My son was over watching football with me today and as I peeked over at him I was overcome with how much that I love him!!! Quite naturaly, being the guy that I am, I didn't express myself and let him know. Ha! Thats the question, why is it so hard sometimes to tell your children that you love them? I say it with ease to everyone else. Is this a guy thing? My father never ever told me. Maybe it just got passed down.

Anyway I've got to look at that. I heard myself saying the other day that the words don't matter because they know that I love them but thats a copout isn't it? Its important to hear don't you think?

I know this is 90% women on the forum but does anyone else have this problem or some thoughts on it? How about your fathers did they have a hard time with those I love you's?........Kirk

-- Anonymous, October 28, 2001

Answers

OH KIRK, I LOVE YOU!

-- Anonymous, October 29, 2001

Kirk, A friend sent me this this morning. It reminded me of a conversation that we had along time ago. I liked it alot, thought you would too.

: A Blessing The man whispered, "God, speak to me" and a meadowlark sang. But, the man did not hear. . So the man yelled, "God, speak to me" and the thunder rolled across the sky. But, the man did not listen. . The man looked around and said, "God let me see you." And a star shined brightly. But the man did not see. . And, the man shouted, "God show me a miracle." And, a life was born. But, the man did not notice. . So, the man cried out in despair, "Touch me God, and let me know you are here." Whereupon, God reached down and touched the man. But, the man brushed the butterfly away .. and walked on. . I found this to be a great reminder that God is always around us in the little and simple things that we take for granted ... even in our electronic age .. so I would like to add one more: The man cried, "God, I need your help!" And an e-mail arrived reaching out with good news and encouragement. But, the man deleted it and continued crying .. . Don't miss out on a blessing because it isn't packaged the way that you expect. My instructions were to send this to people that I wanted God to bless and I picked you. Please pass this to people you want to be blessed. Expect the unexpected... Have A Happy Day!

-- Anonymous, October 29, 2001

Gee Whiz, Kirk, with your warm heart and sensitive nature, I guess I'm kinda suprised you have a tough time sayin I LOVE YOU! I would've imagined you sayin it all over the place! Well, since I'm not a guy, maybe I'm speakin out of turn here, but sounds to me like another damn hurtful result of sexism in our culture. Certainly there are women who can't say those words easily either, but they're a lot fewer and far between.

You did mist up my eyes when you described looking at your son; I find myself doing this all the time with my girls! I just look at them in amazement, even after all these years. I sometimes still cannot believe how I got so lucky, that these beautiful, loving, brilliant, funny people are my children. Thank God I have no problem telling them how I feel; I think I'd fairly burst if I couldnt tell em I love em pretty much every day.

I suggest you try it;I betcha he'd be thrilled, even if he doesnt show it.....and you'd never have to regret not trying.

Love you, Kirk....{BIG HUG}

-- Anonymous, October 29, 2001

Yep, same thing happens to me, Kirk. I can say 'I love you' to my three year old son, but am not sure I will continue when he gets older. Don't know why I have the feeling, only time will tell.

My own father never told me that he loved me. I knew that he did; I just never heard it verbally. He didn't say it, but every action he did to or for me told me that. Nothing but good thoughts for the man, my regret is that he never had a chance to meet my son (Dad has been gone for four years now). Good question.

-- Anonymous, October 29, 2001

I know that feeling well, Kirk. As I watch my 28 yr. old son working in our garage business with his dad, repairing vehicles, discussing options, etc. it take alot of effort on my part to hold back the tears of love...for both of them! I do regret that while my son was growing up I didn't tell him how much I loved him more often. Probably didn't tell him enough!! Funny...though, now I tell my granddaughter quite often how much I love her (trying to make up for not telling my son, I guess!) As I was growing up, I don't remember my folks telling me or my sisters and brothers that they loved us. But, my father was an alcoholic and us girls had to do all we could to stay away from him after he'd spent an afternoon at the local bar...he'd get "overly friendly". My mom was strangely absent most of the time. Very uncomfortable childhood!! So, I probably didn't learn how to express my feelings as well as I should have. No, I really don't think that not being able to express yourself is just a "guy thing", Kirk. I think you do a damn good job of :-)!!!

-- Anonymous, October 29, 2001

Being of German-American descent, and being raised Lutheran (think Garrison Keillor here and all those Lutheran jokes folks :-) ), my family USED to be reluctant to openly say, "I love you", but no longer. A few very near brushes with death made most of the family remember that life is so very dear and transient.

Now every conversation, whether on the phone or in person, with my 60+ year old parents is closed with a heartfelt "I love you". Life is short, and you can never let someone know too often how much they mean to you.

"I love you" costs nothing, but means so much.

-- Anonymous, October 29, 2001

I guess I don't have any particular advice to Kirk except to do what he feels is right and appropriate, however now its my turn to play devils advocate a little with EM.

You equated Kirks "shyness" as indication of more sexist conditioning or something like that and I'll admit it COULD be. On the other hand tho could it be that men are naturally more reticent and reserved or perhaps its not even a gender thing necessarily but more of an individual thing?

