Their is an american myth that if you work hard you might make it to the top. My experience was that if you work hard you can usually stay where you are. To make it to the top, you usually have to be born with it and/or know somebody important. (Example: President of the U.S.) Getting to the top by just doing the hard work is the exception. What's been your experience?

-- fred (fred@mddc.com), October 26, 2001

Answers

I know several self-made millionaires who weren't born into money and didn't 'know' anybody. They worked at their professions and invested wisely.

-- ~Rogo (rogo2020@yahoo.com), October 26, 2001.

It is according to what your definition of top is. Daryll

-- Daryll in NW FLA (twincrk@hotmail.com), October 26, 2001.

While I believe there is a lot of truth to the saying "it's not what you know, it's who you know", it's been my experience that if you work hard for 8-10 hours a day you can become a boss and work hard for 12-16 hours a day.

-- Dave (dbelanger@tds.net), October 26, 2001.

Yep Dave agree 100%,we own our company and in return Scott works from sun up to sun down almost 7 days a week plus blue prints are drawn at night,clients met after dark,and weekends are shot. I can say tho he could never work for anyone and like it so its the only way for us.

-- renee oneill{md.} (oneillsr@home.com), October 26, 2001.

Timing and risk is also a big part of making it to the top. I know someone who took the risk and started an ISP 12 years ago by maxing out a visa card. He start slow, worked hard. Now he sold the business to a larger company, make themself enough money to retired on. Not bad for a 35 year old. I am not talking about the paper rich dot-commers, but someone who worked for what he got. He took the risk of maxing out his cards for somthing that was very risky in the late 80/early 90's. He had the right timing. ISP were still few in numbers in many areas. He was competing against prodgy, compuserve, AOL and other large corporations. Today he couldnt do what he did without several hundred thousand dollars of capitol just to start.

-- gary (gws@redbird.net), October 26, 2001.

Take a look at the book "The Millionare Next Door". Many rich people are more like us than you would think. They accumulated their money by hard work and frugal living.

-- Sherri C (CeltiaSkye@aol.com), October 26, 2001.

Garrison Keilor said it for me:

"Some luck lies in not getting what you thought you wanted but getting what you have, which -- once you have got it -- you may be smart enough to see is what you would have wanted had you known."

Happy in the Arkansas Ozarks,

Vern M.

-- Vern M. (modeland@runningriver.com), October 26, 2001.

Sherri is right. Most wealthy people live right next door to you or may be even more frugal than you are. Several of my dad's relatives are very wealthy, you would never know it. They worked very hard and were very frugal and had some very good ideas. I think most people confuse wealthy with affluent. Wealthy people save their money, affluent people spend what money they do have so that other people think that they are rich. Some of these people are very far in debt just so that they can fool themselves and others. Vicki

-- vicki in NW OH (thga76@aol.com), October 26, 2001.

I've seen it work both ways mentioned above. The 'self made' millionaires I am aware of took the most risks and worked very long hours to get what they have. Some took too many risks, took some short cuts and ended up in the pen.

I kinda feel sorry for the rich, in a way. To work that hard and / or inherit the money, just to have everybody and their grandmother trying to get their greedy little hands on it . . . that is no way to enjoy life, in my honest opinion. Too much paranoia. Wouldn't mind trading places for a month or so either.

My definition of rich is being healthy and at ease with yourself, your family, and the world in general.

-- j.r. guerra (jrguerra@boultinghousesimpson.com), October 26, 2001.

people who whine about things being unfair never make it anywhere.

-- Dave (something@somewhere.com), October 26, 2001.

You're right that if you just work hard you're probably not going to make it to the top (however you define "top"). You also have to work smart too.

Work hard and smart and you'll be a success in anything you choose to do. It might take education, it may take experience, sometimes all it takes is just an idea coming to you at the right time.

={(Oak)-

-- Live Oak (oneliveoak@yahoo.com), October 26, 2001.

I think it depends on the person, and the position you're starting out. I don't think Bill Gates would be as successful (by the world's standards) as he is if he was a programmer who worked for an IBM or a SUN type of company.

Working hard for 8 or 10 hours a day in a cube *MAY* get you to a supervisor position or a 1st level manager. Seems to me that the harder you work, the more valuable you are where you're at, so they keep you there. However, if your manager isn't thrilled with your performance / personality / attitude, he's more likely to let you do an internal transfer / promotion to get you off of his budget, and before you know it, you're on the fast track to being a pointy haired boss. Saw it happen more than once where I work...the level of the promotion is logarithmically proportional to the level of ineptness.

-- Eric in TN (eric_m_stone@yahoo.com), October 26, 2001.

My grandfather was a poor man until the day he died, but most of my family is now comfortably middle class. They did it by hard work, carefull thought, and education.

One good way to prosperity is to decide which careers will have the most unfilled demand in the future, decide which of these careers you would prefer, and go for it.

