During Sunday A. M. Bible study the leader made the comment that,"heaven nor hell have been created yet". My wife (Gail) and I were very confused. We have always thought there was a heaven but that hell had not been created. My wife said to me, how can God create a new heaven and a new earth at the end of the christian age if there isn't an old one now? We would appreciate hearing from you. If you're ever in Fort Pierce, Fl. look us up and we'll go over to the st lucie power plant and watch the fish glow. In Him, Bruce Jordan

-- Anonymous, October 23, 2001

Answers

Bruce,

As best as I can tell from my studies, your teacher was probably correct. I do not believe that either Heaven or Hell (as we normally think of them) exist yet.

I base my ideas mainly on Luke 16:19-31, Luke 23:43, 2 Cor. 12:1-6, 2 Peter 3:10-11, and Rev. chapters 21 & 22. These are about the only verses in Scripture that reference their present existence (and these only vaguely).

Based on the reading of the above verses, I see things thusly:

1) the dead, up until the 2nd coming of Christ, do not go directly to Heaven or Hell. They go to a "holding place" of some sort. The Greek concept of Hades - the holding place of the dead (which is used quite frequently in Scripture), may be the best idea.

2) There is definitely 2 sections to this holding place with an uncrossable chasm between them. One is a place for the Righteous - call it Paradise or Abraham's Bosom (Jesus' & Paul's words)......but I don't think we can call it Heaven yet as we see no new city or streets of gold or illumination by God. The other place is for the wicked - call it Torment or the Pit.....but I don't think one can call it Hell, at least not just yet, as there is no mention of Satan or his demons there until the end.

3) The day is coming (according to Peter) when ALL the elements will be destroyed with intense heat and I must assume that "all" means ALL, including the places holding the dead at this time. Personally I don't see God making a Heaven or Hell now, only to destroy them later & rebuild again.........God is a much better planner than that.

4) Here's another thought, why, in Rev 6:9-11, do the souls of the slain saints cry out? Yes they want Justice done for their murders, but I believe it is written in Ecclesiates that the dead are no longer concerned with the living - so why do they cry about something they not concerned with any longer? Maybe, just maybe, it is because they want peace; they want resolution; they want to enter into the final place of Rest - Heaven (because they're not there yet). Notice the Lord's response to them was basically to wait until the proper time was come (plus they were comforted with White robes until then - just like Lazarus was in "Abraham's Bosom").

With all this said, it is not dogma to me. There is precious little given us on the topic so most of what is taught is little more than speculation on many people's parts. Typically, I prefer to spend my time on the things that are "absolutes" in the Scriptures - things like faith, repentance, baptism, and judgment. Until you get those things down, the "whys" & "wherefores" of Heaven are a moot point.

I Hope I haven't muddied things up too much for you.

-- Anonymous, October 23, 2001

Mark -- some thoughts, or questions, as it were.

1. Where is God now? I understand He is everywhere, but does He "reside" for lack of a better word any place particular?

2. Where is Jesus now? I understand from the Scriptures that he is presently at the "right hand of the father." If so, where might that be?

3. Paul wrote to be absent from this world was to be with the Lord. If the Lord (Jesus) is at the right hand of the Father, and when we die we go to be with the Lord, then won't we be in the presence of God at the time of our death?

Just a couple of questions to get this thread moving along! :)

-- Anonymous, October 23, 2001

Darrell,

Those are 3 good & Related questions. From my diatribe above, I would have to say that the Trinity & the righteous dead would all "reside" in "Paradise" - wherever that actually is. I use the word "reside" very loosely concerning God & Jesus since they are spiritual beings not bound by time & space.

Come to think of it, since the dead do not have their resurrected bodies yet, maybe they too are in a somewhat spaceless, timeless existence as it can only be their spirit that has gone to "paradise". I say that because we all know that their bodies still lie in the ground to date, so their current state must be one of spirit............unless some sort of "temp" body (not mentioned in Scripture) is given us until the final resurrection at Jesus' second coming.

From Jesus' & Paul's words, it is obvious that the Judgment must come at death, since there is a separation of the righteous & wicked in this "holding" stage. If that is the case, I guess that will help "keep the lines down" at the Bema Seat when Jesus returns.....:~)

-- Anonymous, October 25, 2001

I think there is a heaven today (and even perhaps a hell, but nobody is in it yet). But the place where we will finally reside and have our citizenship you would find a large "under construction" sign hanging on.

