I said.

I already commented on the issue of people who have 'turned from homosexuality'. Your very interesting anecdotes do not change a thing. Perhaps you should re-read my last post.

Typical "Christian" self-righteousness notwithstanding, I'm sure you mean well, but your arrows are pointed in the wrong direction, even if they are arrows of love. I am VERY well acquainted with all the 'truths' you are attempting to relay to me and mine; I grew up in a fundamentalist home, and spent my youth almost entirely associating with well-meaning church people,absorbing the Bible and have heard it all before. Indeed, I have SAID IT MYSELF, a hundred times over, before I saw my arrogance for what it really was, before I saw the pain I was causing in those I claimed to care about.

Now I let people be who they are, unless they attempt to slander my people, and even yet I try to treat them with the respect that we all deserve.

Seems to me this is the crux of why you refuse to see us as we are: "I cannot picture mental health and homosexuality cohabitating." More's the pity, but just because YOU cannot picture something, does not make it any less true.

Yes, I have several books I think would be very enlightening to you.

Blessings,

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), November 27, 2001.

Bob, could you for a minute think about turning from heterosexuality to homosexuality? Because a group of people have deemed it the unforgiveable sin (which it is not), or a sin at all? Just as you could not imagine or comply with the switch neither can they. It would be better to live a lie, and to drag everyone into this lie? Better for who? For you? There are so many other causes that need the Church, feeding the poor in your communities, daycare, homelessness. Please focus your energies towards loving things. Churches and individuals are only able to be judged by thier fruit (works) by man, and especially by "unsaved" man, and some of them works truly stinketh! Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), November 27, 2001.

Earthmamma,

I did not skip much of what you said, I cut to the quick of it. Their are two main things that bring people to have a certain belief about a particular topic. 1)experience 2)ideas If we are wise, we will always admit that our experience is limited and our ideas are incomplete. Our experiences are perceived through the lenses of our ideas, just as our ideas are formed by our experiences. You dismiss my anecdotes as "interesting." You don't seem to think there is any truth in my anecdotes, is that correct? You don't think that these people actually changed as thoroughly as they report? Yes or no? Is it your experience that no one has ever changed, that attempts to change them always fail, and so you believe it is not possible, or is it that you have been convinced by argument that it is not possible or don't want to believe it, so you refuse to or cannot believe the eperiences I am telli

-- Bob (robertblessum@netscape.net), December 01, 2001.

Sorry- some kind of computer error tried to insert post before I was finished.

Earthmamma,

I did not skip much of what you said, I cut to the quick of it. Their are two main things that bring people to have a certain belief about a particular topic. 1)experience 2)ideas If we are wise, we will always admit that our experience is limited and our ideas are incomplete. Our experiences are perceived through the lenses of our ideas, as much as our ideas are formed by our experiences.

You dismiss my anecdotes as "interesting." You don't seem to think there is any truth in my anecdotes, is that correct? You don't think that these people actually changed as thoroughly as they report? Is it your experience that no one has ever changed, that attempts to change them always fail, and so you believe it is not possible, or is it that you have been convinced by argument that it is not possible or don't want to believe it, so you refuse to or cannot believe the eperiences I am telling.

I think you are arguing the same in reverse. There are two ways for me to come to your position or you to mine: by argument or by experience. Obviously neither is going to convince the other by argument. Perhaps the books we mentioned can convey the experiences, but what are the chances that either of us will believe them?

Nevertheless, I am open to exchanging book titles and introducing you to some people who have changed, and meeting people who have not and say they are happy.

As far as persecution, I have already addressed the topic when I said that there are various people claiming to be Christian and not teaching what the Church teaches or living it, and I have seen many books and articles slandering (telling lies) about the Church. Historical inquiry is part of the puzzle. But I will read what you have and check it out for myself.

Vicki - I understand that Earthmamma is claiming that they could not imagine switching. I am saying that there is experience, knowledge, and Grace available, and that I have seen it work. Since I have seen it work in some people with homosexuality specifically, and with many other people and ailments as well, I have a hard time believing that it will not work for those whom Earthmamma knows. She does not acknowledge seeing Grace heal people of anything, so I understand why she doesn't think it will heal them of homosexuality. I also understand that they say they are happy and don't need healing. People can convince themselves of anything. Look at Bill Clinton. A pathological liar believes what he says when he says it, and thinks that if he convinces himself, others will believe him.