The following is a few ways that my family has gotten through school. 1. The GI bill. This can be hazardous to your health, as can the modern day equivalent. 2. "If you send me money on a regular basis while I am in school, I will do the same for you after I graduate so you can go to school also" This has all of the risks of borrowing from your family, but it worked out OK for a couple of my great uncles. 3. Night school. Take the general ed requirements first so that the technical classes are not out of date by the time that you finish. If you work hard and take classes in the summer you can expect to finish one years classes in two years time. Teleclasses are a plus for you because you don't have to wast time commuting. You can fit the classes into your schedule more easily. 4. Stay with family and chip in forfood and utilities. Your money will go farther if you don't pay rent. 5. Take as many jobs as you can during the summer and make enough to support yourself during the winter. My husband did this: He lived at home during the summer while working a day job, an evening job, and a weekend job. (this was before we are married.) He also had a nest egg saved up before he started, and his mother had already told him that he could borrow $1000 from her if he needed to.

Most of those who didn't go to college were carefull with their money, so that they could buy a house. A house is usefull in your old age. You can live in it, sell it, mortgage it, or pass it on to your family as an inheritance.

My advice to anyone who is ambitious is to take stock of themselves first and take a long, hard look at what their strengths and weaknesses are, then at society as a whole and determine the best way to use your skills and abilities.

-- (hooperterri@prodigy.net), October 26, 2001.

This seems like a pretty strange thread for a countryside forum.....who wants to make it to the top anyway??? For what??? I prefer to stay away from the rat race myself!

-- ugly (here@home.com), October 26, 2001.

I have had the experience of working for several"self made millionairs, and the common threads have been 1) being at the right place at the right time and recognizing it. 2) being bold enough to do what it took no matter what friends and family thought. 3) and unfortunatly bending every rule till it nearly snapped. About point number 3, I wouldn't call them crooks but the smart people kept one hand on thier wallet while dealing with them. Oh! yes one other major point. Hire labor at the absolute lowest cost possible and work them to death, always another coming down the street to take thier place. I for one have no desire to "make to the top" US style, I will go to the grave with a clean conscience and my pantry full.

-- Del (dgrinolds@gvtel.com), October 26, 2001.

At the risk of tooting my own horn, I will give my opinion and how I got to where I am. I started in the federal government at a GS-3 Clerk-stenographer with a high school education. (Grades in the federal government go from GS-1 to GS-15 and then there is the Senior Executive Service and those positions are very few). I am currently a GS-15 Human Resource Manager. During my career, I worked full time and went to college. It took me seven years to get my degree (I paid for it all myself). I worked hard but I also worked smart. I not only did my job but I looked around and saw other things that needed to be done and volunteered to do them. Every time my supervisors asked for volunteers to do something I always volunteered. This not only got the attention and appreciation of my superiors but it allowed me to learn new skills and more about the work performed in my organization. Some people may say that is being a kiss-A. But to me it was making myself invaluable to my supervisors. Common sense says if an organization has to cut back, who will they cut? The person who does a good job, but only their job, or the person that not only does a good job but goes the extra mile to do more than their job. I did not sleep with any of my superiors to get where I am today, in fact, I didn't even socialize with them in my personal life. But, I worked hard AND smart. I had no connections to help me get where I am. I had to do it on my own. I still have seven more years to go until I am eligible for retirement and I sometimes think that maybe I will try for one of the Senior Executive Service positions and then I talk myself out of it because that will mean a lot more commitment of my personal time than I am willing to commit. I work a forty hour week now and I am no longer as driven to achieve success as I once was because I have already achieved more than I expected to in my career. I have always balanced my personal life and my career and now I am just looking forward to my retirement when I can enjoy all of the homesteading things I love to do full time instead of part time. If there is any advice I would give on this topic it is don't just do your job well, take on additional work to help the organization. It was a strategy that worked for me.

-- Colleen (pyramidgreatdanes@erols.com), October 26, 2001.

its not what you make ,its what you save. plain and simple.

-- paul a coleman (wormfarmerone@yahoo.com), October 26, 2001.

What other people would call the top- I would call the bottom. Why anyone would want to be rich I just can't figure out! Rich people are no happier than I am. Rich people aren't loved more than I am. Rich people have a heck of a lot more problems than I ever will. I don't need to be rich to be at the top-I'm already there!

-- debra in ks (windfish@toto.net), October 26, 2001.

I was sort of sad to here someone think that you can't get ahead unless you have connections. I work a business from home and I am making some good money away from my nursing profession which I work less and less at each month., I know for a fact that there are many self made millionaires in this cosmetic company who started way below the bottom !! Guess it is just how badly you want something. Sure...some of us don't want to be where others are...if that is what having money means...but you sure can do a lot more good with money than without it for yourself and or others !! Guess having this kind of home based business sounds strange since we do homestead and have for over 20 years. But....I do what I enjoy at home and enjoy what I do away from home too....guess that is what you could call richin a sense too. But...it's all in the right attitude. Just get out there and figure a way to reach your "top". Maany people have done it and I'm sure youcan too !! Good Luck !!

-- Helena (windyacs@npacc.net), October 26, 2001.

iam at the top ihave a good wife 6 good kids warm house good coon dog 12 chickins 5 rabbets what more would i want

terry

-- terry (bluetck56@aol.com), October 26, 2001.

always rember room at the top of the ladder is made by someone who fell off. Bob se,ks.

