In the September 3, 2001 issue of THE AME CHRISTIAN RECORDER, page 3, There is an article wriiten by the Rev., Dr. Michael C. Carson titled “Interview With Presiding Elder Leonard N. Williams, Sr.” There was an item that dealt with a step that was taken to receive the church’s conference claims. Mrs. Delores L. Kennedy-Williams cooked chicken and the Rev. Leonard Williams delivered the chicken o homes and businesses on foot.

Williams reminds us that we have the responsibility of supporting our connectional church and you have to do whatever you have to do to raise the funds for what we call our “conference claims” to support our connectional church. Still today there are situations where it is impossible to raise the funds directly from the means of the local church and a program has to be devised to raise the money.

There’s the unwritten law, ‘There is more in the (person ) than there is in the land. Recently, I spoke with a AME Pastor who just recently acquired the D. Min Degree, and he recalled having to devise a fund raising program in order to raise the funds to report to the Presiding Elder.

Some years ago, I had a friend who made the statement that he tires of having to come up with ways to trick folk into giving to the Church. He feels like that he’s pimping the church. I pondered on those words.

I had the pleasure of serving under Presiding Elder Williams' later father, the Rev. A Lewis Williams who served as The Presiding Elder of The Clarksville District in the Tennessee Annual Conference. The Rev. Leonard Williams, Sr., would come to Tennessee and on one occasion preached at his father's meetings. We are grateful to GOD for the fruitfulness of the contributions of the Williams family! To GOD Be The Glory!

Be Blessed! WHS

-- Anonymous, November 09, 2001

Answers

At Macedonia AME (Kaufman Texas, we pay the Connectional Claims from our tithes and offerings. We stopped the fund-raising programs, stopped the selling of "fish sandwiches, chicken, etc." We believe that if God does not give it to us through tithes and freewill offerings, we won't get it. And if we don't have it, we can't pay it. Since we adopted this stance we have been able to meet all the needs of the local church, pay all conference claims, save for our building fund, increase the salaries of the pastor and music staff, add an early worship, provide for several ministries in the Kaufman community, and make contributions to the building Funds of other churches. Some may not be able to accept this but it has worked for us at Macedonia AME Church. This is what I believe and teach: If we engage in a fund-raising effort and raise $1000.00. That $1000.00 will purchase exactly $1000.00 worth of goods and services, no more but possibly less if you consider inflation. However, if the people of God make a sacrifical offering of $1000.00 to God's church, there is no limit to the goods and services that that $1000.00 will purchase. Remember the widow's oil and meal that did not run out? Remember the fishes and the loaves, how they were blessed by our Lord and divided among the people? If we as God's people will follow God's plan for support of the church and its ministries, we will never have need to invent ways to "raise" funds to support the needs of the church including Connectional Claims. NOTE: It does not matter whether those claims are legimate or not, God will provide. For example, our General Conference Budget was increased fourfold after the last General Conference, and we had additional monetary responsibilities from the PE District and the Episcopal District. At first we protested, then after much prayer the Lord spoke and said, "You do what you are required to do and I will provide." He's never failed us yet.

Blessings,

Pastor Paris

-- Anonymous, November 09, 2001

Based on my experiences, the conference claims of the church and will be met, 1) when AME pastors begin to instill tithing, not just forced offerings, fundraisers and conference claims. 2) when AME pastors begin to honestly share with the congregations of their churches the true amount of the church's general budget; 3) when AME pastors STOP using the "prasie and worship" hour as a finance/budget meeting; 4) when AME lay members begin to see that their tithes and offerings are being used in the upbuilding of their local church communities as opposed to soley "building up" the connectional church. Tithing does work. I know that we cannot force the members of our churches to tithe, but we can instill the method of tithing. A simple way is by making biblical references to tithing "Bring ye all of the tithes into the storehouse..." We need to teach tithing. We cannot assume that members of our churches understand the concept of tithing. Many people do not understand what 10% of their income means. One of the most successful churches in the City of Chicago, Trinity United Church of Christ, shepherded by Rev. Jeremiah Wright, Jr. teaches the concept of tithing of all of their new members. Members are actually walked through the process of listing their weekly, biweekly and/or monthly incomes and are walked through the process of figuring out what 10% of that figure is. Bishop Cousin of the 4th District is a firm believer of tithing and he stated that while instilling tithing, pastors should encourage members to contribute "10% to God; 10% to themselves and 80% to everyone else (bills, etc.). But this is a concept that must be taught and it should be taught outside of the Sunday worship service. If you want to turn church members off, then bombard the morning worship service with information on money, the need to pay conference claims, the need to pay bills, etc. Save that information for a church conference/church meeting. Send out a mailing to all of the members of the church. Church service is a time set aside for praise and worship, and we often clog that time with information that should be devoted to a business meeting. Again, be honest with the members of the church. Let them know how much money the church owes for the general budget. Be honest about the figures. We need to stop hiding the figures. If you speak with most members of the church, they are totally unaware how much money the church has to pay toward the general budget. Let the members see how the money is used by the general church/Presiding Elder/district. We also need to try a lot harder to designate a portion of our funds for the upbuilding of our local church communities. If you want to turn church members off, then tell them that "...we cannot do this or that because All of the money has to go toward the general budget". People often hold back on their funds. These are just some of the realities of the church. May God bless and keep you all.