Who's version of this whole thing is correct? I think the lines are fairly well drawn, and only someone willing to investigate honestly will find the Truth.

May your garden be weed-free.

-- Bob (robertblessum@netscape.net), December 01, 2001.

Bob, I would like to tell you what happens to people who are gay that pretend to be straight. I thought everyone wanted me to be straight so I went along with it. I got married had a daughter was very unhappy living in my make believe world. I was living a lie for straight people, trying to make them happy. I knew I was miserable and so did all the straight people who wanted me to join them in their straight lives. It did not matter that I was living a lie and unhappy to the straight people who were suppose to care for me and love me all that mattered to them was that they were happy.

The outcome was that my straight marriage was a daughter who I have never seen and a divorce. So, I am an example of what happens when gay people pretend to be straight for people like you. Lives are ruined when gay people pretend to be straight. I would never think of telling a straight person that they can make themselves gay. Please, if you are straight then good for you. I hope that you have someone to love and that she loves you back.I have someone that I love and I don't like being told that the love I have is wrong when it's right for me.

When I finally decided to walk the path that was right for me I became a much happier person, and until the day that you walk in my shoes please don't tell me that I'm not telling the truth about being happy about who I am. And I am happy at being who I am without trying to get you to be gay. You are straight enjoy being straight but let gays enjoy being gay. No one from up above has come to me yet and told me that who I love will determine where I go when my time comes.I don't believe that my maker gave anyone the honor of deciding who I wil or wil not love.

-- George (bngcrview@aol.com), December 01, 2001.

"heal them of homosexuality"

Bob, In that statement you show your narrow minded bigotry. How can you be healed of something that is completely normal. You are the one judging that they need to be healed, certainly not God. They do not choose to be homosexual anymore than you choose to be heterosexual, you can choose to be compassionate.

Excellent post George. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), December 01, 2001.

Well, Bob, I gotta give ya credit for gall anyway! :)

"I did not skip much of what you said, I cut to the quick of it" !! LOL.........a cute way of saying you sifted through my words to suit your arguement?

"You dismiss my anecdotes as "interesting." You don't seem to think there is any truth in my anecdotes, is that correct?"

Nope, not correct. There is ALMOST ALWAYS truth in anecdotes; but that doesn't change the fact that they are anecdotes. Anecdotes are little snippets of someone's personal experience, and although I'm sure very meaningful to those directly involved, they bear no weight to the big picture, because they ignore the thousands of people whose stories are polar opposites to the anecdotal one.

"... that there is experience, knowledge, and Grace available, and that I have seen it work. Since I have seen it work in some people with homosexuality specifically, and with many other people and ailments as well...."

Ah, yes, Bob, I too believe in Grace, it may surprise you to hear. I too have seen lives and hearts changed by Love. And because I believe in this Power, I heartily believe that even you shall someday come to see the damage that your judgements, based on ignorance and fear, continue to wreak on countless numbers of my sisters and brothers.

To get you started, two scholarly works on the issue of homosexuality and Biblical perspectives:

Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality : Gay People in Western Europe from the Beginning of the Christian Era to the Fourteenth Century by John Boswell, Professor of History, Yale University, now deceased.

and

THE GOOD BOOK, by Peter Gomes, Harvard University's Memorial Church minister since 1974. This book is about many other fascinating contemporary issues as well, and how our modern culture relates to the Bible.

Website: CHRISTIANITY AND HOMOSEXUALITY

Peace and blessings to all,

-- Earthmama (earthmama@yahoo.com), December 03, 2001.

Okay - so much for talking past one another.

Here are a couple of refs:

www.CourageRC.net

www.BeyondGay.com

Peace.

-- Bob (robertblessum@netscape.net), December 04, 2001.

Vicki-

Don't take my word for it, then. Ask someone who has experienced what you think is impossible. Start with the sites I gave you and notice the growing list of links.

May all the bad bugs in your garden freeze to death this winter.

-- Bob (robertblessum@netscape.net), December 04, 2001.

George- I am very sorry that whole situation played out as it did, for you and for all involved.