-- Bobco (bobco@kans.com), October 26, 2001.

I'm betting that Colleen lives in a metro area. My experience with government jobs was that if you work in an urban area, you can get ahead. If you work in a rural government office, forget it, unless you're the right color, right sex, etc. etc. You can work your fingers to the bone and nothing much changes unless you get lucky or know the right people.

-- Harold Washman (harold672@aol.com), October 26, 2001.

Live Oak beat me to the work hard and work smart bit. Just working hard don't get ya nowheres...like that country song with the words "when ya work yer fingers to the bone, whaddya get? Bony fingers!"

I've worked in a few places, couple of big corporations, and if you want to get anywhere there you need to a) work hard and KNOW your job and b) learn how to play office politics. Not necessarily the stab-your-coworker-in-the-back kind, but not being afraid to speak up now and again and get yourself known. Sit down at the cafeteria and smile at the know-it-alls, socialize a bit.

Sometimes it takes a lot of sacrifice to get into the position you want. Sure, hard work, drive and ambition will get you there. But there are some instances where purely bad luck has knocked people down the ladder. Misfortunes in health, accidents, family emergencies, etc. We don't hear about the many ..... (I don't want to use the failures here when the circumstances knocking someone down were just totally out of their control), we hear about the guys who did make it to the top. I firmly believe that luck does factor in, albeit to a minor degree in most instances.

So, what's my experience? I'm now working for the toughest boss there is--my PARENTS. Managing their campground. A LOT of hard work maintaining the place. But it has its rewards. At least I'm not having to put on the Miss Perky Merry Sunshine routine as someone's secretary, having to know everything and keeping their butts covered while they make 3 times the pay you do. To some extent I'm my own boss. Not the greatest pay, but I can make a lot of the decisions myself.

-Chelsea

-- Chelsea (rmbehr@istar.ca), October 26, 2001.

Even if you win the rat race, you are still a rat.

-- Leo (wintersongfarm@yahoo.com), October 27, 2001.

Boy do we complain or what ??? Maybe we all should just be Thankful that we can work and support and feed our famlies. Let's count our blessings !!

-- Helena (windyacs@npacc.net), October 27, 2001.

I really agree with dave!!! Personally the best thing we ever did was to STOP scrambling for power and enjoy being peasants. My life has been quite wonderful ever since. I do believe that it is still possible to go from "rags to riches", just really don't want to do it.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), October 27, 2001.

I agree with those who questioned the generally accepted definition of "the top." Why would anyone want to be President of the US? Talk about a high-stress job! Wanna have to have a bodyguard for the rest of your life? No thanks. I would far rather be free, anonymous, and self-sufficient.

I have seen people filthy rich, financially, who were actually dirt poor, spiritually. Fighting tooth and nail to get to the top financially, stunts the inner person. The way up spiritually is actually the low road, politically. Jesus said it like this: "If anyone wishes to be the greatest, let him become servant of all."

So I look for the simple life, which I think is what homesteading is all about. Love your neighbor, and live as free of stress as possible. I personally think that the more a person can shed political baggage, the better off he is.

-- daffodyllady (daffodyllady@yahoo.com), October 27, 2001.

Hi Fred,

Just thought I'd pass along this little story.

A few years ago my hubby and I were renting a farm house from a retired dairy farmer. He and his wife had built a new place just across the barn yard. Real nice people, treated us like family.

I always remember him telling us about his farm hand. This man and his family had escaped the fighting in Laos and somehow made it to the US as refugees with absolutely nothing and unable to speak much English. He came looking for a job and the farmer and his wife took pity on him. The family lived in a trailer on the farm. He was a hard worker and I know that like us they were treated as family. They probably paid no rent and he made not much more than minimum wage. I think they lived there about 12 years and had 3 children. They mentioned that they'd decided to look for a house and the farmer wasn't surprised when one day the man asked if he could sit down and talk to him that evening. The farmer and his wife immediately assumed that he was going to ask to borrow some money for the down payment,or at least a pay raise. They got quite a shock to find that the man wanted to ask their advice. He wanted to know would it be best to pay $45,000 cash for the house or if they should take out a mortgage!!

Pauline NC

-- Pauline (tworooster_farm@altavista.com), October 27, 2001.

If you want to make it to the top you can.Set a goal like when in 5 years I want to be worth $750000 when in 7 years $1000000 and so on.Now for $25 Ill tell you how.

-- bin jr (bin@laden.com), October 28, 2001.

Harold, to answer your comment, I spent nineteen years in a rural federal environment in Kittery, Maine where I progressed from GS-3 to GS-12. I then progressed to GS-13 by taking a promotion to the State Department in Washington, DC where I progressed to GS-15 over the course of five years, changing agencies once. I agree that it is easier to progress in the federal government in a metro environment but it is simply because there are more jobs available and consequently more opportunities for advancement. But, because you change agencies in that environment there is even less chance of getting ahead because you know someone. It is more common to get ahead in the rural environment because someone helped you rather than in the big city where you are just another body. I knew no one at either the State Department or my current agency when I was selected for promotion.

-- Colleen (pyramidgreatdanes@erols.com), October 31, 2001.