My dad was an affectionate person, given to little one armed hugs, mussing up the hair and stuff like that and even ocassionally saying I love you.

As for myself as a father I was quite reserved, not distant or disinterested, just reserved, but I had a strong connection with my son and we both knew it. His mother was much more voluable and demonstrative. I was quieter and less animated but the connection was still there. To this day thats the way I am and I don't feel any lacking as a result of it nor does my wife as far as I know.

So, I guess what I'm saying is my dad was quite different than me in terms of being more demonstrative thus the sexist conditioning doesn't seem to quite apply as he would naturally be my primary male role model.

-- Anonymous, October 29, 2001

My father was very demonstrative of his love for us with frequent hugs and "I love yous" to both myself and my brothers. My mother on the other hand was that. Where does that fit in with the "sexual conditioning"????

-- Anonymous, October 30, 2001

In my opinion,who's to say. Demonstration of affection can be a good thing but it can also be a meaningless ritual.I grew up in a family of 3 sons and no daughters. My mother did the traditional things concerning affection but all I remember getting from my father was a handshake, but oh what a handshake. I can't imagine feeling anymore love than that which he gave me in so many ways. Wow tears, and he's been gone for about 15 long years. To me it's kinda like prayer. Some feel you have to raise up your voice for all to hear but i'm of the notion that a silent prayer can be just as meaningful to those involved. So, visible signs of affection a geat thing, yes. Necessary? I don't think so. Lotsa luv hugs and kissed. jz

-- Anonymous, October 30, 2001

Its always so wonderful (to me anyway) to hear of fathers who show affection for their kids, espcecially to their sons, and I'm happy to hear some here. There are many such anecdotes, of course, but since I was speaking of the broad culture, I am assuming, however, that no one is actually attempting to DENY that men are inculturated to be less demonstrative than women?? That would be beyond comprehension to me, since it seems so evident.

Curious to know what this means: 'nothing but a handshake, but oh what a handshake'? This is difficult for me to process, unless its that since it was the only thing you got, it meant alot?

John, do you know why you were 'reserved' and just what that means? You make a point to distinguish between reserved and disinterested/distant, and I understand that distinction, but to me reserved has always indicated fear of some kind, fear of opening up.

Now I realize not everyone likes to wear their hearts on their sleeves like I do, especially on the internet, so you can all tell me to go to Blazes if you want, but it is my nature to inquire, cuz you know what they say about inquiring minds.

I personally wouldn't want to live in a community of people who cannot, or will not show affection. I need warm, loving and open people around me, and with the exception of my partner (arrgghh), that is who I spend my time with.

Its funny I've been actually giving this subject alot of thought lately, cuz of the unschoolers my kids' community is composed of, and how totally different it is then most others, and certainly opposite of MY experience as a teenager!! We had a couple schooled kids at the bash this year, and one of em came up to me after it was over and had the most fabulous observation. He said that he has gone to many many parties during his high school years, and every one of them had this in common: most everyone spends all their energy trying to protect themselves from each other, and from their own inner selves. Sometimes it's by drinking, or drugs, or putting on a facade in any number of ways, but that was the predominate feeling he had. At the unschoolers party, he watched these young people, who come from all sorts of homes from all over North America, all try to find ways to OPEN themselves up, both to themselves and to each other. I just thought that was so beautiful,and Iknow its true. When I first started meeting these kids, I was a bit taken aback by how physically demonstrative they all are, I must admit. It was weird. They walk down the country roads, arm in arm, they sleep together in a big pile, they play deep psychological games that force them to face (literally, in their faces) their fears and anger, and all the while, they are supporting each other, hugging and comforting and stroking both physically and verbally each other.....they have invited me to sit and listen/participate, and its a verrryyy moving experience. Their love is evident and undeniable, and it makes me weep with hope for the future, at such a time when we could all live with such love.

So I guess I mean, whatever makes you happy of course, but to me, people need each other's unconditional love, and I personally think there's way too little of it CLEARLY shown, most especially to children.

-- Anonymous, October 31, 2001

I guess EM, I would have to ask.........whose culturing are you speaking of??? The United States is so full of cultures and mini- cultures that can vary from one location to another. Painting with a broad brush again?? WASP culture might be the one that gets the most attention, but it doesn't necessarily mean it is the biggest.

-- Anonymous, October 31, 2001

Ok, Diane, I'll bite.......I'm a tad nervous now, when I see the term 'broad brush' since it evokes some sad memories on this board of a few months ago....... trusting we all support each other in our discussions of ideas and opinions and experiences......

What IS the 'biggest' culture then?

And can you tell me about all these little mini-cultures we have in this country? I'd love to hear about them. What I see, and I am in constant contact with the mainstream, is pretty much the elimination or at least dilution of other cultural models very soon after they arrive. Our culture is a media and educational institution -driven culture as I see it, and as such has become very homogenous, has it not? Certainly there are ethnically-derived behavioural differences in child-raising techniques for instance, but for the most part we as The American Culture behave rather like we are instructed to by those subtle voices of our institutions.