I have no doubt that your marriage was a disaster because you PRETENDED to be straight. "I thought everyone wanted me to be straight, so I went along with it" Therein lies the crux of the problem. You "went along", to please others or avoid confrontation or criticism? When has that kind of conviction or motivation made for a good basis on which to make an important decision, to embark on a lifelong challenge? No wonder you had trouble. I'm not trying to sound harsh, just trying to lay out the essential thought process.

Getting married, all by itself does not fix the problem, because it does not address the problem, necessarily. Any two people can go say "I do" and get a peice of paper that says they are married. Many marriages end in disaster. Which ones succeed and which fail? Why? Put your mind to that question and do some observing and thinking on it. I know my wife and I had not thought about it enough before we got married, and were then forced by the pressures of marriage to start searching. Fortunately, my wife and I have found some answers, or we'd be divorced too, and in a world of hurt.

But any two people, including a gay couple, who set their minds to the larger question of what it means to be Human can find meaning and healing. Yes, you can still be gay and grow in peace and find meaning in life. Often, this process ends, though, in giving up the homosexuality. One such story is on the CourageRC.net website under Testimonies.

As you'll begin to learn if you check out these refs, however, Christian life involves the VIRTUE of Chastity, whether you are married, single, or otherwise. A virtue is not just an idea, but a habit, a pattern of behavior, an orientation of thought, a direction of the feelings. Growth in this and other virtues gives us the internal fortitude to love one another and carry out our responsibilities.

Again, I have to say that Grace is required, lest you think I am boasting of being some super-virtuous person or representing some super-virtuous group. If it were up to my own strength, my life and several others around me would be a shambles. Sometimes I think I could have been voted, "most likely to end up on the clocktower with an automatic weapon" but it has not happened that way, only by God's Strength which He offers to all. It's been a great debate, folks, but I'm running out of time, and will be too swamped for forums for the next couple of weeks, I think. Peace.

-- Bob (robertblessum@netscape.net), December 04, 2001.

Hi Bob. I knew the PRETEND would catch attention. When you are gay and you live in a world where gays are usually hated by people who have never had contact with gay people then (in most cases)you do pretend to be what the people around you are which was straight. Imagine if you will that you are gay and growing up in the country, you here constantly, "I hate queers, If I knew any fags I'd kill them and no one would care because they are perverts." This is from people who have no idea that the person they are saying those words to is gay. Or suppose that in your own family you hear, "I will tell you what if I had a kid who was queer I'd kick them out of the house and never talk to the again." When you hear those things directed at a group of people that you belong to it hurts, so you PRETEND to be one of the haters, knowing full well that not only are you not being honest with them but that you are not being honest with yourself. When you are young (or any age for that matter) you want your family and friends to respect you for who you are and not who they think you are. If you know that they are not going th accept you for the real person you are then you do PRETEND to be the person they think you are, and that in a lot of cases leads to a marriage to the girl that you have always heard about, you know "Oh someday the right girl will come along and you'll settle down and be married just like everyone does." Finally the time comes when you should be dating or thinking about being married but you have never met the "Right Girl" Now the family and friends that you love start to talk to each other about you not showing any interest in girls. Someone decideds to bring the talk to your attention. The person who brings the rumors up is very upfront and does not hold back on the hateful things that are being said. Now, here you are in your late teens, you know of no other person in the world like you, you have no one to turn to so you do what you think is right so that you are not disowned by the people who mean the most to you. You PRETEND so that you are not an outcast. You PRETEND because you know that even though everyone who knows you knows that you are gay wants you to PRETEND not only for yourself but for them so that they can hold their heads up high when they walk down the street. After all you are from a very small town and everyone knows the family, and we all want everyone to believe that everyone of our kids is "Normal" WE really know that he's gay, he knows that he's gay and his wife knows that he's gay, as long as we all PRETEND that he's straight then we can remain a proud family.

Then comes the time that you are so miserable at playing the straight game that you walk out of everyones life without a word, because this will be the easiest for everyone. It is better that everyone believe that you are dead because to finally have to admit that you really are gay is worse then you being dead. Time passes, you miss your family and friends and wonder if they miss you. Finally after years you take a deep breath and call your family to wish them Merry Christmas. Your family does not reconize your voice, maybe because your voice has changed or maybe because you are nervous. Finally they relize that it is there son who just left without notice. Their son who they feared had been killed and was buried without them ever having a chance to say good-bye. Their son who they love so much that he could never do any wrong. Their son that they made afraid to just tell them the truth about who he really is. You make arrangements to finally meet with your family after years of seperation.