I heard someone once say that it took God six days to create the world, but Jesus has been working on preparing a place for us for over 2000 years! What a fantastic place it must be!

-- Anonymous, October 27, 2001

"Our Father which art in HEAVEN".

-- Anonymous, November 02, 2001

That's a good thought Sam. But one has to deal with the fact that the Scriptures deal with the word "heaven" in more than one way - not just to the place of final reward.

Often we read of the Kingdom of Heaven or Kingdom of God which Christ established. The proper heurmeneutic of this use is to consider these to be the CHURCH that Christ established - it IS the Kingdom on earth. Therefore to say "Our Father which art in Heaven" could be interpreted to mean he resides in Church, not some heavenly abode.

For that passage a more generic "heavenly" existence (somewhere in another realm or dimension) is probably the best usage of "heaven", since we know God is spirit & not flesh, and does not need a place to be - because He is everywhere.

We, on the other hand, are not God and therefore need some place to be, even after death, to await the coming of our Lord to put everything back in order.

-- Anonymous, November 04, 2001

Mark,

The Holy Bible mentions three types of heaven, the first heaven which is the atmospheric heaven ie. sky, clouds etc. as mentioned in Acts 1:11. The second heaven as in Genesis 22:17 which is the stars, moon and other planets and then of course the third heaven mentioned by Paul in Corinthians 12:2 and another example would be Hebrews 9:24 and Matthew 18:10 where dwells the angels and the redeemed and where is the throne of God.

The Lord's prayer also continues with "hallowed be thy name, thy Kinkdom come, thy will be done on earth as in HEAVEN."

Clearly then heaven exists now, it is a real place and is the place of reward for those who are redeemed. I believe the Kingdom may also as you mentioned be referring to Christ's reign on earth, but heavenly kingdom I believe refers to the third heaven.

-- Anonymous, November 04, 2001

I think that when we are trying to understand spiritual things we have difficulty because we tend to think in physical terms. The whole question presumes that time as we understand it holds for the spiritual realm also. All descriptions of God, heaven, etc, are by nature fautly in that they are finite, but trying to describe that which is not. Our finite little brains simply are incapable of understanding the infinite.

It seems to me that the reason the Bible describes heaven both ways, in the future and in the present is because of the limitations of trying to describe what is not understandable.

My $.02

Richard

-- Anonymous, November 05, 2001

And a very good .02 worth it is!

-- Anonymous, November 05, 2001

thank you who/whom have responded to our question; but i think i need to clarify what we really wish to know. if there is no heaven or hell at the present time, where do the people like my mom and dad, my brother, my wifes parents and sister reside right now? In Him, Bruce Jordan btw we are still treading water from michelle. Her outer bands hit here at high tide.(bummer)

-- Anonymous, November 06, 2001

Horace,

I started thinking about the whole "time" thing several years ago when someone asked me to ponder the meaning of God telling Moses that He is "I AM". In Revelation He says He is the Alpha and Omega, etc. But that is figurative to say that he is before creation, and exists transcendant of creation. But "I AM" is much more profound. In mythology there were gods who said they were and will be, but God simply says "I AM". God is outside of time. Think about this, before anything was created there was God. Only after creation, and only to creation, does time mean anything. Me thinks that everlasting life isn't living foerever in the sense of going on and on and on, but that we come into the presence of God and, as the old hymn says, "time shall be no more." We just are with Him.

I think that this is how God knows all that will happen but there is still free will. God is outside of time. He is omnipresent in space and time. He looks at all things in the present. I AM. He looks at you and Moses simultaneously, just as he sees you and the other 6 Billion of us at the same time. The implications boggle the mind. In John 1 we see that "all things were created" by the the Word. If Jesus could look across all of time before creation He chose to create the world knowing it would mean the cross. And at the moment of your conception, he could look across your whole life, see all the sin you mean He would carry on the cross, and yet He deemed you worthy enough to create you anyway. That you are even here tells you how much He loves you.

As to your basic question. I think as much as we can understand it, our loved ones have gone to be with the Lord. Exactly what that means is beyond what our little brains can comprehend. It is enough for me to know that God's love is beyond me, and He so desires to share that love with His children, unhindered by this fallen world. We can only imagine what it means to come into the fullness of God's love when we cross over to the other side....

my $.02

Richard

-- Anonymous, November 06, 2001