We've had goats since 1995, and this past week lost our 2 1/2 year old big, strong and muscular Nubian Buck ("Merlin") to an unknown ailment. Nevertheless, we would still like help with diagnosis of what he might have had -- and if you have any thoughts or recommendations to prevent a repeat. Merlin's lungs were clear, no fever, no diarrhea, urination normal. Always friendly, and very enthused about breeding. Here are his symptoms -- day-by-day . . . . SATURDAY AFTERNOON: Merlin seemed listless, just standing around, totally out of character for him. We decided to separate him. He was NOT run-down nor had he been "wasting" at all. His appetite had been fine. We gave him a shot of Exonel and some ProBios. We kept giving him Exonel twice a day. SUNDAY MORNING: He was standing around, his legs seemed "stiff" -- not walking right at all, almost like some severe arthritis set in. By SUNDAY AFTERNOON (after church) we found him in a corner of the pen, with his back legs "down" (like he was "squatting") and his front legs very straight & stiff. His head was pointing up, like he was "stargazing." (But, other listeriosis symptoms do not fit.) We got him laid down -- for comfort -- and he never got up again. He had not been eating, but was continuing to urinate and his feces were perfectly normal -- and remained so to the very end. He had no fever. We started giving him water with a baster, later added Karo Syrup; also make a pureed liquid with Calf Manna, a little water and Karo Syrup. He would take that fine with a baster. MONDAY MORNING: We decided maybe he had White Muscle Disease (we live in Selenium deficient area), got some BoSe and Vitamin B from the vet. By Monday night he had not improved. We wrote up all the symptoms and took them to our Rock Valley, Iowa vet ("Cory") and he came out on Tuesday a.m. TUESDAY: Cory didn't know what Merlin had, ruled out things out like tentanus, listeriosis, etc. Thought it might be some kind of Central Nervous System disorder, but didn't know what. Cory did give Merlin some intravenous medications on Tuesday, but we don't know what they were (I wasn't there, my husband is the only one who has talked to Cory, and Joe either forgets or won't ask Cory what he gave Merlin.) Whatever he gave Merlin, Cory said that he would give it 24 hours to see any results. On Tuesday evening, Merlin seemed better. We kept giving him the water, Karo Syrup, Calf Manna mixtures through the baster. We would sit Merlin up, he would "wag" his tail. His legs were not so stiff, he could move them a little. Merlin was actually trying to stand up -- but he couldn't. We thought maybe he would be better in the morning ("after a good night's rest!") (Throughout these days, we would rub Merlin's rumen/left side and turn him so that he would "burp" and not get bloated because he was just laying around.) WEDNESDAY MORNING: Merlin seemed worse, wouldn't take the liquid or liquid food through the baster. Again, we were not there when Cory came out, but Cory went ahead and put Merlin to sleep. Cory said that he "debated" a little about doing it, but it just didn't seem like Merlin was going to pull out of it. Merlin was big and strong and had a strong heart, so he might have gone on like this for a while. We do not want any of our animals to suffer, but we sure feel bad about this. Merlin was a good guy! Cory said he wondered if Merlin had some sort of spinal injury, but he could not see anything wrong with Merlin's spine. Cory said that he just could not see anything that we could have/ should have done, or anything we did that caused this. So, if anybody has any thoughts about this, or questions, we would like to hear them. We've 10-20 goats for the past 6-7 years, and have never seen anything like this. It's scary, and we don't want it to happen again, if possible. THANKS much! Melissa O'Rourke Rock Valley, Iowa

-- Melissa O'Rourke (drycreekacres@hotmail.com), November 08, 2001

Answers

According to my vet books it sounds like White Muscle Disease or Entotoxemia, but I am not expert, in fact far it. Good Luck

-- Chandler (providencefarms2001@yahoo.com), November 08, 2001.

Polioencephalomacia. A four or five day course of thiamine (along with good nursing) would have probably given Merlin another 10 years of life.

-- (goatwise@noname.com), November 08, 2001.

Not sure what the problem was but here are some suggestions .Do they have loose minerals ? If not I believe loose { horse?} minerals are ok for them .This will also help with selenium problems.How about poisonous plants in pasture or hay ? I will be interested in hearing what Vicki has to say .It's hard to loose any animal , it sounds as you did all you could.

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), November 08, 2001.

Did your vet rule out Rabies? Is it endemic in your area? I know the only way to test is to send the head for diagnosis and if there was any possibility, you and any others in contact should get the vaccines as soon as you can.

-- Kate henderson (kate@sheepyvalley.com), November 08, 2001.