You arrive at your families home. They meet you at the door. You father ask "Can I help you" because he no longer reconizes you. You on the other hand do not reconize any of your family. Your farther and mother are no longer young. Instead they remind you of your grandparents who died during the years that you were gone. Your brothers and sisters are there to meet you too, along with their kids who are getting close to your age when you moved away. When everyone relizes that you are their son, brother, uncle, nephew, cousin then you realize that you were very much missed. There are lots of tears and hugs and kissses. Everyone trys to fill you in on all that has happened in the several years that you've been gone and you try to fill them in on what has happened in your life in those years. The whole time your partner is standing by your side. He has never met these people, he has only heard about them. Finally things settle down and you introduce the person who has loved you for you through all the years that you have been away from your family. You find out that your family likes him very much and eventually grow to love him.

Time passes your family can't believe that so many people make such a big fuss about gay people. Your mother tells you that she doesn't care how many gay kids that she has just as long as she has her kids. Your dad hugs you and say, "You know son don't ever tell you brothers and sisters that I said this, but I always did treat you special, you remind me so much of myself. You love the country life and so do I. I always knew you'd end up in the country raising animals. So when are you boys coming up to spend a week? Oh and you won't be staying in a motel." "Well why don't you come to our place for a few days?" Two months later your family comes to visit and you have a great time but yet you regret the years that you missed together because you left when you finally quit PRETENDING to be someone that you're not.

Like I said when I chose the path that was right for me I finally found happieness and I will never give that away because someone believes that I am capable of changing if I want too. There was a time when believing that the world would hate me if they knew that I would have taken a pill to me straight. I am so happy that I never found that pill because all it took for me to be happy was to accept the fact that I was gay and that was never going to change no matter how much someone wanted me to.

I have never understood why a person (especially someone who seems intelligent) would ever try to convince someone who is gay that they could be straight if they only put their mind to it. Why would they waste their time letting who I love bother them so much? My only reasoning is that they have nothing better to do or that they want bragging rights for being the first person to ever convince a true gay person to be straight. If a gay person turns out to be straight then that person was never gay. Just the same as if a straight person turns gay then that person was never straight. Me being gay is such a smal fraction of who I am. I don't make it a habit Of telling people that I'm gay although if I feel really pressured then I will tell. I have never walked up to a straight man and said, "Are you straight?" Oh you are? Hmmmm you just haven't met the right man yet. I have had straight people ask me if I'm gay and then tell me that I haven't met the right girl yet. Yes, I did meet the right girl once but I was not right for her. I hope that she is very happy in her life now and I hope that she or any other woman never gets involved with a gay man who PRETENDS to be straight so that he may be accepted by his family and friends.

Bob, I am going to go on being gay and I am going to go on being a gay countrysider and I'm going to be happy with or without anyones blessings. And I hope that you are not offended if I decline to look at the web page that you mentioned. I am just to happy with who I am to wasrte my time looking at a web page that I do not need.

Thanks, it is time to go feed the livestock and prepare for the long winter that is ahead of us. My partner and I have some chores that need to be done within the next few days. Hopefully you and your wife are already prepared for the winter. I'm glad that your marriage is now a happy one and I wish that I could tell you that my relationship has always been smooth sailing but it hasn't, after thirteen years together we've had a few arguements that were real doozies but we have learned to take them in stride and keep moving ahead. And to think they said it wouldn't last a week.

To anyone who has read this post. I am sorry that this post is so long. Yes there are gay countrysiders and yess we do get our hands dirty and break out in a sweat and do a lot of cursing. No we do not hire help, we do it all alone, from sawing down trees to splitting wood to bailing hay to putting up fence to growing vegetables. We do not do all these things in a gay sort of way we do them just like everyone else and when we get a major job done we too stand back and pat each other on the back for a job well done.

To all of you who have answered my questions THANKS! I hope that in the future you will share your knowledge with me and that as I gain homesteading knowledge that I am able to share with you.

To Bob and all the others who think that we are bad, I'm sorry that you feel that way, but I can not and will not even think about trying to be someone I'm not again for you. Hopefully someday if you find out that someone you love is gay you will accept them for who they are and not who you wish them to be.

Good night. George

-- george (bngcrview@aol.com), December 04, 2001.