In our defense, there are many other 'cultures' where sexism rules the day, and the 'feminine' values like nurturance are kept at arms length by males. Its an interesting study of values; I did a report on this very subject of cultural norms throughout the world in college in a women's studies class in LA. Carried to its bizarre extreme we have today the example of the almost unbelievable Taliban.

Peace,

-- Anonymous, October 31, 2001

I guess I should have said the biggest in all locations. As far as dominance and visibility; the WASP culture would win hands down. In my particular area the WASP culture would be in the minority, even though they apparently dominate. Sorry I used the "broad brush" term. Certainly didn't mean to push any buttons or make you feel insecure. My difficulty in using the appropriate words keeps me from taking up an opposing view in many circumstances, and I frequently feel that by not posting my view that I am taken as agreeing when I most definately am not. In the broader scheme of things my opinion is only a tiny grain of sand so I remain silent. peace

-- Anonymous, October 31, 2001

EM: You say "John, do you know why you were 'reserved' and just what that means? You make a point to distinguish between reserved and disinterested/distant, and I understand that distinction, but to me reserved has always indicated fear of some kind, fear of opening up."

To me being reserved doesn't mean holding back necessarily or being "unreal". It does mean giving thot and consideration to speaking and acting before speaking and acting. It also has to do with being true to ones self IMO. I don't equate emotions to self.

I place alot of value on objectivity and that causes me to be distrustful of emotions because they're often inimical to objectivity and I consider them to be conditioned responses, almost mechanical in nature. Generally I'm pretty aware of whatever emotion I may be feeling but try to act rationally, sometimes contrary to what the emotion would have me "do", in service of a higher ideal I like to think. Giving free reign to my emotions has rarely served me well. But on the other hand, sometimes, when the situation calls for it, and some benefit would come to another by my giving expression to emotions, I will, but usually in a more diluted fashion.

I'm actually a fairly sensitive guy and can sometimes sense when another is hurting. Inside I can turn to mush almost instantly but I see no value in acting on that. Instead I prefer to be compassionate in a more low key way, simply indicating that I understand and making myself available to another.

Sometimes the sensitivity picks things up from other people and I don't know what to do with it so I do nothing except to try to act lovingly. In that case the reservedness comes from lack of confidence and self doubt. I often question my wisdom or lack thereof.

I remember when my son was very young, a toddler. I would never do the goo-goo, gaa-gaa thing and play with him the in same way my wife would. She took it as a sign that I didn't love him and nothing could be further from the truth. My style was simply different and my son and I both felt the connection between us and thats the goal IMO---to have the connection---and I personally think its systemically impossible to have the connection without love.

-- Anonymous, November 01, 2001

John I guess sometimes I wonder if people need to hear it spoken. Its a sad thing to have a parent die and realize that they never once told you that they loved you. Even if they know that love was shared between them it still really seems to make it REAL when you hear it.

My son knows how deeply I love him but I just can't figure out why its so hard to say those words to him. I've ask that question to other people and they quickly change the subject! Ha! I seem to be not alone in this area!!

One other thing. Every once in a while I get this JOLT where I just have this deep experience of love for someone. Its a shame when this can't be expressed and it just withers and dies inside me! A gift that should be shared? I guess I'm a little afraid if I don't say something I'll stop getting these experiences.....Kirk

-- Anonymous, November 01, 2001

I don't know, but it SEEMS to me that it could be fear -- of rejection, of embarassing the other person, of whatever. I think it is for me. To some people I have absolutely no trouble saying "I love you", and all of them are people I know will "take it well". If I am uncertain of my reception, I'm likely to just not say it, even though I feel it. For what that's worth . . . .

And getting comfortable with something takes practice, I guess (if you're uncomfortable in the first place). Hugging people is something I haven't been comfortable with in the past. Then I started hanging around with people who hug all the time. I got used to it, and it usually isn't an uncomfortable situation any more, even with strangers. Look out, Kirk, when [if] I meet you, I'll be giving you a hug! ;-)

-- Anonymous, November 01, 2001

Hey, now huggin is something I have no problem with!!! Ha.....Kirk

-- Anonymous, November 01, 2001

'nothing but a handshake, but oh what a handshake.' Well EM I meant to say that to me, a physical show of affection has only the significance that ones heart gives it. If I say that I wouldn't trade one of my fathers handshakes for all the hugs and kisses in the world, that is because I know that was his way of expressing what his heart felt, and believe me it was some heart. I see no reason to judge our display of affection according to gender or cultural standards as to whose is better. Ever watch national geographic channel and how ridiculous some of 'those' people act. Whose to say. I'll bet they feel everybit as much love as we do and it's just as valid whether they express it through rubbing noses or whatever. I guess I have overcome my cultural conditioning as I am quite a hugger now but with my best friend,whom I dearly love, it's still just a handshake,.....and I still wouldn't trade that handshake for all the hugs. peace jz

-- Anonymous, November 06, 2001