Hi Melissa, so sorry about Merlin. Hard to write advice like this without my opinonated self coming out but... Do you have white tail deer on your property or do they have acess to the property your hay comes from? Do you vaccinate for enterotoxemia? The CD part of the CD&T shots? How much B and what form did you give him? I agree that it does sound like thiamin defficency, you have to give alot of Thiamin, and every 6/12 hours and for several days, if using B complex it is 15cc per 100 pounds! just to get enough of the B you need. I am very sorry you didn't email me before, I have posted the goatworld.com 911 site alot, so much so that folks write me to ask me if it is mine, which it is not. He perked up after the vet Iv'ed him because he was dehydrated. You can't turkey baste enough fluids into a 200+ animal. Just sit down with a gallon of water and see how many syringes or basters that is (100?) You have to react quickly to a goat down, especially when they are large like this. With a vet who obviously doesn't know goats, I would think you would ask for help here a week ago. When you loose a strong and healthy goat it is something seriously wrong, disease, management, nutrition, a necropsy should have been used to answer all these unanswered questions, the loss of another animal next week, would have paid for the necropsy. You can't rule out Listerosis if you are feeding new hay, especially if the buck is in a smaller pen than the does with alot less forage to eat. Goats also don't present the same way as cows or horses. The loss of elderly, weak or young stock isn't the warning signal the loss of a nearly 3 year old buck is! After the fact this is going to be alot tougher, there are lots of goat clubs and goat owners in your area listed in the ADGA directory. How about paying a vet (call the local University or your State vet and see which small ruminent specialist is in your area) or a breeder who specializes in your breed to come to the farm, go over your grain, minerals, hay (was it new?) have an analysis of it ran. Do you feed to much molassas in your grain to where his rumen was sluggish? This could account to why his rumen wasn't producing the normal B vitamins. Do other producers in your area have problems with menengial worm? Does he share a pen with anybody that could have hurt him? I have friends who we visit each others places, pointing out this or that, like moving water buckets before kids are born so they don't drown, or "Vicki that cord is to close to the baby pen, they could chew on it" things I wouldn't normally see. I think as we have goats longer we tend to overlook the horse and start looking for zebra's. I wouldn't be looking at anything exotic with your buck, just something you missed. With your vet visiting while you weren't there twice, and also putting him down without you around, I would say something is being overlooked. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh Texas (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), November 08, 2001.

I searched the 911 site for a friend a few weeks back. He said his doe was down and looking at the sky. After searching in the database for symtoms, I learned they call it stargazing. I called him and told him to get a shot of thiamine from the vet, expensive, but that's what she needed, along with the vitimins and the rest of the treatment. Don't know why just that one doe was affected, none of the others showed any signs. Anyway, he didn't get to her in time, and she didn't make it, but I did learn allot trying to help him.

-- Cindy in KY (solidrockranch@msn.com), November 09, 2001.

Thank you very much to everyone for your thoughts and advice. At least if something like this happens again, we will have some idea of what to do. Of course we are upset about losing Merlin, and now we know it is all our fault for not getting the right advice. We really have not had any significant health problems among our goats since we started raising goats in 1995. We just try to do everything that we're supposed to do in regard to feed, water, minerals, vaccinations and housing, and I guess that we have had pretty good luck -- until now. Merlin's condition was so sudden and shocking to us, we thought that calling the veterinarian was the best thing we could do. We both work fulltime and could not take vacation time to stay home and wait for the vet. No vet around here is really into goats, or even sheep. It's all beef and dairy cattle and hogs. So, if something like this happens again we'll try to get advice from a place like this. Thanks again. Melissa O'Rourke Rock Valley, Iowa

-- Melissa O'Rourke (DryCreekAcres@hotmail.com), November 09, 2001.

Don't beat yourself up over this. We all have made decisions that later on are learning experiences. Sad to say, I have buried some of my own over the years. Thats what this forum is all about....helping each other learning all the aspects of homesteading.You did what you thought was the right decision, calling a vet. Many folks don't even go that route.

-- Kate henderson (kate@sheepyvalley.com), November 09, 2001.

Melissa, I am so sorry to hear about Merlin. It is always a blow to your heart to lose one of your animals. Please do not be so hard on yourself. I have cried over several of my beloved goats and wondered if I couldn't have done something better or smarter or faster. There are so many unsolved mysterys when raising any pet or livestock. You do the best you can and try to learn from experience. I work full time too and even when I was goat manager and took care of the "critters" full time there would be times when they would eat something poison and come down from the hillside and die at my feet! You have healthy goats so you know it was some kind of lousy circumstances that caused poor Merlin to get sick.

-- Karen in Kansas (kansasgoats@iwon.com), November 09, 2001.