-- Anonymous, November 09, 2001

One of the more successful AME churches in the Chicago conference, Dupage AME Church in Lisle, Illinois, has an "automatic draft" method for paying tithes. Members work with the pastor to determine what 10% of their salary is. This figure is then automatically, electronically transferred either directly from their paychecks or directly from their bank accounts. This way, the members are not "forced" to write a check for 10% of their incomes. They do not "see" the money, so they are not put in a position to spend it. The pastor, Rev. James Miller, states that it works. The church raised over $1 million dollars this past conference year. There is also an AME church in Glencoe, Illinois that also uses this service. Both churches are doing well, because in addition to this method, they teach the concept of tithing to their members via classes, and the pastors serve as leaders in the process by paying their tithes themselves.

-- Anonymous, November 09, 2001

I concur with Pastor Paris. As I have posted already, I pastor Mt. Sinai AME Church in rural Bradley, SC. We have a membership of 33 and see approximately 20 per Sunday. Eighty percent of my membership is over 55. When I was appointed to this church in 1999, it was just broken off from a circuit. They worshipped twice a month on the second and fourth Sundays. In January of 2000, we added the first Sundays to our worship. I found a giving pattern that is not tithing but is certainly what the Apostle Paul and I call "cheerful giving." Two Sundays a month, members pay $25, without fuss! (Remember the makeup of my congregation.) We are adding a fellowship hall to our building, so on the other Sunday, members pay $20 towards the building fund. Two people do tithe in the congregation. We still have annual days that are fund raisers but chickens don't have to die and fish don't have to fry. I am just two weeks out of annual conference. I reported that our church raised $44,500 this past conference year!!! That's remarkable for a congregation of our size. We are in position to pay conference claims early and we do. My salary had almost doubled since 1999. We have gone into four Sundays a month in October. We are certainly blessed and highly favored!!!!

Right out of annual conference, we were assessed to give to the Allen University Improvement Fund. We paid our apportionment before the November 17th when the elder asked for us to turn it in.

Budget money is apart of everyday AME life; however, when churches become ministry driven instead of butdget driven, God does provide. Our rural church is a solid example that with a ministry driven focus, budgets are not hard to get. I thank God I serve a congregation who has embraced me as their leader and together, we are meeting every obligation without struggle. It can be done. I'm a witness!!!!

-- Anonymous, November 09, 2001

It is so exciting to see others on the TITHING bandwagon! Praise the Lord!

Blessings,

Pastor Paris

-- Anonymous, November 09, 2001

The tithing bandwagon is minus one dissenter, myself. My principled opposition is not based on selfish desire or niggardly tendiencies but simple OT exegesis. The current "tithing empahasis" in many of our churhes appears to be a relatively new phenomenon. My home church [Isle of Patmos Baptist Church of Wash DC] exhorted parishoners to become tithers in athe early 70s!! When I became an adult I practiced tithing on a regular basis but, my thinking radically changed after I began my own systematic study of the Scriptures. Tithing, as a sacrificial form of offerings to God, finds its origins in the OT and not just the Book of Malachi. Economic conditions in early Palestine were largely defined by hunting, gathering and agricultural activities. Tithing referes to an increase in one's harvested produce and strictly reserved for meeting the economic needs of the Levittical priests, widows, the indigent and strangers, many, who by Mosaic Law, were not eligible for economic inheritance. There are references where the Israelites are exhorted to tithe over several years (see Deut. 26:12-13) yet all we hear in our churches is Mal. 3:9-10. If tithing is so important why is it not mentioned in the Decalougue? Was Jehovah-Jirer so myopic in His prouncements that this all-important technique for giving was left out? Why does the teachings on personal financial sacrifice by Jesus and Paul exclude tithing? In short, tithing, much like circumcision, is an anachronistic method of giving which is rightfully absent in New Testament theology. Its current ressurection may have noble intentions but the results are less-than exemplary.

Regrettably, current emphasis in many of our churches has made the practice of tithing tantamount to financial coercion. Tithing converts are mistakenly taught that stewardship begins and ends with tithing. The work of Kingdom Building is not defined by minimal expectations. However, the end result of tithing is nothing more than an endorsement of the minimalist approach. My giving is not based on some archaic arithmetic rule which superimposes an artificial ceiling or limit. This is not what Jesus teaches about giving in the story of the widow's mite. One of the worst forms of legislation to be "passed" in the 2000 General Conference was the language mandating tithing. The effects of such language reduces our Discipline to read much like a Pharisaic document. If people feel led to tithe that's fine but the accompanying rhetoric which practically vilifies those who don't tithe is counterproductive for Discipleship training. I sometimes wonder in this current zeal for tithing what our churches would look like if equal emphasis was placed on studying the Bible, cultivating meaningful prayer lives, displaying Agape' style love and eschewing social vices like lying, stealing and improper sexual conduct. QED

-- Anonymous, November 10, 2001

Bill,

Make it two of us who feel this way. I could not agree with you more. I simply don't understand how we have come to be so legalistic in our approach to giving to God or to our fellow man.

As you have stated, Tithing was an Old Testament System to support the Priests and the poor. Oftentimes we pay our Priests royally even when many in their own congregations struggle to simply make it from day to day. Many are given salaries, staffed offices, houses, cars and in some instances even jet planes. As a product of an A.M.E. parsonage I know that the converse may also be true. But even so, our Pastors and Stewards agree upon a salary which each of them receives.

Additionally, does God not see what is given to United Appeal, hospitals, hospices, nursing homes, hungry and near naked children, or the beggar on the street as giving to Him? Indeed He does. While I wholeheartedly support my church in all its endeavors, my giving may or may not include multi-million dollar Worship Palaces or Televangelist Broadcasts. It most often also does exceed ten percent of all that I make.

As I see it, legislation which mandates giving is not only counterproductive but also nearly impossible to enforce. New Testament Scripure states,"Freely you have received, freely give." ...."Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver."

-- Anonymous, November 10, 2001

Mr. Matthews and Mr. Dickens (or Rev. Matthews and Rev. Dickens):

Your points are well taken. Most of us who are members of the clergy, seminary trained or not, are aware of the Old Testament vs. New Testament roots of the "concept" of Tithing. No one is saying that tithing is the "gospel". However, to make it plain, if a person who is making $20,000, $30,000 or $40,000 per year committed to giving AT LEAST 10% of their salary to the upbuilding of the Kingdom of God then the giving records would reflect AT LEAST $2,000, $3,000 and $4,000 per year from each of these members. There are some members of churches who make over $100,000 per year, yet when you check their giving record, they have only donated, maybe, $900 - 1,000 per year to the church. Yet, many of those same individuals wear $6,000 fur coats and drive $50,000 automobiles. Yes, yes, God and that individual are the only ones who really know what that person is capable of giving. However, most AME members only hear "give your conference claims" and they get all flustered over giving $50 - $200 per year. I do agree with Bro. Dickens that this "tithing phenomenon" is a new phenomenon within the AME church because when I was in highschool and college and my baptist friends would talk to me about how their churches mandate tithing, I told them that I thought that was just a "baptist" concept. At the time, I was not aware of the biblical (OT) ties of tithing. Maybe a study needs to be conducted. But from what I have personally witnessed and from what my collegues in the ministry have discussed, the act of giving tithes AND offerrings (I guess conference claims can fall in the category of offerrings) works much, much much better than anything else out there. If you can pay your assessments selling chicken dinners and collecting pennies and quarters, fine. Whatever works. It is up to the leadership and the individuals. Whether tithing is mandated in the Discipline is really irrelevant. In the end, it will be the decision of the individual member. Unless you summons the paycheck stubs of your members, rarely will you be able to accuse them of giving less than "10%" of their incomes. You cannot force people to tithe. You cannot force people to give. You cannot force people to pay conference claims.

-- Anonymous, November 10, 2001

My Dear Brothers and Sister,

You are absolutely correct in your understanding of the Bible with regard to the Tithe. Jesus did not teach tithing. He said to the rich youg ruler to put all he had on the alter because he knew his heart and treasure was not with Him. Jesus said that where your treasure is, you can find your heart. So if our hearts are with Christ, we ought not have a problem giving far above the tithe.

I continue to teach the Tithe until my people are mature, then I teach them to go above the tithe as far as they can go; as I myself do. I also teach that if you cannot give FREELY, don't give at all! We will not accept any offering that is given under duress. I stress that so that everyone will GIVE and we RECEIVE the offering we do not TAKE it. The children of the church is a joy to watch during the offering. They just love to give. No wonder Jesus said that we must become like a child to see the kingdom of heaven.

Some will disagree with me on this but I suggest that one who cannot freely give to his/her church may not be truly born again.

Blessings,

Pastor Paris

-- Anonymous, November 10, 2001

I am just currious to know that if any of these churches that receive large amounts of revenues from tithing have any sort of investment plan for the tithe. Do you have an endowment which would allow you to address the spiritual, mental, and physical needs of your members? What happens if one of your members lose their job? Can they get support from their church family? The tithe should be used to spread the word of God and address the other needs of the body of christ. Quite frankly, I have heard more appeals for tithing in the church than I have heard for salvation. It seems like when I was a child, I heard and saw "Repent and and Ye Must be Born Again" everywhere I went.

JazzMan

-- Anonymous, November 12, 2001

JazzMan, Go back and read the disciples prayer, commonly called the Lord's prayer, "Give US THIS day OUR DAILY bread." (emphasis mine) Then remember how God gave the Israelites manna in the wilderness, daily except for the Sabbath. Also you may remember how Jesus said to "give no thought" for the morrow. If God provides for today, will He not provide for tomorrow? What this says is that if we are about our Father's business, investment plans are not necessary. As the thithes and offerings increase, the ministries increase also. For example, a UMC Church in Flordia received a large amount of money from one of its parishoners upon his death. They are using all of the bequest to provide ministries and still depending upon the tithes and offerings of the membership for support of the church and its mission. Study the Word to understand what is our Father's business. The church is not a business. The love of money corrupt many of our leaders: Bishops, Predising Elders, Pastors, and Lay. When ALL of the church tithes and offerings are directed to the ministries of the church and our Father's business the temptations are not as great. I ask you to define "Our Father's Business".

P.S. One of the major problems with the AME Church (I can't speak about other denominations.) is the focus on "economic development" "investment programs using church money" and "get something for nothing programs.

May I ask this question: If the Investment Plan is so good, why don't you use YOUR money to invest? Folk are willing to invest God's money in risky schemes that they would not dare invest thier own.

Blessings,

Pastor Paris

-- Anonymous, November 12, 2001

Bill, Robert, Jazzman, Amen and Amen again to your posts in this thread. Too often we substitute legalisms for the leading of the Holy Spirit. Vernon

-- Anonymous, November 12, 2001

Brother Jazzman:

I believe the subject of this discussion has to do with "suggested" remedies on what Brother Smith termed the "scuffle" of paying the general budget, assessments, conference claims, etc. Some of us have offerred suggested remedies (i.e. enforcing tithes vs. enforcing fundraisers/conference claims or a combination of the two) in solving this "issue" that confronts both pastors and lay members of the AME church, on an annual basis. We are each sharing what "works" or what has worked for us. I don't think this thread has anything to do with endowments or setting up funds for the "additional increases" that you believe "tithing" churches have sitting around in bank accounts. Maybe you can develop a separate thread for that discussion. I think it would be interesting. Blessings.

-- Anonymous, November 13, 2001

I did not suggest "enforcing tithes". We RECEIVE only those offerings that are freely GIVEN. God does not want anyone to feel constrained to give. I am convinced that born-again believers who are not babes in Christ do not have problems with giving. Babes in Christ will have problems with many things including giving. The level of giving is indicative of the level of one's faith. Little faith equals little giving.

Blessings

Pastor Paris

-- Anonymous, November 13, 2001

Jesus gave it all, all to him I owe. The principle of giving is settled forever. The method of giving is what is in question. Giving is done according to context. Tithing is a method, selling chicken dinners is a method, proportionate giving is a method. Mandated methods should not affect your giving. Give as God has prospered you to give. Stan Hearst

-- Anonymous, November 14, 2001

Thanks for the laugh. Selling chichen dinners compared to tithing or freewill giving. Selling chicken dinners is what angered Jesus so much when He cleaned out the Temple.

I enjoyed it, Blessings, Pastor Paris

-- Anonymous, November 14, 2001

I am sorry. I guess the term "enforcing" (with respect to tithes)is a bit harsh. Thanks for the correction. God Bless. AJ

-- Anonymous, November 14, 2001